The groundhog day desktop
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| dyfet Aug 27, 2016 11:49 AM EDT |
One real problem I find is that they keep loosing and then rewriting the very same functionality over and over again, often never recovering all the functionality lost before abandoning what they have for the next iteration, which ends up essentially being the same thing. The speed of loss and recovery seems to have also slowed. Icon task bars, which had jump list/action menus, lost this in the Plasma 5 re-write and had not even tried to recover this functionality until Plasma 5.6. This means functionality one depends on gets lost and abandoned. If they were writing something very different, sure, but in essence they seem to simply re-write the same environment in a slightly newer form each time. This relates to the scope of the project, which is far larger than the people they seem to have involved in it at present. Many things and applications end up unmaintained for long periods of time. Important bugs have never addressed even in a decade! They desperately need to learn how to do more by doing less, and focus on improving what they have rather than repeating the same dream starting over again. Much could be learned from how xfce manages change, they could do similar, but executing on it much faster because they do have many more people involved (xfce largely does have a single maintainer...), rather than wasting everyone's time revisiting re-creating the same features over and over again with their clearly limited resources. |
| seatex Aug 27, 2016 5:27 PM EDT |
One of the touted benefits of KDE is there are always 5 or 6 or more ways to do every task, but do users really need that? I think KDE appeals to those who want more more more, whether it is stable or not. And I don't think KDE will ever be "stable" as we normally define it. I personally prefer the clean, focused, far-less bloated XFCE, MATE or Cinnamon. |
| kikinovak Aug 27, 2016 5:33 PM EDT |
+1. I've been a KDE user since 2.4. I loved 3.5.10, trie d to get a grip on 4.x, but nowadays it just feels like a kid that has to be potty-trained all over again every three years. I gave up on it and use Xfce now. |
| penguinist Aug 27, 2016 8:31 PM EDT |
Xfce rules. |
| gus3 Aug 28, 2016 2:17 PM EDT |
Yep. If Xfce is good enough for Grandma, it should be good enough for everyone. (This comment typed and posted from an Xfce desktop owned by a Grandma. ;-) |
| kikinovak Aug 29, 2016 9:59 AM EDT |
Xfce can be nicely beefed up with the Elementary-Xfce icon theme and Elementary's Plank launcher. https://www.microlinux.eu/images/mled/mled_desktop.png |
| 750 Sep 01, 2016 10:15 AM EDT |
The basic problem with KDE is that from 4.0 onwards, the designers got hold of the reigns. |
| jdixon Sep 01, 2016 1:49 PM EDT |
> ...the designers got hold of the reigns. Well, to be fair the designers always have the reins (which is I believe what you meant). It's just that in open source, the users are supposed to be an active participant in the process. Calling your users who try to take that part "toxic" isn't a sign of a good development team. Once that happened, I gave up on KDE. And yes, XFCE is my preferred desktop. Fear the mouse. |
| DrGeoffrey Sep 01, 2016 6:45 PM EDT |
While I understand the sentiment of many posters here, AFAICT only Plasma 4 gives the kind of virtual desktop & activities capabilities that easily allow me to work the varied tasks of my career. Plasma 5 is still a step backward, but my T460s all but demands an up-to-date distribution. And I can find no other virtual desktop manager that allows different widgets on different desktops/activities. Now, it is true, that in many ways these widgets are just lipstick. But, I do find them awfully convenient. Abandoning them to use a File Manager & shortcuts, while possible, is really a step backward. And so my question: Is there an alternative desktop to Plasma that allows for different file access widgets on different virtual desktops/activities? |
| JaseP Sep 02, 2016 1:01 PM EDT |
I have to agree with Dr. Geoffrey,... While I can make a functional system out of XFCE, particularly on lower end machines (including the 64-bit Atom machine I am typing on now), the widgets can be extremely useful. Features like translucency are also valuable (and, yes, I know that XFCE supports translucency now too). I particularly find KDE Connect to be useful in transferring notifications and data back and forth between my Android devices and my PCs. I agree that KDE developers don't listen to their users and that they overtake the plumbing with too much stuff that seems good in concept, but just adds bloat, I just don't get the whole concept of a flat, featureless desktop experience that developers on every platform are trying to foist on us, in the last couple of years... |
| gary_newell Sep 03, 2016 3:49 PM EDT |
If Disney or Nintendo made desktop environments it would be KDE. Lots of bright colours but not much substance underneath |
| DrGeoffrey Sep 03, 2016 5:09 PM EDT |
Yes! KDE Connect is extremely useful. For those who don't like KDE, one of the advantages of Linux is the ability to chose your preferred desktop. Vive la différence! |
| dotmatrix Sep 03, 2016 6:07 PM EDT |
I typically use plain vanilla openbox. I don't even change the background. I try to reserve as many processor cycles as I can for mathematical simulations or compilation. Also... I would like the web much more if it was almost entirely text with in-line clickable graphics and video. Call it "web for readers"... or Gopher. But, then again, I'm probably crazy. |
| DrGeoffrey Sep 03, 2016 9:29 PM EDT |
Quoting:But, then again, I'm probably crazy. I would not say so. You've simply found the best tool for your job. |
| JaseP Sep 04, 2016 12:42 AM EDT |
Quoting: If Disney or Nintendo made desktop environments it would be KDE. Lots of bright colours but not much substance underneath Actually, if anything,... The true statement would be too much substance underneath. The KDE development team has a habit of including "features" that we users never asked for,... like nepumuk and akonadi server. |
| DiBosco Sep 08, 2016 4:39 AM EDT |
KDE is a fabulous desktop that is stable, very useful, very good looking and wipes the floor with any other desktop out there, including OS X and anything Redmond has to offer. It's amazing the nonsense spouted by those still harking back to seven or so years ago when they released version four too soon. XFCE is severely limited and difficult to use compared to the intuitive and super-flexible KDE. Problem is, most people are just Luddites, even in the modern, fast-moving world of computers. Oh, the irony. |
| jdixon Sep 08, 2016 5:53 AM EDT |
> XFCE is severely limited and difficult to use compared to the intuitive and super-flexible KDE. In your opinion, which you're as entitled to as anyone else. > Problem is, most people are just Luddites You may like using software produced by people who insult their users. I'd rather use software produced by people who act like they respect theirs. I guess that could be considered old fashioned. |
| Fettoosh Sep 08, 2016 9:50 AM EDT |
@DiBosco, I fully agree. I have been using KDE since 1999 when I started using Linux. I tested various other desktops but never switched even during the dark says of KDE 4.0 when it was released early for users to test and many just jumped on it without realizing it wasn't really ready for production. One big problem KDE has is that, like you said, some users are Luddites and don't really fully understand the concept of KDE Plasma 5. To me, & many others I believe, KDE made a shift similar and comparable from classic procedural programming to Object Oriented Programming (OOP). KDE is an object where features are attributes, applications are methods, and Activities (not virtual desktops) are children objects. Because of this concept, I would call KDE the Project Oriented Desktop (POD). Unfortunately, not many casual users are benefiting from it yet but it is highly beneficial in business and research environments that are more project (Activity) oriented environments. Yeah, we hear a lot about bloat, slow, crashes and cumbersome, that was true when it was still in development. But the truth is, this switch in concept made KDE 5 now days a lean efficient tool that is as fast if not faster than other DEs, using less memory than ever before, reliable (the desktop never crashed on me) although some apps do crash due to the still on going conversion of applications, and most of all user friendly with many options to configure and tailor. Remember, KDE tailor to all sorts of users and environments and there is something for every one and without forcing it down the throat of anyone. It is up to the creator of any distribution to decide how to tailor it. In regards to insulting users, I think the KDE group are much better than any others in being more receptive to user input and constructive criticism and here. And I also think there are some obnoxious detractor users that need to be stopped from their devious intentions. I should have poked a hornets nest instead. :-) |
| jdixon Sep 08, 2016 11:17 AM EDT |
I'll let the readily available words speak for themselves. From https://www.linux.com/news/what-went-wrong-kde-4-release : "Having worked on KDE 4 for more than three years, KDE developers reacted with understandable anger. In particular, Troy Unrau, best known for his "Road to KDE 4" articles, went so far as to say in his blog, "KDE and open source is not ever obligated to please users. We are not obligated to fix bugs. We are not obligated to implement things that you demand. We are not obligated to provide open forums for you to attack us personally." The last sentence is the only one that's reasonable. The next last has a kernel of truth, but is sorely lacking in either tact or understanding. For further examples, merely check out the chronicles of Ridcully's attempts to keep KDE working as he desired and the responses he received, detailed on this very site. The KDE developers took the attitude (normally associated with proprietary developers like Microsoft) of "We know what's best for you, now take the software we give you and shut up." to a whole new level. I have better things to do in life than deal with such people. Other people are free to disagree. |
| seatex Sep 08, 2016 12:00 PM EDT |
This is where the free market bitch-slaps those who think their users don't matter. The beauty of the free market is it works for BOTH free and non-free software. For non-free, customers and sales revenue are lost. For free, development resources (programmers and monetary contributions) are lost. So, failure to satisfy users hurts both free and non-free projects and erodes their future market potential. Ubuntu Unity, Windows 10, Gnome 3, KDE 4 have all had less than expected reception from the free market because the developers thought they were smarter than their users. Now, look at popularity changes for the Linux DE's currently available. KDE is so advanced, yet is not the most popular Linux DE. No truly accurate way to see the real current numbers, but here is an example from recent history... "Compare the results of LinuxQuestion's Members Choice Awards with the statistics from previous years, and you’ll see that GNOME 3's release cost the desktop as much as half its users. However, the same comparison suggests that KDE is only at three-quarters of its pre-KDE 4 popularity." Good Article - http://www.datamation.com/open-source/gnome-vs-kde-usability-vs.-options.html |
| Fettoosh Sep 08, 2016 4:55 PM EDT |
@JDixon, The extra colon at the end of your link takes you to a whole list of articles, removing it will lead directly to the specific article. I think it is a good idea to change it so others can find it and read the whole article and get a sense of what really went on. To summarize, KDE developer were frustrated and under a lot of pressure from what went on after releasing KDE 4. there were few bad blogs that contained things that shouldn't have, but few bad apples doesn't mean that the whole bushel is bad. That issue was clearly clarified in the issue. The KDE team learned quite a bit and their PR is way much better now. But all of that, in my opinion, doesn't and shouldn't change what a great desktop KDE Plasma really turned out to be. In regards to Ridcully's attempts, I wholeheartedly agree with him and even said so in my comments at the time. But I suggest to read his article about the same subject titled "A KMail Breakthrough." May be his specific KMail issue wasn't on the top of their priorities. In regards to the size of KDE user base, I don't believe that can accurately be determined whether it decreased or increased. But one think I am sure of is that, if user satisfaction is a factor in user base size, MS would have been gone by now. We all know how bad they are in user satisfaction.The fact is, users keep using what they are accustomed to, familiar with, and reasonably enabling them to do what they want done. Most tend to learn how to live with what they already have. |
| gary_newell Sep 08, 2016 4:57 PM EDT |
I don't subscribe to the theory that KDE now performs well. Even on my gaming laptop with all drivers installed it feels blocky compared to Cinnamon or GNOME. I have tried all of the common DEs and KDE is my least favourite. I don't think KDE is helped by the 3rd party widgets. They make the desktop look like Windows when it had that awful active desktop. The whole activities thing is pointless as well. It just isn't required. 4 workspaces is enough. I don't need the extra layer that activities brings and I bet there aren't many people who do. The menu is ok but feels clunky compared to the Cinnamon menu. KDE is slow compared to XFCE, LXDE, LXQT, Enlightenment, MATE and Cinnamon. Compares reasonably well with GNOME and Unity |
| jdixon Sep 08, 2016 9:47 PM EDT |
> The extra colon at the end of your link Hmm, it wasn't intended to be part of the link. Apparently LXer's software thought it was. I've added a space between the link and the colon, which should fix the problem. > The KDE team learned quite a bit and their PR is way much better now. I'm sure it is. But have the underlying attitudes changed? Is it really better to think bad thoughts about your users but simply not voice them? But when there are suitable (and to me, superior) alternatives out there, why should I or anyone else even care whether they've changed or not? |
| Fettoosh Sep 08, 2016 10:02 PM EDT |
@gary_newell, You don't have to subscribe, many others do. You state it feels blocky compared to Cinnamon or GNOME yet you state it compares well with GNOME at the end, please be specific and accurate in your statements. After all, it's just your feelings and probably doesn't mean much to others who feel otherwise. You probably need to give some evidence to your claim of KDE being slower than other desktops. Performance depends on many factors and not easy to accurately measure. If it is your feelings, mine are different. I think you are confusing between "Workspaces/Virtual Desktop/pages/screens/GNOME Activities" & KDE Activities. Many compare them and think they are similar but actually they are very different. KDE Activities are desktop objects with attributes/settings bundled with desktop resources like applications and files. When a particular activity is activated, the desktop changes to its attributes/settings and all menus, applications, files, etc are made available in one click. For instance, consider working in corporate environment on multiple projects and periodically, short term or long term, you switch among them. You bundle all resources & tools of one project in its own one activity. Eventually you end up with a list of activities. All you need to do to switch from one to another is to click on one activity icon and all resource are made available, These Refs. might help Ref. 1 Ref. 2 Ref. 3 |
| Fettoosh Sep 08, 2016 10:18 PM EDT |
The beauty of FOSS is that, users can pick & chose whatever they like and suit them best. No one twisting anybody's arms. I just don't understand the constant bashing every time KDE is in the news. That's all. |
| dotmatrix Sep 08, 2016 10:36 PM EDT |
@jdixon: >Is it really better to think bad thoughts about your users but simply not voice them? Once upon a time I worked as a computer repair technician.... and so... I can truly honestly answer, yes. Yes, it is better to not voice the bad thoughts about your 'users'. A favorite line of mine: "Business would be so much smoother without all the customers." |
| jdixon Sep 09, 2016 8:32 PM EDT |
> You probably need to give some evidence to your claim of KDE being slower than other desktops. Why don't you give the evidence that it's as fast instead? I'd guess that if you have a modern quad core system with 16 GB of memory, then you're probably not going to notice a lot of speed difference between XFCE and KDE. But I'd also guess that if you have an older single core system with 1 GB of memory, you're probably going to notice a significant difference. > Yes, it is better to not voice the bad thoughts about your 'users'. Better for who, dotmatrix? The user or the business? It's undoubtedly better for the business. But how much better is it for the customer? The interaction is obviously more pleasant, but how much better is the service? Wouldn't the customer be better served by a business which didn't think them in the first place? |
| Fettoosh Sep 10, 2016 11:19 AM EDT |
@JDixson, >I'd guess that if you have a modern quad core system with 16 GB of memory, ... I wish I had such a machine, I only have an HP Compaq 6910p with 2 x Intel Core Duo CPU T7500 @2.2 GHz and 3 GB memory. It's old but not a bad machine at all. You are right, KDE needs more resources and it would be slow on less resourceful machines. But now days, most users have a lot more resourceful computers than mine. |
| mbaehrlxer Sep 10, 2016 2:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:how much better is it for the customer? The interaction is obviously more pleasant as someone who has lived a few places, (europe, USA, china, to name a few) i can tell you that the pleasantness of a sales or service interaction makes all the difference. greetings, eMBee. |
| jdixon Sep 10, 2016 2:59 PM EDT |
> You are right, KDE needs more resources and it would be slow on less resourceful machines. See, we agree on something. There is hope for the world. :) As you note, it's really hard to quantify performance. Every person will evaluate it somewhat differently. The two machines are listed are the ends of the spectrum. Where the line is drawn as to what's best for any machine in the middle will vary widely. > But now days, most users have a lot more resourceful computers than mine. I don't know about most, but a significant percentage at least. Refurbished machines that good or better are readily available for what even I consider reasonable prices. Oh, and I missed this comment of yours earlier: " I just don't understand the constant bashing every time KDE is in the news. That's all." KDE 3 aficionados execpted KDE 4 to be usable and an upgrade to what they were using. It was neither. Teh initial release was extremely buggy and limited, and it was a complete change from KDE 3. Their complaints were ignored and finally they were called names. Do you really expect them to fsimply orgive and forget? Now, in my case, I'm merely an outside observer, as my preferred desktop for the whole event was XFCE. But I really don't care for developers who call their users names in public. As i said, I wrote the KDE dev's off completely after that and resolved never to touch their product if I could help it. |
| jdixon Sep 10, 2016 3:01 PM EDT |
> i can tell you that the pleasantness of a sales or service interaction makes all the difference. For equivalent levels of quality, yes. But it can't make up for a poor product. |
| CFWhitman Sep 12, 2016 2:48 PM EDT |
If I had to take a guess about Gary's seemingly contradictory statements in his last post, I'd say that he probably meant to type MATE at the beginning rather than GNOME. I don't have anything against KDE, but I've never used it as a regular thing. This is probably because every time I've tried it for a little while, it felt sluggish compared to the other desktop environments and window managers I have used regularly at one time or another (Xfce, LXDE, Fluxbox, IceWM, Openbox with a panel). I will probably continue to give it a go occasionally just to continue to have some idea of what it's like. I admit that I'm guilty of not even bothering to do that with GNOME or Unity. |
| mbaehrlxer Sep 13, 2016 12:20 AM EDT |
Quoting:For equivalent levels of quality, yes. But it can't make up for a poor product. that depends, if i use buggy software, and the support and service is friendly and helpful every time i run into an issue, then that is preferable to using software that is less buggy, but every time i do run into an issue (which doesn't even need to be a bug), i get called an idiot, and i don't get any help solving the problem. there is of course a limit in how poor a product can get before service and support can't make up for it, but it's not absolute in that the quality would always trump other concerns. greetings, eMBee. |
| jdixon Sep 13, 2016 2:11 AM EDT |
> ...and the support and service is friendly and helpful every time i run into an issue, A product with which any problems are rapidly fixed isn't considered a poor product by most people, even if it does have some problems. :) But this is obviously a case where YMMV. Customer service, like performance, is subjective. |
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