I am always amazed....
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Ridcully Sep 04, 2015 3:06 AM EDT |
...at the lengths Winfans will go to justify their use of the OS. I began reading this article with the idea that I'd get some truth. However when Bogdan Popa began to tell me that Linux was hard to use I exploded. Of course it's different, but it is NOT harder to use; in fact I now believe that many Linux desktop distributions are easier to use than Microsoft - and certainly far more secure. Win8 in particular, which Bogdan professes to like, is an absolute schtinker in my opinion. I have had to use it for a project, but the ONLY way I could make it work for me was to force a piece of software onto it that made it operate the same as Win7. "The terminal is still the go-to option for experienced users and it’s indeed the best way to work with Linux"....oh come ON Bogdan......I have been using SuSE/openSUSE Linux for 15 years.....I have not gone into command line mode for over 3 years. At least we do have an admission that Win10 IS actually sending all that information back to Redmond, and frankly I object vehemently at such invasion of anyone's privacy. As for the "Mr Average" not knowing how to use Linux, has anyone ever bothered to inform Bogdan that the millions upon millions of Android phones are all running Linux ? And that Android is now "the" OS on smartphones and is outselling and outclassing Windows in every direction ? The article is worth reading, if only to grasp the incredible convolutions resorted to by Winfans to justify the use of that utterly disgusting piece of software - well, that's my opinion anyway. "Know your enemy" by knowing how he thinks.....Sometimes it's pretty horrible to go there. Oh yes......obliquely he refers to Munich. From what I have seen, the problems are not that Linux is hard to use, but rather there is a core of dedicated Windows users that are refusing to work with any other OS or even trying to learn how to use it......One is almost tempted to ask whether or not they ever purchase a new car and have to learn new locations for some of the controls ? Same difference to me. There........now I'll get down off me soapbox. |
| nmset Sep 04, 2015 7:39 AM EDT |
If you don't come to Linux, Linux won't come to you. Forget these fanboys with their toys. |
| seatex Sep 04, 2015 9:16 AM EDT |
This just shows us how WinFanBoys, like their AppleFanBoys brotheren, will defend anything their shepherds do, even when all the other sheeple begin to get alarmed by their shepherd's treatment and start to wonder if the shepherd is working with the wolf (NSA). |
| CFWhitman Sep 04, 2015 9:54 AM EDT |
A lot of the objections I have heard from users in Munich were about not having administrative rights rather than really about not having Windows. |
| nmset Sep 04, 2015 11:00 AM EDT |
The obvious comment would be : I doubt they ever had administrative rights with Windows. So this argument of theirs is moot. |
| DiBosco Sep 04, 2015 11:03 AM EDT |
This line: "First and foremost, Linux is not as user-friendly as Windows is, no matter who, what, and when says it. " particularly hacked me off. Every now and again I have to go back to Windows to please a client and I'm constantly amazed what a poor experience it is compared to Linux. Just the other day having to install an app where Linux installed all the requisite dependencies hammered this home; with Windows you had to search the web to get the relevant add-ons. Then there's Dolphin vs Windows Explorer. It amazes me that Windows users can cope with such an abysmal file explorer. Then there's the need for anti-virus, stopping Winrot by defrag and registry clean-outs, slower machines for the same hardware etc etc. The list goes on and on and just shows how much better Linux is. I utterly detest when I have to go back to Windows. They dress this garbage up as fact. Pfffft. |
| JaseP Sep 04, 2015 11:33 AM EDT |
Quoting: They dress this garbage up as fact. Pfffft. Wasn't it Vladimir Lenin who said that a lie told often enough becomes the truth??? MS is in good company with its PR strategy... |
| mbaehrlxer Sep 04, 2015 12:29 PM EDT |
windows got a lot easier to use, ever since git for windows includes a bash emulation... greetings, eMBee. |
| notbob Sep 04, 2015 12:31 PM EDT |
I know I'm always amazed when I see ppl throwing out such claims as, "millions upon millions of Android phones are all running Linux". Sorry, but I consider Android to be about as Linux-y as I consider OSX to be Unix-y. IOW.... NOT!! |
| CFWhitman Sep 04, 2015 1:36 PM EDT |
Well, the users who complained in Munich wanted to be able to install software, which is what they were apparently used to with their old Windows laptops. It's not that uncommon for laptop users do get local administrative rights in Windows so that they can install software since they use their laptops away from their desks at times. Of course the issue isn't really directly related to Windows vs. Linux. |
| helios Sep 04, 2015 3:31 PM EDT |
I am sorely tempted...but the time window is past. I doubt if anyone would see it now, nor would many care. "First and foremost, Linux is not as user-friendly as Windows is, no matter who, what, and when says it." Would have been best answered with: I can see if I can find any number of hundreds of 12 year old children that have used Linux since the age of 8 or so, they would gladly tutor you if you are having trouble using Linux. Their prices are reasonable as well. I am working in the field today and only have phone for communication. If anyone wants to post that in the offending article, you may feel free to do so. |
| mbaehrlxer Sep 04, 2015 4:13 PM EDT |
notbob: let's be honest, OSX is several times more Unix-y than Android is Linux-y. cfwhitman: yes, it's not uncommon, but in one of the articles about the latest munich issue it was explicitly mentioned that they would not get admin permissions on windows either. and for that matter, installing programs on linux without root access can be done for just about any application if you know how to do it. installing skype without root for example is rather easy. download it, unpack into your home directory, find the executable in the file-browser, double click and run it. yay! i am not suggesting that this is what they should have done, i am just saying that this is something that is almost always possible in linux, while on windows it rarely works. do you want a 20-pound iron-ball to go with that chain? greetings, eMBee. |
| Ridcully Sep 04, 2015 5:46 PM EDT |
Like it or not, notbob, Android IS Linux. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system) I will accept that Android is meant for mobiles, but seem to recall from my recent reading that there are Android PCs around now as well. And if the kernel is Linux, then Android IS Linux. I don't use a smartphone, so I haven't been exposed to Android in any way. But I remain unshakeable in the belief that if you use Android, you are using a Linux OS. It may not be the same interface as found in a PC running Redhat, Fedora, openSUSE, Ubuntu, etc. etc., but it is very firmly a Linus OS ! |
| penguinist Sep 04, 2015 6:04 PM EDT |
I like to differentiate operating systems by naming both their user space and their kernels, so we have: Gnu/Linux Android/Linux Chrome/Linux and then we also have: Windows/WinNT iOS/freeBSD What have I missed? |
| jdixon Sep 04, 2015 6:35 PM EDT |
> Well, the users who complained in Munich wanted to be able to install software, which is what they were apparently used to with their old Windows laptops Of course the software they want to install probably isn't available for Linux in any case. |
| BernardSwiss Sep 04, 2015 6:56 PM EDT |
> Like it or not, notbob, Android IS Linux. But for most users, that's only true in roughly the same way as it would be for a Windows VM on a Linux host. I have an Android tablet, myself, and I do like it much better than a Windows or iOS device -- but it often feels not much more free and open and flexible than the iOS or Windows devices. There's a lot of unnecessary hassle -- it's not nearly as bad as those others, but I still find myself having to fight or evade the OS for control over my experience and my data. And after all... isn't that the larger part of why FDroid, CyanogenMod and similar projects even exist? |
| BernardSwiss Sep 04, 2015 7:00 PM EDT |
> Well, the users who complained in Munich wanted to be able to install software, which is what they were apparently used to with their old Windows laptops. I get the impression that it's actually about fostering a political issue to stir up public opinion against the majority party, than about any supposed problems with the technology. |
| Ridcully Sep 04, 2015 10:48 PM EDT |
I'm happy to stand corrected on my understandings of Limux and certainly I now have two good alternative opinions. Thankyou both BernardSwiss and CFWhitman. Something similar is here in so far as all Federal and State software has been developed so that it ONLY runs on Windows.....Vendor lock-in with a vengeance. I'd also tend to agree very firmly with your last statement directly above BernardSwiss.....I haven't run across that aspect myself, but it is just the sort of puerile behaviour politicians get up to based on what I see here in Australia. I'd also be happy to agree with you on Android BernardSwiss, and that's without ever touching the OS. The article I quoted above in Wikipedia says two things: sure, it's Linux at the kernel level, but it's Google developed and developed especially for mobiles - and while I am happy to use the Chrome browser, I'd be a little cautious over just what restrictions Google has placed in the Android overlay. Whatever, Android by all accounts does not resemble what I see each time I use my laptop and reach KDE....but what the heck......Android's still Linux at its core, not Windows.....and that thought remains very satisfying every time I see a smartphone in use. Our Telstra shops often don't stock Winphones, there is so little call for them - or that was certainly frequently the situation earlier this year. I suspect Penguinist has nailed the best way of dealing with all these different OS's and their kernels. |
| gus3 Sep 06, 2015 1:12 PM EDT |
Linux is user-friendly. It's just choosy about its friends. Unlike the social disease that is Windows. |
| Ridcully Sep 06, 2015 6:54 PM EDT |
gus3 .......that's a CLASSIC......can I have permission to use it ? If I can type it without laughing ? |
| gus3 Sep 08, 2015 11:52 AM EDT |
The first part is quoted by ESR in "The Art of Unix Programming." The second part just... well... made sense as a follow-on. You may repeat it to your heart's content. |
| CFWhitman Sep 08, 2015 1:41 PM EDT |
Often when people say "Linux" they are talking about the operating system that some have suggested be called GNU/Linux. In that sense, Android is not Linux. Android is another Linux based operating system, but what really makes it different than GNU/Linux is that it uses an incompatible C library. That is, you can either run a GNU system on top of a Linux kernel or an Android system, but you can't run both in the same root directory. You need to have separate root directories to run both. Basically, everything above the kernel is different and incompatible. |
| jdixon Sep 08, 2015 1:45 PM EDT |
> That is, you can either run a GNU system on top of a Linux kernel or an Android system, but you can't run both in the same root directory. So you could, in theory, chroot an Android system within a working Linux system. That would be an interesting exercise. Way too much work though. |
| nmset Sep 08, 2015 2:01 PM EDT |
>Way too much work though. Not really. Try 'Linux Deploy' from Play Store, together with a VNC Android app. I use this combo at work, just awesome. Started that after a hint from CFWhitman some 2 or 3 years ago, many thanks. |
| gus3 Sep 08, 2015 2:02 PM EDT |
Okay, I'll bite. Android executables are just like Java bytecode executables are just like Perl executables are just like Python executables are just like LLVM executables are just like Scheme executables are just like ELF executables. The system knows which loader/linker/interpreter to invoke from the image itself (99 times out of 100, anyway). Why couldn't the Dalvik interpreter sit side-by-side with /lib/ld-linux.so, and be invoked by the system automatically when an Android executable is invoked? |
| penguinist Sep 08, 2015 8:48 PM EDT |
gus3: you make good points with your suggestion. I think maybe the difficult part would be to get the non-android half of that combination to recognize and use the android windowing environment. Having said that, perhaps what you propose is realizable. There are basically two parts to the problem, invokation: and as you point out that should be a matter of running the elf executable user interaction: and that part seems a bit more of a challenge. Maybe someone else has a clear idea on that part. |
| CFWhitman Sep 09, 2015 9:55 AM EDT |
gus3 In theory, there is no reason you couldn't have a Dalvik or Art virtual machine run on top of a conventional Linux system. However, you would have to port Dalvik or Art to GNU/Linux to do this (in theory, you could port Dalvik or Art to Windows or another operating system as well). Perl and Python interpreters have been ported to Linux and several different other operating systems (these languages in practice function more like Java than pure scripting languages). Similarly, the Java VM has been ported to many operating systems. LLVM is a compiler, and executables from it are operating system specific, though of course it exists for Linux and can compile programs for Linux. Scheme is an interpreted language, and has a Linux interpreter. ELF is a binary file format, which is a bit different. It's more about knowing how to read the files than knowing how to run them. So Perl, Python, Java, and Scheme all have some sort of interpreter that has been compiled for the GNU/Linux C library, and LLVM compiled executables have been compiled for the GNU/Linux C library. The normal Dalvik or Art interpreter has been compiled for the Android C library. Basically, if the kernel is the operating system engine, the C library is the transmission, and you can't have two transmissions hooked up at the same time (in the same root directory). So you would need Dalvik or Art compiled to run with the GNU/Linux C library to run it in the same root directory as GNU/Linux. In practice, some apps have parts that run at lower levels than the VM for performance reasons. Of course, Android exists for x86 and MIPS, so apps like those won't run on those systems without some emulation going on (which Android x86 definitely does). In fact, there is a proprietary port of Dalvik to GNU/Linux which is used by Jolla. Now if there would only be an open source one, we could run Android apps in our Linux systems. As penguinist refers to, there might be some logistical issues, but I think they would be minor. The big issue is having the virtual machine ported. |
| JaseP Sep 09, 2015 6:11 PM EDT |
Quoting: As penguinist refers to, there might be some logistical issues, but I think they would be minor. The big issue is having the virtual machine ported. It's a little more complicated than that, I'm afraid... The Davlik VM makes certain assumptions about the underlying Linux architecture. The Android API is written against that kernel (and is changing all the time). This is part of the reason that the Google ARC Welder app for Chome browsers can't run all Android apps. |
| CFWhitman Sep 10, 2015 8:52 AM EDT |
You're talking about issues such as I was referring to in this paragraph: "In practice, some apps have parts that run at lower levels than the VM for performance reasons. Of course, Android exists for x86 and MIPS, so apps like those won't run on those systems without some emulation going on (which Android x86 definitely does)." When I said what you quoted I was talking about issues like whether apps would run inside windows or full screen, how the mouse would work, etc. |
| JaseP Sep 10, 2015 10:53 AM EDT |
@ CFWhitman: Until you have coded for Android (as I have), you really don't grasp the difference that Android has from a standard Linux environment. Android is to Linux as iOS is to BSD. They have abstracted so much of what the OS does that it really is a different system. It's more pronounced than the differences between GTK and QT. In a modern GNU/Linux, you can run GTK and QT stuff side-by-side. That wasn't the case 15 years ago, when I started using Linux. Back then, if you wanted to run a GTK app versus a QT app, you had to switch from Gnome to KDE (log out and log back in, in the other environment). Android is much like that. They abstract so much of what the OS does (like talk to hardware), that it would take an effort similar to what RedHat did to integrate the environments. I'm not saying that you're wrong. What I'm saying is that it would be a monumental effort to do it. It IS worth doing, by the way,... Just as it is worth bringing Chrome/Chromium into the fold the same way. I would be particularly interested in adapting Chrome's graphical system, so that you could run a Chrome/Android/GTK/QT compatible environment. That way, a GNU/Linux system would be virtually unlimited in what it could run,... Android Apps, Chrome Apps, GTK (Gnome, XFCE, Etc.) Apps, QT (KDE, et al.) Apps, Windows Apps (via Wine), Containers, VMs,... The barriers would come down in much the way that was intended with Java, originally... |
| Fettoosh Sep 10, 2015 1:32 PM EDT |
: Shashlik - Android Applications on Real Linux, there is a video there. This might be of interest Original Request News about it Discussions 1 Discussions 2 |
| carling Sep 13, 2015 4:03 PM EDT |
Replying to Ridcully's
I'm always amazed
Quote _ Oh yes......obliquely he refers to Munich. From what I have seen, the problems are not that Linux is hard to use, but rather there is a core of dedicated Windows users that are refusing to work with any other OS or even trying to learn how to use it......One is almost tempted to ask whether or not they ever purchase a new car and have to learn new locations for some of the controls ? Same difference to me. The latest news is >>>> Munich now a major contributor to open source The city of Munich is a major contributor to free and open source projects, sending bugfixes to upstream developers, making available software solutions and sharing best practices and technical information. In August, Munich IT staff members shared the city’s accomplishments with the community of Debian developers, one of the main free software distributions. Source from https://joinup.ec.europa.eu/node/145626 |
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