The attacks and vitriol are totally over the top
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| mrider Nov 17, 2014 5:09 PM EDT |
I use Debian Stable on my computers. I'm not even slightly happy about the fact that SystemD appears to be slated to be included in the next version of Debian, and most likely I will move on because of that. Pretty obviously, I choose my GNU/Linux version with the idea that someone else can fall on the sword so that I can have a tested system. I think where Debian is going is contrary to that, and I will not indirectly support those actions through use of SystemD. I'll happily revisit that thought at some point in the distant future when SystemD has been thoroughly vetted and has been battle tested. And please, do not give me the old refrain "it works on my computer...", because I don't care what works on your computer. Having said that, I have to say that the attacks and vitriol are totally over the top. It's sad (but sadly not surprising) that Mr. Heen has had to quit his role as SystemD developer. I wish him well! And I wish a pox on those that drove him from what he was doing! |
| JaseP Nov 17, 2014 5:14 PM EDT |
I don't see Debian as having a choice about adopting systemd,... Systemd has made its way into so many other things, and so many other projects have been merged into it, that it is a forgone conclusion that if you want certain packages in your distribution, you're going to need systemd. I like it about as much as any other nay-sayers... But, I accept that it is the inevitable. What isn't inevitable is how pervasive the systemd feature creep is. What systemd needs now, is more developers who are diametrically opposed to the feature creep that Poettering has introduced... THAT'S why Heen leaving is a bad thing (even though I don't know about his philosophical position on Poettering and/or systemd). |
| Steven_Rosenber Nov 17, 2014 5:23 PM EDT |
Much like PulseAudio before it, the pro-SystemD contingent should make a case for why it's better than the alternatives. And even if that case *has been made* in the recent or by now distant past, it's a very good idea to restate it early and often. |
| mrider Nov 17, 2014 5:40 PM EDT |
Quoting:Much like PulseAudio before it, the pro-SystemD contingent should make a case for why it's better than the alternatives.I don't really want to devolve into another "why we Iike/hate SystemD" discussion. But, I agree with that 100%. I will state this one more time, and then I'm done with this part of the debate. I will not respond to anyone either pro or con regarding the next paragraph, because I'm just done with this. But: I do not object to SystemD being developed, and I see no reason that those that want to use it shouldn't have their way. That's fine by me. What bugs me is that the SystemD proponents aren't happy just having it on their computer. No, they intend on bludgeoning everyone else until we all have SystemD. Why do you consider it your mission in life to make sure I fall in line? I'm not telling you what to do, why do you feel it's okay to tell me? Why is that so hard to understand? |
| gus3 Nov 17, 2014 6:36 PM EDT |
Free to use. Free to examine. Free to change. Free to share changes. But that first one also implies "free to avoid." |
| flufferbeer Nov 17, 2014 8:46 PM EDT |
mrider, >> What bugs me is that the SystemD proponents aren't happy just having it on their computer. No, they intend on bludgeoning everyone else until we all have SystemD. Why do you consider it your mission in life to make sure I fall in line? I'm not telling you what to do, why do you feel it's okay to tell me? Why is that so hard to understand? Seems to me like History is very telling here. Marie Antoinette was attributed to telling the common peasants "Let them eat cake" in mid-to-late 18th Century France. Lennart Pottering and his local confedirate devs can now tell the common end-users "Let them use SystemD", from Germany, less than a quarter of a millenium later! 2c |
| Steven_Rosenber Nov 17, 2014 9:27 PM EDT |
Here lies the rub: There is no money to be made from a Linux distribution unless your company is named Red Hat. And that company is down with SystemD. If somehow there is a financial reason for another company to offer an operating system free of SystemD, that will most assuredly happen. And if the army of volunteers needed to produce a new distribution free of SystemD comes together, it will happen without the financial incentive. So let's see how this all pans out. |
| jdixon Nov 17, 2014 10:04 PM EDT |
> There is no money to be made from a Linux distribution unless your company is named Red Hat. It's my understanding that Slackware has always made money. Admittedly not on the scale Red Hat does, but there's plenty of room for small companies. |
| Steven_Rosenber Nov 18, 2014 1:27 AM EDT |
Quoting:It's my understanding that Slackware has always made money. Admittedly not on the scale Red Hat does, but there's plenty of room for small companies. I hope so. |
| hughesjr Nov 18, 2014 7:13 AM EDT |
Most of these Linux versions are free and they are completely open source. If you don't like systemd, then you have the option of joining like minded people and code your own alternative or pick one that doesn't use systemd. Keep in mind that using Gnome and network manager (among others) will mean using systemd in the future. Either use what the developers put out or fork it. I am a member of the CentOS team and I can tell you that it is much harder than people think to maintain a Linux Distribution. I have been doing it for ten years.. 8 of those years I did CentOS with no financial incentive other than I needed it in my current job. I spent many unpaid hours helping CentOS be one of the most used Linux Distros in the world. It can be done. Put your money and time where your mouth is and join a group to change an operating system to be what you want it to be or pick one and use it for free. But all the personal attacks are over the top. People can volunteer to make a non systemd distro available. Will they do it? |
| me1010 Nov 18, 2014 11:12 AM EDT |
@hughesjr: Agree. @others: Breaking my no comment on systemd pledge... no takers anyway -- and will post donation proof to GNU Octave at a later date. Show of hands... Who has read The Linux Programming Interface? No? If not, then report on the technical problems or non-POSIX behavior of systemd after you do. Let me know if systemd is actually any less POSIX compliant than sysvinit or the Linux kernel itself. Here's where you can find a free copy... http://www.it-ebooks.info/book/2014/ And here's a brief wikipedia entry... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linux_kernel_interfaces It's also important to remember that systemd is designed to be integrated with the Linux kernel and only the Linux kernel. In essence, Poettering and the systemd crowd have noted that the Linux kernel has already diverged from other *nix-like kernels. And they see great advantages in bringing those improvements to the common Linux user. The development and use of systemd is market driven. Most *nix-like OS users are now using the Linux kernel, and systemd is being made to match... It's a natural development of an open market economy of FOSS -- coalescing around one set of components. I doubt very much that any attempt to pull away from systemd will be successful... it's really going to be an all or nothing -- break backward compatibility type change. |
| linux4567 Nov 18, 2014 12:36 PM EDT |
> It's a natural development of an open market economy of FOSS No it's not, it's Redhat telling the rest of the Linux community: F*ck you we don't need you anymore, it has been nice becoming a billion dollar company off the back of your hard work but now we make the rules and if you don't like them we don't give a f*ck. That's what it is really, Poettering is just the punching ball, in reality it's Redhat showing the stinky finger to rest of the Linux world. Redhat is no longer the poster child for the opensource world, it has become an evil corporation like Google, Apple and all the other moneygrabbing corporations out there. |
| me1010 Nov 18, 2014 1:02 PM EDT |
@linux4567: And this is the problem... You've attached the same false conspiracy theory to systemd that has resulted in the Debian maintainer to abandon maintaining the package. There is no conspiracy. Tinfoil hats are not needed. There's nothing for RH to gain from implementing systemd versus any other init. RH makes it money selling service contracts to server farms, not from the base OS. You should take off the foil hat and read some of Poetterings thoughts on how to reconfigure GNU/Linux distros to support secure sandboxing of desktop apps... nothing whatsoever in there about servers or RH allegiance. Your anger is much misplaced... and thus the OP choice of title for the thread. After reading some of Poetterings thoughts and reviewing sections of The Linux Programming Interface, it's clear that current methods employed in GNU/Linux distro-land are quite horribly broken as far as security and advanced features are concerned. |
| linux4567 Nov 18, 2014 1:57 PM EDT |
@me1010: it's not a conspiracy, it's a fact. Poettering is a Redhat employee writing systemd during office hours (well he probably doesn't stick to 9-5 but that's his choice) because Redhat managment wants him to do this. Systemd is NOT a private project by some hobby developers, it's a Redhat project, ask Redhat, they will gladly confirm this to you. |
| Fettoosh Nov 18, 2014 2:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:Redhat is no longer the poster child for the opensource world, it has become an evil corporation like Google, Apple and all the other moneygrabbing corporations out there. Those who didn't see that coming don't know how corporations work. You don't expect them to invest money supporting developers without getting return on their investments, do you? We should show a little understanding and gratitude for keeping everything open giving others choice to modify and use it in any way they choose. Users can give feedback, recommendations, and wish lists but don't have complete control of what developers choose to do. Developers/investors are free do whatever they like just like users have the choice to use or refuse to use what ever they like. Like hughesjr said, Quoting:Put your money and time where your mouth is and join a group to change an operating system to be what you want it to be or pick one and use it for free. |
| me1010 Nov 18, 2014 2:14 PM EDT |
@linux4567: The fact that RH employs many of the systemd programmers and architecture directors does not mean that RH is telling the FOSS Linux community: Quoting: F*ck you we don't need you anymore In fact it's in RH's best interest to try to get other distros to *not* adopt systemd. That way, they alone would have the advantage of better end user application space security as well as advanced features because of tighter integration with the Linux kernel. systemd is FOSS. And so by definition, it - by itself - is no advantage to RH or any other company. The wide adoption of systemd means, by definition, that Enterprise RH will not have a technical advantage over Joe's Garage Special Edition GNU/Linux distro.... In short, not only is the argument that RH is the big bad guy wrong, unproven, and clearly blown way out of proportion -- it also doesn't make logical sense when applied to the basic rules of business... i.e. Business A has a technology that Business B doesn't have, so Business A seeks to gain as much financial gain through exclusive rights to that technology. However, logical argument will never change hearts. Only through humble education and thorough dispassionate investigation will result in a true evaluation... And my bet is that very few of the anti-systemd, anti-RH crowd have done either.... |
| penguinist Nov 18, 2014 2:18 PM EDT |
As a Red Hat (Fedora, RHEL, and CentOS) user, I have very much appreciated that they have kept their corporate culture in close alignment with the values of FOSS. RH is still our friend imho. |
| gus3 Nov 18, 2014 2:44 PM EDT |
"May G-d protect me from my friends. My enemies I can handle on my own." |
| jdixon Nov 18, 2014 2:49 PM EDT |
> Redhat is no longer the poster child for the opensource world, it has become an evil corporation like Google, It always was. Companies exist to make money for their owners. Red Hat thinks their customer base will find benefits to systemd. They don't care what the rest of us think, and haven't since the day they dropped Red Hat Linux for RHEL. |
| Bob_Robertson Nov 18, 2014 3:19 PM EDT |
=== Choose your allies carefully: it's highly unlikely that you'll ever be held morally, legally, or historically accountable for the actions of your enemies. === It is moral weakness, rather than villainy, that accounts for most of the evil in the universe -- and feeble-hearted allies, far rather than your most powerful enemies, who are likeliest to do you an injury you cannot recover from. === Know when to give up a lost cause. Anyone who needs to be persuaded to be free, doesn't deserve to be. === From L. Neil Smith, Tactical Reflections |
| linuxscreenshot Nov 18, 2014 3:26 PM EDT |
I downloaded PC-BSD 10.1 today :) |
| nmset Nov 18, 2014 3:49 PM EDT |
"allies... enemies..." coming too often ! Calm down everybody ! There's no war, look through the window, it's peace out there. |
| mrider Nov 18, 2014 3:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:I downloaded PC-BSD 10.1 today :) So are you going to change your nick to "bsdscreenshot"? |
| linuxscreenshot Nov 18, 2014 4:03 PM EDT |
Quoting:So are you going to change your nick to "bsdscreenshot"? Deciding between pcbsdscreenshot and ghostbsdscreeshot :) |
| JaseP Nov 18, 2014 4:14 PM EDT |
@me1010: I am/have been reading The Linux Programming Interface. There's nothing in there that gives one cause to think that the Linux kernel is some maverick against POSIX standards. If you are talking about POSIX versus System V standards,... That's very different. The book even says that all modern *nix implementations have nonstandard extensions to POSIX standards. Poettering's blog is one part actual issues with Linux and 2 parts justification/rationalization for doing what he's doing with systemd. In his discussion (rant?!) about NFS and file locking, he is almost indicting the NFS file system as much as he is Linux kernel operations. File locking in POSIX operating systems is advisory (and mandatory locks, really aren't mandatory), and programmers are to know this when coding. TLPI even says in Chapter 55.4, "In summary, the use of mandatory locks is best avoided." It's as if Poettering wants to reinvent the entire operating system. If he wants to,... FINE,... He should just do it by writing his own kernel. If one takes his writings to their inevitable conclusion, he will end up breaking a ton of currently working Linux programs by changing fundamental functionality (as part of pulling in logins, udev, mounting processes, etc., etc.). @linuxscreenshot: Tell us how it works out... Keep in mind that you might not want to get too cozy with Gnome on PC-BSD, with all the dependencies on systemd coming down the pike on later 3.x versions... |
| mrider Nov 18, 2014 4:24 PM EDT |
Quoting:Tell us how it works out... I agree. I'm not in a huge hurry, because it'll be a while until Wheezy runs out of support, but unless the river is diverted, I'm going elsewhere at that point. I have to wonder how long Patrick will be able to hold out, so *BSD is definitely on the radar screen. Quoting:Keep in mind that you might not want to get too cozy with Gnome on PC-BSD, with all the dependencies on systemd coming down the pike on later 3.x versions... I would amend that to say G* programs, since it's likely that the dependencies will continue to spread. |
| me1010 Nov 18, 2014 4:44 PM EDT |
@JaseP: The point is: There is no effective POSIX standard because: Quoting:all modern *nix implementations have nonstandard extensions to POSIX standards So, some of systemd is POSIX compliant and some isn't. There's nothing inherently un-UNIX-y about abandoning some sections of POSIX. In fact, that's pretty much the 'standard' -- abandon what doesn't work within the 'new' paradigm. a.out versus elf anyone? HAL versus udev anyone? might you that udev is current and is somewhat non-POSIX compliant. I truly believe that many of the more vocal systemd opponents are blustering about things that have been happening all along within the *nix world. The idea that everything will always be constant is absurd. The idea that free loaders have a fundamental 'right' to be heard and to be catered to so that no one needs to abandon his or her way of using software as a free loader is absurd. Red Hat has released systemd as FOSS. It could easily have played the part of the 'evil empire' and patented portions of it... applied for systemd to be an ISO or IEEE or insert other standard -- which means pay the money to the 'right' organization a.k.a. OOXML. And then merge udev and company as mandatory plugable modules so that they don't 'mess up' the patented code portion. And then lobbied hard to get other GNU/Linux distros to use systemd in order to extract a 'reasonable' license fee for the patented technology. Buuuttt.... they didn't... no... they released the code as FOSS. All of it... much unlike the 'evil' corporations listed. So... Please define for me a single actual business mechanism where RH benefits from wide adoption of FOSS systemd code incorporated in direct competitors products. For example, I use Linode and run Debian. Debian switches to systemd. How does RH benefit? |
| gus3 Nov 18, 2014 5:14 PM EDT |
RedHat benefits by having a large, independent project to which they can point and say, "See? $OTHER_DISTRO likes systemd! How bad can it be?" Remember, M$ Windows had the same claims behind it. For a while. |
| me1010 Nov 18, 2014 5:27 PM EDT |
@gus3: oh man! That's great! Now I can really see that Red Hat is playing the big bad 'evil' corporation by developing systemd and releasing it as FOSS-ware for anyone including its own competition to use at will without any sort of payment whatsoever. So... I do believe that's a total strike out on the Red Hat is evil card. Don't play it again unless there's something somewhere concrete that can be pointed to. The only viable argument against systemd is the dependency growth and code merge with other projects. And while this has happened a little, nearly all non-code merged dependencies are optional dependencies to enable certain kinds of use cases. |
| flufferbeer Nov 18, 2014 5:37 PM EDT |
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| me1010 Nov 18, 2014 6:04 PM EDT |
So that's it?!? Red Hat, a billion dollar company which created one of the first GNU/Linux distros and currently the only GNU/Linux distro to become profitable, is being evil by releasing systemd and is benefiting by being able to be 'seen' as the good 'standard' creator. Wow! That's gotta be the most insane silly crazy argument of all time. Sorry, not only am I not buying that turd of argument... I refuse to engage any further with people who willingly paint developers into such a tinfoil hat enabled non-reality. The end. |
| JaseP Nov 18, 2014 6:13 PM EDT |
@ me1010: First of all, you are confusing what is in the POSIX standard versus what isn't. The hardware layer isn't part of the standard. The standard is with system calls, not system configuration. The standard is about keeping interoperability, rather code portability, with other *nix like systems (Unix, BSD, Linux, Minix, Hurd, etc.) And yes,... there is always change/evolution. But, what I have argued is not change to the init system, per se (after all, I didn't protest Upstart), but the feature creep that is turning this thing into "The Borg." Again, if Poettering wants to (re)build a new operating system, he can go re-write the kernel. Then he can call his operating system,... P.O.S. (pun intended). As far as RedHat is concerned, I am not one of the ones who argued about their corporate, money making status. They are free (as in Freedom) to monetize support, etc., and that doesn't run against FOSS principles. The fact that they can monetize it is actually pretty great, if you ask me... But RedHat does increase their value proposition if they control what is happening to the OS. Part of how they make money is by selling certifications to IT professionals,... in fact, their's is the gold standard (the RHCE). If all Linuxes use their systemd software (everything working the same/similar,... the RedHat way...), it increases the value of these certs. Second,... Software isn't patentable (at least it's not supposed to be, but for a corrupt patent system and CAFC),... and YES, I AM a lawyer. The Supreme Court just recently weighed in on this issue, and things are beginning to change for the better. There are exceptions to this principle, but nothing that systemd does would qualify (first, it's general use software,... second it's been done before). Third,... Users are not "freeloaders." If that was the case, the GPL wouldn't exist. Neither would the GNU. Users DO have a right to complain. Developers have built their goodwill (their value as a coder) providing a set of packages that the users like. Any developer who thinks otherwise is like a comedian, heckling his/her entire audience, saying that they tell their jokes for themselves, and walking off the stage. I am not the only one to think this way... See; http://www.outercurve.org/blog/2013/03/13/The-Math-of-FOSS-F... |
| flufferbeer Nov 18, 2014 6:16 PM EDT |
@gus3, @jdixon, >> RedHat benefits by having a large, independent project to which they can point and say, "See? $OTHER_DISTRO likes systemd! How bad can it be? Remember, M$ Windows had the same claims behind it. For a while.<< +1 I can just hear me1010 and some of the other systemd fanbois quietly whispering "Ssh, let's promote better M$-like systemD EEE onto Slackware's .TGZ". Just watch it BE!! 2 more C's |
| me1010 Nov 18, 2014 6:51 PM EDT |
@JaseP: in reverse order... #3... wrong! The GPL is without warranty of any kind. #2... wrong! Software is patentable. The SCOTUS ruling makes it harder, but software is still legally patentable. #1... very, very weak. RH cert is only very marginally, if at all, improved with systemd wide usage. #pre1... The POSIX argument is horribly weak. The proof being that RH has no widely known problems running anything it could before systemd was implemented. The POSIX standard itself is only marginally adapted within most *nix OSes. And most non-free or proprietary *nixes support much of POSIX just to be listed as marginally compliant. Many of these other *nix Oses make heavy use of the non-POSIX extensions. So, like all 'standards' it's probably time to re-normalize.... which is exactly where POSIX came from to begin with... a normalized listing of 'best practices' from several competing *nixes. EDIT: RMS and thoughts on POSIX standard compliance... Quoting:RMS: We follow all standards when doing so is useful for users. However, we do not treat them as authorities, merely as suggestions. When it is more convenient for the users if we depart from a standard, we do so. http://www.linuxdevcenter.com/pub/a/linux/2004/12/22/rms_int... |
| JaseP Nov 18, 2014 7:18 PM EDT |
LOL,... I'm not wrong, my friend,... you are. #3 - A warranty has nothing to do with whether users are morally justified in complaining. That's a red herring,... shame on you... #2 - Read Gottschalk v. Benson,... and then go to law school,... then we'll talk... #1 - It's not about the extensions, it's about Poettering basically throwing out the standards, coming right out and saying for people to read TLPI, but ignore the POSIX stuff (which is a large portion of the book, throughout, and a minimum of four chapters specifically). |
| me1010 Nov 18, 2014 7:48 PM EDT |
@JaseP: FOSS is provided to an end-user with no warranty. A user of FOSS can certainly be a freeloader, and the majority probably are... including me [mostly]. I use FOSS everywhere and for everything, and there is no requirement implied or otherwise that I contribute in any way at all to further the 'betterment' of the FOSS I use. I may contribute, if I wish. But there is no requirement either moral or ethical for me to contribute in any way whatsoever... unless... I distribute the FOSS I use in a modified form. It is impossible for you to win the argument you are making here... Even RMS -- the originator and creator of GNU/GPL disagrees with your position. Further, your position on software patents is unsupported by the reality that the patent office continues to issue them, and no judge has issued a stay to prevent them from continuing to so. Lastly, you don't like Poettering. OK... that's fine.... however... what Poettering says is similar to what RMS says... it's more like a guideline. |
| linuxscreenshot Nov 18, 2014 7:58 PM EDT |
Quoting: I downloaded PC-BSD 10.1 today :) GhostBSD 4.0 (MATE 1.6.1) installed, but with errors. It also failed to fetch/install updates. PC-BSD 10.1 (MATE 1.8.1) install without issues. Updated without issues. |
| JaseP Nov 18, 2014 8:56 PM EDT |
Quoting: Further, your position on software patents is unsupported by the reality that the patent office continues to issue them, and no judge has issued a stay to prevent them from continuing to so. Just because the patent office grants a patent, doesn't make it valid (only presumptively so, and that only because of statute). The patent office recently granted a patent for taking pictures in front of a white background,... You think that one's valid?!?! The system is corrupt/corrupted. That includes the CAFC: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2014/06/top-us-patent-jud... http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-11-05/court-reprimands-la... |
| me1010 Nov 18, 2014 9:15 PM EDT |
@JaseP: An issued patent is valid by definition. It remains valid unless it is either found to be invalid by further inspection by the patent office or successfully challenged in court. Simply stating your opinion that a particular case invalidates all software patents does not make it true. Don't get me wrong - I'm in no way in support of continuing to issue software patents, but my own thoughts on the matter have not been accepted by the authorities granted the power of deciding that issue. Of course, all governments and government offices are corrupted, at least a little... and that includes the judges and lawyers as well... present company excepted - of course... It's a bit unfortunate that the US government was not designed to be less corruptible... perhaps the framers were just too idealistic and reasonably minded... if you allow for them forgetting a few minor details like slavery Here's a much more honest view of things than you might learn in law school... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWiBt-pqp0E |
| JaseP Nov 18, 2014 9:51 PM EDT |
Quoting: An issued patent is valid by definition. No,... it isn't. It is presumed valid... Quoting: 35 U.S. Code § 282 - Presumption of validity; defenses There's a difference. |
| me1010 Nov 18, 2014 10:17 PM EDT |
@JaseP: Well -- you sure showed me up there... I'm impressed. In other news, back at the farm, aliens have taken over all the pigs and they are slaughtering the humans... |
| linux4567 Nov 19, 2014 1:25 AM EDT |
@me1010: you would do us all a favour if you stopped trolling on here. Your post are almost as bad as the childish and argumentative posts from Poettering. Just like Poettering you are not doing the cause of systemd any favours... |
| me1010 Nov 19, 2014 9:22 AM EDT |
@linux4567: Put up the evidence for the RH conspiracy. Actual evidence -- like: 1. RH makes money from this... here's the line from their public record. 2. RH wants to 'take over everything'... here's the email chain from the CEO and COO indicating RH's intent. What you got instead is: 1. I don't like Poettering. And I refuse to be moved to use his software because he stated that POSIX is not something that needs to necessarily be adhered to... I don't know... I'm not young. And I've been through a lot of things in my life... Your view and others like you certainly seem to be taking the extreme and unsubstantiated view. Here's an entertaining read for you: https://avenueforthought.wordpress.com/2014/10/14/conspiracy-theories-the-problem/ And, of course, I'm still trying to 'win'... mostly because it's truly incredible to me that probably otherwise highly intelligent humans can be so silly. |
| mrider Nov 19, 2014 12:31 PM EDT |
O.B. XKCD - https://xkcd.com/386/ |
| jazz Nov 19, 2014 12:46 PM EDT |
Quoting:So... Please define for me a single actual business mechanism where RH benefits from wide adoption of FOSS systemd code incorporated in direct competitors products. Replace a simple, perfectly working piece of software with a very complex one you've developed, and sell customer support. Systemd solves only one problem: selling subscriptions. It has been like this from the beginning. This is the case with most of the software featured here on lxer.com. For example PulseAudio. If you ask on Linux forums nobody knows how to fix PulseAudio problems, all the answers are about scraping it and installing ALSA instead. You basically are on your own with systemd. Judging by the number of bugs registered in CentOS bugzilla, you will definitely need some sort of professional customer support. |
| me1010 Nov 19, 2014 1:03 PM EDT |
@jazz: Not a real business case... You were always on your own with CentOS. That was true both before and after systemd. The individuals or organizations that needed help before will still need help in the future. Some will pay for support and some will struggle through the documentation. There's really no change in the willingness to pay for support either way.... For myself, I've found systemd very useful after spending a long time on the freedesktop and arch wiki sites. Sure... there's a learning curve... but it's truly a great time saver typing in: systemctl status systemctl list-dependencies And, yes! , you can certainly use grep, cut, awk, and other text processing utilities and scripting to home-in on a few items from the tree structure... |
| kikinovak Nov 19, 2014 1:23 PM EDT |
The main argument of the systemd proponents seems to be that "since it's free software, we're free to use it or fork it". Yeah right, like I'm going to write a new init software for my servers and my desktops. Now what will things be like in the near future, in a year or two? Want to use GNOME? Forget it, depends on systemd. Install KDE? No way, KDE wants systemd. Install the GIMP? Unfortunately, there's a dependency on systemd. In short, we'll be "free" to configure a system that works in the sense that chickens fly and horses swim. Systemd seems to define the exact opposite of the Unix philosophy: do a shitload of things that an init system has no business doing... and blame it on someone else if some of these things just fail. And then, there's the aggravating factor that Lennart Poettering is an affective idiot. So yes, there's lots of anger around. If you don't lose your head in certain circumstances, then probably you don't have a head. |
| me1010 Nov 19, 2014 1:28 PM EDT |
Gimp Help Forum: http://gimpforums.com/thread-why-is-systemd-required-to-run-gimp systemd is not needed to run GIMP. Please refrain from propagating incorrect information. Check at the source first, then comment. And here's an even better explanation on Debian's forum: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=116860&start=120#p554403 |
| jazz Nov 19, 2014 2:54 PM EDT |
@me1010 > Not a real business case... Write a complex piece of software and offer customer support for it is the main way of making money in open-source software world. I guess you need to read some more about open-source software. We do have here on lxer.com some excellent articles, or you can try opensource.org. You can also ask you employer to buy you a book or something. > You were always on your own with CentOS. Funny, this is exactly what RedHat seems to think officially. I wouldn't blame CentOS, The community around the distro does try to help you, However, when you run into systemd problems nobody has any idea how to fix them. This makes CentOS in this moment useless - same for Fedora. > For myself, I've found systemd very useful What exactly you've found useful? You and your friends always find it useful. Can you define useful? What exactly could be so useful there? It is just a init system! Init systems have been around for more than 40 years... I guess they are useful! Why don't you try to come with some arguments people reading this thread might find useful! |
| kikinovak Nov 19, 2014 3:16 PM EDT |
@me1010: my post says "in the near future". Like "imagine if..." KDE does not depend on systemd either, even if the eventuality is discussed on KDE's mailing lists. But then, discussing the pros and cons of systemd with the systemd folks seems to me like discussing religious matters with these Jehova's Witnesses nutjobs that regularly ring my doorbell. Everything except "I'm an Atheist, so bugger off!" will keep them ranting on and on at ball-breaking length. |
| gus3 Nov 19, 2014 3:37 PM EDT |
@me1010, the proper name for that "explanation" would get smashed with the LXer editor's hammer. First, GNOME isn't part of GTK+, as iForStyle007 tries to claim. It's the other way around. The G in "GNOME" stands for GTK+. Second, systemd is the only init system that insinuates itself into the build process for The Gimp. Not BSD init. Not SysV init. If a system is capable of launching The Gimp, i.e. the system is operational, what more connection should The Gimp have with the init system? None. Systemd's philosophy stems from the same mind-set as spaghetti-code programming. |
| me1010 Nov 19, 2014 3:39 PM EDT |
@kikinovak: Day dreaming about the imminent FOSS apocalyse is fine, however far fetched it may be... however, please refrain from posting information that is known to be factually erroneous. @jazz: I gave two very simple examples... re-read post... For information on systemd, I go to the source... freedesktop or the very wonderful Arch documentation. There's exactly zero reason why everyone can't do the same. My point about the purported RH business case is that systemd has not changed their business or necessitated an increase in support business. However, if you have factual proof showing otherwise -- please post it -- and then I'm all ears. |
| jazz Nov 19, 2014 5:43 PM EDT |
@me1010 > I gave two very simple examples... re-read post... I thought you were joking. Try ps and pstree commands. Both of them are at least 30 year old. I find most systemd-is-better examples very childish, It is like some poor windows user discovered UNIX and thinks is all because systemd. > For information on systemd, I go to the source... freedesktop or the very wonderful Arch documentation. There's exactly zero reason why everyone can't do the same. No thanks, I have better things to do with my life. I prefer to monitor the noise this project is generating and enjoy the drama. There are lots of people reporting systemd problems every day, Two examples I run into today: Quoting:I am testing Jessie with systemd and find that systemd absolutely refuses to mount a btrfs filesystem in degraded mode even though I explicitly set the option in fstab. Can anyone tell me how to either force it to at least attempt mounting or to have it leave fstab alone and call my script to do the mounting? No, dropping to an emergency shell so I can mount it manually over IPMI is not an acceptable alternative. Quoting:System wouldn't reboot. Flipped to the alternate consoles to see the logs and command shell. GONE. Finally figured it out. It was a USB device and it had to be unplugged or the whole boot process would hang without any information displayed. You do need a support contract with RedHat if you use systemd in any professional capacity. Support on forums, Debian or CentOS will not do it. Bugs in Debian and CentOS are just piling up, the maintainers are unable to fix them. If you don't go through RedHat customer support Pottering@Co will not look at you. So for now I'll stay with sysv init. |
| me1010 Nov 19, 2014 6:12 PM EDT |
@jazz: You asked for something, and I gave an example -- so you make fun of my example and then post how systemd in degraded mode fails to boot on a particular machine. I'm very sure I can provide numerous examples on a daily basis of non-systemd machines failing to boot and giving little or no clear indication of why... So -- what's good for the goose is good for the gander... pre-systemd machines must be terrible [per your logic in reverse example], which means systemd can only be better... And, you are really burying your head in the sand by not even trying to figure out how systemd works... that shows true childishness [also to use your words]. Eventually you are going to have to learn how systemd works, or buy a Mac or Windows PC. Of course BSD will fight the tide, and perhaps the $1 million donation will help you and others that wish to run from something new and probably better in the Linux space. However, if the conspiracy theorists are to be believed, you'll have one heck of a time running GIMP. |
| kikinovak Nov 19, 2014 6:36 PM EDT |
Comparing distributions like Slackware and Red Hat, I can't help thinking that Noah's ark was the work of an amateur, and the Titanic a full-blown professional project. |
| jazz Nov 19, 2014 6:41 PM EDT |
Quoting:I'm very sure I can provide numerous examples on a daily basis of non-systemd machines failing to boot and giving little or no clear indication of why... Be my guest, try to find one when the user plugs in a USB stick at random and sysv init doesn't start. Or something with partitions mounted with other options than what was specified in /etc/fstab. I doubt you'll find anything in any distro forum, from the most professional to the most humble. You wouldn't find something like this in Windows 95 forums either. It is basic init functionality for any operating system. Quoting:And, you are really burying your head in the sand by not even trying to figure out how systemd works.. Unfortunately, the quality of systemd is so low it will be a waste of time to read about it in this moment. The project will go the way of Gnome 3 - more than 3 years after release it barely has 10% of the market. Systemd is already lower at 3 years mark. Quoting:Eventually you are going to have to learn how systemd works, or buy a Mac or Windows PC. You are delusional. What I run is up to me. Anyway, I'm waiting for your startup problems with sysv. |
| me1010 Nov 19, 2014 6:50 PM EDT |
@jazz: I myself have had a USB stick in an external hub when trying to boot Debian stable and the machine failed to boot. Take the USB stick out, it boots... plug it in... Nope, no boot. It's a single machine... the rest of my machines work fine. Why? Because everything about GNU/Linux is a patchwork quilt. It's not necessarily the fault of the FOSS developers, but it might be... mostly it's because the hardware computing world doesn't want to play nice with the FOSS world. That's changing but we're not quite 'there' yet. So... you really want me to look for boot problems listed on forums? Ok... I'll make a deal... I'll find three unsolved boot problems each day to pass on here... maybe a forum post rather than adding to the insanity on this thread... If you agree to not make personal attacks or broad brush unsubstantiated comments about systemd and its developers or maintainers. It could even be a game... we'll see who solves the errant user's problem first. |
| jazz Nov 19, 2014 7:31 PM EDT |
Quoting:I myself have had a USB stick in an external hub when trying to boot Debian stable and the machine failed to boot. Take the USB stick out, it boots... plug it in... Nope, no boot. It's a single machine... the rest of my machines work fine. No, I don't believe you. This will never happen, not even on your windows computer. You are just saying like that, nobody can verify it. Quoting:Because everything about GNU/Linux is a patchwork quilt. It's not necessarily the fault of the FOSS developers, but it might be... mostly it's because the hardware computing world doesn't want to play nice with the FOSS world. That's changing but we're not quite 'there' yet. This patchwork quilt requires a little bit of work to understand. Just stay on the subject, you'll do much better. Nobody needs philosophy here, just facts. For example, if I tell you RedHat makes money selling customer support you need to believe me. Or if I tell you that systemd has a much lower market penetration than Gnome 3 at the same point in life. Quoting:Ok... I'll make a deal... I'll find three unsolved boot problems each day to pass on here... maybe a forum post rather than adding to the insanity on this thread... Deal! I'll open every day this thread and look for 3 unsolved sysv init problems reported on public forums, mail lists, article discussions. Make them from within the same week, don't come with problems from 1997. We have a game! |
| me1010 Nov 19, 2014 7:50 PM EDT |
@jazz:Quoting:This patchwork quilt requires a little bit of work to understand. Just stay on the subject, you'll do much better. Nobody needs philosophy here, just facts. says the same person who also says: Quoting:> For information on systemd, I go to the source... freedesktop or the very wonderful Arch documentation. There's exactly zero reason why everyone can't do the same. Please post a link to the forum post where a user couldn't mount a btrfs partition. I would like to know if it was solved and how. UPDATE: The deal starts tomorrow then... I post what I find in as a forum post. |
| number6x Nov 19, 2014 7:51 PM EDT |
@jazz I've seen this kind of behavior. It has to do with the bios of the machine and the formatting of the usb disk. I would guess that the usb disk has some kind of boot flag set and that the bios is set to check usb before other drives. However the usb does not have the code or partitions needed to actually boot. Now not all bios's are implemented alike. This one probably sees the flag and assumes that is has the bootable disk and can drop out of the control structure( if or case statement) and use this usb disk, so the process hangs. Other bioses will actually wait to attempt to boot and will fail to the next drive instead. Some of this behaviour is also hardware controlled in either the usb subsystems or the hardware bridge. It is post to bios time boot issue before the OS even gets invoked. I have seen this behaviour on windows machines as well as linux and think it is isolated from the OS. I have seen people bring in desktops that would not boot, and there was a usb stick left in one of the slots. remove the stick and it boots right up. It is especially nasty when the usb stick is in the back of the machine and you don't see it at first. You can waste a lot of time and feel like a complete idiot before you notice. It reminds me of a the unplugged keyboard error back in the old Windows '95 days, but that would stop the boot after the OS was loaded. Keyboard not found, strike any key to continue. @ne1010, was it a Dell or an hp? |
| me1010 Nov 19, 2014 8:02 PM EDT |
@number6x: very good! It's an old Dell. |
| jdixon Nov 19, 2014 8:32 PM EDT |
> 1. RH makes money from this... here's the line from their public record. Red Hat is a publicly traded company. They have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders. If they didn't think systemd at least had a significant potential to make them money they wouldn't do it. > I don't know... I'm not young. You know, given your debating style and refusal to accept historical evidence, I might have to see "Actual evidence" before I'm willing to accept that. > Your view and others like you certainly seem to be taking the extreme and unsubstantiated view. And who is arguing for reasoned debate again, exactly? > I myself have had a USB stick in an external hub when trying to boot Debian stable and the machine failed to boot. Failed to boot does not equate to sysv init doesn't start. In your case the boot loader probably failed, not sysv init. This was apparently a systemd error. |
| me1010 Nov 19, 2014 8:42 PM EDT |
@jdixon: The point is: It's all broken. All of it... the entire world of software is broken... including FOSS. This is true whether you run systemd or not. systemd has issues... but everything has issues. Again... the only valid argument left for sane individuals who understand what reality is... is... scope creep. And, I've posted this thought right here earlier. And, if an individual looks at the actual scope of the systemd code, one sees that the 'swallowed' code base is rather small. The 'dependencies' that people are arguing over are nearly entirely optional... and... there is no reason you can't also use other software along side of systemd so that you don't even need to 'really' know systemd is there... although, I don't understand why someone would wish to disable new exciting innovations that can be enabled through use of systemd's architecture. |
| linux4567 Nov 19, 2014 11:53 PM EDT |
@me1010: Please state your financial interest in posting this amount of systemd propaganda on here. There is no way that you would put this amount of effort into defending systemd on here if you didn't have a financial interest in this. Also please specifically answer the following questions: Are you a Red Hat employee or are you working for Red Hat (as a contractor, freelancer or partner of any kind) or being paid by Red Hat directly or indirectly in any form? Else do you work for a business partner of Red Hat? Of course you are free to ignore my questions but in that case it will look pretty obvious that you indeed have a connection with Red Hat and that therefore you are posting on here as a paid shill in disguise. |
| jazz Nov 20, 2014 9:04 AM EDT |
Quoting:Please post a link to the forum post where a user couldn't mount a btrfs partition. I would like to know if it was solved and how. The two problems come from this discussion (yesterday on slashdot): http://linux.slashdot.org/story/14/11/19/043259/debian-votes... |
| Ridcully Nov 20, 2014 9:07 AM EDT |
Wonderful questions linux4567.........but even so, will we get the truth ? And no, I have no axe to grind; you've simply asked some questions I'd like answered too. |
| jdixon Nov 20, 2014 9:14 AM EDT |
It's all broken. All of it... the entire world of software is broken... including FOSS. > Well, duh. Here's a clue, we all know that. > Again... the only valid argument left for sane individuals who understand what reality is... is... scope creep. Not hardly. But I'm not going to argue the technical points of systemd. They've been thoroughly covered here and elsewhere and most people have made up their minds. > ... and... there is no reason you can't also use other software along side of systemd... And if I don't want to use systemd? > ... although, I don't understand why someone would wish to disable new exciting innovations that can be enabled through use of systemd's architecture. And here we see the systemd adovcates in action. Any argument for the option not to use systemd is equated with wanting to shut down innovation. |
| me1010 Nov 20, 2014 9:28 AM EDT |
@jazz: Thanks! I'll look it over later this morning. *ignoring conspiracy theorists* -- filter("on"); |
| flufferbeer Nov 20, 2014 11:52 AM EDT |
@Ridcully linux[4-7] wrote this above Quoting:@me1010: Please state your financial interest in posting this amount of systemd propaganda on here. There is no way that you would put this amount of effort into defending systemd on here if you didn't have a financial interest in this. Still no answer, and to add insult to injury, he (or she) completely AVOIDED the question by actually starting another thread...... on boot problems in non-systemd distros! The Arrogance of it all... -fb |
| me1010 Nov 20, 2014 12:20 PM EDT |
@flufferbeer: At least I haven't attempted to remove a post that might have been ill-advised:  In any case: No. I am not paid by RH for any purpose whatsoever. I am a freelance electrical engineer specializing in developing RF communication systems for government contractors. I am also a stay-at-home parent of three children, one of whom is autistic. In my spare time I run a website or two for unpaid and not-tax-deducted charity purposes. |
| Bob_Robertson Nov 20, 2014 12:29 PM EDT |
Sadly, even in the Trinity-Users mailing list, the systemd argument has become a shouting match. So sad. |
| flufferbeer Nov 20, 2014 12:48 PM EDT |
@Bob_Robertson, mrider started this thread by writin Quoting:I use Debian Stable on my computers. I'm not even slightly happy about the fact that SystemD appears to be slated to be included in the next version of Debian, and most likely I will move on because of that. Pretty obviously, I choose my GNU/Linux version with the idea that someone else can fall on the sword so that I can have a tested system. I think where Debian is going is contrary to that, and I will not indirectly support those actions through use of SystemD. I'll happily revisit that thought at some point in the distant future when SystemD has been thoroughly vetted and has been battle tested.We can even see that since he (or she) wrote this, several more Debian tech committeee devs have resigned over the whole blasted systemd problem. On my own list of thoseresigning 'cause of the DebTechCom's rigid pro-systemd stance, I've so far got Colin Watson, Russ Allberry, and now Ian Jackson. -fb |
| nmset Nov 20, 2014 1:07 PM EDT |
@me1010 I can now know your views are not biased, (it's not pleasing to be forced to write about personal matters in a discussion that's getting too personal). But I don't know if other views are biased, i.e, tied to competitors of Red Hat. |
| mrider Nov 20, 2014 1:57 PM EDT |
@flufferbeer: 1) I'm a "he". :) 2) I'm hoping that the takeaway from my O.P. was this part: Quoting:Having said that, I have to say that the attacks and vitriol are totally over the top. It's sad (but sadly not surprising) that Mr. Heen has had to quit his role as SystemD developer. I wish him well! And I wish a pox on those that drove him from what he was doing! I'm not a fan of SystemD, and I will do what it takes to avoid it in its entirety for at least the foreseeable future, if not forever. However, I wanted the takeaway from my post to be that while disagreement is fine, the harassment and worse are totally unacceptable. |
| linux4567 Nov 21, 2014 12:08 AM EDT |
me1010 wrote: "I am a freelance electrical engineer specializing in developing RF communication systems for government contractors. I am also a stay-at-home parent of three children, one of whom is autistic. In my spare time I run a website or two for unpaid and not-tax-deducted charity purposes." And with all that you still have time to spend all day posting your systemd propaganda on here? Yeah right, I can believe that... just like I believe santa is real. See that's how shills usually reveal themselves, they always go over the top with their declarations of innocence, and for good measure add something very emotional in an attempt to gain sympathy from the readers. |
| kikinovak Nov 21, 2014 2:42 AM EDT |
Interview with Lennart Poettering: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LdRmnSHHVw4 Quote from the interview: "And Slackware people of course prefer their 1990's stuff." And now he's wondering why folks want to use him as a punching bag. What a douchebag. |
| me1010 Nov 21, 2014 7:46 AM EDT |
My three year old autistic child is sitting on my lap at the computer at 0640. She is naming some of the planets I type into Stellarium before I need to get her ready for her day at the local public school's pre-K. Most the work I've been able to do has been in the middle of the night. Although that's changed since I now only have my NT 1 year old at home during the day. My 13 year old is enjoying 8th grade. Do you want my SSN, work history, finger prints, and a notarized letter before you'll believe me? While at the same time believing, without so much as a shred of actual proof, that RH is pushing systemd hard so that they make tons of money? EDIT: Here's a picture of my three year old when she was 7 months old. I left the EXIF info for those interested.  The red spot on her head is known as a hemangioma. She had two of these, one on her head and one under her arm. Both have faded and are barely visible. The point I'm making is: You are dealing with humans. We all have a story. We all have 'something' that needs work in our lives. My life is no different than many others. And when you [as a plural broad group] vilify individuals without proof, you are part of the problem... So... those of us guilty of that, please refrain from doing so in the future... In other news: I unwisely spent a few hours last night drawing a few circuit ideas for the Raspberry Pi Dusklight... I'll probably be posting some this afternoon. If interested, take a look later and let me know if I should post more... |
| jdixon Nov 21, 2014 11:44 AM EDT |
> And when you [as a plural broad group] vilify individuals without proof, you are part of the problem... "...although, I don't understand why someone would wish to disable new exciting innovations that can be enabled through use of systemd's architecture." - me1010 "And Slackware people of course prefer their 1990's stuff." - Poettering Pot, meet kettle. |
| me1010 Nov 21, 2014 12:01 PM EDT |
@jdixon: Whom did I offend? I'm simply stating that if Program A can do A, B, C, and D... while program B can only do A or B and not C or D... why would I choose to run program B? The logical choice is to run Program A. There may be some individuals who have a philosophical reason or two not to run Program A. And there may be individuals who are comfortable running Program B, and don't wish to learn program A. And there may be individuals who have technical issues with Program A versus Program B. However, the logical choice is still to attempt Program A because in the long run it will probably save time and shorten the overall learning required. Nothing in the above paragraph or your quoted reference to my prior post points to any single individual. So what's the problem? Poettering has his own way of voicing his thoughts, and I am in no way responsible for his method of communication. ... Back to eating baloney sandwich before 1 year old wakes up from morning nap. |
| vainrveenr Nov 21, 2014 12:49 PM EDT |
Quoting:> And when you [as a plural broad group] vilify individuals without proof, you are part of the problem... Disregarding for a moment appeals for sympathy and the above vilification, there is now some speculation as to the degree in which Red Hat Inc and its paid SystemD devs might extend their code into other Linux distro's "affairs" and into the very kernel itself. One such speculation is that SystemD code might more extensively "infiltrate" into Debian and Ubuntu-based distros. As in this recent commentator quote from the LXer thread 'Microsoft cackles with glee' found at http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/35664/:: Quoting:Now that systemd has forced itself into almost every distro the only thing that's left for Red Hat to eliminate is the deb packaging format, once that's gone all distros of any importance will be following Red Hat standards and Red Hat will therefore be able to set the direction for Linux as it pleases. |
| number6x Nov 21, 2014 12:51 PM EDT |
My son had a hemangioma in his eye socket, behind his eyeball. It put pressure on his eyeball and his brain. His hemangioma faded away after about 11 or 12 months. They are quite common and usually cause no problems. His sight development was impacted in that eyeball. A few years with corrective lenses and his vision is now fine. |
| Ridcully Nov 21, 2014 5:21 PM EDT |
@vainrveenr....Thanks for the summation in the quotes. I once railed against the huge diversity in Linux, not realising that I was still "brainwashed by the Windows monocode" concept. Now, I realise one of Linux' enormous strengths is its sheer diversity, which makes it far more secure on a world basis. Any moves by Red Hat to reduce this diversity as your post seems to indicate may happen, whether intentional or not, will have serious consequences and "Windows monocode" here we come. Very unfortunate in my books. |
| kikinovak Nov 21, 2014 6:14 PM EDT |
http://www.microlinux.fr/download/systemd.jpg |
| theBeez Nov 21, 2014 7:34 PM EDT |
It's becoming increasingly clear to me that me101 knows more about betting than engineering. What it seems is much more important to him than that what it is. I suspect a marketing or communication background with several years in a technical environment. |
| jdixon Nov 21, 2014 10:25 PM EDT |
> I'm simply stating that if Program A can do A, B, C, and D... while program B can only do A or B and not C or D... why would I choose to run program B? Because you don't need or want C or D, and in fact find them to be drawbacks? No, I guess that idea would never occur to you. > Nothing in the above paragraph or your quoted reference to my prior post points to any single individual. Calling people who make a different choice than you illogical is not normally considered a compliment. |
| BernardSwiss Nov 21, 2014 11:32 PM EDT |
Perhaps I'm oversimplifying, here: But this debate seems to be (in many respects) about 2 quite different things, that are being conflated: One side is eulogizing about how wonderful systemd is for admining servers and server farms -- and lambasting critics as old-fashioned, fossilized fuddy-duddies for not sharing their enthusiasm. The other side is appalled at how bad a design systemd is for a *nix type init system, and lambasting the enthusiasts for brushing aside the hard-earned wisdom and experience-derived insight on good design principles. So the pro-systemd side sees the entwining of systemd into every nook and cranny as a Good Thing, and even justification, and all-swallowing aspects of the project as the inevitable march of progress, While the anti-systemd side sees the very same things as a threat to sound design, long-term stability and long-term flexibility, a breeding ground for cruft, and as a project effectively a straight-jacket that closes off far more options than it opens. What one side sees as good is precisely what the other side sees as bad, precisely because they have different views on what the whole point is. |
| me1010 Nov 22, 2014 12:05 AM EDT |
BSEE. [no... I'm not posting my diploma] I grew up with 12 other siblings. I was always a terrible student. I took apart everything I could find, and had a huge box of wires and spare parts. Got married instead of college... bad idea... don't do it... restarted college after 5 years. Spent 7 years as a repair technician before graduating. I've done component level diagnosis and repair on computer monitors [CRTs], laptops, high power line controllers, specialized laser reflectometers for measuring molten metals, biological lab equipment such as small batch fermentors and shakers. I've also designed and hand built test fixtures for circuit cards coming off an assembly line. Got divorced... bad idea... don't do it... After graduating with a BSEE [cum laude -- just barely], I spent 8 years working for the government designing and field testing small stationary as well as on-the-move satellite terminals. I wrote several SBIR topics and held the record in my division for the most topics accepted in a single rotation. Got remarried... terrible idea... don't do it... I've worked on superconductor electronics [niobium - critical temperature 9.2 Kelvin] and had a hell of a time testing the circuits, as the Helium compressor was notoriously leaky. The circuits would become unstable once temperatures hit about 6 Kelvin or so... Then I started freelancing... and simultaneously started my second career in child-rearing... I can truly tell you, raising kids full time is by far the hardest job I've ever had. I had to forgo several high dollar projects in order to take care of my younger kids, especially the autistic one... I may not have too much professional programming experience, but I have programmed several personal and in-house testing projects. I know assembly [my favorite -- know x86_32, 68000, Atmel 8051, Atmel AVR], C, Pascal, Ada, Basic, learning python [for the Raspberry Pi], learning sql [postgresql], and TCL/TK [my goto easy to use 1990s GUI -- Poettering would be proud]... Having said that I'm also: Prone to bouts of depression. I have a general fear of failure. I have trouble completing my own work, but will gladly do all of yours. I have terrible business sense in that I have no idea how much to charge clients - mostly I forget to bill and then get phone calls from the client's financial office wondering if I'm going to send them a bill for the project I did for them. I can be easily distracted. Does any of this have anything to do with the systemd, Debian, Poettering, and you? I dunno... but it feels good to post it anyway... Didn't have time this afternoon to finish the Pi circuits --- Monday... Lastly... some of you must be crazier than I am... and definitely have deep-seated problems... I'm sure we could all do with some good drugs and a bit of group therapy. This will be my last post on any systemd thread -- please don't bother me with weird ideas about how I must be some paid supporter/promoter somebody for something... you would be and are terribly wrong about that... However, I'll be more than happy to answer questions about electronics or the circuits I will put up in the forum section [eventually]... I do plan on submitting a paper to MILCOM 2015, and will probably be at the Tampa convention next October -- so, if anyone wants to be really sure I'm not a super-secret RH spy - send me a email on this system and I'll let you know my schedule when time gets closer. Running low on Dunkin Donuts French Vanilla... goodnight... MILCOM 2015 info [PDF]: http://www.milcom.org/docs/milcom2015_call_for_papers.pdf SBIR desk reference: http://www.acq.osd.mil/osbp/sbir/sb/resources/deskreference/index.shtml Example of Niobium Superconductor Circuit Fabrication Process [PDF]: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1408.5828.pdf Superconductor Circuit Textbook [SQUID]: http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/squid-handbook-john-clarke/1101190314?ean=9783527404087&itm=1&usri=9783527404087 |
| linuxscreenshot Nov 22, 2014 5:06 PM EDT |
... |
| BernardSwiss Nov 22, 2014 5:55 PM EDT |
@linuxscreenshot let's be fair, here -- me1010 didn't start that: there have been repeated allegations from certain quarters, that me1010 is a shill or at least seriously misrepresenting himself, and dismissals of his previous replies. While I personally think me1010 is thoroughly wrong on the systemd issue, under the circumstances his mini-bio is arguably the very politest possible response to some of the accusations sent his way. |
| kikinovak Nov 22, 2014 6:07 PM EDT |
I second that. Please let's treat each other with a little respect, even if we don't share the same opinion on technical matters. |
| mrider Nov 22, 2014 6:32 PM EDT |
As the originator of the thread, I third that. Especially considering the message I was trying to get across in my post. |
| linux4567 Nov 22, 2014 6:58 PM EDT |
It's sad that you are falling for me1010s bu*****. Nobody asked him to post his 'life story', the question was simply whether he has any financial connections with Red Hat, which only required a 'yes' or 'no' answer. linuxscreenshot is right, me1010 should have saved his narcissistic verbal selfies for Facebook, they are completely off-topic here. But of course me1010 knows that such tear-inducing posts work in his favour as demonstrated by the reactions following it. me1010 has been using textbook shill tactics and as somebody else mentioned already, comes across as someone with plenty marketing experience rather than like an engineer (which he claims to be). |
| nmset Nov 23, 2014 4:45 AM EDT |
>the question was simply The question was illegitimate. Before the question, no one else proved any absence of financial gains against systemd or Red Hat. |
| jdixon Nov 23, 2014 7:10 AM EDT |
> ...the question was simply whether he has any financial connections with Red Hat, which only required a 'yes' or 'no' answer. Ironically, I've been on the anti-systemd side most of this discussion, and I do have a financial connection with Red Hat, being a Red Hat shareholder. Only 15 shares, admittedly, but still... If I can find my stock certificate, which should be somewhere in the house or in our safe deposit box, it may be time to do something about that. I don't think I like the way Red Hat is heading. |
| flufferbeer Dec 01, 2014 11:42 PM EDT |
The systemd troll writes above:"This will be my last post on any systemd thread...." ...and yet he CONTINUES past this systemd thread to defend systemd on others? His believability quotient struggles hard to stay above 0. Nuff said. -fb |
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