I'm an old fashioned sort of
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| Author | Content |
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| Ridcully Jul 31, 2014 6:25 AM EDT |
Y'know what ? I don't have one of these devices because I still LOVE to use maps.......honest to goodness printed maps, that you follow and feel so good when you arrive exactly where you want to be. For local regions, Google Maps is wonderful.......print out the relevant area, check it out with the little "man" to get street view and away you go. I've got nothing against car satnavs.....or whatever, and them's as likes them.....go for it !!! But, I am starting the revolt. "Mapreaders of the world unite........reject these unholy devices and show the masses how a simple, cheap, printed page can do exactly what the satnav can do in order to get you to the destination"........Provided you exercise your native intelligence of course. Possibly that is the real message... These car devices are ostensibly designed to "help you" but in fact, as far as I can see, they also reduce your resourcefulness and cognitive/interpretative skills - you become an unthinking robot responding to their commands. And sometimes with disastrous results as the news bulletins have indicated. Actually, I really DO have a Magellan product........It's an old Lat/Long device circa 1998 which only gives the lat/long readouts, your speed, ETA, location of destination, satellites in the air above you and so forth. It's an old clunker, but it still works and works well. It surely doesn't use either Win or Android.......but it's a very, very useful device if you are a botanist and want to record the location of a collection. |
| jdixon Jul 31, 2014 6:40 AM EDT |
> ...and show the masses how a simple, cheap, printed page can do exactly what the satnav can do in order to get you to the destination... Well, there are a couple of minor details which affect things. 1) It's not safe to try to use a map while you're driving, while once the GPS is set it's relatively safe to use. 2) The companies releasing maps appear to have completely forgotten how to make usable maps. 3) Maps may be missing important details like road construction, one way streets, etc. (yes, part of this problem is due to number 2 above). But I agree completely that some pre-trip work with a map is an essential component of a successful trip and I always try to have a road atlas in the car, just in case. |
| Ridcully Jul 31, 2014 6:51 AM EDT |
Jdixon.......I am ashamed of you. {Not really, but it was so much fun to say and I could sound SO indignant :-) } You never, never, never not ever try to map read while driving. You pull over, if necessary and refresh your memory.......OR.........you have a navigator's assistant (usually called your wife) who tells you where to go........and does a darn fine job too.Quoting:3) Maps may be missing important details like road construction, one way streets, etc. (yes, part of this problem is due to number 2 above). I am sorry, but "it is to laugh very, very cynically"......have you ever seen what happens when road construction is so rapid and changing that satnavs cannot keep up ...........and here in sunny SE Queensland I have seen signs on the major highways saying: Turn off or disregard satnavs - they will not have the latest details of these road changes". It is also due to these situations that we have had at least one horrible accident due to blind operation and following of a satnav........But, if you are trained to use your deduction and cognitive skills, you can easily find your way through these mazes........Give me maps any day !!!! |
| jdixon Jul 31, 2014 8:25 AM EDT |
> You never, never, never not ever try to map read while driving. You pull over... That implies that traffic will let you do so and that there's some place you can pull over. Often neither are the case in my experience. > OR.........you have a navigator's assistant (usually called your wife) who tells you where to go. Oh, I have lots of experience with that. :) > but "it is to laugh very, very cynically"......have you ever seen what happens when road construction is so rapid and changing that satnavs cannot keep up Oh, I don't bother with the models that try to track that for you, but I do use the detour feature that most models have for cases like that. > But, if you are trained to use your deduction and cognitive skills, you can easily find your way through these mazes What are those? As I've been known to tell people, I can get lost crossing a street for the first time. :) For me, both maps and GPS units have their place in getting me where I need to go. Maps in the pre-planning or sitting still phase, and the GPS for the fine details and emergency re-routes. One of the main problems with GPS units around here is that they'll often try to take someplace using back roads that aren't really intended for such traffic (or, in same cases are even single lane gravel roads, as I've seen happen). |
| Ridcully Jul 31, 2014 9:05 AM EDT |
I'm sorry Jdixon, but I keep on laughing at the situations that can arise......and the problem is that at the time, they are deadly serious. But honestly, unless you are in an extreme position, I have never found a situation in which I could NOT pull over within a couple of minutes......and then you can recover your situation and get to the position you wanted in the first place. I know that sounds trite, but it's true as far as I am concerned. Your last paragraph is the important bit in my experience: You use what you need to achieve your destination safely, and I am the first to agree on that one. I've had long, long, long experience in map reading from Scouts, University courses in Geography, service in the Royal Aust. Navy (although we used charts mostly and did astronavigation way out at sea .....but also coastal navigation which can be very, very fiddly) and in my days things like Loran were still around in some places - or at least we had to be aware that it existed. What I am getting at, I suppose, is that maps/charts and their interpretation are second nature to me and I don't need something else to interpret them for me. So, to put it in perspective from where I am coming from, I am happy with maps, google maps, street directories and so forth and to be honest, I have never really felt the need to use a satnav in the sense motorists use them today. Nevertheless, I am first in line to agree that if a satnav is what you need, then use it. And given your problems crossing a street (LOL) you look to be like a person who needs a little help. And just in case I appear too confident: Although my dearly beloved, bless her, does do her best with maps, she candidly agrees that her "bump of direction" is pretty much shot and I have been known to overrule her directions and produce correct results. It's not her fault in any way, she simply doesn't have a good sense of direction. These days though, we rarely do the long trips into the unknown......so, most places that I go are already known to me. I'd be terrified to drive in Sydney though......I lived there for about 15 years, but that was 30 years ago........and what it would be like now would throw me completely. |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 31, 2014 10:48 AM EDT |
[serious ... at least I think so] My experiences are more in line with jd than yours. Stopping to check maps? Then why was I doing 85 in a 55 mph zone? Plus those two others in sports cars I was pacing until I tired of it and worried a bit too much about getting caught. Really when you really need it neither GPS nor are maps the answer, e.g. telling one to make a U turn on a limited access road or being trapped on a surface road with construction or other constraints that make it impossible to pull over, respectively. I have used both, but where you really need guidance I seem predisposed for making the wrong choice, then looking at the sun's angle to try to get back to where I should have been. I have been lost so much on so many travels I will use any tool to lessen the probability of or if the likely happens and means to recover my selected route. Major map failure: when for the first time I was testing my car against my first encounter with major mountain passes I had only maps and I was somewhat dubious of my car's abilities to handle high altitude and heavy grades. I ended up traversing most I could find using maps as my guide. However, one in particular threw me. On the map it was shown as interstate level road, but it steadily degraded. to the point it was barely paved. Moreover, the surface was radically undulating where I could do no more than second gear with down shifting to first. Soon I was convinced I had made a major error and I just halted my vehicle, which was safe since there was no traffic that I could discern. So when I was pouring over the map trying to deduce where I committed my error a pick up approached from the other direction. The driver seeing me perplexed assured me I was on the correct route. Had he not I think I would have back tracked. It was still a long drive before I even reached a reasonably paved road and more distance until it became a divided highway and finally reached Interstate standard road specifications. Well here in the U.S., to retain copy right special features are inserted to make their renditions unique in some aspect. For example, if an oil company showing their gas stations. So just perhaps this fictional interstate showing it covering an entire mountain pass was their copy right holding fiction. [/serious] As always, YBT |
| tuxchick Jul 31, 2014 1:01 PM EDT |
I've had mixed experiences with my fancy little talking Garmin. I get regular map updates, but there are still a lot of errors. It makes me wonder what their map sources are, because they're getting old stuff wrong. It's very stubborn when it decides I need to follow a particular route, and I know it's the wrong route, and it keeps trying to make me backtrack and do what it wants. The towing business for my local auto repair shop has boomed because of these little fiends-- they steer truckers into unpaved skinny mountain roads. It's useful in cities for finding the correct lanes and exits well in advance, and steering through mazy freeways. |
| Ridcully Jul 31, 2014 6:09 PM EDT |
Good points tuxchick.....I suppose my experiences are now somewhat biased, because for the past almost 30 years, I have lived in a small country town....probably about 1500 people in total and almost all of my travelling is on open country highways. A fortnightly trip to a large country town of perhaps 5,000, but I know that town well. I also go to the "Big Smoke" of Brisbane perhaps once a month and while I have no problems, I can't say that I enjoy it overmuch......sigh of relief as I hit the roads that lead to home. So, 95% of my motoring is local or highway and I already KNOW those roads and my destinations.......A satnav in my car would be overkill in a big way.......So given my motoring conditions, I offer my kind of sort of apology to Jdixon because all my comments are slanted with that sort of road usage in mind. But, tuxchick, you make an excellent point with the implication that a car satnav is really only as good as the data that it has been fed......The same can be said, certainly, for a map. And finally, both depend seriously on the ability of the operator to use either resource correctly. It was ever thus I think. Txt, you also make very sensible points. In the city, I certainly do NOT pull over in city traffic to play map reading. I make damn sure I know exactly where I am going before setting out......and of course, Brisbane is familiar to me - I grew up there - but even so, some areas are now changing dramatically as freeways and underground tunnel bypasses are constructed. On Tuesday morning I have to make a 150km trip down to Strathpine near Brisbane.....It was only through Google maps that I realised that I was totally wrong about the location of the refrigeration firm I must go to......so street view was taken and a phone call made to the company to check my accuracy and it was "all systems go". On this occasion, I won't even consider having a map in sight.......I know the roads, I know the route, I know the location and who needs the satnav ? I often think that the people who really DO depend on satnavs here are overseas tourists with hirecars, or couriers on door to door work......Now they wholly depend on those devices and you can think of other workers with similar needs, like emergency doctors etc. But for a person whose life isn't based on travelling into unfamilar surroundings, I think satnavs are overkill and "keeping up with the Joneses". Simplistic I know, but it is a viewpoint. |
| caitlyn Jul 31, 2014 8:33 PM EDT |
I use the TeleNav GPS software in my Android phone. Mostly it's very good and it talks so I don't have to take my eye off the road. The last time it really messed up on me was when it tried to send me down the wrong way (against traffic) on a one way interstate highway service road in 2012. I later learned that in that part of Texas the service roads really had been two way until shortly before that. For the two years since then it's worked well for me. So, I agree with tuxchick and Ridcully that old data is a problem. With satnav it can be months old; with printed maps it is often years old. I like having a printed road atlas for planning wrong trips. For everything else I prefer the newfangled toy in my phone. |
| BernardSwiss Jul 31, 2014 8:53 PM EDT |
Besides, reading a map gives you a much better idea of "the lay of the land". |
| Ridcully Jul 31, 2014 8:58 PM EDT |
Exactly so, BernardSwiss.....maps are invaluable when you do long distance trips.....such as from Brisbane to Cairns (1200 miles) or Brisbane to Melboure (over 1500 miles). You can plan overnight stops and see what is on the way......Usually, recent maps are no problem because I belong to a Queensland motorists association and with my very long membership I now get the latest maps, road conditions and accommodation details for free. |
| tuxchick Aug 01, 2014 5:27 PM EDT |
Oh you odd people and your love of old technologies. Surely a 5" screen is every bit as good as a square-yard paper map. |
| Ridcully Aug 01, 2014 6:35 PM EDT |
I'll think about it Tuxchick.....however which cheek did you put your tongue in ? Hmmmmmmmm ??? |
| tuxchick Aug 01, 2014 10:54 PM EDT |
:D |
| kikinovak Aug 02, 2014 8:26 AM EDT |
I've been a motorcycle courier for a few years in South France, in a time where GPS was not invented yet. I had to rely on maps, sense of orientation, memory. I still do, to this day. |
| Ridcully Aug 02, 2014 9:57 AM EDT |
Kikinovac, you have triggered a thought in my mind which has sort of been bubbling away for a number of years. I'm probably going to get "killed" for saying this, but nevertheless....... I think that those of us who "trained in the old ways" can often be far better off, than those who have not had this exposure. It's difficult to put into words, but I'll have a go....My world has always been maps and charts. I follow and use them without a second thought. I ensure I have the latest versions where that is possible or necessary. If I have to use a satnav, I can do it, but I am happy without it. Now for calculations. I was trained by a sadistic school teacher, way, way back. BUT, he instilled in me a mechanical-rote ability to add, subtract, multiply and divide numbers that I still use.......Naturally, I most definitely still use a calculator, but I bless my "trained in the old ways" methods that allow me to use the best of both worlds in the applications of arithmetic. I can manually skim up a column of figures that would leave a modern youngster lost ........My feelings are that kids today are so dependent on computer aid that they are unable to give you the correct change at a supermarket checkout unless the cash register shows them the amount to be returned to the customer. It's similar with spelling. I had spelling literally "bashed into me" by the same teacher. I hated him - but today I revere what he achieved; an almost dictionary quality knowledge of how English (British spelling of course - no American corruption) is applied.....so much so that during my very recent submission of a paper to an Australian journal, I was able to point out that referees indicating I had spelling errors were in fact being blindly obedient to the use of spelling checkers based on the American spelling dictionary not the British, and the British spelling was required by the journal. You'll forgive me, I hope, that I felt slightly vindictive in this case because it was an interesting and very satisfying response to give to the referees. We "old bods" have the best of both worlds. I can use a calculator, spelling checker, satnav, GPS unit....even a computer...LOL.....but I can go back, if necessary to living without those aids (though I'd hate it, even though I could do it.) This sort of inbuilt flexibility in us oldies seems to have been a casualty of the modern generations......Now, am I barking up a gum-tree ? Or does anyone else feel the same way ? Just curious......and I absolutely WILL duck if you start throwing old boots at this antique moggie. |
| tuxchick Aug 02, 2014 2:00 PM EDT |
Ridcully, the marketing hook for most gadgets is zero-knowledge. You don't need to know anything, just do what $gadget says. Which, of course, is rubbish. I don't get why anyone would be proud of cultivating zero-knowledge anyway. You need some knowledge to use a calculator; it's not magic.Your comment about making change? You can always identify the new hires at the local McDonald's (which has to be in the top ten for worst McDonald's in the US) because they don't know what combination of coins and bills to use make the change the register tells them. Don't even get me started on spelling, because I could rant all day about the supposedly bestest nation on earth populated by ninnies who barely have a third-grade command of their native language. Knowledge, skills and experience are good things. <-- the audience gasps in horror and flees to Twitter and Facebook to share their dismay |
| BernardSwiss Aug 02, 2014 4:10 PM EDT |
I'm willing to cut our youth (our adults too, come to that) some slack on the spelling issue; English-language spelling is infamously inconsistent -- to the point it is believed to actually delay childrens' developing good reading skills by two or three years. It's a bad sign when "spelling bees" are considered a legitimate competitive activity. |
| BernardSwiss Aug 02, 2014 4:28 PM EDT |
Speaking as someone who has spent too much time behind a cash register, and who is perfectly capable of (and accustomed to) calculating correct change in my head, I think it's pertinent to point out what happened when the store where I was working swapped out its old, hand-cranked till for a modern, programmable cash register that automatically calculated taxes, totals, and correct change. Within months (within weeks?) I discovered that I was not only finding it much harder to do it in my head, but I could be positively discombobulated by having a customer make some minor, simple change (amount of purchase or amount tendered) in their transaction, after I'd already "rung it in" to the register. (And my colleagues noticed the same effect.) And the weird twist is, that when I wasn't behind that "smart" cash-register, I could still work these matters out in my own head with little trouble. |
| kikinovak Aug 02, 2014 5:35 PM EDT |
@Bernard Swiss: spelling doesn't depend on the language itself, only on those who learn it. |
| Ridcully Aug 02, 2014 6:38 PM EDT |
BernardSwiss.....I seem to recall we had spelling bee competitions "way back" here in Australia. I remember them quite well as a child and the winners were celbrated. Admittedly our only way of disseminating the news was via print media and radio, but it happened. Also, spelling was considered a legitimate question to ask in the quiz shows hosted out here on radio by Jack Davey and Bob Dyer, the two main comperes for Pick-a-Box etc. Cor blimey, I'm going back in time......We used to love listening to those quiz shows and the audiences just about had to book seats to get in. All the rest of us listeners used to show off how good we were by spelling the word correctly at home........sigh........memories. :-) |
| TxtEdMacs Aug 02, 2014 6:53 PM EDT |
My Dearest Mr./Dr./Professor/round about know it all/ Ridiculous: You consistently underestimate the power of new, consumer technology and the benefits they bestow upon the huddled masses. I get lost nearly equally whether my reliance is upon either maps or GPS or neither. In the past, when unexpectedly diverted from roads by maximally congested traffic, forced detours or just wrong turns. I learn have learned new routes I later employed. Indeed in Native American terms, I am not lost the camp is lost. Now that is an incisive view of the problem. Now take the benefits of a working spell checker that alone allowed me to boost my standing from the Second Worst* Speller of the English Language to sub par to poor. Think of that, now I stand just below average ... my ranking has jumped by millions even as many others' standings has risen, just using this one still slightly defective tool. So too can satnav and GPSs make one life easier while throwing in a sinker every once in a while. Remember nothing is truly free, have you forgotten your Thermodynamics Laws? As always, YBT * I figured that at least one person on this planet had to be worse than i, hence I allowed myself the small consolation of being the penultimate on that scale. Am I forgiven? |
| CFWhitman Aug 04, 2014 8:31 AM EDT |
Spell checkers for English annoy me because they almost always will cite either British or American spelling variations as misspellings, and they ought not do that. Both variations are correct, generally. There may be a few specific circumstances where one variation is preferred, so I can understand that a way to select one might be desirable, but as a general rule, I think that they ought to recognize both variations as correct. Of course, my perspective is that of someone who has read quite a bit by English speaking authors from around the world, and has been known to spell words with either variation from time to time. That may influence my opinion about the matter. One other thing I have noted, however, is that some of the variations take place within the U.K. itself (as well between other areas that are both considered to be using the same variation). |
| jdixon Aug 04, 2014 12:18 PM EDT |
> ...they almost always will cite either British or American spelling variations as misspellings, and they ought not do that. Oh, I agree completely, for pretty much the same reasons. |
| gus3 Aug 04, 2014 1:18 PM EDT |
And the Internet has us all connected, and English speakers don't "correct" someone's acceptable, alternate spelling. So, neither should spell-check. Oh, & don't 4get txting! LOL |
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