I am just so very, very tired.........
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Ridcully May 22, 2014 8:19 AM EDT |
I no longer want new, new, new, .........updated, updated, updated,.......swinging, dancing, glitz, novel desktops, glamour, developer's paradise.......All I want is stability, simplicity, ease of use and most important of all, familiarity. And no bugs or security breaches in the software, which to me are far more important than glitz, glamour and "new, new ways" of presenting the desktop. Of course, this may only be kite-flying, but with KDE, the most dreadful kites all too frequently become reality. What is it that I have said again, and again, and again: The normal person says: "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The KDE developer says: "If it ain't broke, develop it until it is." All I want is a familiar, easy to use, simple desktop that aids my work, rather than hinders it. I cannot help thinking of WinXP and the Microsoft moves to the ultimate Win8 and the disaster that has become. And all of China is now finding how mucky Microsoft can be if they are stuck on WinXP. I keep on feeling that KDE is similar in outlook and results. But........what the heck would I know......I'm just a stupid user who likes the feel of something that works and works well......even if it is several versions of KDE behind the current releases. No wonder Trinity users feel so superior.. Okay everybody, shoot me down, but that's just how I feel. :-) 2c. |
| Scott_Ruecker May 22, 2014 9:04 AM EDT |
I'm right there with you Tony. I like finding something that works and leaving it that way..working. I don't need or want the new new new all the time. |
| DrGeoffrey May 22, 2014 9:05 AM EDT |
The beauty of Linux is that we have choices. We don't have to follow the dictates of others. |
| Ridcully May 22, 2014 9:37 AM EDT |
Thanks Scott. The problem DrGeoffrey is that the latest versions also have the latest versions of accessory software like Dolphin, K3b, or the ability to run the latest versions of Chrome or FFox (if you want to use that package after its moves to DRM) and so on and so on.......and of course, if you don't move, you are hit by the fact that you are losing the latest security patches because the version you are using is so outdated that it is no longer supported. Remembering that this is also a function of the underlying OS......which is usually separate in its development steps from the DE that is running on it. You eventually reach a point where you are forced to move on - and that is indeed the dictates of others.......and then you have to decide whether you will stick with the mucky thing that KDE has now become......or move to something else like Xfce or Trinity or whatever.........Again, this is strictly MY perspective....dear Fettoosh (or someone else) will no doubt explain to me that KDE in its latest versions is superb, simple, easy to use, no problems, highly flexible, very fast, etc. etc.and that they find my ramblings utterly "disparaging"......and I use that word in its purist form when I consider KDE :-) So I come back to my main theme........I want stability, simplicity, familiarity. I want to open my new version of my favourite DE (which believe it or not really IS KDE) and find it is the same as it always was.......no new icons, no new ways of putting in "My Computer", no new glitz, just good stable software.........with no security breaches........Is that too much to ask of the KDE team ? Well, apparently it is. |
| DrGeoffrey May 22, 2014 10:19 AM EDT |
@Ridcully - Point taken. |
| nmset May 22, 2014 10:24 AM EDT |
But KDE WILL keep changing. Someone pointed out recently it's the nature of the beast in the FOSS world. There are alternatives, you already know that, why continue mourning vainly ? KDE as you knew it is dead, so are mobile phones, cars, TV sets... After KDE5, there'll be KDE6, KDE7... KDEn..., yes it's true, catch up. |
| CFWhitman May 22, 2014 10:38 AM EDT |
At least at this point it appears they are approaching this cautiously and not forcing any changes on anyone yet. We'll see how it develops. I don't care for having 'new paradigms' forced on me either. At the same time, however, I wouldn't want all experimentation and progress to stop, or have a certain desktop environment to always have to wait for a feature to be a success somewhere else before trying it out themselves. I'm not sure what the best solution is for dealing with these two principles that can at times be diametrically opposed. I begin to understand why there have been projects with an experimental branch. Of course, I've been somewhat shielded from all of this because KDE and GNOME have never been regularly used desktops for me. My desktops have most commonly been Xfce, Fluxbox, or IceWM. There certainly have been no big paradigm shifts in Fluxbox or IceWM since I first used them. The changes in Xfce have been much greater (from a CDE type interface to a generally more familiar menu based one), but were very well received in general. I've also always been able to use KDE and GNOME applications when I wanted to. The big reactions to the GNOME, KDE, and Unity interfaces are something I've watched with interest, but from a relatively safe distance. :-) |
| cr May 22, 2014 11:08 AM EDT |
If it's that important, maybe it's time for somebody to step up and fork off a maintenance branch of KDE4 like Tim Pearson et al did with KDE3.5 -> TDE (with KDE cooperation). There's certainly something to be said for "New! Improved!"... provided that it actually is improved. There's also something to be said for Just Works, and all the evangelical zeal in the forum won't change that. When I need to Just Work, I need my desktop to Just Work too. For me, Trinity is currently quite good about that. |
| tuxchick May 22, 2014 12:55 PM EDT |
I'd be a lot more optimistic about UI changes if they were fueled by user feedback, instead of developer boredom. |
| cr May 22, 2014 2:21 PM EDT |
tc: "It's a bypass! You've got to build bypasses!" |
| gus3 May 22, 2014 5:10 PM EDT |
And that's why I rolled my own, with Sawfish. (GUI environment, not bypass.) |
| Ridcully May 22, 2014 5:59 PM EDT |
@tuxchick.....I could not agree more. Very nicely put. I had a wry smile over nmset's metaphor and mobile phones. Mobile phones, as I know them, certainly aren't dead. I go into the phone shops occasionally to check on sales comparisons of Android, Apple and Windows and find that when the sales people see my dear old Motorola clamshell (which STILL works perfectly nmset) the instant reaction is that they remember it as being one of the most superb phones to hit the market. And you can still purchase similar clam-shell phones. My point being that all I want is a mobile phone, not a portable workplace in miniature - and it looks like there is still a market out there for these simpler phones, otherwise they would not be on sale. @cr......agreed. To be honest, when I think of the huge heap of code that KDE has become, I sit and wonder how many coding errors are present (and there will be lots and lots), how many of those errors contribute to lack of security or stability, how much additional computing time and CPU operation is required and wouldn't it be better for these developers to streamline the code by developing speed, stability and security rather than glitz and "new improved". To me, higher speeds, less CPU stress, simplicity, familiarity and the ability to do my tasks are far more important than the KDE5, KDE6,..... KDEn of nmset, purely because I look on the DE as a place to do practical work simply and easily........ It is very easy to conclude that nmset's concept is that KDE is a sacred piece of developer's artwork under construction where the users wishes are totally ignored or subservient to the desire of the developers to change, alter, upgrade, glitz, "improve", add, ..........ad infinitem. "Thou, oh user, shalt not express unhappiness - a worm thou art, and thou shalt just take what we developers are a-gonna force on you and be so, so, sooooo grateful." One could never mourn the loss of the earlier model if the new one was found to do the tasks better, more simply, faster and more securely with better stability. But does it ? So far, my personal experiences have been negative. |
| tuxchick May 22, 2014 7:21 PM EDT |
Quoting: One could never mourn the loss of the earlier model if the new one was found to do the tasks better, more simply, faster and more securely with better stability. Exactly right. Back in the olden days of film cameras I had two cameras: a nice old twin-lens reflex Rollei 120, and an unkillable Minolta 35mm SLR. I toted them around for years and years. Then along came digital photography. I bought my first digital camera in 2005. Since then I have purchased eight different digital cameras. It's a different ballgame now-- good lenses are forever, but camera bodies are little computers, and just like big computers get supplanted by newer models that are more powerful and sophisticated. I had a satisfactory set of electric power tools that were decades-old. I even rewired a couple of them (remember when you could rewire electric motors?) Those are all gone now, replaced with cordless. I have a cherished old Pioneer stereo amp that I will keep repairing until I croak. But my teevee is a shiny new LCD HDTV. I have wanted a classic '66 Mustang since I was knee-high to a moped. A couple years ago I had enough money to buy one. So I went shopping, and drove several. That cured my obsession because compared to even the most low-budget modern car they don't handle worth a darn. They steer like boats and have mushy brakes. The look is awesome, but it's not enough. And so on....change for the better is great. That's what we do in tech. Change for the worse isn't worth defending. |
| BernardSwiss May 22, 2014 8:22 PM EDT |
tuxchick wrote: I'd be a lot more optimistic about UI changes if they were fueled by user feedback, instead of developer boredom. Aye, there's the rub... |
| linux4567 May 22, 2014 10:51 PM EDT |
Long live TDE! As long as there is TDE I couldn't care less what the KDE guys do to KDE. KDE 3.5 was the apex, so TDE is the only choice for me. |
| Ridcully May 23, 2014 2:23 AM EDT |
@linux4567........TDE - it's my dream to see TDE up and running far more than it is now.......I have said again and again that I live in hopes of a major distro offering TDE as a desktop alternative to KDE. I have the suspicion that TDE would win hands down for simplicity, stability, speed, ease of use and familiarity. It probably won't be openSUSE because I have a sneaking suspicion that the openSUSE and KDE development teams are sorta, kinda "teamed up" (I think the American phrase is: "in cahoots with each other" ?) so that a direct KDE competitor would be immediately excluded. (I apologise if I have given offence, but that's my personal take as I sniff the atmosphere over those two teams when I read some of the blogs that involve both groups - if I'm wrong, say so.)......But Fedora now, or Ubuntu.....or anything, as long as it came as a complete package where you simply installed the whole thing from the DVD. |
| gary_newell May 23, 2014 3:54 AM EDT |
I wrote an article about Akregator that has just been put up on LXER. When I published the link to Reddit there were a number of comments saying "You do realise this hasn't been updated in years". Does it need updating? It worked perfectly well as far as I could tell. As a developer you are never happy with what you have just done. I look at code I wrote 6 months ago and I would rewrite the lot. There always seems to be a better way as time moves on. It is the same with UI design. You like it when you first create it and think it is so much better and then as time goes by you think, yeah that would be better if it looked like this or did that. Developers are usually their own worst critics (except for perhaps testers). |
| nmset May 23, 2014 4:00 AM EDT |
@gary_newell You commented perfectly well, nothing more to add. |
| Ridcully May 23, 2014 4:02 AM EDT |
Now that is a style of development I could very happily live with Gary...it's rather like writing a scientific paper. You finish it and then if you are wise, you put it away and don't even think about it for a week or two........then look at what you have written in horror as you find error after error in style, grammar and content. As an old hand in the high school teaching game, we always used to stress "from the known to the unknown".....start with familiar knowledge and then introduce the new stuff bit by bit, using the known as a stable foundation.......but.......always, always look for feedback. I think that is the part of the loop that has been deliberately omitted. |
| CFWhitman May 23, 2014 11:13 AM EDT |
One thing that I think might be worth noting is that, according to the article, this newest experimental KDE update is much faster than the current KDE. If that's the way it stays this could actually be a positive change. Of course, who knows what it will be by the time it comes out. |
| tuxchick May 23, 2014 11:17 AM EDT |
The KDE folks always claim that the latest iteration is faster. By now it should be faster than the speed of light. |
| jdixon May 23, 2014 12:23 PM EDT |
> The KDE folks always claim that the latest iteration is faster. Very much like the writers of a certain other popular OS/Desktop Interface always claim that the newest version is faster and more secure. |
| CFWhitman May 23, 2014 3:52 PM EDT |
Is the person who wrote the article a KDE person? I didn't really get that impression. He actually ran the current experimental branch and said that it is a lot faster in a virtual machine with limited resources than KDE is on the computer he's running the virtual machine in. Of course, as I alluded to, the alpha, or beta, or whatever this is, is not the finished product, so who knows what they still plan to do to slow it down. They'll probably think of something. They always do. |
| Ridcully May 23, 2014 5:11 PM EDT |
@linux4567........TDE.....revisited. You'll be pleased to know that last night I finally moved myself and got onto the TDE site. Downloaded a live CD for TDE which runs on PCLinuxOS.......I chose that because it is an rpm distro and since I have used openSUSE since 2001, an rpm OS is most familiar. It's fairly "biggish"......1.7Gig....and I have yet to burn it to a DVD, but this is an experience I really am looking forward to. It's a 2013 build, but I would assume I can update if I install it properly. From all the comments I have seen so far, once you head down the TDE path, you never look back to KDE - other than to feel a sense of relief that you are no longer beholden to that group. "We shall see", as the saying is. |
| JaseP May 23, 2014 8:28 PM EDT |
Ridcully,... Is TDE based on QT 3 or QT 4??? I believe that the current KDE 4.x is based on QT 4 (And I'm totally unsure about whether they are moving to QT 5),... But it was my understanding that one of the original goals of Trinity was to keep the old style interface, but stay up to day with the QT framework (could be wrong about that)... |
| Ridcully May 23, 2014 9:10 PM EDT |
Hi JaseP.........with respect to TDE, at this stage I'm a complete novice. I did however, take a quick peek at the Trinity site and came up with this: https://www.trinitydesktop.org/about.php My reading would be that Trinity is still largely with QT3, but has now laid the framework for partial migration to QT4. Linux4567 may be a better person to answer that question. Nonetheless, your "understanding" as regards the original goals of Trinity fits my memories perfectly. What continues to amaze me is that Trinity has survived and is being developed more and more with (apparently) limited resources. There are a few things that I need to ferret out before I decide to move to Trinity. For instance, will some of the software that I must have, including Crossover Office, work in Trinity ? I don't yet know. Also, while I am aware I can run TDE on the latest openSUSE13.1, how does using the TDE affect updates. Will the latest versions of Chrome, FFox or VLC run happily on TDE ? Again, I don't know. One problem is of course, that the "live CD" I have just downloaded is nearly a year old......will it be updated ? I don't know.........One thing I am sure about though, is when I start to play, I'll document my findings. Does anyone know of any good tutorials for the TDE ? I did see on the TDE site a huge list of patches.......I suspect that you can install what you need via the Trinity control panel, from which the present KDE4 user settings panel was "developed". I guess like any new software it will take some time to learn and understand. And "time" is the killer .......always. Oh yes......one last thing........I did notice on the Trinity site that there is a section which deals with QT4: https://www.trinitydesktop.org/docs/qt4/porting4.html I think this indicates very strongly that the Trinity team would like to see developers using QT4 and is giving instructions on how to go about it. Just my take - I may be wrong. |
| cr May 23, 2014 9:28 PM EDT |
...And, meanwhile, I have found that it's quite possible to run at least some Qt4 apps in the TDE environment. I haven't tried many, because the TDE suite has the familiar tools I want, but I vaguely recall there being a few cases where I'll see something in the repo listings, think, "That looks like something to have around" and add it to a Synaptic fetch-run, and only then notice that "It has KDE4 dependencies and it didn't explode." |
| Ridcully May 28, 2014 5:32 AM EDT |
I just fired up TDE on PCLinuxOS.........my first impressions are "fan-flippin'-tastic !!" Standard controls, KMail normal, personal configuration the same style as I used to use before the advent of KDE4 and all the rest of the controls just perfect. I am currently running it on an old single core 1.6Gig CPU laptop as a live CD, but even so, I am impressed. Can't wait to put this onto a good laptop and cruise...........If what I am seeing is correct, you can stick KDE4 firmly in the rubbish tin.........but heck, it's only a five minute exposure.......but it's delightful. |
| JaseP May 28, 2014 7:11 AM EDT |
I'm taking a guarded position on the whole thing. I just recently figured out what the problem was with KDE 4.x and DPMS (every time you run VLC or Handbrake, DPMS snaps back on... & KDE has no good way to kill it), and came up with a solution... That's a major stumbling block that was making me think about what DE to move to when Xubuntu 12.04 goes out of support in 2015 (unlike the rest of the 12.04 'buntus, which go out of support in 2017). Now, I can switch my HTPC/server & my HTPC clients back to Kubuntu 12.04 for another 2.5 years (or just 2 years, after Xubuntu goes out of support). Plus I DO want to check out KDE's plasma med8a center activity (not been a fan of the other activities, other than desktop)... But I think that's only available in KDE versions greater than what ships on 12.04 'buntus... |
| Ridcully May 28, 2014 9:23 AM EDT |
JaseP, out of curiousity, what version of VLC is your KDE4.x running ? The version in that TDE I have just fired up is "Twoflower", so it seems to be a fairly late version that is running on the Trinity desktop. |
| JaseP May 29, 2014 3:24 AM EDT |
VLC on Kubuntu 12.04 is Roseapple... It says Aug. 2, 2013. I did see that someone had put in some patches on a PPA version that allowed for no DPMS reactivations... But at this point it's unnecessary. I've added a user level cron job that uses xset to deactivate DPMS every minute. The real trick is that you have to define the display if you are running the command outside a terminal running on the active display (such as the way that cron does)...env DISPLAY=:0 xset dpms 0 0 0 env DISPLAY=:0 xset -dpms |
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