Here's mine Ken
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Ridcully Apr 21, 2014 3:44 AM EDT |
It's a simple and heartfelt one: Stop this constant "new version upgrade cycle". Or to put it another way, let's have much longer times between new version releases. To me, it seems that as soon as a good version x.xx is released, you get told that version x.xx1 is now on the way and it's going to be so much better. Honest to goodness, I don't want a new version immediately......I want to enjoy thoroughly the version I have just downloaded, which was supposed to be the "bees knees, cat's pyjamas, ant's pants, etc. etc. etc." when it was released - or at least that's what the developers said. And within a few days.......it's not, because version x.xx1 is now on the way and will be released in 6 months time.........Frankly, I'm sick of it. I suppose I am a lone voice but it's my 2c worth anyhow. :-) |
| Francy Apr 21, 2014 3:54 AM EDT |
>>>> I suppose I am a lone voice but it's my 2c worth anyhow. :-) Nope ! You are not a lone voice. I am here all the time. :-) Unless I am mistaken, that's the goal of the Trinity Project. Do a step back to KDE3 and make it better, not bigger and newer things . Please correct me if I am wrong ! |
| jdixon Apr 21, 2014 7:06 AM EDT |
> Frankly, I'm sick of it. Well, if it wasn't for the constant publicity concerning certain projects and the incessant version number increases for minor updates I probably wouldn't care. But given those, I'm forced to agree. The constant barrage of Ubuntu adds this and that articles are a good example. It's like me posting the Slackware changelog with a hyped analysis every time there's an update. I do try to post it when there's an actual release candidate, but otherwise, what's the point? |
| Francy Apr 21, 2014 7:13 AM EDT |
Did I mention that too many times to my liking I find that after an update , my configuration, or part of it, is set back to default. :-( |
| Ridcully Apr 21, 2014 8:26 AM EDT |
One of my pet hatreds on this constantly changing matter is KDE.......version, after version, after version, after flippin' version or sub-version or sub-version.....and each time your display is changed in a host of little ways, just to make sure you aren't comfy and to make sure you have to relearn things. ("Sub-version" was not originally intended as a pun, but after a little reflection, I am very tempted to think along the lines of "subversion"...........) This particular DE seems to change itself so often it's almost like Russian Roulette........and with similar results, as far as I am concerned. Oh, but what would I know ?........I'm just a stupid user. |
| kikinovak Apr 21, 2014 8:59 AM EDT |
@Ridcully : +1 and FULL ACK on that. My company install Linux networks for (mostly) small businesses. It becomes increasingly harder to find a little perennity in all this update frenzy. |
| devnet Apr 21, 2014 11:19 AM EDT |
Quoting:Do a step back to KDE3 and make it better, not bigger and newer things . Seriously, this still? KDE3 was a solid experience in its time...but KDE4 is a HUGE....HUGE improvement. When it was first released, it was buggy as a swamp but it is solid and now sports a smaller footprint than Gnome. I'm sure you've had experience with KDE4 but honestly, since you can make it behave and look exactly like KDE3, what's the problem? Quoting:Did I mention that too many times to my liking I find that after an update , my configuration, or part of it, is set back to default. That's all on your package developer there. If the distribution had a more stringent policy over this, you wouldn't have to worry. As an example, I never worry about this in Arch Linux and have never had it be a problem. Quoting:One of my pet hatreds on this constantly changing matter is KDE.......version, after version, after version, after flippin' version or sub-version or sub-version.....and each time your display is changed in a host of little ways, just to make sure you aren't comfy and to make sure you have to relearn things. This is pretty much based on who packages KDE for your distribution. My KDE4 desktop is the exact same and has been since about 4.1...I think you're roasting the wrong people for this. KDE has nothing to do with changing your desktop's appearance after each version. ------------------------------- Honestly, I don't get it...I don't understand why people bag on desktops. I like both KDE and Gnome. I use both. I prefer openbox most of the time. I see both good and bad for both KDE and Gnome. But I don't understand why people make uninformed comments about a desktop environment. What I mean is...when I found Gnome sucked in Mandriva/Mageia and my experience sucked...I switched to a different Gnome based distribution to see if it was just my distribution that packaged it in a crappy way. When I switched, it made me realize that Gnome was packaged better elsewhere. A Gnome based distribution paid more attention to detail for the Gnome desktop...go figure. So when I wanted to truly see KDE4, I switched up to a KDE4 based distribution...I didn't just install it on top of whatever I was running. When I did this, I saw what an implementation of KDE4 with attention to detail was supposed to look like. I encourage all of you to do the same...I'm sure some of you will claim that you have and that's fine...but I'm almost positive that you haven't in the past year...and I encourage you to revisit it. KDE4 is quite an accomplishment and quite an amazing environment. |
| jdixon Apr 21, 2014 11:57 AM EDT |
> ...but I'm almost positive that you haven't in the past year...and I encourage you to revisit it. Why? XFCE still meets my needs. Why would I want to go out and try out the latest KDE/Gnome versions at regular intervals? It's not like I'm curious or anyone is paying me for the time. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 21, 2014 12:15 PM EDT |
> Why would I want to go out and try out the latest KDE/Gnome versions at regular intervals? It's not like I'm curious or anyone is paying me for the time. Indeed. Trinity for me. The underlying versions of Debian change without notice. |
| devnet Apr 21, 2014 12:20 PM EDT |
jdixon, Because if anyone wants to speak with authority on something...they should go out and try what they're speaking about. If you're not curious, no worries....use what you like...I'm in no way trying to dictate what people use on their own PC with my comment...but understand that you won't be able to make informed comments about the desktop you're *not* experiencing. |
| devnet Apr 21, 2014 12:21 PM EDT |
Bob_Robertson, No one is trying to tell you what desktop to use. It seems everyone needs to go back and re-read my comment. |
| jdixon Apr 21, 2014 12:24 PM EDT |
> Because if anyone wants to speak with authority on something... The only authority on the subject I ever needed was the quoted comments of the KDE dev's demonstrating what complete and total jerks they were, That was enough to convince me I never wanted anything to do with KDE 4. The Gnome dev's had already demonstrated that sometime in the past. |
| devnet Apr 21, 2014 12:29 PM EDT |
jdixon, It's not really relevant to the discussion now is it? |
| jdixon Apr 21, 2014 1:32 PM EDT |
> It's not really relevant to the discussion now is it? Depends on what you think we're discussing, I guess. From your perspective, probably not, and I'll drop the subject. |
| Ridcully Apr 21, 2014 5:29 PM EDT |
Honestly "devnet", I don't give a tinker's curse as to what DE is used by anyone, as long as it suits their needs and they like it. Gnome, KDE, Xfce and so on....use what you want and enjoy and I'll be the first in line to back your choice. My point is that I am sick of the constant upgrade, upgrade, upgrade, new version, new version, new version, new version - and that KDE epitomises this situation perfectly.......And that is all I ever said - apart from the fact that each new KDE version DOES in fact present itself differently. The icons on my panel are not the same as those on yours and it is a mild irritation of "change for changes sake". And since you have triggered me........I shall put fingers to keyboard and write a small article on "My Computer" in KDE.........as for your belief that what we have now is a "HUGE....HUGE improvement.", this one small area of "My Computer" which is so very, very useful, has in my humble opinion, gone totally backwards with later version releases. I very seriously believe that what you get in the latest version (s?) of KDE4 is nowhere near as polished, simple and useful as what you got in 4.6. Bob_Robertson, as always, I am praying openSUSE will release Trinity as an option.......oh, I forgot.....isn't gonna happen because I seem to recall that a key admin of openSUSE is hand-in-glove with KDE......but perhaps another major distro will. |
| Francy Apr 21, 2014 9:27 PM EDT |
@devnet I will make this short. I have certain reasons to loath KDE4. You claim, that it is < possible > the packagers or the packaging system. ( whatever ) and a few other ' opinions '. All fine with me and accepted ( for now ) So, please recommend the KDE4 distro which you think is such a HUGE improvement, and I promise you, hand on my heart, that I will install it on my hard drive, and not only that, I will use it intensively for not less than a month. It's school holiday month anyway !! !! Then I will let you know. If it turns out, that < your > favorite distro is a HUGE improvement over my "daily used" distro , I will make a/the swap. This doesn't mean that I will drop Trinity. Not at all .But I will be honest about it. I will drop/change the KDE4 distro residing on my 3 comps. So, what do you say ? |
| BernardSwiss Apr 21, 2014 9:47 PM EDT |
I think that the biggest, easy-to-fix issue for Windows refugees would be some consistent attention to making sure it's easy for the Linux newbie to add an additional harddrive to their system -- and that they can easily discover this. And I'm not talking about mounting expansion or back-up drives on external USB or eSATA, nor about mounting under /media, but rather, as an integrated drive or partition that mounts automatically at boot, at a user selectable, designated mount point. For example, a user might want a separate "storage" drive devoted to their music and video files, and/or games, and/or a bittorrent partition, accessible to all accounts on the box, or just designated users. Or perhaps they might need a drive devoted to serious, "must-be-kept-separate", work data, mounted somewhere under that user's own /home partition. A nice, standard, GUI tool for easily adding and managing such volumes, that works on -- and is easily found on -- any desktop environment (eg. Gnome, KDE, Xfce, LXDE, and plain X) would have made a huge difference to several fairly computer-savvy Linux newbies I know, who ended up going back to Windows. |
| devnet Apr 21, 2014 11:24 PM EDT |
@Ridcully You should get thicker skin...my response wasn't accusatory nor was it meant to inflame anyone. I'm a distribution developer and I can tell you that all of your problems are not the fault of KDE itself but rather, the distribution developers/package maintainers. One thing you should understand...If you're sick of the upgrade, stop using Linux. There will always be upgrades and patches...it's the nature of the beast. As for 'My Computer', it used to be sysinfo:// inside the file manager on KDE3 and of course, Dolphin is the new file manager...so that didn't work any longer...it was replaced by kinfocenter...however, your package manager should be able to find the KIO Slave Sysinfo and install it again. Then you just create a custom shortcut to that same URL sysinfo:// and you've got your My Computer back. Should take you about 5 minutes worth of work to reverse engineer it. Should you have to reverse engineer it? Yep...because you're using Dolphin and the KDE devs wanted more accurate information available in the information center so they rewrote sysinfo which was as old as KDE2. Think about how hard drives changed from IDE to Solid State drives and how device mappers have changed from udev to systemd...to think you could just roll with sysinfo which had been around from the early days of KDE is a bit naive in my opinion. Now, it might not be your cup of tea but for others, it's might be exactly what they wanted. Either way, you can have your cake and eat it too by following what I've stated above. There are tons of other customizations that bring back KDE3 behavior across the board should you want it. If you'd like to see a distribution that does it pretty well, look at PCLinuxOS. @Francy, PCLinuxOS and OpenSuse do the best implementations of KDE4 with LinuxMint coming in pretty close to those two. If I had to pick, I'd say PCLinuxOS...they see to be having website issues this evening. You can download it here: http://spout.ussg.indiana.edu/linux/pclinuxos/pclinuxos/live... You can use 'Mini Me' which will be a relatively bare desktop that you can then customize. The 'full monty' version has a ton of stuff preinstalled. I use Arch Linux myself...but I'm an advanced user who tinkers...I wouldn't recommend KDE on Arch for a finished product...I really had to customize it quite a bit to get it to where I wanted it. |
| Ridcully Apr 22, 2014 1:11 AM EDT |
@devnet.........It always amazes me how an English sentence can be interpreted in so many ways by so many people. "Thicker skin" ? Devnet, to use the same saying, at the time I wrote my response I was totally calm, collected, thoroughly dispassionate, and didn't give a "tinker's curse". As for upgrades, the answer to your "stop using Linux" is really the statement: "Don't use a computer".....because upgrades are the nature of the beast. Nope......my quarrel was never with you, nor over my calcified epidermis because anything you wrote had never upset me at all (okay ?), it was purely that I reckoned that upgrades and new versions came a bit too thick and fast. And I don't resile from that idea in any way. I'm more than happy to get patches and fixes, but a full upgrade means a couple of days solid work and I can do without that.....and that's the sole direction I was coming from. Your info on "My Computer" has me intrigued. Right now, I am running KDE4.6 and the display for the icon is, in my opinion, all I could wish for. It's apparently running in Konqueror and on KDE4 as well and alongside Dolphin. From my interpretation of your text, the developers developed and what they produced is what you get now - and I don't like it. However, I can appreciate your statement that others might. And last but not least, I am thoroughly envious of your expertise, but I am afraid it is too late for me to travel down the same paths you have taken. I'm a writer not a programmer, but a writer with a very sincere passion for Linux and a desire to see its use expand even more. I guess my problem is simply that once I have something that works and works well, I resent being forced to change even if what I have continues to work. The openSUSE Evergreen project is still supporting openSUSE 11.4 and while it does, that's where I'll stay.........why not ? "Si Non Confectus, Non Reficiat". Hope that explains the lot. :-) |
| kikinovak Apr 22, 2014 1:33 AM EDT |
Well, devnet uses (and develops) Arch, a Linux distribution that has a policy of constant (think: daily) upgrading. If I installed Arch on my client's production desktops, I wouldn't be able to sleep anymore. Instead, I have to rely on a more conservative distribution. I've been using CentOS, Debian and Ubuntu LTS for the job. For the last couple years, it's Slackware all the way on both servers and desktops. I had a brief stint of KDE on the desktop, but even in a simplified layout, my users didn't seem to warm up to it. Now I'm either using Xfce or MATE. Anything with a sane release policy. http://www.microlinux.fr/mled.php |
| Francy Apr 22, 2014 2:21 AM EDT |
@kikinovak I have tried that one some months ago. It was a very rocky ride for me, but I got eventually there...or nearly. However, I think my addiction to other distros was bigger than I mentally could handle. But in the light of recent << annoyances >> ( just trying to stay polite ) I was wondering if I shouldn't try again....sometime...in the very near future. I am getting to old to dance Rock'an'Roll every day. @Devnet Thanks for the recommendations, but PCLinuxOS will not solve my " issues ". My issues are with Konqueror and Dolphin in KDE4. All those " issues"' melt as snow in the sun by using Konqueror in KDE3.5.13.2. Of course , Dolphin there is mentally still a young kid. This ' melting ' is also true if I use ubuntuTDE, DebianTDE or any other TDE BTW, I can use PCLinuxOS with my eyes closed, both Minime and FM, and on top, my own Micro-Me and Fat-FM KDE4 in Mageia gives the same s*t. So does any other Mandrake-offspring. The only one I have never-ever tried is openSuse, for reasons that I always had problems with graphical display ...on installation . So, that's where my install stopped. To round of this post, all issues I have can be avoided my using MC, Krusader, DoubleCommander etc etc. Just to make it clear... I have no <unsolvable> problems , only a nest of bees circling me all time and I never know when they are going to sting me.(( just joking here )) Last but not least, Devnet, thanks for the info above to ridcully. |
| hitest Apr 22, 2014 9:22 AM EDT |
kikinovak, Yep. Slackware and XFCE all the way for me. Slackware releases a new version when it is ready and does not follow a strict release cycle. A new version is released approximately once per year. Slackware is steady as a rock and it just works. |
| devnet Apr 22, 2014 10:04 AM EDT |
@Francy Your issues could be solved by the person packaging KDE4 or Dolphin...packagers can make custom alterations to give KDE4 or Dolphin a different look or feel. I haven't personally tried PCLinuxOS's newest offering...I do find it to be the best implementation of KDE4 out there...Texstar loved him some KDE3 and really worked hard at making it look and feel like older releases of PCLinuxOS. It's sad about OpenSuse because they do a fantastic KDE4 implementation. |
| Francy Apr 22, 2014 10:26 AM EDT |
Devnet I just finished downloading openSUSE-13.1-KDE-Live-x86_64.iso and will install it most probably tomorrow. Then I will see how it works""this time"". The fact that I had issues a few years ago doesn't mean that they still exist today. Many variables have changed. As for Texstar, we know each other on the forum, and he is one of the most helpful persons I know. Me, having a complaint at 13.00 hours, and he fixing it at 13.30 and me downloading the fix at 14.00 hrs. How much better can it get ? But as I said, the problem is KDE4, not the distro and not the packagers. The redrawing of the contents of a renamed folder is a know issue, as half a dozen people have confirmed it. If it happens once....who cares.! If it happens every 3 minutes, it's called a bug. And " they " know about it, and it is extremely annoying....like the bees ! But, whatever, I will try it out in openSuse, and also in the latest Kubuntu, whilst I am at it |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 23, 2014 5:03 PM EDT |
Xfce stays steady, that's for sure. There are distros that don't rock the boat in terms of updates: CentOS/Scientific Linux/Stella, Slackware, the LTS versions of Ubuntu (and family) and Mint, and now Debian, which is offering LTS support for Squeeze and will presumably do the same for Wheezy. My laptop is a year old now, and the frequent updates of Fedora have been very helpful as better Linux support ramps up. That "ramping" should be finished soon -- at least by 3.15.x -- and I could very well settle into an LTS(-leaning) distro like Debian or Xubuntu. |
| CFWhitman Apr 23, 2014 5:39 PM EDT |
I tend to use Ubuntu Studio (it uses the Xfce desktop) on my higher end machines because of the latency and priority settings, and because of the extensive repositories. If I want to leave a machine the same way for a long time, then I just leave an LTS version on it. However, I also have to say that the Xfce version of Salix (basically a more automated version of Slackware) is a very serene experience. As long as you can find a package for the program you want, it's also pretty easy and straightforward. I have Slackware on my server, and I generally have at least one machine running Slackware at all times. In some ways it's my favorite distribution. It just takes more time to get all my software running on the desktop, and I haven't been putting that effort in lately. Debian is another favorite, but you have to be able to keep calm and not be attracted to the latest versions of every piece of software. If you can ignore the fact that you are using slightly older versions of various programs, it's great. Usually that isn't a problem, but occasionally you will become aware of some feature in a program that you would really like to have. |
| dinotrac Apr 24, 2014 3:54 PM EDT |
The KDE developers continue to be jerks? Too bad. Last time I peeked in they seemed to be on the way to good citizenship and KDE itself had evolved into something that was (once again) pretty nice. |
| jdixon Apr 24, 2014 5:33 PM EDT |
> The KDE developers continue to be jerks? IMO, Dino. YMMV. |
| Francy Apr 24, 2014 9:47 PM EDT |
>>>
IMO, Dino. YMMV. You get a +1 from me too. |
| Francy Apr 24, 2014 9:51 PM EDT |
@Devnet True to my word, I tried to install openSuse. Without going into details, this is the biggest flop in the last few years. However, I will try a second time , this time from USB and let you know if the flop is the distro or < good old Me > :-) |
| caitlyn Apr 25, 2014 7:41 PM EDT |
OMG, I find myself agreeing completely with Ridcully, especially his opening post. The endless upgrade cycle every three minutes or so is great for tech writers and those who constantly like to tinker and play with the latest. For the other 99% of us who actually have work to do, it's somewhere between a nuisance and impossible. One of the nice things about not writing about Linux for a couple of years and concentrating on real work for real businesses and government is that I could completely ignore the upgrade treadmill and keeping up with the geeky version of the Joneses. Nobody cares. No sane business manager will run an OS that only has nine months of support. Heck, nine years seems short. A once every six week browser upgrade? That's funny. So... yeah, it's been nice living in Red Hat/CentOS and SUSE Linux Enterprise land. Things are quiet, they are sane, and they mostly just work. If a business has a compelling reason to need the latest something or other (PHP was a good example for one of my clients) then, yeah, I find a trusted source with updated packages or I get to make some myself. Upgrade to the latest and greatest anything? Let the kids play. It's not for me. |
| brideoflinux Apr 25, 2014 11:32 PM EDT |
@caitlyn I really wish the folks at WordPress would get that message. |
| nmset Apr 26, 2014 9:34 AM EDT |
> The endless upgrade cycle every three minutes or so Has any compelled you to upgrade ? |
| dinotrac Apr 26, 2014 11:46 AM EDT |
> Has any compelled you to upgrade ? Yes, in a manner of speaking. Free software does go stale more readily than proprietary. Developers frequently give backward compatibility short shrift. Packages become hard to find. Etc, etc. |
| caitlyn Apr 26, 2014 3:44 PM EDT |
If I were an Ubuntu user that wanted the latest version I'd get all of nine months support and then either I upgrade or get no more security patches. For Firefox it's six weeks. So, yes, there is a compulsion there. |
| devnet Apr 28, 2014 11:19 AM EDT |
Quoting:Well, devnet uses (and develops) Arch, a Linux distribution that has a policy of constant (think: daily) upgrading. I use Arch. I used to be a developer with PCLinuxOS for a stretch of years and was a major cog in MEPIS Linux back in 2003-2005. Just wanted to clarify so that you couldn't back me into the 'He uses Arch so he thinks everything should be that way' corner. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 28, 2014 11:56 AM EDT |
Isn't one of the fundamental aspects of F/OSS "release early, release often"? I'm also remembering the remarkable heat and fury earned by Debian when the Stable release went to around 2 years. So I have to ask, exactly what do people _mean_ by "new version upgrade cycle"? I think it's this: Visual changes. Is anyone going to object to the recent rapid changes in OpenSSL? No, because it doesn't change anything people _see_. Object to kernel versions? No, because it doesn't change anything people _see_. The changes to which objection is given is changes in how the GUI looks. If "# apt-get update ; apt-get upgrade" changed everything yet the GUI looked exactly the same, no one would object to the rapid development and deployment of software versions. And I agree with you. That is why my Mom is using Xfce. |
| dinotrac Apr 28, 2014 4:57 PM EDT |
@Bob - It is. And it's a strength, but...; It's a strength that comes with drawbacks of its own. |
| kikinovak Apr 28, 2014 5:05 PM EDT |
@devnet : let me clarify a possible misunderstanding. What I said about Arch was meant in a descriptive - and not a prescriptive - way. Arch is great, it has one of the best documentations around. But to use it, you have to be able to take some time for an upgrade at least once a week. Otherwise there might be trouble ahead. |
| devnet Apr 28, 2014 5:14 PM EDT |
Kikonovak, I upgrade once a month with Arch unless there is a huge security hole. In that case, I install the security patch and save the standard upgrades for the first Tuesday of every month...I figure since I'm installing MS Patches, I might as well take the time to install Linux ones too :P I like being in the driver seat for when I upgrade. |
| Ridcully Apr 28, 2014 5:29 PM EDT |
Bob_Robertson....I think you may have hit on one of the most important points of all......user friendliness, comfort and familiarity in the GUI - especially the latter. I try to keep my underlying OS as updated and modern as possible with patches etc. Sensible and necessary...no argument from me - and if these come out weekly, so be it and I'm glad to be aware that the developers are looking after me. What I am thoroughly against however, is where or why the window manager developer has the compulsion to change everything in the icons or positions (or summat else) when a new version comes out. Devnet, you've given me my "metaphor" - thankyou. So, It's as if you were driving a car, put it in for a service, and when it comes back, all the controls including the steering wheel are in different positions; instead of pushing some switches in; you now pull them out, the labels on all the airconditioning and audio systems controls are different...........and you sit in the driver's seat and wonder how the heck you are to make sense of all of the situation.......Why the blue blazes should you have to relearn a desktop for heaven's sakes ? As a science teacher, I always knew that to take the kids from the known to the unknown, you had to move in little but logical steps...... Okay, I'm exaggerating, but that's how it feels to me. And as I said above, KDE epitomises this situation. To me KDE4's "little but logical steps" feel like you are jumping from one rock to another in mid-stream and the distances are constantly getting longer - and in different directions into the bargain. It's why I have remained firmly on KDE4.6 because I know just what each part does and where to find it. Yes it's old, but it sure runs smooth as silk and Evergreen keeps it maintained. (Please enclose any bricks in bubble wrap before you throw them......LOL......I bruise easily.) |
| BernardSwiss Apr 28, 2014 7:06 PM EDT |
OK, OK... but what changes would be good for attracting (or retraining) Windows refugees, better than currently? |
| Ridcully Apr 28, 2014 8:48 PM EDT |
Keep it simple and keep it stable.......I'd suggest the best DE would be something that sorta kinda resembles Win7........I've got a few more ideas based on that, but I'll wait for your response. |
| jdixon Apr 28, 2014 9:03 PM EDT |
> I'd suggest the best DE would be something that sorta kinda resembles Win7 Wasn't that one of the goals of LXDE? Or am I misremembering? |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 29, 2014 8:26 AM EDT |
I'm with Ridcully on this. A "theme" for Xfce, LXde, Gnome, KDE, _whatever_, that has as many buttons as possible, and as much "launch with two clicks, select with one click" as possible, that WinXP or Win7 has. Mimic the look and feel that people are accustomed to, and the underlying OS becomes irrelevant. |
| Ridcully Apr 29, 2014 5:10 PM EDT |
Couldn't have said it better Bob_Robertson. Whether we like it or not, the XP/Win7 DE is still the manager employed by a vast number of desktop/laptop users. Microsoft learnt to its dismay that the consumer does have the power of rejection when it went from the familiar to wholly unknown with Win8......And we all know what happened. Our Linux DE's aren't quite that bad (that's a generality), but they do NOT take that Win8 lesson on board and my perception is that they continue to reject stability in the DE presentation for new, new, new, new, (hello KDE).....and it's the little things like familiar icons, and the same ways of doing things with the same presentations resulting that really count. Change the motor by all means, but keep the same controls and in the same positions. And that, I think, is what will really help transfers from Windows to Linux. Surely, there will be hiccups as the Win-user deals with different software and the fact that C: just ain't there no more, but as long as the DE interface is familiar and does the same things, a Win person will feel much more at home. |
| devnet Apr 29, 2014 5:53 PM EDT |
Quoting:So, It's as if you were driving a car, put it in for a service, and when it comes back, all the controls including the steering wheel are in different positions; instead of pushing some switches in; you now pull them out, the labels on all the airconditioning and audio systems controls are different........... Yes but driving is still the same. It really is preference. I used to own a 1985 Buick Skylark that had none of the climate control my Subaru does now...the stereo didn't have bluetooth so my smart phone could plug it in. It didn't have ABS, and definitely had it's issues. Then when I bought my first new car in 2006, everything changed...new knobs, new locations for things. New ideas. Scary stuff. However, I didn't fear that change. Driving was/is still fundamentally the same. I got used to it and now I realize, I do things more efficient since I've learned the new process for doing them...in the beginning, it felt awkward and clunky and slow but now it's second nature and fast. I think you'd find the same thing if you embraced change on the desktop. But, you may not and that's ok. I always call out those people who think KDE4 is bad because, for the most part, it can become so much like KDE3 that my wife couldn't tell the difference...now my wife isn't a Linux user...and that is probably why she was able to not have many issues with KDE3 or KDE4. Anyway, to each their own. Just know that your car analogy doesn't work well in this case but I understand the point you were trying to make. |
| Ridcully Apr 29, 2014 6:11 PM EDT |
Sigh......you can ALWAYS poke a hole in ANY argument......but at least you understand the point. Just to try to make the point even bigger......the idea I had was that the steering wheel would be under your seat, the clutch on the ceiling, the gear shift lever under the dashboard, all the controls to air con and media are now on the passenger side floor with the labels changed completely and the brake is to be found where the chair angle control is placed. Utterly scrambled.......NOW try and drive the blinkin' car !!!!! LOL !!!! :-) |
| Ridcully Apr 29, 2014 6:16 PM EDT |
I went back and looked at what I wrote and I'm still laughing at the impossibility. However, hitting a new version of a DE that changes things, doesn't provoke the same reaction. It's something that seriously needs to be considered by the developers. After all, the distro sinks or swims on the basis of the GUI for a majority of users. CLI simply doesn't cut it despite its speed, flexibility and brilliance. |
| kikinovak Apr 30, 2014 12:55 AM EDT |
Many IT projects, and this is particularly true for the Linux and FOSS biosphere, seem to suffer from some sort of Sisyphus syndrome. Work hard until everything is perfect, then let everything roll down the hill and start over again. Add a frantic release cycle to that, and you get something close to utter insanity. |
| Francy Apr 30, 2014 1:00 AM EDT |
....Work hard until everything is perfect, then let everything roll down the hill and start over again Isn't that called < football > ? |
| Fettoosh May 01, 2014 11:29 AM EDT |
Quoting:Isn't that called < football > ? No, that is called FOSS community, Developers and Users are never satisfied with anything. Keep hacking till it gets better. |
| TxtEdMacs May 01, 2014 11:58 AM EDT |
>> Keep hacking till it gets better. Well that is one interpretation, that too often now is absent in reality. Different is too often the definition of better in the Devlopers' lexicon but results in too many deficiencies on the user's side. Your arguments in the past cited Devlopers' unassailable right to change code, however, when it is other's code and only the name remains the same they should be honest and bring out their own brand. |
| patrokov May 01, 2014 4:44 PM EDT |
My suggestions:
|
| dinotrac May 02, 2014 12:24 PM EDT |
I just thought of an example, too -- When we finally get our land shark on the road (amazing how many things can go wrong when you mate a house and a bus), my better half is demanding a real GPS -- not the one in our smart phones. A GPS that has a nice big screen and needs no internet connection of any kind. |
| Fettoosh May 03, 2014 8:04 AM EDT |
I didn't see the word "Serious" anywhere in your comment so I assume you are kidding, right?Quoting:Different is too often the definition of better in the Devlopers' lexicon but results in too many deficiencies on the user's side. We can win them all can we? Quoting:however, when it is other's code and only the name remains the same they should be honest and bring out their own brand. I wonder why forking is so famous in the FOSS world? They mostly do but there are few who don't follow the rules here and there. :-) |
| TxtEdMacs May 05, 2014 9:02 AM EDT |
You should have known it was serious when I did not address you by the misapplication of your alias as the hated "Footsie", which you found in the past perplexing rather than humorous. I had a name more fitting, but was too cutting. Moreover, in more recent times that name was no longer even appropriate. [P.M. will follow.] Comedy [or humor] even when not done well is serious business. Need I only cite a show that considers themselves to be satirists and purveyors of jokes. Nonetheless, on the stories it focuses on it has higher credibility than the purported news networks in many discerning minds. Were it only a joke. Here is another citation right from LXer that lends weight to the observations I wrote. http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/35383/ In this instance, I am unaffected. I neither use it nor did I have excess affection for it prior to the deleterious revisions. There is an article, which I did not read, that I assume makes a case in some detail. But the latter is a presumption on my part, but reinforced by Mr. Ridiculous whose opinions I respect* and whose works on making KDE useful fill me with awe, despite the inherent futility** of such a task. As always, YBT * Some of the time ** Only to be heaped with derision by those that should have been appreciative of his excess efforts mostly in behalf of their users and by extension to themselves. |
| dinotrac May 05, 2014 2:56 PM EDT |
Shouldn't we be talking about something more meaningful to Linux like whether Princess Leia was using R2D2's command line? |
| jdixon May 05, 2014 5:24 PM EDT |
> Linux like whether Princess Leia was using R2D2's command line? Of course she was. But I think I'll delete my original reason and try to come up with another one. |
| Ridcully May 05, 2014 6:13 PM EDT |
Memo to Ridcully......stay on TxtEdMacs good side or suffer the consequences !! And dissolve in laughter...some of the time. Except when he's being serious. :-) Hey.....No messing about with Star Wars, I love those films. And there is a symphony orchestra doing the music at the moment - even though I'm rather deaf, I'd just about kill to go and listen. As I recall, R2D2 was fed by Princess Leia with some sort of flat memory card in part IV "A New Hope". I know his normal interaction was squeaks and chirps that C3PO could understand - and the rest of us could interpret as "emotion" - especially when he was being vulgar and rude. But I don't think we ever got told how and with what he was programmed......Besides Dino, Leia is related to Linux.......they both start with the same letter, so they must be. Even I can understand that. So go for it Jdixon.....we need a thread on Linux in Star Wars.........errrrr........don't we ? |
| jdixon May 05, 2014 9:11 PM EDT |
> So go for it Jdixon... Well, I think I was right to delete the comment that first came to mind, since LXer is a largely family friendly site. And I think that will be enough to give most of the motley caste of characters here the general idea. :) Well, first off, R2D2 obviously ran an imbedded OS that had to survive hostile conditions and deal with unsafe inputs on a regular basis. You think Windows Mobile could handle that? Not on the best day it saw. And the Mac OS without a GUI is a non-starter. So that leaves Linux as the only possibility for his underlying OS. The Empire would obviously have bolted on some Imperial friendly overrides to his core OS once they took over, probably coded by their version of Larry Ellison's crew, to prevent rebellion by their robotic servants. But their equivalent of the NSA would have required them to also put in an override access code for their use. Leia would have obtained this key from their equivalent of Eric Snowden, and used the command line to gain root access via that key. She would have removed the imperial overrides and the NSA key once she had such access. This alone would go a long way to explaining R2D2's unwavering loyalty to the rebels. |
| Ridcully May 05, 2014 9:21 PM EDT |
Cor blimey Jdixon.....what a delightful explanation. At last the mystery solved....Told you there was Linux involved didn't I Dinotrac ? Are you sure you aren't on the Disney staff and writing the script for the next episode Jdixon ? Seems to me you have far too much hidden knowledge on the matter.....Possibly a retired rebel spy ? |
| jdixon May 06, 2014 6:05 AM EDT |
> Possibly a retired rebel spy ? There aren't any "retired" spies of that level, Ridcully. :) |
| NoDough May 06, 2014 8:05 AM EDT |
Quoting:...Mac OS without a GUI... Umm... that would be OpenBSD. That's doable. |
| jdixon May 06, 2014 8:35 AM EDT |
> Umm... that would be OpenBSD. That's doable. I thought it was FreeBSD based. But my memory isn't what it used to be, and it was never that good to start with. But the plot works just as well with any of the BSD's rather than Linux. The only problem I can see there is driver support for the various and sundry add-ons that would be expected in the field. Linux tends to have wider driver support (though not necessarily better drivers). |
| NoDough May 06, 2014 8:55 AM EDT |
Quoting:I thought it was FreeBSD based. Could be. My memory is a little rusty as well. |
| dinotrac May 06, 2014 10:40 AM EDT |
Oh my.
Rusty memories. What next? Waxy buildup on the processor cores? |
| Koriel May 06, 2014 12:34 PM EDT |
Here are my tips for Linux, please make VSynch work reliably out of the box im fed up of the tearing issues with practically every distro I have used over the last 18 years and this is still true now yes even with KDE 4.11 with which I have been dealing with lately and had to make some file changes to get its synching to work. Its not much to ask, I mean I dont expect DE's like XFCE to fix it as they are kept deliberately lite and use xrender for performance sake but the other heavier DE's need to get this sorted. Maybe these things will get better once Wayland comes along as I hear it does not have any of these issues. And the other issue is Sleep/Hibernate again I have never yet had a distro that has worked on any of my machines out of the box as far as this is concerned. So developers stop with all the UI changes and just get the stuff that matters fixed first. BTW: anyone with tearing issues on KDE 4.11 + NVidia try the following: Add export __GL_YIELD="USLEEP" to /etc/profile, and reboot. Then in KDE Settings>Desktop Effects>Advanced set VSync to full screen repaints and this should fix tearing until they get the bug fixed. |
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