Cough...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| nmset Feb 25, 2014 9:24 AM EDT |
The semantic desktop is the way to go, it's a new concept of organizing data : relationships, mentioned in the article, is the term that didn't come to me in the previous debate about kmail/Akonadi/Nepomuk. The comments from the original article are very interesting. |
| Fettoosh Feb 25, 2014 10:13 AM EDT |
@Ridcully, Here is your chance to put your 2c. Never know, you might get what you want. |
| Ridcully Feb 25, 2014 5:37 PM EDT |
Without any bitterness or cynicism, Fettoosh, what else would you expect from someone who apparently fully backs the team that is producing the semantic desktop and is writing on their site as well ? He has to "rah, rah" the product. You could hardly expect him to say that it's a failure, could you ? Having read the comments and feedback, I'd suggest very strongly that the KDE article is an almost direct response to the three articles I have published even if it isn't coming from the KDE4 team itself. And some of the comments were making exactly the points I made in the three articles. I note Hans Bezemer's comment in particular: Quoting:Ok, the first generation has just failed, users are scrambling to disable it. Lots of articles are popping how with in depth analysis how it works and how to untie it from the KDE4 desktop - and you're going for a second try? It eats resources, not to mention valuable processor time, wouldn't it be smart to make it OPTIONAL this time? Jos Poortvliet's response is exactly what you would then expect: Quoting:........And unfortunately, people are rarely limited by their lack of knowledge when they rant about technologies so a lot of good, innovative technologies in Free Software go nowhere because people just don't realize their potential nor how counter-productive and pointless their 'input' is. From which you can readily surmise that my three articles did shake their tree and the KDE devs didn't like it one bit. Jos' response is a reasonably direct attempt to not only denigrate the articles but also, by very clever innuendo, the standing of the author who wrote them. That response is not only unethical, it's a reflection on the writer and is a classic example of what we call "shoot the messenger". When you get that sort of reaction, it suggests very clearly that there is a very strong element of truth in what has been published. You don't get personal (even obliquely) unless a full refutation is impossible to achieve - and then you behave with honour and STILL do not get personal. Let's face it, I am NOT the only one that thinks the same way - there's a heck of a lot of us that share a similar opinion of the KDE4 semantic "mess". Poortvliet also makes a last point very clearly: The KDE devs are not going to listen to these "inputs" because they are "counterproductive and pointless". You now have it in print; and summed up it says that the KDE4 dev team will not listen. As I have already indicated, they will continue their "march to the semantic desktop whether they lose users or not". In my opinion, KDE4 has now firmly tied its apron strings to "big network and powerful servers". I foresee an article on Trinity sometime in the not too distant future. I note too that Jos Poortvliet is the "openSUSE community manager". That's great for collaboration of openSUSE and KDE4, but it doesn't augur well for the addition of Trinity to the desktop manager list supported by openSUSE.....unfortunately. Even if it is an obvious way to go. |
| jdixon Feb 25, 2014 6:34 PM EDT |
> Here is your chance to put your 2c. >> ...because people just don't realize their potential nor how counter-productive and pointless their 'input' is. I think that says it all about how his 2c would be received. And that's why I no longer even consider using KDE. > You now have it in print; and summed up it says that the KDE4 dev team will not listen.. Exactly. And not only won't listen, but will consider the people who complain problems. I believe the term used was "toxic", but I can't find the article online now. |
| Ridcully Feb 25, 2014 7:04 PM EDT |
Hi Jdixon, I think that what almost angers me about the situation is that in each article I tried very hard to give reasonably constructive suggestions and possible future directions that the KDE4 team could consider. I frankly admit that my concepts of the semantic desktop improved with time, but that in no way lessens my very sincere and good intentions or that my suggestions would be backed by many, many KDE users. I feel that I have already put in multiple lots of 2c worth. Poortvliet's response indicates that as far as KDE4 is concerned, anything I wrote might just as well have been placed immediately into the shredder. That suggests a rather sad and somewhat frightening conclusion: The KDE4 team now has a totally closed mentality where the KDE4 semantic desktop development direction is concerned and they are not going to listen to the user base...........unless that user base is patting them on the back and telling them how wonderful KDE4 is. |
| jazz Feb 25, 2014 8:34 PM EDT |
Hi Ridicully, > Poortvliet also makes a last point very clearly: The KDE devs are not going to listen to these "inputs" because they are "counterproductive and pointless". You now have it in print; and summed up it says that the KDE4 dev team will not listen. As I have already indicated, they will continue their "march to the semantic desktop whether they lose users or not". This reminds me of the Gnome discussions 2 or 3 years ago, with developers dismissing user arguments without bothering to listen. It is obvious all the devs involved are working for the same company and have a job to do. Somebody is paying them to implement semantic desktop, so they cannot listen to any user feedback. It is just bad luck the software they build is total utter garbage. I've just learned about recoll, a desktop indexer and search engine. It is included in Debian "wheezy", so it might be in some other distros as well. It is not controversial, and all the user reviews I've seen are good. http://www.lesbonscomptes.com/recoll/ |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 25, 2014 10:25 PM EDT |
If all they are going to do is not listen, whether they like what they hear or not..then they are not worthy of being spoken too.. |
| jdixon Feb 26, 2014 12:19 AM EDT |
> he KDE4 team now has a totally closed mentality where the KDE4 semantic desktop development direction is concerned and they are not going to listen to the user base They haven't listened to the user base since KDE 4 was started, Ridcully. The attitude expressed by Poortvliet was already in full flower at that time. > This reminds me of the Gnome discussions 2 or 3 years ago, with developers dismissing user arguments without bothering to listen. Pretty much, yeah. |
| nmset Feb 26, 2014 4:44 AM EDT |
>possible future directions that the KDE4 team could consider. That's not the way it goes, for any project. Users don't decide, whether the project is free, open, closed or paid. The devs don't work for users in any case. Users evaluate the project and decide if it suits them. They are free, as much as the devs are free to do what they want according to their vision. >I frankly admit that my concepts of the semantic desktop improved with time, It would have been more logical to write afterwards. Finally, you started with an outdated version of KDE. That was a post-mortem analysis, which cannot be a guide post. |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2014 5:52 AM EDT |
Dear Nmset, I am now seriously annoyed. First, let me start with this: Quoting:Finally, you started with an outdated version of KDE. That was a post-mortem analysis, which cannot be a guide post. Frankly, I am nearly convinced you are being deliberately mischievous. The version on which I tested the "semantic desktop" of KDE4 in all three articles was the platform of openSUSE 13.1 and desktop manager of KDE 4.11.5 which is the latest KDE4 version available on the latest version of openSUSE. That has KMail version 4.11.3 and is most certainly NOT outdated. I compared that very modern setup with my present running system of openSUSE 11.4, KDE4.6 and KMail 1.13.6. I did NOT ever analyse the "semantic desktop" on my present system. I strongly suggest that you withdraw that accusation. In my tests on the semantic desktop in parts 1 and 2, I used the latest version of KDE that was available on the latest version available of my chosen desktop of openSUSE. Have I hammered in that nail hard enough for you ??? Second. Quoting:>I frankly admit that my concepts of the semantic desktop improved with time, Well, of course my concepts improved over time. What on human earth would you expect ? I did not start out as an expert and I finished up as a novice who has begun to understand a bit of the structures involved. I started out in a first article comparing the KMail of KDE4.6 with the KMail of KDE4.11. It was only after that article was complete that I realised that there was more to the matter than I realised and that KDE 4.6 was miles away from the semantic desktop implementation in KDE 4.11 and that it was going to take considerable research to overcome my lack of knowledge. That took place during the next two articles. It is very easy for someone to stand outside the situation and in retrospect be as "righteously and wholesomely critical" as you are. Of course I would have liked to have known about how the semantic desktop worked before I started, but then before I started I had no idea as to how deeply involved the semantic desktop would be with respect to the questions I was asking. Again, this suggests sheer mischievous intent on your part. And Third and finally we come to this little gem: Quoting:>possible future directions that the KDE4 team could consider. I have no idea if you are an actual dev on the KDE4 team, but if you are, thankyou for confirming that any suggestions the user base makes will be disregarded, purely because "that's not the way it goes". I refer you to a statement in the second of my articles "Removing the semantic desktop, ....Part 2". Here is what I said in the summing up section at the end where I indicated that the "real semantic desktop problem is CHOICE": Quoting:The present structure of KDE4 has been developed to produce only the single, "semantic desktop" outcome that is desired by the developers. And of course, we know that that they are free to make that choice, but in so doing, they deprive the rest of us of our choices. Of course, we are free to use, or not use, KDE4 - under the conditions they impose of course. I have already said precisely what you have said: the devs can choose to do as they like and we can choose or not choose to use their product.............WHAT'S THE POINT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE ??? Nmset, either you did not read my article properly, or as I said, you are merely making mischief. The point you miss, thoroughly, is that the KDE devs actually do NEED a user base.....And the user base has spoken very loudly indeed, if we can believe both what I found from actual experimentation and from what others are saying very loudly all over the internet. The KDE devs can choose to ignore this....Well, what is going to be different ? But sooner or later, erosion of the user base will leave them with a product that no-one wants. What price the semantic desktop then ? As I indicated, it may be that it will be largely a product taken up by the "big network, big server" boys.....but the individuals who often pride themselves on running work stations that Windows cannot even run on, will be left out in the cold. |
| nmset Feb 26, 2014 6:39 AM EDT |
When you started, KDE 4.11.x was already dead, 4.12.x was already out, so yes, you were not using recent binaries. >KDE devs actually do NEED a user base Irrespective of users, they won't part from their vision, forget about this. There will always be a user base that can grasp what they are trying to achieve, that's a statistical law. As I said, you seem to refuse to choose, i.e, quit KDE. You will never have futue KDE as you imagine it, i.e, with engraved concepts of the past. KDE 5 will be veeeery different, transparently in the core, and also in the UI. |
| jdixon Feb 26, 2014 7:18 AM EDT |
> Irrespective of users, they won't part from their vision, forget about this. Yep, that's the attitude alright. And some of you wonder why I and some others won't touch KDE. There are enough arrogant jerks out there int he real world I have to deal with. I don't need to add the KDE dev's to the list. > There will always be a user base that can grasp what they are trying to achieve, that's a statistical law. Yes, there will. It's probably one tenth the size of the KDE 3.x user base, but it will exist. Of course, most people would consider a software project which lost 90% of it's users a failure. But then, what do they know, they're just users after all.... |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2014 7:25 AM EDT |
Oh come on nmset, is this the best you can do ?Quoting:When you started, KDE 4.11.x was already dead, 4.12.x was already out, so yes, you were not using recent binaries. A release of openSUSE in November 2013 runs for roughly 2 years and holds what was the latest version of KDE4. Theoretically, of course, you are correct.......In practice, no. Do you really, really, really, REALLY think that KDE4 users update their binaries every time that KDE puts out a new version. I don't think so. However, I'd ask you one last question......be careful. Is it your considered opinion (with proof) that the operations of the semantic desktop, as a whole, in KDE 4.12.x is so different that KDE 4.11.x is now irrelevant ? There will undoubtedly be improvements, but the essentials of the semantic desktop operations will be identical. Oh, and your next statement is GORGEOUS.......I love it: Quoting:Irrespective of users, they won't part from their vision, forget about this. There will always be a user base that can grasp what they are trying to achieve, that's a statistical law. Now, let me refer you to this statement from my article "Removing the semantical desktop....Part 2" Quoting:The issues that I (and others in the threads) have raised in this two part series will have not the slightest effect on the KDE4 development team (and its aims) for the foreseeable future. The arguments raised by all of us will be ignored or set aside by the KDE4 developers as of little or no consequence in their march to produce a "semantic desktop". We agree.......Ummmm.....WHAT'S THE POINT YOU ARE TRYING TO MAKE ??? As for there always being a statistically present user base.....yes, okay, there will be. But what's the good of that if it diminishes. I'd prefer to see it expand. As I have said in the articles again, and again, and again ad nauseum, KDE is my preferred desktop - if I can get it to run in the way I prefer. Oh, and that is usually a matter of finding out which of my choices are the latest to be removed by the KDE4 devs. My daughter Fiona looked at this question and resolved it like this: Quoting:"Reading your article, and freely admitting not being able to understand it fully, it seems that the KDE programmers are going in the same direction as Apple and Windows. YOU WILL have this programming and YOU WILL have no choice in the matter...." You can find her comment in Part 2 and I think she is absolutely right. KDE4 is now the cathedral in Linux...One almost expects to find on their walls little statements like: "We know better !.....Choice is bad ! Semantics are all ! " Quoting:One KDE4 to rule them all; One KDE4 to find them; One KDE4 without vital choice; And in semantic darkness bind them."With apologies to J R R Tolkien. And I have saved the best till last: Quoting:As I said, you seem to refuse to choose, i.e, quit KDE. You really are displaying your lack of reading my articles you know, and if you are arguing against me, you should at least know what I have said. Okay, out of my goodness, here is what I said again in the summation part of Part 2: Quoting:From my perspective, the situation has become much clearer. I am finally asking myself whether or not KDE4, as it has become, is the desktop that is suitable for my needs. Certainly, I can force it into the structure I want, but is it truly worth the trouble, when there are other desktop managers that will give me what I want with far less difficulty ? It remains a large problem question. Do please read the text this time. Oh, if it makes you any happier, I am now looking seriously at another article, this time based on Trinity, so that users (including myself) who want a KDE based desktop manager but cannot stand what KDE4 has become, can move away completely........or perhaps move to Xfce.......anything........except the monster that KDE4 has become. |
| Francy Feb 26, 2014 8:06 AM EDT |
...........I am now looking seriously at another article, this time based on Trinity, so............. Mind to give the link ? ..............except the monster that KDE4 has become. Hmm, it's not a monster yet, but I have put my running shoes next to my desk :-) |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2014 8:25 AM EDT |
Hey Francy.......nice to talk to you.....Hey, gimme a break......The article is currently "festering in my mental compost".....:LOL (I'm a mycologist, right.....fungus....compost...??). I cannot give you a link, unless I can trigger a digital connection to my cerebral synapses......even bigger LOL........I have to write it yet, so it won't hit LXer for a while yet.....but I think it might be useful to quite a few people....If I can get this furshlugginer Toshiba to comply....... KDE's a monster in the sense that it is devouring choice. In all seriousness, that was the conclusion I came to in Part 2 and it was echoed by my daughter as well......and she stands outside the computer world, completely. She just looks in and gives me rather astute comments here and there.......and that comment about the similarity of KDE4 development to the closed cathedral of Apple and Windows is rather breathtaking......and in my opinion, very accurate indeed. If you can get your hands on a complete openSUSE 11.4 installation package, grab it........and then you will see for yourself what KDE4 can be ......without the dark shadow of the semantic desktop looking over your shoulder. KMail just sets up and runs and the whole desktop functions smoothly, beautifully and very, very fast. I have even had Telstra technicians in here who have been positively amazed at the speed I get in my computer operations with this earlier KDE4........And that really is the saddest bit of all......The development that has taken place is now destroying my desktop of choice. I have yet to play with Trinity........and I very seriously want to do so........I strongly suspect it will be the way many KDE users move....... In all seriousness, I am very, very upset over the direction that the KDE4 devs have taken. From all the information I have, it seems as if they have been paid in a grant to take this particular direction and that is that.....I truly don't know for sure and I will be the first to apologise and withdraw those comments if they are not true.... but my perception is that something is forcing the KDE development team along the semantic desktop requirements, and there is not the slightest doubt in my mind that it is an all-consuming goal. Dollars, cents and euros make all the difference........even, sadly, in FOSS. |
| nmset Feb 26, 2014 9:24 AM EDT |
>YOU WILL have this programming and YOU WILL have no choice in the matter.... Yes, that's it, in KDE, GNOME, LXDE, VLC, Apple, Windows, BSD, Oracle... anywhere, really anywhere... because THEY do the job, not YOU, and THEY don't do it for YOU. >Do you really, really, really, REALLY think that KDE4 users update their binaries every time that KDE puts out a new version At least that's what I do, I have the chance that ARCH provides them quickly. |
| jdixon Feb 26, 2014 10:08 AM EDT |
> ...anywhere, really ... Not anywhere. There are lots of programmers who listen to their users. Or maybe I should say there used to be. Of course they wanted their software to be used by people. Preferably lots of people. The more the better. I guess it's possible that you're correct and the current generation of programmers actually all are arrogant jerks who think users are superfluous. It would explain a lot about the current trends. > ...and THEY don't do it for YOU. One has to wonder than, they do all of this work for who exactly? What good does it do to spend years writing a desktop environment that almost no one wants to use? Fortunately, having written off KDE a long time ago now, it doesn't affect my life one way or the other. |
| nmset Feb 26, 2014 11:02 AM EDT |
> ...and THEY don't do it for YOU I meant by this that no one hires them for a job, it's not a question of $, they don't work on request or order. |
| Fettoosh Feb 26, 2014 12:07 PM EDT |
According to latest polls and statistics, KDE is still the most popular. I think KDE dev should be pretty happy about that. Semantic Search (Nepomuk) is still a choice to enable or to disable. KMail is still a choice but tied with Akonadi for the purpose of integrating all PIMs apps. no matter how it is perceived theoretically or practically. Why throw the baby with the bath water. I run KMail without semantic Search and works great. I am sure many are doing the same and happy with it as I am. There are positive comments along with negative ones and I would say as many if not more. We normally don't hear good comments. It is the same as the saying goes in Linux world "No news is good news" The negative comments about semantic search, KMail, & KDE in general are mostly very old and don't reflect accurate assessment of the latest versions of all. Keep in mind that I am not saying they are perfect or there aren't users who have legitimate complains about them. It is always a case of "you win some & you lose some" Normally, FOSS developers write code to scratch their itch, in the case of Semantic Search for Desktop, I believe it was an academic research project funded by the EU, which they believe is going to help and serve a large number of new users in addition to many existing ones. @nmset, Good summation you posted above and fully agree. @JDixon, Good for you and I am glad you found your preferred choice that meets your requirement. @Ridcully, don't give up on giving good feedback, positive & negative. And don't think your feedbacks are not being noticed by the developers because they are not worthy or just because they are negative. I believe when they are making their consensus decisions, they don't see them fitting into their grand plans at this time and might incorporate them later. Or they just can't technically fit them because of conflicts with what they are required to accomplish for a larger number of other users. |
| jdixon Feb 26, 2014 12:42 PM EDT |
> Why throw the baby with the bath water. There is no baby in this case. The baby was stolen by goblins at birth and replaced with a changling (KDE 4.0). Throwing it out is the only reasonable recourse. > The negative comments about semantic search, KMail, & KDE in general are mostly very old and don't reflect accurate assessment of the latest versions of all. Why is it I've kept hearing that ever since 4.0 was released? It's always "use the latest version", but the problems never get fixed because the users never get listened to. > Good for you and I am glad you found your preferred choice that meets your requirement. So am I. One wonders how many users haven't and have gone back to Windows in disgust though. |
| nmset Feb 26, 2014 12:48 PM EDT |
>and have gone back to Windows in disgust though Are users with such a binary frame of mind worthy of the extra work needed to hold them to Linux ? Many have switched to XFCE, LXDE and what else. Someone leaving GNU/Linux simply doesn't deserve it. Let them go. |
| jdixon Feb 26, 2014 1:34 PM EDT |
> Are users with such a binary frame of mind worthy of the extra work needed to hold them to Linux ? I don't know. Are the problems with KDE 4 and the insults from the KDE 4 dev's more than it's worth to stay with Linux? If the dev's are going to ignore you anyway, why not at least go with a solution you know will work? I do know that if KDE and Gnome were my only options, I wouldn't be using Linux at this point. Since those are the two best known options, how many users aren't? > Let them go. Your choice. I'm fairly sure they feel the same way about you. Personally, I'd rather have a Linux solution that works for them. But apparently I'm now a minority in the Linux ecosystem in that regard. I guess they'll just have to use Android or a Chromebook if they want to use Linux. |
| tuxchick Feb 26, 2014 3:41 PM EDT |
Quoting: Personally, I'd rather have a Linux solution that works for them Exactly. Everything else is just excuses. |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2014 5:51 PM EDT |
Thanks Fettoosh....we agree to disagree at times, but you definitely have hit on a major reason I wrote the articles: pure frustration at what was being done to a lovely desktop manager in my opinion and no-one would listen. It seems you cannot, cannot get the developers to even consider what you are saying unless you literally scream in their ears for at least three weeks......and three articles. I believe it is happening now and perhaps some good will come out of it. But even at developer level, there is a refusal to accept what is happening. Here's a real example: Q.....If you turn off the semantic desktop is KMail affected ? A....No. And this is quite right, spot on, accurate to a micrometre....... in a theoretical sense; what they refuse to look at is the practical situation in which the semantic desktop operates. What the developers refuse to accept is that Akonadi is also a crucial element in the running of the semantic desktop. It sits underneath and it's cache is referred to by semantic desktop elements and that cache in turn is developed from (at least) the data file components of the KDEPIM and they in turn are crucial to the semantic desktop data that will be sifted with a query. Those KDEPIM components will NOT run unless Akonadi is active and so on and so on. So, render Akonadi disabled and the structure grinds to a halt. Theoretically, Akonadi is not, not, NOT part of the semantic desktop if you consider only Nepomuk, but it is a crucial foundation stone to that desktop's operations. nmset, you continue to amaze me.. Here's a quote from your post above: Start quote. >YOU WILL have this programming and YOU WILL have no choice in the matter.... Yes, that's it, in KDE, GNOME, LXDE, VLC, Apple, Windows, BSD, Oracle... anywhere, really anywhere... because THEY do the job, not YOU, and THEY don't do it for YOU. End quote. First, if you read my articles properly (and from what you are writing in the post quoted above, I still do not believe you have or if you have, then you switched off at the appropriate points where I diverge from your trodden paths), you will find that my biggest item of discontent at the end of Part 2 is the removal by the KDE developers of choice that was previously present in KDE4. Choice to run the desktop conventionally with the KDEPIM servicing its data files by unix operations or choice to run the full semantic desktop with the Akonadi and Nepomuk components running. And choice to store passwords in KWallet or in KMail itself...Go and read part 2 properly please. And second.....if they do not do it for "YOU" (and here I assume you mean either me or the user base because they are the same), then who on human earth do they do it for ? Some esoteric concept that allows them to put the fruits of their labours at the foot of a "Developer's Deity" ? Or for pure hard cash ? Okay, that's cool, but ultimately they DO need their output to be used and the developer coterie should be hard wired into its user base.. The user base is the area that can give constant and useful feedback and right now we have evidence that not only is there minimum connection of the KDE devs with the user base, they actively ignore any feedback it gives - unless you scream and scream and scream - and most users don't have the time and/or enthusiasm to enter into such an all-consuming project. This blanket denial/dismissal/refusal to listen by the KDE devs is not only unwise, it's destructive. Right now, the situation with KDE4 looks to me very eerily similar to what happened with the release of KDE4.0, and the mass migration of users away from its software. Think about it please......if the devs DON'T listen to and develop for the user base, why are they there and what is their function ? |
| nmset Feb 27, 2014 3:28 AM EDT |
>if the devs DON'T listen to and develop for the user base, why are they there and what is their function ? They don't have a function for any, because their user base do not order work from them, they are not employed by their user base, they are not mandated by any authority. They code by themselves and true, expect to gather momentum from users if and only if users find it useful for them. If the latter expectation is not fulfilled, they would do something else. This is true for closed and paid software also, just look at where Windows 8 is. The contract is : software as is, use at your own risks; it's written everywhere. You can't order anything from them. If one has a request to make, the proper channel is the bug tracker. |
| Ridcully Feb 27, 2014 4:17 AM EDT |
Do you know "nmset", your post above is one of the saddest and most discouraging responses I have ever seen in this whole debate and if that is the way you perceive the situation, then I truly have sympathy and pity for you. It is almost reminiscent of the heartbreaking despondency of a long term "prisoner of war". Such a person has no fight left in them and all initiative has been squashed - you just take the punishment that is handed out by the people in charge. If they care to give you some tasty scraps, then you glow with pleasure, tell them they are great and hope they don't kick you next day - which they invariably do. Well frankly, I don't buy it and I am prepared to fight. A developer base in FOSS should know, in fact, MUST know what its user base thinks of the product. The aim is to expand, not shrink and if the product can be improved by feedback, then that should be given and listened to. The reason I wrote these articles is because it was very obvious that the KDE developers were NOT listening to their user base and somehow, someway I wanted to give constructive and positive feedback....but I've said this all before and it's getting monotonous to have to repeat it to you every few posts. Windows8 got where it is because it stems from a monopoly which began with Win3.5, expanded to Win95, Win98SE and so forth.....there were NO real competitors and vendor-lockin holds the user base even today. You should not compare Windows in any meaningful way with the procedures of a FOSS developer group. In fact it should be distasteful for anyone to do so. The protocols of a closed source "cathedral" developer company are very different to those of FOSS... Finally, I have tried once, a few years ago, using the bugtracker.....yeah, right. Ever seen what happens when you throw a stone into a 300 metre shaft ? You don't even know it has hit the bottom. Besides, a bugtracker is designed to report bugs.....that's how I see it. "Feedback on structures" and "constructive suggestions" do NOT come under the heading of bugs......If the KDE developers seriously wanted constructive feedback then they would have a designated and moderated feedback site - with responses to those putting in the information. I gave up fighting my way through the maze of KDE links, menus and so forth......and eventually walked out. |
| nmset Feb 27, 2014 7:29 AM EDT |
You seem to desperately want to own what's not yours, you can't.You seem to think that whatever you request must be listened to and must be implemented, it won't ever be this way. I repeat, it's true for any software editor. Even if you pay for software, you pay for a license to use it as is and nothing more, it won't ever be your software.If you hire a company to develop software for you, then you can design it ground up as you want, and they will write it as you want and it will be yours. Here, you (me, anyone else...) don't pay anything, can't order any work, and are lucky enough to find tons of software to use gratis : why should one overbear the KDE team ? If one does not like what they do, it's wiser to move to something else than stil expecting what will never happen and shouting at them. Fight ? There's no fight, there's nothing to gain, they have their agenda. |
| Ridcully Feb 27, 2014 8:40 AM EDT |
First: You are merely confirming what I said in my previous post as to how I see your perceptions of the entire developer-user base situation. Again, I see your position with considerable sadness. Second: Do not impute to me something I have never, never, never implied or stated. I do NOT "desperately want to own what's not" mine. Professionally, I am a scientist and what you have indicated above is utterly against my ethics and probity; further, it is without any foundation, pure exaggeration and I am extremely offended by such a suggestion. All I have ever indicated is that I wish to be heard, just as I am listening to you on this thread. Equally, I am sure you would be offended if I did not extend to you the courtesy of listening to what you have to say. In a similar way, I wish the user base to be heard by the KDE developers. But ultimately, it is up to the KDE developers to choose whether they will listen and/or take any action. That is always their right and I will be the first to accept that. The eventual outcome is in their hands, as always. I may not like it, but that is absolute fact. Third: If you wish to adopt what I see as a defeatist attitude, that's your privilege and right. Go for it. Fourth: Fight ? Hah !......nmset, I have good reason to believe I have already very firmly won. And I am not going to explain that any further. Fifth and finally.....this debate between you and I is now utterly pointless. I've said all I wish to say and my perception is that you are simply regurgitating your same stale arguments again and again so that I have to respond in new and different ways. Let's leave it. You will not change my concepts, and to be honest, I don't have any desire to change yours since you obviously wish to stay where you are. Thankyou. Post Script......Do please nmset, read a short story from Rudyard Kipling's wonderful book "Plain Tales from the Hills". The short story is called "Pig". It explains very nicely why I will be unlikely to respond to any further material from you. It's a very clever story by the way. |
| jdixon Feb 27, 2014 10:33 AM EDT |
> You seem to desperately want to own what's not yours... He wants the software he uses on his machine to meet his needs. He doesn't own the software, the devs don't own his machine. > If one does not like what they do, it's wiser to move to something else Actually, I agree. And I've done so. Where I disagree is that you seem to think that the KDE devs are deserving of anything other than contempt. By treating former devoted users as a captive test base for use in developing their grand vision, treating those who had legitimate complaints about the software as the problem, and insulting them in their responses; the KDE devs lost any right to any degree of respect, either as developers or people. And the current responses to Ridcully's writeups show that nothing has changed in that regard. |
| nmset Feb 27, 2014 11:23 AM EDT |
>Ridcully's writeups Unfortunately, and it's the central problem, the writeups breathed a profound misunderstanding of the semantic desktop as implemented in KDE, about the way to use kwallet so that it does not get in the user's way on a 'stand-alone" PC, about akonadi becoming a core architectural element by design. We may like, dislike, request, write, complain, propose... but we can't say : I want KDE (or other stuff) and I want it this way. |
| tuxchick Feb 27, 2014 12:30 PM EDT |
Quoting: We may like, dislike, request, write, complain, propose... but we can't say : I want KDE (or other stuff) and I want it this way. We can say whatever we want. You really don't need thousands of words to tell how you don't want people to disagree with you. |
| jazz Feb 27, 2014 12:49 PM EDT |
@nmset I would say you are right if this was another corporate open source project, where the corporation is paying for a number of features irrespective of user wishes. Unfortunately KDE bills itself as a community project, and users expect something different form a community project. People who contributed to the project, and feel frustrated with the direction the project has taken, have a right to complain publicly after spending time submitting patches, translations, artwork, bugs etc. I would suggest you read a little bit more about community projects, how they work, and what should be the interaction between the corporation financing the project and the community. Also get your friend Jos Poortvliet to do some reading on the subject as well. |
| Ridcully Feb 27, 2014 5:01 PM EDT |
@nmset. Unfortunately, you have a profound misunderstanding of what I published and what it means. Those three documents are written and based on experimental evidence and they show perfectly the problems with the KDE4 software that involves the "semantic desktop" even obliquely. They demonstrate the foundational function of Akonadi and the interfering operation of KWallet. The point I have made to you again, and again, and again ad nauseum is that what is in those articles is what actually happened and demonstrated by illustrations. I continue to be amazed at your refusal to acknowledge this simple fact: if you disable Akonadi then the KDEPIM software (KMail, Kontact, Kalendar, etc.) collapses/freezes and if that package collapses so does the semantic desktop which depends on that sql data cache in whatever form the cache data happens to take. Read the articles again. I proved it by actual computer operations and any denials you put forward simply don't add up. Oh yes.....one last thing nmset, no matter how you cut it, Akonadi is central to the main problems with the KDE4 desktop. It's constant operations slow the desktop down....Its operations are essential to the data required by the semantic desktop. It is so integrated that if you delete Akonadi, you destroy the desktop and re-installation is the only cure. What is so frightening about admitting these facts - they have been demonstrated in the articles ? Jazz, that's a great comment, and one that nmset and Poortvliet would do well to consider. Post script.....Sorry Tuxchick, I meant to put this in as well, but you beat me to it and very nicely too. Nmset, I have EVERY right to say what I think about KDE4 development directions and to make suggestions. And I most definitely can say how I would like the package to operate.....Whether I get what I want is another matter, but I definitely have the right to say what I think. JDixon has also fingered another problem very nicely too. The fact that the KDE4 team is virtually ignoring the user base shows arrogance and contempt. As I have indicated, developers need proper feedback if they wish to produce a product that the user base wants; not just me, but all of us. Right now, there is not even a proper channel for such feedback, and I have looked for it on the KDE site. |
| nmset Feb 28, 2014 3:37 AM EDT |
>if you disable Akonadi
>Akonadi is central to the main problems with the KDE4 desktop But you must not touch Akonadi ! It's a core component by design. Would one disable one or two pistons in his car engine ? Would one replace glibc by bionic ? >It's constant operations slow the desktop down No, this cannot be reproduced faithfully. I use KDE on more than one machine and I really cannot say so. Nepomuk used to be a CPU burner in the early days of it's integration in KDE but that's no longer the case. |
| Ridcully Feb 28, 2014 5:58 AM EDT |
> But you must not touch Akonadi ! It's a core component by design. Would one disable one or two pistons in his car engine ? Oh that's not so !!!!! Of course you can disable Akonadi......I showed how it can be done in Part 1. Once that file is modified, Akonadi is halted. And it is NOT central to KDE4........it is ONLY central to the operations of the semantic desktop. The rest of the desktop is now open to the user to be set up in any way they desire. The KDE4 desktop is ONLY destroyed if you uninstall Akonadi......Go and read Part 1 for heaven's sakes. You are arguing from points that have already been shown to be incorrect by my researches. >It's constant operations slow the desktop down No, this cannot be reproduced faithfully. Again, that is not so !!......Person after person on the internet is reporting how much better KDE4 works with Akonadi disabled. Once you have Akonadi out of the way, you can do whatever you jolly well please to the desktop; install other email clients, etc. What you must however do is uninstall ALL members of the KDEPIM because they will still fret after Akonadi. And that tells you one more thing: those additional KDEPIM members are automatically running......and the user of the desktop has not requested that to be the case. |
| Francy Feb 28, 2014 5:59 AM EDT |
...................It's a core component by design.
>>3 years ago it was small core, now it is big core :-) ...................I use KDE on more than one machine >>>so do I . to be exact, on 7 partitions.t ..................Nepomuk used to be a CPU burner in the early days of it's integration in KDE >>> It still is on low ram machines And with this, I am out. Too hot a conversation for me :-) |
| Ridcully Feb 28, 2014 6:40 AM EDT |
@Francy.......never be worried about giving an opinion on this site....whether it is "hot" or "cool". Everybody should be able to put an opinion and the more the better. I am certain that everybody will welcome anything you have to say. My "dramatic rebuttals" immediately above are purely because the gentleman/lady concerned has had the evidence put in front of him/her in so many different ways now that it has become cumulatively "flippin terrifyin' " and yet still there is a persistent denial of what has been proven experimentally to be the case......there !! I promise to turn off my "yellin at yer" shift key. :-) LOL. Postscript........and just for you, I have removed the shouts in the above post........ :-) :-) |
| nmset Feb 28, 2014 10:40 AM EDT |
>uninstall ALL members of the KDEPIM But I want KDEPim ! And KDE just rocks, no bottlenecks anywhere. Are you misusing the software ? Ok, you'll say many others are saying as you, I would say used to say as you, for none of these have said same with latest release, in fact, none of the yelling voices have tested the latest release. > The KDE4 desktop is ONLY destroyed if you uninstall Akonadi That's what we call a core component, you have to live with it, like it or not. |
| Fettoosh Feb 28, 2014 12:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:Would one disable one or two pistons in his car engine ? Actually, it is the Crank Shaft of the engine that links all the pistons (PIM's Apps - KMail, Kontact, Kalendar, etc.) to work in unison with Semantic Search. :-) Could it be removed? NOT if you wanted to have all PIM's apps. (KMail, Kontact, Kalendar, etc.) integrated and working together for better management and searchability of personal information. KDE devs know what they are doing, PIM is really really important for the business word and is becoming more so for individuals. How else can we explain the popularity of smart phones & tablets. Its all about access to personal information now a days. Quoting:No, this cannot be reproduced faithfully. I use KDE on more than one machine and I really cannot say so. Nepomuk used to be a CPU burner in the early days of it's integration in KDE but that's no longer the case. That is my experience too. Like I said before, on my Toshiba NB205 that has Atom N280 1.66 GHz processor with only 1GB of memory, I hardly uses notice Akonadi. Quoting:Oh that's not so !!!!! Of course you can disable Akonadi. That is correct and you did show it @Ridcully. On my netbook, I have Nepomuk disabled and when I boot, Nepomuk (Semantic Search) it is not running and neither Akonadi. but when I launch KMail, Akonadi is automatically started. when I exit Kmail, Akonadi is stopped but its children processes/threads are still there. But CPU is not heavily used just like when KMail was running and hardly noticeable. Quoting:..................Nepomuk used to be a CPU burner in the early days of it's integration in KDE >>>It still is on low ram machines That is true for any application when physical memory is all used up and and system start faulting (swapping) pages. Quoting:> The KDE4 desktop is ONLY destroyed if you uninstall Akonadi No, KDE4 desktop is not destroyed. It would have been nice if Kmail would have been independent from Akonadi but that is not the case for various reasons technical or otherwise . Many users who don't want PIM just go with other mail agent and still enjoy and love what KDE offers them by having KMail/Akonadi disabled. On the other hand, many users want, need, & require PIM integration, and that is the whole idea of KDE trying to accommodate to as many users as possible. Its KDE superb reconfigurability that is unique in KDE. May be we all should read this recent article. And please let's not keep going in circles about this issue. |
| Ridcully Feb 28, 2014 5:04 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh.......last sentence.........AGREED !!! And gladly - there will be no more from me on this thread. |
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