Who uses a mail client anymore?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tuxchick Dec 14, 2013 2:39 AM EDT |
I'm feeling a little dinosaurish, as it seems most people I know use Gmail, or some kind of smartphone thingy. I miss KMail a lot. It used to be my most fave mail client ever, but when it got Borged into kdepim it wasn't usable for me anymore. Now I use Claws-Mail and it's pretty nice. Please tell me I'm not the last person using a standalone mail client :) |
| Bob_Mesibov Dec 14, 2013 4:10 AM EDT |
No, tuxchick, you are not the last Linux user with a standalone email client. I use Sylpheed myself and the last two people I migrated to Linux took one look at Sylpheed, saw it as 'just like' the Outlook Express they used to know and depend on, and got happily Sylpheeded. One of my email accounts is with Gmail, and Sylpheed connects to Gmail and gets me my Gmail messages. |
| Ridcully Dec 14, 2013 5:57 AM EDT |
Nope Tuxchick, you are not alone. I also prefer to use my "personal email client". Currently it remains KMail......but then I am also using the KMail version found in openSUSE 11.4 which is the version of KMail BEFORE it got "developed out of its tiny mind and became the behemoth that it currently is". I realise that I am "bl...dy minded" over this but I am utterly fed up with the KDE KMail developers who keep on thinking that development means adding more and more complexity until the software breaks. I don't want Nepomuk, I don't want Akonadi, I don't want PIM, I don't want Kontact......I just want a simple, reliable, email client. KMail was once that client.....Now, it's a blankety blank mess of interactions, dependencies, KWallet, and so much software "muck" that I am dreading trying to figure out what has been done to KMail in the KDE version that comes with openSUSE 13.1 - which I downloaded last night. In my opinion, KMail was an elegant, very effective and simple email client which has now been sabotaged by its developers. KMail has become so obstructive to effective and productive use that I am actually considering a shift to Evolution or Thunderbird. If there was one thing I could ask of the KMail development team it's this: Go back and look at KMail in KDE 4.6.00. That is what I am currently using and it WORKS and works well. Couldn't you supply a version of KMail in your latest versions that works like the above version, and allow the user to add whatever "bells and whistles" they want ? It might make a lot of people a lot happier. Post Script........Oh yes........and just in case any KMail developers do actually happen to look at this thread, the version of KMail I am currently using is: 1.13.6 There are a few tweaks I'd like......for instance to be able to always have the last email in the file opened rather than the last selected, but that's a minor thing. |
| alc Dec 14, 2013 6:51 AM EDT |
I don't remember when I started using Thunderbird, but it was a long time ago. I never saw any reason to change. |
| the_doctor Dec 14, 2013 9:16 AM EDT |
Quoting:Please tell me I'm not the last person using a standalone mail client :) You're not. I use Thunderbird. |
| Francy Dec 14, 2013 9:32 AM EDT |
Thunderbird. |
| tuxchick Dec 14, 2013 11:43 AM EDT |
Ridcully, I agree 100%. I used KMail for years, starting way back in KDE3. It was a sleek little powerhouse that made it easy to manage multiple accounts with multiple profiles, and dead-easy to create and manage filters. Nice easy contact management, pretty easy to set up encryption-- it just worked. I test Thunderbird every few months, and it's shaping up nicely. It was the orphan of the Mozilla empire for a lot of years so I didn't feel I could count on it. But now it looks good. |
| cr Dec 14, 2013 12:01 PM EDT |
/me raises hand Mutt on the qmail server, an ancient spin of Sylpheed otherwise. Neither is particularly good at handling HTML in email and I like it that way. Remember when Good Times was an Internet hoax? btw For those who aren't aware, last time I checked Claws was Sylpheed on steroids, same codebase, just stable vs unstable... So the T-bird people have someplace to go if MozillaCorp takes the T-bird awaaaaayyy. (Dunno how good it is with HTML these days; haven't cared to look.) |
| tuxchick Dec 14, 2013 12:03 PM EDT |
I've been running openSUSE 13.1 since it was released. It's really nice, as it always is. KMail is now tied to kdepim, so I'm afraid you're stuck with Akonadi-kwallet-etc. sigh. The other dealbreaker for me is KMail is unusable over an SSH tunnel. I don't know what they did to it, but latency is like a million billions :) |
| tuxchick Dec 14, 2013 12:17 PM EDT |
cr, thanks a lot, now I have a Beach Boys earworm. |
| gus3 Dec 14, 2013 12:18 PM EDT |
I'll raise my hand on behalf of my parents, who use Seamonkey. |
| cr Dec 14, 2013 12:22 PM EDT |
tc, me too until it shorted to a Suburban Lawns one. Shall I see if I can find you a "Gidget Goes to Hell" youtube link? >:) ..I'll let the ops DeCarlinize that one. Done. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPoPhqCMYhg |
| kikinovak Dec 14, 2013 2:59 PM EDT |
I've been a KMail user until KDE 3.5.10, then I switched to Thunderbird. Right now I'm running it in KDE 4.10.5. |
| tuxchick Dec 14, 2013 3:24 PM EDT |
Good one, cr :) |
| Ridcully Dec 14, 2013 5:27 PM EDT |
Thanks for the comments Tuxchick. Again and from my favourite soapbox, it comes down to this: developers want and like to develop. I have no problems with this provided what they produce is better than what they started with. For instance, better package stability, bugs fixed, enhancements in how the package operates that remain intuitive and give better control over its principal aim. However, it seems to me (and especially with KMail) that the developer's "better", is not equivalent to what I would call "better". For me, the principles of a good software package are always: simplicity and elegance (the latter hard to define, but anyone who uses software intuitively knows what I mean), freedom from bugs, ease of use that is almost intuitive, similar controls to previous versions, enhanced productivity, and a software focus on the principal aim of the software package. I cannot think of one of those principles that the KMail developers have not broken. My perception is that the focus of the package is now on: desktop searches, contact management and calendar appointments together with enhanced personal security via KWallet that is so overcomplex one nearly spits the dummy trying to work out what the heck one should do. The setup is (to me) cumbersome and complex compared with the simplicity of earlier versions and once you start the software, its associated filing system seems to put the files "cur, new" and "temp" in every conceivable place on your desktop (and I DEFINITELY did not ask them to do that) as well as making new locations for storage of your mail files which you can only find out about by moving into account setup and noticing that things have altered.......and frankly I'm fed up. I don't want KMail to be a search and sorting program with calendar appointments added on, but that is the direction the developers seem to have taken it by their welded on linkage to Akonadi and to some extent, Nepomuk. And finally, my impressions at importing previous mail files into KMail are gloomy. It's messy, mucky and may or may not work. And if you are trying to import mail files from the earlier versions such as I am using, you cannot......purely because the earlier version has NO way of exporting the compressed file required as an import by later versions, or at least that I can see. Catch22. The saddest thing of all is that the KMail developers in their undoubted enthusiasm for developing have now produced a software package that is a "turn-off" not a "turn-on". I haven't yet looked at KMail in openSUSE 13.1, but from all the comments I am seeing, I shan't bother and will move directly to Thunderbird. Why bother using a software package that destroys ease of use, comfort and productivity ? In my view, a previously loved piece of software now seems headed for obscurity purely because the developers produced a package they wanted - not what the users wanted. As it currently stands, I could NOT recommend KMail to any newcomer as a good, simple, effective email client. |
| tuxchick Dec 14, 2013 5:34 PM EDT |
You make a great point about importing-- that's the #1 most important feature when you want users to adopt your software, and especially email. It should be one click easy: find your existing mail store and import it without backtalk. Especially if it's a Linux format like mbox, maildir, or mh. That shouldn't even need a click, it should be automatic. |
| CFWhitman Dec 14, 2013 6:35 PM EDT |
I use Thunderbird with Davmail to connect to the Exchange server at work, though I admit to sometimes using the Outlook installation on my Windows XP virtual machine. I look at my personal Gmail account through many devices, so I usually am using either a Web interface or Android Gmail, but my accessing it through an email client certainly wouldn't shock anyone. |
| Ridcully Dec 14, 2013 7:41 PM EDT |
And before I put the soapbox away, I'd add one more thing. The way I see KMail now, it is a "monolithic package of enormous complexity which tries to do all things and really succeeds at none because of its complexity and confusion." Again, as Lil Abner said: If I had me Druthers, I'd druther KMail had been left more or left as it was in version 1.13.6 although tidied up a little. BUT, what the developers could have done was to put the other package of Kontact, PIM etc. off to one side and enabled that package to "look into KMail" and use that KMail as a data source to do what they wanted without disturbing KMail's basic function.....KMail would then have remained a package whose primary focus was receiving, compiling and sending emails......and all the other stuff could go ahead without interfering with that basic function. It's now all welded into a horrible whole and how I wish this particular path had never been chosen.....but that's just me. Others (especially the developers) see it differently. |
| jdixon Dec 14, 2013 10:47 PM EDT |
> Mutt on the qmail server, an ancient spin of Sylpheed otherwise. I use elm for most of my mail and Thunderbird (set to connect to my mail spool via imap) on the rare occasions when I need to read html mail. I get the mail from my provider with fetchmail. |
| jdixon Dec 14, 2013 10:54 PM EDT |
> what the developers could have done was to put the other package of Kontact, PIM etc. off to one side and enabled that package to "look into KMail" and use that KMail as a data source to do what they wanted without disturbing KMail's basic function Or at least made the additional functionality optional. There's no reason they shouldn't allow you to turn it off and just let KMail be a simple email client again. |
| Ridcully Dec 14, 2013 11:10 PM EDT |
Jdixon......that is definitely another option and a good one. It has been used for such things as the bells and whistles options for pretty, pretty window decorations and functions in KDE4 - you can turn the lot off and your processing speed increases. Same with Nepomuk......but if you try to touch PIM/Akonadi, KMail collapses - or it did when I last tried. Essentially, what we are saying here on LXer in this thread, has been said again and again. One would think that the developers would read anything to do with KMail that turns up on a site such as this, but if they are, I have no evidence that it is happening. So it's grouch with little effect.......Nevertheless, if the KMail developers want to lose another very unhappy user, so be it......Once Evergreen no longer supports openSUSE 11.4, KMail will probably be ditched as far as I am concerned. |
| BernardSwiss Dec 14, 2013 11:10 PM EDT |
"The Unix Philosophy" has become a faltering memory in the surviving ranks of "the old guard", and the fresh blood can't even imagine that there's anything there that they need to learn from, or would be wise to. |
| lietkynes Dec 15, 2013 1:03 AM EDT |
I stick with the gmail client. I have tried many mail clients to results that I deem lesser of an experience. Here are a few reasons why I use the gmail client: 1. They try to innovate with new paradigms, many of which increase productivity...namely automatically generated tabs (with smart content), labels, etc. Now, I know that other (native) clients use labels as well, but in gmail they work better...see reason 2 for an example. 2. You can use gmail very effectively without having to rely on a mouse. With a few key combinations, you can tag, label and archive an e-mail. This is truly effective, even when you use a mouse. e.g., select a mail, click on "label" and start to type the name of the label...it will auto-complete amazingly fast. 3. Available everywhere. I am a big enemy of the "cloud", but I think that for some services, being in the browser has too many advantages (based on the modulo operandi). Having a mail client that you can rely works the same on all operating systems...is nice, to say the least. This is particularly true in a service that generates so much data that can only be sorted semantically. 4. Less clutter than the nearest contenders. Granted, Geary is nice...but in terms of features that allow easy organization...it falls short. 5. The mobile counterparts follow the same paradigms and allow the same efficiency. If I ever find a native e-mail client that is as efficient for me as gmail is...well, I will switch in an instant. For now, I see too many cons, and few pros. Honorable Mention: Mutt looks awesome, but I've tried using it before, and it just doesn't integrate well with my gmail account. |
| Ridcully Dec 15, 2013 8:02 AM EDT |
Just for fun, I installed openSUSE 13.1 on a test drive earlier this evening. Got it going without the fancy screen displays and it runs very quickly. Then installed Thunderbird. The setup was so fast and simple that I had it running within two minutes. No worries about wallets, files, etc. There's a lot more of the "frills" to be completed, like layouts, plain text only for most purposes, size of font, etc. etc......but all of those are found in the various menu options. I am impressed. |
| jimbauwens Dec 15, 2013 9:17 AM EDT |
I've switched several years ago from webbased clients to desktop clients. I've been using Thunderbird/Apple Mail happily. I still use webclients (squirelmail, gmail, etc) to access my data when on remote locations, but that's about it. |
| DrGeoffrey Dec 15, 2013 10:58 AM EDT |
True confession here. I was one of those who switched entirely to the web based gmail client. That is, until I obtained a better appreciation for Google's complicity in the NSA dragnet over all things internet. Now I am back to Thunderbird for all e-mail, and NOT routing my campus e-mail through Google. Will this matter to the unethical snoops at the NSA? Almost certainly not. But, backdoors can be exploited by those with far less honorable intent than the NSA, and it was at the behest of the NSA that such backdoors (i.e., illicit access) were so readily granted by Google. Perhaps Google had no choice, but they clearly did not fight against it very hard, and I do not have to be a willing participant. |
| jdixon Dec 15, 2013 12:25 PM EDT |
> I still use webclients (squirelmail, gmail, etc) to access my data when on remote locations, but that's about it. If you must have webmail access for when you're away from home, squirrelmail is the cat's meow. |
| notbob Dec 15, 2013 12:51 PM EDT |
I usta use pine, but needed a GUI message user agent (MUA) cuz of always exchanging photo files with a buddy. Now I use Seamonkey. I prefer using an MUA cuz I have more than one mail submission agent (MSA) and they're a pain to log into, online. I must be that "old guard" Bernard refers to. With the exception of graphics, which require the latest pig GUIs, I still prefer the CLI and constantly look for better *nix-like utilities. That python app, pms, which LXer recently made me aware of, is now my primary music app. It's somewhat limited, but there's a lotta music out there and I don't need to see any of it. ;) As for KDE and the over developement of almost everything, it is becoming a real problem, as I pointed out in my Windowfication thread. Despite moving to a slightly faster mobo/cpu, my entire desktop runs slower with the newest version of Slack. That's never happened before. May be time to change distros, if I can't pare Slackware down sufficiently to run faster on this old hardware. I think it's time to abandon KDE and find a replacements for krita, okular, and gwenview. I'm considering a leaner meaner browser, too. Any suggestions? |
| penguinist Dec 15, 2013 1:04 PM EDT |
People, the issue is not whether you use a gui mail client or a cli client. The big issue is on whose server do you trust your mail. Gmail is more than a client. Gmail is a server controlled by the NSA compliant Google! Think about it. For me, there will be no compromise. I control my own server. I control and use my own cloud. I control my own email. Whether I use a gui client like squirelmail, thunderbird, or a cli client like mutt, is irrelevant as long as you own and control your own data. |
| DrGeoffrey Dec 15, 2013 1:19 PM EDT |
Quoting: I control my own server. I control and use my own cloud. I control my own email. That is my goal. However, the pervasiveness of the NSA's snooping (and existence of unethical backdoors) raises questions as to whether even this approach will be truly effective. All any of us can be certain about is that we can try to make ourselves a PIA. After all, locks do not stop criminals, they just make your neighbor's house more attractive. |
| cr Dec 15, 2013 2:46 PM EDT |
Quoting:I think it's time to abandon KDE and find a replacements for krita, okular, and gwenview. I'm considering a leaner meaner browser, too. Any suggestions? http://www.trinitydesktop.org/ |
| tuxchick Dec 15, 2013 3:19 PM EDT |
Krita, Okular, and Gwenview aren't analogous to KMail because they're not dependent on kdepim and kwallet. They require the base KDE libraries, but that's nothing new. Just like GNOME apps require the base GNOME libs and ugly GTK libraries. Krita is an especially fine software-- it's the real "Photoshop killer". |
| Ridcully Dec 15, 2013 6:14 PM EDT |
Tuxchick....during the openSUSE 13.1 installation, I did the usual on-line up date at the end......I was candidly amazed and startled at how many patches had the name "akonadi" in their title line. I suppose it might be worth trying to stop or block Kontact and PIM from serious operation even if you cannot uninstall them. KWallet you are stuck with.....or were the last time I looked. I even managed to approach the developers a year or so ago over this KWallet business and got a blunt email reply that "we are not going to return to the previous insertion of a password into KMail memory"....it could have been equally phrased as: "KWallet is what WE want and KWallet is what you are agonna get - wedda you like it or not !" From memory, you can virtually disable KWallet by putting a return code in at the two places for the actual KWallet password storage. The last time I did that, KWallet opened automatically anytime you wanted to use KMail. The saddest bit of all is that if you could remove PIM/Kontact and KWallet, KMail itself is now very, very, very nice and I think it is still quite superior to Thunderbird. Postscript.......I read what I had written above and realised I had almost but not quite said one more thing: What the KDE developers of KMail are doing is removing your choice - and choice is a keystone of Linux. Of course, they would then say: Well, you are free to choose KDE or some other desktop manager; but that is not the point. What they are doing is removing your freedom to use the software in a way that you wish to use. And that takes us back to the points made by Jdixon........you should have the freedom to turn these things off and revert to a simple, uncluttered email client. |
| Bob_Robertson Dec 16, 2013 10:03 AM EDT |
TC, I'm using Trinity-DE, with the ancient and venerable Kmail you write so highly of above. I expect if for some reason Trinity goes belly-up, I'll move to Thunderbird. I won't use the "new" Kmail because of its various "improvements" that have ruined it. |
| number6x Dec 16, 2013 11:07 AM EDT |
Thunderbird. Every time Gmail, Yahoo mail or Hot Mail change their web interface I seem to get more converts. Why deal with learning a new interface when you can just rock steady with a mail client? K9 mail is OK on Android as well and has a cute DW related mascot. |
| Fettoosh Dec 16, 2013 2:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:What the KDE developers of KMail are doing is removing your choice - and choice is a keystone of Linux @Ridcully, What about developers? don't they have the right or deserve a choice too? I stopped using KMail a while back, but to my knowledge, and I could be wrong, they preserved the option to using MiallDir along with a database. I am sure some users also stopped using KMail for the same reason you & I did, but I am also sure that many users like how KMail was incorporated with PIM and where Contact is going. I believe those users have a choice too. About KWallet, I can't say much about how it is tied with KMail, but KWallet can be totally disabled, like many other feature in KDE, never to bother you again. Like I said, that might not be true at all for KMail since I don't use it. I might check it out sometime. |
| jdixon Dec 16, 2013 2:23 PM EDT |
> What about developers? don't they have the right or deserve a choice too? It doesn't look to me like anyone has been denying them their choice. > ... but to my knowledge, and I could be wrong... About KWallet, I can't say much about how it is tied with KMail... Like I said, that might not be true at all for KMail... I might check it out sometime. Why don't you do that? I'm sure Ridcully would be happy to use it again if it's possible. |
| Bob_Robertson Dec 16, 2013 3:45 PM EDT |
Fetoosh, > they preserved the option to using MiallDir along with a database News to me. I didn't like KDE4 for several other reasons, but this was a real killer, the Kmail database. If it wasn't actually _required_, that's a step up. Sadly, I'm using Mbox rather than Maildir, so it doesn't solve it. |
| skelband Dec 16, 2013 4:01 PM EDT |
Thunderbird user here. I do use the Yahoo web client, but gradually getting more and more hacked off with it. |
| Ridcully Dec 16, 2013 5:20 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh
Quoting:What about developers? don't they have the right or deserve a choice too? Of course they do, Fettoosh, and your statement is what I call a "red herring". This has NOTHING to do with the right of choice of the KMail developers. They can (and do) choose to do whatever they like.......but I cannot, I am not a developer. My choices are limited by the software they put in front of me and how I can operate that software according to choices they have made. Right now, they are taking my choices away by their very deliberate choices. In other words, the developers are telling me that they already know my personal preferences and they can make choices better than I can. Frankly, that is arrogant and thoughtless on their part. For instance, you should be allowed to choose whether you wish to use KWallet, or simply store the mail password in KMail itself. Right now, you cannot, but there was a time when you could and I never felt my email security was threatened as a stand-alone user by not using KWallet. Certainly you can completely disable KWallet but that has undesirable results because the current version of KMail in openSUSE 12.3 will NOT allow you to store your password inside KMail itself. So, with KWallet disabled, you then have the situation where you must insert your password each time you try to download email. Earlier versions of KMail (such as version 1.13.6 of KMail) allowed you to store the password inside KMail, and then you don't have that mucking about each time you want to use the software. Again, a choice has been taken away from me. Or let's look at Akonadi/PIM/Kontact. Right now you are forced you to use it. If you don't, my recent experiences at disabling Akonadi indicate that KMail becomes inoperable. But there was a time when KMail operated very, very nicely WITHOUT Akonadi/PIM/Kontact. Why should I not have a choice to switch all of that muck off and revert to a simple and very effective email client like KMail once was. Again, a choice has been taken away from me. I rarely disagree with you Fettoosh, but on this occasion we must agree to disagree. I do NOT like my personal choices being removed from me to the extent that a crucial and previously well known and very well liked piece of software has become so mucky and messy that I should have to consider dumping it all together. As I indicated above, all the developers needed to do was to include the options of using or not using each of these "add-ons" - because that is what they are from the perspective of a simple email client. Instead, they have chosen to force those "add-ons" onto the user. NOT NICE !! And the saddest point is one I make again: KMail itself is now a beautiful email client - I like it very much in its latest form in openSUSE 12.3. It's the forced "add-ons" that have destroyed its ease of use, deployment and productiveness. For those that want them, fine.......but those that don't should be able to disable them, forget about them, and revert to the simplicity of the earlier versions. Thought for the Day: Normal people believe that if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Software developers believe that if it ain't broke, it doesn't have enough features yet. I'll let the KMail developers draw the inference.....just insert in the above line where needed. |
| tuxchick Dec 16, 2013 6:15 PM EDT |
Exactly, Ridcully. When you want people to use your creations you have to build them to be useful to the actual users. That's what makes successful FOSS projects successful, and everything else too, from clothing to homes to cars to books to everything. |
| jdixon Dec 17, 2013 7:16 AM EDT |
> Frankly, that is arrogant and thoughtless on their part. And there you have the summation of both KDE and Gnome development over the past several years. :( |
| Fettoosh Dec 17, 2013 10:22 AM EDT |
Quoting: Again, a choice has been taken away from me. Quoting:It doesn't look to me like anyone has been denying them their choice. One's Choice/Freedom ends at the Choice/Freedom of others. There is no absolute Freedom, it simply doesn't exist. Besides, choice hasn't been totally taken away since there are multiple alternatives to Kmail. When we committed to using FOSS, we knew very well that it is evolutionary and software is inevitably going to change. Developers could accommodate as much as they can, but sometimes tough decisions have to made. Never know, things might change again. Quoting:Why don't you do that? I'm sure Ridcully would be happy to use it again if it's possible. No enough spare time, When I have it, I will be glad to do that for Ridcully, |
| jdixon Dec 17, 2013 10:25 AM EDT |
> Besides, choice hasn't been totally taken away since there are multiple alternatives to Kmail. And if you have to give up KMail, you might as well give up KDE while you're at it. There are multiple alternatives, after all. Though to be fair, with Gnome following in KDE's footsteps and ignoring their existing user base with the development of Gnome 3, fewer than there once were. |
| tuxchick Dec 17, 2013 12:16 PM EDT |
Fettoosh, I see you're still stuck in the same old invalid "take it or leave it haha too bad luser" philosophy. |
| Ridcully Dec 17, 2013 4:34 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh.......Quoting:Besides, choice hasn't been totally taken away since there are multiple alternatives to Kmail.And in those words, Fettoosh, you acknowledge that I am correct in saying that some of my choice has been removed. Thankyou at least for taking that step. I disagree with you again however. This is not "developers accomodating the users as much as they can", this is the developers doing the complete opposite and either removing previous choice of the users, or adding on aspects that the users never wanted. And as for "accomodating the users".....how ? Did they survey "we humble users" to find out what we wanted ? I cannot recall being asked for my opinions, although I gave them my views on the KWallet business a year or so ago and was essentially told to shut up and go away by a member of the KMail team. In my very humble opinion the KMail developers should realise that is not a good way to win friends and influence people. I don't want to get into a serious brawl with the KMail development team, but somehow, someway, surely a thread such as this might get into their consciousness and indicate to them that things are not all "smelling of roses" in the KMail user camp. It's not just me who has this opinion either...If it was, then I'd be the first to say I'm a grouchy old "so 'n so" who is whinging because his favourite toy has lost a wheel. But that is not the case. When you get person after person of the high calibre of the Linux users who have contributed to this debate mostly picking up a common "thread", then something is terribly wrong with either or both KMail and its development processes. And of course there are alternatives to KMail, I know that already......and why do you think that I am already exploring those possibilities (eg Thunderbird) as I have indicated in one of my posts above ? My irritation is that if the KMail developers were really offering good user-based choice in the operation of their software, I wouldn't have to do that in the first place !! I am seriously considering writing an article based on this thread and what it is exposing about the KMail team's concepts, and as an "out of the left field" extra, the "kpat" card games package which continues to annoy me enormously because it is to me a classic example of the extremes that are possible through software "overdevelopment". The common thread in both is that the developers continue to develop until the elegance and usefulness of the original package is lost. Post Script. Fettoosh, I re-read your post above and hit something which I again quote here because its implications startled me: Quoting:Besides, choice hasn't been totally taken away since there are multiple alternatives to Kmail. You appear to be saying that the KMail team's removal of choice doesn't matter because the KMail team gives me the freedom to reject their product and use something else instead. Are you implying that is what the KMail team actually wants as a user option ? Probably not.....but it is an interpretation that is open to the reader. Almost as if the KMail team itself was saying: "You don't like our product, well, big deal. Ha ha....go use something else." And now I am echoing Tuxchick in her comments above. |
| Koriel Dec 17, 2013 6:27 PM EDT |
Been using Thunderbird pretty much since it came into existence and still am. |
| jdixon Dec 17, 2013 11:32 PM EDT |
> Are you implying that is what the KMail team actually wants as a user option ? That seems to be the only reasonable interpretation of his comment, yes. If you don't like it, leave it. Thunderbird, Sylpheed, and Claws (a derivative of Sylpheed, as I believe was mentioned above) all seem to be good alternatives. Even Evolution had it's good points, but it's so tied to Gnome that I've given up on it. Now that I finally realized all I need to do to get Thunderbird to work with my normal mail spool is to enable the imap server on my machine and connect to it, I'm happy with it. |
| Ridcully Dec 19, 2013 5:48 PM EDT |
I've been considering writing on KMail, but as I said to Bob, if I do, I'd better get things right and here's an example of how you can be caught. As a correction to what I said above about KMail 1.13.6 and exporting files, I have finally found out (after 2-3 years of using this version), how you do it and one kicks oneself when one finds out because once you know what to do, it is obvious and everybody sorta kinda looks at you and reassesses your intelligence levels - me included. First, there is no archiving or export option available from the main menu bar - and where else would you go if you were looking for this ? Further, if you right click on "Local Folders" in the left hand side menu tree, you get a submenu which is different - but again, there is no export option. Persevere though and right click on each of the subordinate folders (inbox, outbox, sent-mail, etc. etc.) and you WILL get an archive option which produces a zipped up file for each subordinate folder in turn. You cannot simplify and run the whole lot at once by exporting "Local Folders" as a single massed file archive, but at least there is an export function. I haven't yet tried it out by importing the results folder by folder into a later KMail version, but it's an area that is wide open now for evaluation/exploration. My apologies KMail team on this one archiving aspect. The function was there all the time; it was just that I wasn't looking in the right place. It doesn't alter what you said on this aspect Tuxchick, but it is satisfying to know that there IS a way to slowly get earlier emails into the later KMail versions.....or at least that's how it seems now. |
| mbaehrlxer Dec 23, 2013 11:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:the developers are telling me that they already know my personal preferences and they can make choices better than I can. Frankly, that is arrogant and thoughtless on their part. the developers are telling you that if you do not agree with their choice then you are not their target audience. (unless they are actually claiming that you are the target audience, but are still not meeting your needs, which i don't know as i have not followed kmail development at all) at least when i look at my own projects, that's how i feel. yes, i am willing to entertain user requests, but only if they fit into the vision i have for the project. any requests that i don't like will only be done if i get paid for them, and if i can fit them in without negatively affecting something else that i want or need. as a user you are free to choose from what is there, make your own contribution or pay to get something else. you do not have the freedom to make demands from the developers. (even if you are paying i still have the freedom to reject your offer) i realize this sounds harsh and unfriendly. which is not my intention. unfortunately maybe because english is not my first language, i am lacking the vocabulary to say the above in a more friendly manner. if someone is willing to educate me as to how to express this sentiment in nicer terms, i am open to suggestions. the above holds true at least for any project that was created to scratch the developers itch. as i said, i don't know if that is the case for kmail, so what i write should not be applied to it specifically. such projects also don't need to be popular to be successful. they are successful as soon as it stops itching. one project (the first one which i wrote myself from scratch) is not even released yet, and it will only be published, not when it is ready, but when i am ready to handle user feedback. it all comes down to what the itch is. if the itch is to serve as many users as possible then listening to users should come naturally. if that is not the case then either the goal is something else or the developers may be thoughtless after all. (and from the looks of it, it may well be that this is the case for kmail, or even kde or gnome in general. but at least for gnome it is also a question of which users to listen to. i know there are users out there that like gnome3, at which point the whole notion that gnome devs are not listening to their users becomes questionable. which users are they not listening to?) a developer who ignores users and fails is arrogant. one who ignores users but becomes successful is a visionary. greetings, eMBee. |
| Fettoosh Dec 24, 2013 9:34 AM EDT |
Quoting:And if you have to give up KMail, you might as well give up KDE while you're at it. If that is the user's choice, then let be. It would be like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Quoting:Or at least made the additional functionality optional. There's no reason they shouldn't allow you to turn it off and just let KMail be a simple email client again. Of course they could have, and it is quite possible they thought about that, but for some reason didn't find it to be a viable option. One reason could have been lack or resource to support two apps. or to much complication added. Quoting:I see you're still stuck in the same old invalid "take it or leave it haha too bad luser" philosophy. TC, I am sure I am not, but the fact is, as eMBee eloquently explained it, it's a matter of developers taking care of an itch. If it help cure your itch too, great, if it doesn't and we are unable to accommodate yours, we are sorry. Quoting:the developers are telling you that if you do not agree with their choice then you are not their target audience. Well said eMBee. |
| jdixon Dec 25, 2013 10:18 PM EDT |
> It would be like throwing out the baby with the bath water. In your opinion, obviously. I came to a completely different conclusion. So far the KDE dev's have done nothing to indicate I was wrong. The few KDE linked apps I use run fine from within XFCE. |
| Fettoosh Dec 28, 2013 12:56 PM EDT |
Quoting:I came to a completely different conclusion. That is your prerogative as much as it is mine or anyone else to have their opinion. Developers would/should never try (again my opinion) to prove anyone else being right or wrong. They offer the fruit of their work and it is up to us to use it or use someone else's. Quoting:The few KDE linked apps I use run fine from within XFCE. That is exactly what I meant by saying they try their best to accommodate for users' requests and wishes within reason. I believe GNOME, KDE, and FOSS developers in general mostly try to accommodate for every one but the fact is that, it can never happen because users preferences are very diverse. As Ricky Nelson - Garden Party song goes, "you can't please everyone so you got to please yourself". In my opinion, the great number of features and high level of KDE reconfigurability is a good proof of their commitment to please as many users as possible. But, they obviously can't win them all. Happy new year everyone. |
| Ridcully Dec 28, 2013 7:17 PM EDT |
In principle, Fettoosh, I agree with you 100%.....where we must disagree is when I see what has been done specifically to KMail. Firstly, choice has been removed and secondly, a new search regime has been enforced. Oh sure, I have tested Thunderbird as an alternative and it will work very satisfactorily for me, simply because it is like KMail as it once was: simple, effective, easy to install, and uncomplicated in usage - though I'd be the first to agree that I'd still prefer KMail and in principle, KMail as it was in version 1.13.6 . My concept of the situation is that the developers have added and added and added and complicated and complicated so that instead of being something better, a software package ends up worse than you had before, and I stress that KMail is NOT the only software where this has been done. When options are bluntly removed, then the finger DOES get pointed at the developers and before you react explosively, I consider Developers as a group to be the salt of the earth .....we don't have anything at all if they don't produce and I am the first to thank them and acknowledge the debt. There is however, a fine line that they need to walk: "Always, what comes out of an "improvement" from their perspective must also be seen as such by the users. If users walk away from their product, what price development ?" Thankyou for the greetings and they are most cordially reciprocated. |
| eldersnake Dec 28, 2013 10:31 PM EDT |
I use the embedded Mail client in Seamonkey... Which I suppose is rather like Thunderbird, since it shares a large amount of it's code, but as I use Seamonkey most of the time as my browser, the integrated mail client which pops up instantly seemed to make sense. |
| jdixon Dec 29, 2013 3:19 AM EDT |
> That is your prerogative as much as it is mine or anyone else to have their opinion. Absolutely > They offer the fruit of their work and it is up to us to use it or use someone else's. Exactly. And I've chosen someone else's. > In my opinion, the great number of features and high level of KDE reconfigurability is a good proof of their commitment to please as many users as possible. And in my opinion, their responses to users during the release of KDE 4 showed their true opinion of users. I've seen nothing to change that conclusion in the past several years. |
| Ridcully Dec 29, 2013 4:07 AM EDT |
Jdixon, I realise of course that in my post I said I agreed with Fettoosh 100%, and I don't retract that but I confess I was looking at his statements in a very general way in so far as he stated: 1. Developers would/should never try (again my opinion) to prove anyone else being right or wrong. They offer the fruit of their work and it is up to us to use it or use someone else's; and 2. I believe GNOME, KDE, and FOSS developers in general mostly try to accommodate for every one but the fact is that, it can never happen because users preferences are very diverse; and 3. In my opinion, the great number of features and high level of KDE reconfigurability is a good proof of their commitment to please as many users as possible. But none of these points of agreement remove the flaws that I have also pointed out in my post above. Also, "a huge number of features" is not necessarily good either. I recall reading somewhere that Microsoft Office is now so complex in its abilities that it can virtually do anything - but what the vast majority want is something that can take down script, edit it and save it. In other words, most of the Office features are unused by the majority of users. KDE4 is very similar. It is loaded with stuff, but I can make KDE4 behave in a very similar fashion to KDE3.5 and so from my simplistic viewpoint, my requirements are satisfied....In all honesty, I would love to know what cohort of KDE4 users actually employ some of the "add-ons" that have been thrust into KDE4 in order to improve their workspace productivity. I cannot see how the window effects would do anything for me other than slow my computer down......and I always turn them off immediately. It's all matters of opinion and "one man's meat is another's poison". And so while I cannot help but agree with Fettoosh on those aspects I have listed above, I also cannot refute what you have written, for I have felt the same way myself over the years...especially when KDE3.5 was "consigned to the tip". |
| jdixon Dec 29, 2013 10:12 AM EDT |
A fairly good summary Ridcully. I have no doubt the KDE 4 developers are following a clear vision of what they want their desktop to be, and are working diligently to get there. Within that vision, they are apparently doing their best to cater to as many user needs as possible. Unfortunately, that vision has nothing to do with what I need from a desktop. Nor apparently what you need from an email client. And our needs don't matter to them, because they don't fit into their grand vision. Which is fine. They don't support what I need and I don't support them. That's they way this is supposed to work. There are apparently enough uses who do like what they produce to make them happy. Now, Fettoosh seems to think they're doing good work and should be praised for it. He's welcome to do so. Since their work has no positive impact on me and they've made it clear (I believe toxic users was one of the phrases used) what they think of users who don't fit into their vision, I don't see any reason that they do. Essentially, I'll thank someone when they scratch my itch that I can't reach, not when they scratch their own. XFCE fits that bill. KDE doesn't. Neither does Gnome 3. |
| notbob Dec 29, 2013 1:35 PM EDT |
> XFCE fits that bill. KDE doesn't. I pretty much agree. KDE has been going away from a lotta users, eliminating some great utilities (quanta+) and adding a lotta garbage (akonadi, nepomuk). I'll not be installing it again. Unfortunately, it does have a few great utilities like k3b, ocular, gwenview, and dolphin. I don't use the KDE WM/DE, preferring fluxbox, but I use 3 of those utilities, quite often, and occasionally dolphin. What are good substitutes? |
| Ridcully Dec 29, 2013 4:23 PM EDT |
Spot on Notbob with respect to the general thrust of your second paragraph as far as I am concerned.....Apart from the calculator (which I use sporadically) K3b, Ocular, Gwenview and Dolphin are essential KDE items for me as well. Well designed, intuitive, do the job perfectly and all credit to those developers. Terrific stuff. Generally speaking, the rest of KDE4's "accessory packages" and all it's view modes have no use for me, except for email which is essential. While KMail will still do the job when it is put back into simple mode without all the frills etc., it's entanglement with KWallet and KDE search engines have undone its original elegance. I don't know of any substitutes other than Gnome's Brasero for K3b, and of course you can return to Adobe Reader - but I wouldn't. I do like the KDE4 personal settings manager - when you can find what you want. Changing the home screen to a nice image and adding new fonts are a breeze. |
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