flashback fallback whatever
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| jsusanka Sep 30, 2013 5:52 PM EDT |
The recent announcement that redhat is going to use gnome failback for their next enterprise release speaks volume about gnome and their priorities. Thanks gnome devs you guys rock I hope you enjoy your desktop environment because apparently you will be the only ones. |
| fnoss Sep 30, 2013 6:49 PM EDT |
I genuinely do thank the gnome devs for their hard work. I use gnome 3 as my desktop and find it perfectly usable. More so then gnome 2. Of course, many of us (not me apparently) build their work-flow around specific tools which relate to specific desktop environments. If you do that, inevitably, at some point in the future, things will change (evolve as FOSS does) enough that it will detrimentally affect your work-flow. The best way to avoid these interruptions in your work-flow is to not become dependant on a single way of doing things. As such, you won't ever feel the need to get angry at other peoples choices as they won't affect you so much. In other words, take control of your computing environment. We all use Linux because it affords us the ability to do exactly that, right? Or are you saying that everyone should do as you like and nothing else? |
| mbaehrlxer Oct 01, 2013 2:27 AM EDT |
while that's true, it depends on how complex your workflow is. i am doing what you suggest by reducing my workflow to the lowest common denominator, which is a text terminal. i can therefore tolerate working with almost any GUI, by simply ignoring it. however when i make actual use of a GUI i find some features are critical to effective working. for me that is smooth and fast desktop switching, as is only provided by compiz. i tried metacity with compositing, kde and i also had a chance to try unity. but none of them worked the way i found usable. and note that this has nothing to do with the overall design of the desktop, the way to start applications, search, etc, is all secondary as that's not done that often, but while i work i do switch back and forth between windows frequently, so that matters, and here, for me, compiz is the only one that does it in a manner that is smooth, fast and compatible to the the way i used to switch desktops in fvwm and twm before, which neither kde or unity do. metacity does it somewhat similar, but not exactly the same. so yes, it is possible to limit yourself, but it becomes hard, when there is another way that you know to be more comfortable. greetings, eMBee. |
| jazz Oct 01, 2013 9:47 AM EDT |
Quoting:The best way to avoid these interruptions in your work-flow is to not become dependant on a single way of doing things. The best way to avoid these interruptions is not to use Gnome 3. There are lots of other desktop/window managers to choose from. Gnome 3 imposes a cellphone workflow, it will not help if you are in a competitive situation and need to make a living. |
| fnoss Oct 01, 2013 4:02 PM EDT |
@mbaehrlxer
Sure, there are some things which cannot be done without using specific parts of a desktop environment. It's also true that complex work-flows require a great deal of learning and as such, aren’t easily modified or transferred. However, the vast majority of common interactions on your computer such as finding files, editing documents, developing, number crunching etc... are done through applications and not the DE. Usually, changing a few shortcut keys is all that's needed to modify your work-flow enough to use a new DE. If you modify one small part of a complicated work-flow, the changes become easier to swallow. Surprisingly, gnome 3 doesn't change that much compared to v2. the only major difference is a missing task bar. but v3 has a task screen instead. just punch a button and your open applications can be easily recognised and selected. There is also the infinite customisability of extensions. Sure, they don't all work together, and the gnome extension API isn't yet consistent enough between releases to be considered good, but the potential is amazing. Personally i consider gnome 3 to be a great addition to the Linux desktop space. Thank FOSS for the diversity which keeps making things endlessly interesting. @jazz That is also very true. I did mean to include other DEs in that statement too. If it does not suit you or anybody else, then it should not be used! However, do not let other opinions affect your own. You might miss out on something great!! |
| jazz Oct 01, 2013 7:01 PM EDT |
@fnoss: If I read your post correctly, you have two pro-Gnome arguments: 1. Set your workflow in a such a way so you don't become dependant on a single way of doing things 2. You are missing something great I don't know if you realize, but #1 is illogic. Workflow means a way of doing things, you cannot set your way of doing things independent of the way of doing things. It doesn't make sense! Don't worry to much about #2, I have tried it. On your screen you are supposed to have a single window open, so you can concentrate on a single task. It works fine for small devices such as cellphones and tables, For a desktop you need something more intelligent - Mate, LXDE, Xfce, etc. - something that can manage multiple windows in the same time. |
| mbaehrlxer Oct 01, 2013 8:27 PM EDT |
fnoss, not sure if you noticed, but i actually agree with you for the most part. i am just trying to point out that sometimes you can get stuck on a single behavior that becomes crucially important. for me that is switching between apps. that just has to be blazingly fast. i haven't tried gnome 3 yet. so the jury on that is still out... greetings, eMBee. |
| fnoss Oct 01, 2013 8:34 PM EDT |
@jazz Not illogical at all. A work-flow does not have to be set in stone. For instance, my workflow to achieve X is to go through steps A B and C. where steps A B and C each allow for the use of many different applications/DEs designed to do roughly the same things. Its a dynamic workflow. One which allows me to be independent of designers/developers decisions. By the way, I just happen to use gnome and like it. my reference to work-flows was independant of gnome3, and by saying "You might miss out on something great!!" I was suggesting that you should not allow other peoples opinions to cloud your own. As in, "try it for yourself with an open mind". If you want though, here are a few reasons why I use gnome3 instead of others... 1, It is made completely from FOSS. No corporate licensing issues to consider. 2. The gnome devs are actively pursuing much better user control / privacy by the deep and transparent integration of TOR and encryption. 3. I do not need to touch the mouse whilst navigating around it. 4. Extensions can and will continue to replace every bit of functionality people enjoyed in gnome2. 5. gnome shell is effectively a gnome-do replacement. 6 Theoretically, themes are very easy to create and relatively unrestricted by the underlying code. Although many of these benefits are found in other DEs (I could list a few more) I find gnome 3 intergrates them better. |
| jazz Oct 02, 2013 7:30 AM EDT |
Quoting:(workflow) which allows me to be independent of designers/developers decisions. False, you are stuck with the workflow your designers/developers implemented. It is a single-window cellphone workflow, very uncompetitive, a waste of time for most people using a desktop. Quoting:1. It is made completely from FOSS. No corporate licensing issues to consider. Seems to me an internal RedHat project. Nothing wrong with that, however, nobody else is pursuing it. And they have lots of competition from 30+ other window/desktop managers. Quoting:2. The gnome devs are actively pursuing much better user control / privacy by the deep and transparent integration of TOR and encryption. Sorry, not interested. I handle my privacy myself, why should I trust some developers who have no idea what a desktop workflow should look like? Quoting:3. I do not need to touch the mouse whilst navigating around it. You can go back to the console if you like it, I have different plans. Quoting:4. Extensions can and will continue to replace every bit of functionality people enjoyed in gnome2. Extensions are breaking with every single Gnome release. There are also reports of JavaScript engine losing memory. Quoting:6 Theoretically, themes are very easy to create and relatively unrestricted by the underlying code. Themes are breaking with every single Gnome release. Nobody was able to carry a single Gnome theme in the last 3 years. |
| fnoss Oct 02, 2013 8:46 AM EDT |
sorry eMBee, bit of a muddled reply. To much food in my belly and no blood left for my brain. You are most definitely right about small parts of a GUI becoming unavoidably critical to workflows. If switching applications and workspaces at light speed is what’s needed, and I'm sure you know this already, perhaps the best way is to remap the DEs/WMs default shortcut keys to your own. Unfortunately, I've never used fvwm or twm and don't recall how I used compiz, though assigning single key presses to workspace switching in which ever WM you might be using seems like a good start. As for application switching, that's a little more involved. With gnome shell being so bad at this out of the box, there is an extension or two which greatly helps with this. First, speeding up animations is a must for me so the "impatience" extension allows me to do just that. Then you have the "window navigator" extension, which allows the assigning of keys to workspace and application selection, such as "#" for workspaces and "Alt + #" for applications within the selected workspace. (Unfortuntely though, this extension doesn't seem to play well with dual monitor setups yet). Then, if you'd like applications to be opened in a specific workspace, in a specific state, there is "Devil's Pie2" http://www.gusnan.se/devilspie2/ which is independent of DEs or WMs. At the end of the day, depending on how much time you're willing to spend, editing config files in any DE/WM can usually yields exactly the results needed. And considering most DEs/WMs stick around for a fair while, its unlikely you'll have to redo things very often. |
| fnoss Oct 02, 2013 9:09 AM EDT |
@ jazz It is clear you don't like gnome3 and that's fine. Whether it's because you have genuinly tried to solve your own personal grievances with it technically, or are simply unwilling to try, I couldn't say. Though If I had to guess, it would be the latter. I've always found that complaining about things never solves problems, just compounds them. Perhaps if you spent some time trying to work through them, you might not feel so frustrated. As for the extensions and themes breaking every release. This is true to some extent. Much more so in earlier releases. However, the longer gnome3 is around, the more stable the APIs become. There will be a point where only very minor changes to extensions/themes will be needed in order to keep them working. At the moment, things are still unsteady as the gnome devs are still experimenting. As for workflows, the fact that GNU/Linux is made of config files means that you can customise. Of course that means you are not stuck with what the developers hand you. |
| shem Oct 02, 2013 9:48 AM EDT |
fnoss, please go lookup what gnome3 (shell? gtk?) developers think about extensions and themes in their precious DE... There's a reason both breaks with almost every single minor gnome3 release. |
| jdixon Oct 02, 2013 10:56 AM EDT |
> Though If I had to guess, it would be the latter. Yes, I'm sure it would. I'm sure the Gnome 3 devs feel the same way. Just as the KDE 4 devs did before them. |
| fnoss Oct 02, 2013 12:20 PM EDT |
@shem I know what was said. it is true that some of the gnome devs are hostile towards 3rd party themes/extensions. This is because they want to try and bring stability and consistency to a desktop they have developed. However, and let me be very clear here, extensions/themes break because the gnome devs have not yet reached that desired level of stability and not because they are trying to sabotage 3rd party developer efforts. With each release, the gnome devs make less drastic changes to the infrastructure. |
| jdixon Oct 02, 2013 3:26 PM EDT |
> However, and let me be very clear here, extensions/themes break because the gnome devs have not yet reached that desired level of stability... And what release of Gnome 3 are we on again? |
| jazz Oct 02, 2013 4:35 PM EDT |
Quoting:Whether it's because you have genuinly tried to solve your own personal grievances with it technically When I chose a DE I'm not looking to solving puzzles, I just need one that works. There are lots of excellent WM/DEs, why should I bother with some half-baked solution built by people who have no idea what a workflow is? The notion of *competition* is something foreign to Gnome developers and Gnome fans. The wold is a little bit larger than what you guys can comprehend. Quoting:or are simply unwilling to try, I could say You have a short attention span, read my previous post. |
| jazz Oct 02, 2013 5:10 PM EDT |
Quoting:This is true to some extent. Much more so in earlier releases. However, the longer gnome3 is around, the more stable the APIs become. You are saying that after 3 years APIs are not stable? Is this product still in alpha stage? Quoting:I know what was said. it is true that some of the gnome devs are hostile towards 3rd party themes/extensions. This is because they want to try and bring stability and consistency to a desktop they have developed. However, and let me be very clear here, extensions/themes break because the gnome devs have not yet reached that desired level of stability and not because they are trying to sabotage 3rd party developer efforts. On this one I agree with you, unstable and half-baked, in other words alpha stage. Probably the developers don't know yet what they want to build. I've stopped reading Gnome 3 articles long time ago, when it goes into beta put it in the title. This is a nice Gnome 3 article I actually did read: http://linux.slashdot.org/story/13/09/24/1252243/middle-click-paste-not-for-long?sdsrc=popbyskidbtmprev |
| BernardSwiss Oct 02, 2013 7:46 PM EDT |
Quoting:This is a nice Gnome 3 article I actually did read: Getting rid of middle-click paste? Seriously!? That just... that's such... that doesn't... that's so... that's... that's... |
| jdixon Oct 02, 2013 8:34 PM EDT |
> You are saying that after 3 years APIs are not stable? I think they're jealous of the KDE devs and want to do them one better. I think it was KDE 4.6 before KDE 4 really stabilized. |
| fnoss Oct 03, 2013 6:42 AM EDT |
@all I have no idea how long a new DE and underlying technologies take to develop. There are so many different factors that affect the development speed its impossible for anyone to say. However, looking at the development of KDE 4, e17 and now Gnome 3, I would suggest it takes a looong time and a lot of effort wouldn't you?. Who is to say how long it should take. With FOSS, most of the time, it is ready when its ready. So when you knock development efforts because it "isn't ready yet" you are basically stating your impatients and showing your inability to see value in what has already been developed. In gnomes case, its potential is as good as KDEs, just that its not yet as stable. I've no doubt that gnome 3 has caused a lot of controversy, it is different. And doing things like removing middle click is, err... not to my liking however, I'm willing to bet that I can remap it back the way I like it. it takes me less time to make gnome 3 to my liking, then it does in any other DE. |
| jdixon Oct 03, 2013 7:29 AM EDT |
> With FOSS, most of the time, it is ready when its ready. True, Of course, you'll notice that e17 stayed in alpha and beta until it was ready. It didn't try to pretend it was ready before it was, the way KDE and Gnome have done. > it takes me less time to make gnome 3 to my liking, then it does in any other DE. Yes, you like Gnome 3. We get that . Whether it's because you have genuinly tried other DE's and were unable to solve your own personal grievances with them, or are simply unwilling to try, we couldn't say. Though If we had to guess... |
| fnoss Oct 03, 2013 9:43 AM EDT |
@jdixon >True, Of course, you'll notice that e17 stayed in alpha and beta until it was ready. It didn't try to pretend it was ready before it was, the way KDE and Gnome have done. I do not recall the gnome devs ever saying, or even implying that it was ready. They have released software and suggested "here, we're developing a new DE, this is the latest and most stable release, you might like it". The absence of alpha or beta in the release titles does not imply it is finished. In any case, who would be the judge of such a state? To me (a user) it is usable and thus, finished, as much as I currently need it to be. That obviously does not apply to you however. >Yes, you like Gnome 3. We get that . Whether it's because you have genuinely tried other DE's and were unable to solve your own personal grievances with them, or are simply unwilling to try, we couldn't say. Though If we had to guess... To be clear, I don't like gnome 3 any more then other DEs. It has its advantages and disadvantages. At the moment, as I’ve said previously, it is the quickest to customise to my liking. I just get tired of the constant misinformation which is why it might seem like I’m singing its praises. I used KDE 4.6 through 4.10 and have always, without question, solved my own personal grievances with every DE/WM I’ve tried. Note that I do not knock something because the developers didn't do it the way I wanted. That would be silly. There are endless other ways to work and mine is but one. Having said all that though, one of the more legitimate arguments against gnome3s way of doing things is that they seem to hider our ability to customise by removing options. I hope that does not continue. |
| jdixon Oct 03, 2013 2:26 PM EDT |
> I do not recall the gnome devs ever saying, or even implying that it was ready. Hmm. I don't recall seeing any alpha or beta notices on the Gnome releases over the past few years. I guess I could have missed something. If so, I'm sure someone will point it out to me. > To be clear, Whoosh. |
| jazz Oct 03, 2013 4:56 PM EDT |
Since we talked about APIs, extensions, and themes, this is one nice article explaining what the problem is. http://igurublog.wordpress.com/2012/11/05/gnome-et-al-rotting-in-threes/ It looks like GTK3 (Gnome toolkit) breaks the interface with every release. This is one of the main reasons in the last 3 years lots of people switched to QT. I am not sure where fnoss gets his data, however, simple things like extensions and themes are not reliable and require additional maintenance work from developers every 6 months. As for external Gnome 3 programs, there aren't any. Gnome 3 is not a development platform such as Android, or iPhone, and without developers they have no future. Even Ubuntu moved away from GTK to QT and are trying hard to attract developers. KDE was doing it for years, they have this website with thousand of external programs (it is true, from time to time they also break things): http://kde-apps.org There is nothing similar in Gnome 3 and there will never be. It is a dead end, like Microsoft Phone or Blackberry. |
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