Dedoimedo
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| kikinovak Mar 24, 2013 9:09 AM EDT |
Igor Ljubuncic writes fairly well. Now if he also manages to learn to read (some Linux documentation for a start) he'll be on the road to perfection. :o) |
| HoTMetaL Mar 24, 2013 7:39 PM EDT |
Why should he? His articles are written from a different perspective. A 'let's see if everything works out of the box' perspective. They pretty much mirror my own experiences with trying out distros. Those who love to read technical documentation can make any operating system work for them. One shouldn't get butthurt because he wasn't initially impressed with one's fave distro. |
| gary_newell Mar 25, 2013 9:01 AM EDT |
To quote Sabayon's website (on the front page in big bold writing) "Sabayon is a Linux distribution. We aim to deliver the best "out of the box" user experience by providing the latest open source technologies in an elegant format. In Sabayon everything should just work. We offer a bleeding edge operating system that is both stable and reliable." From reading that you would think that you should be able to boot the DVD/USB drive, install the software and expect things like wireless, MP3 audio etc should work or be fairly accessible. If you compare that to the Arch Wiki, Slackware general info page or the Gentoo about us pages then you can see that these three never suggest for one minute that they offer out of the box functionality. I think the key is in the wording. From reading the Sabayon webpage I would expect it to work without much fuss and from Dedoimedo's point of view it doesn't. I think it is all about setting expectations. It is fine to have a distribution that has a learning curve to it but you can't then say "works out of the box". |
| Jeff91 Mar 26, 2013 3:11 PM EDT |
> Why should he? Attitudes like this are everything that is wrong with people that review open source software. Why is FOSS held to a different standard than closed source software? There are *countless* books on "how to" use/do various *basic* tasks on Windows/OSX/Microsoft Office - yet when someone is told to take a glance over documentation for FOSS software people often scream that this means the software is "unfriendly" or "not intuitive". The only reason people know "how to use" Windows or Software XYZ is because it is software they are have used it in the past. Please don't confuse being familiar with a piece of software with how easy it is to LEARN a piece of software if someone is truly willing to learn something new. ~Jeff Hoogland |
| HoTMetaL Mar 27, 2013 1:14 AM EDT |
Quoting:Attitudes like this are everything that is wrong with people that review open source software.Oh. So I have an 'attitude.' And I review open source software. Wrong on both counts, Jeff. Actually, I have an attitude, it's just not a bad or negative one. =] Quoting:Why is FOSS held to a different standard than closed source software?Because FOSS is generally of higher quality than most closed source software and often "just works" when closed source falls on its face. In terms of desktop distributions, it is often expected that all or most of your hardware will work and the interface will be intuituive in a given distro, especially when your recent past experience with other distros was just that. Simple. As Linux users, we are spoiled. We expect problems when using Windows. The driver searches. The malware. The sudden message that your operating system is having "activation" problems. But Linux users hold our operating systems to a higher standard usually because we've experienced distro nirvana at some point. And once we've had it, it's sometimes difficult to understand why we should settle for anything less than that experience. It may seem unfair, but it makes open source better. Criticism of a release can provide important feedback to those who can fix issues. I'm quite sure someone with Sabayon read his article. And I'd bet beer that some of his concerns disappear in the next release. |
| slacker_mike Mar 27, 2013 1:36 AM EDT |
Jeff or kikinovak what part of the review did you feel the reviewer shirk his reviewer duties by not reading documentation? |
| Jeff91 Mar 27, 2013 9:05 AM EDT |
@Slacker_Mike I didn't actually read the review from him. He opened his last Bodhi "review" with stating the fact that he hated E17 and then went on to complain about E17 the entire time and how Bodhi didn't ship with he precious multimedia codecs/flash player installed by default. The guy is a hack of a writer just trying to stir up trouble. > it is often expected that all or most of your hardware will work See again, I simply have to disagree here. Users have the unrealistic idea that because things worked in Windows/OSX/Whatever it is all going to work in Linux OOTB. This just isn't true, sure Linux has some awesome hardware support, but there still exists some hardware where the vendor simply doesn't provide Linux drivers. > the interface will be intuituive in a given distro What is "intuitive" to you, isn't to me and vice versa. In fact, generally humans call things "intuitive" because they are simply used to doing things in a certain way. Users confuse being familiar with a product, with that product being easy to use. ~Jeff |
| Fettoosh Mar 27, 2013 10:34 AM EDT |
@Jeff, There is no doubt that constructive criticism helps create a better product and, although I firmly agree with your last statement, there is more to intuitiveness than familiarity. Things could be made more intuitive by presenting hints and tips about what and how to use certain tools. |
| Jeff91 Mar 27, 2013 10:48 AM EDT |
@Fettoosh If you are telling the user how things work that it is by definition NOT intuitive: "in·tu·i·tive /inˈt(y)o͞oitiv/ Adjective Using or based on what one feels to be true even without conscious reasoning; instinctive." Don't get me wrong - tool tips are good. Clear documentation is better. IMO "user friendly" and "intuitive" software are generally used as buzz marketing words in today's world. ~Jeff |
| gus3 Mar 27, 2013 11:56 AM EDT |
"The only intuitive interface is the nipple. Everything else is learned." |
| jdixon Mar 27, 2013 11:59 AM EDT |
> What is "intuitive" to you, isn't to me and vice versa. "The only intuitive interface is the nipple". Various attributions. See http://www.greenend.org.uk/rjk/misc/nipple.html for the details. And i see gus3 beat me to it. :( |
| Fettoosh Mar 27, 2013 1:15 PM EDT |
@Jeff, You left out or forgot the 2nd definition of intuitive in Google's Dictionary. :-) (chiefly of computer software) Easy to use and understand |
| Jeff91 Mar 27, 2013 1:39 PM EDT |
And I will continue to argue that people only find software "easy to use" because it mimics other software people have had previous experience/training with. ~Jeff |
| Fettoosh Mar 27, 2013 3:17 PM EDT |
@Jeff, Consider one person who never seen a computer. Assuming s/he can read, guess which interface is considered easier if one has an icon with Start right in the middle and another with a strange picture? |
| Jeff91 Mar 27, 2013 3:43 PM EDT |
Fettoosh what operating systems still have a "Start" button? They have pretty much all moved to a "strange picture" these days. ~Jeff |
| Fettoosh Mar 27, 2013 4:03 PM EDT |
Quoting:Fettoosh what operating systems still have a "Start" button? I can't think of one, but the assumption was to illustrate the point of intuitiveness. |
| HoTMetaL Mar 28, 2013 6:31 AM EDT |
Quoting:He opened his last Bodhi "review" with stating the fact that he hated E17 and then went on to complain about E17 the entire time and how Bodhi didn't ship with he precious multimedia codecs/flash player installed by default. The guy is a hack of a writer just trying to stir up trouble.Ahhh, now I get it. Your hind quarters also hurt because Igor didn't like your distro. And after reading his first and second reviews of Bodhi, I'd be a lil' sore too if it were my hard work being criticized. But if I wanted to improve my distro, I'd listen. And I'd work toward resolving the issues he has very clearly laid out instead of dismissing him as a "hack" trying to "stir up trouble." Yeah, he clearly wasn't impressed with E17. He also clearly stated why. Quoting:Users have the unrealistic idea that because things worked in Windows/OSX/Whatever it is all going to work in Linux OOTB.It's rare I defend someone that I don't know well, but again I think you've missed the boat with this guy's Linux reviews. He's not comparing Windows/OSX to Linux, He's comparing Linux to Linux. And for a distro that bases off of Ubuntu and its repos, it isn't a stretch to expect that if networking works OOTB in Ubuntu, it should also work OOTB in your Ubuntu-based distro. Quoting:What is "intuitive" to you, isn't to me and vice versa. In fact, generally humans call things "intuitive" because they are simply used to doing things in a certain way. Users confuse being familiar with a product, with that product being easy to use.I mostly agree with you on this one. But intuitiveness and ease of use isn't wholly determined by familiarity. There certainly are other factors relating to design and aesthetics, some of which this writer mentions in his Bodhi & E17 articles. Don't dismiss writers because you don't agree with or understand what they write. It would be wise to use these articles to improve Bodhi. You can discount them and ignore them, but then you're no better than the GNOME devs who ignored its users and subsequently lost much of its userbase. |
| Jeff91 Mar 28, 2013 8:19 AM EDT |
Hotmetal, If I picked up a spoon and then complained that the spoon acted as a poor fork and because of this was a steaming pile of cr@p - would that be a fair review of the fork or me as a writer being a dip sh#t? Igor does just this. He picked up Bodhi, which by design comes with very little, and then complains that it comes with very little! I'm all for improving Bodhi when valid complaints are raised about how things work, but how are we suppose to "improve" on his feedback, when his feedback wants us to change everything we do? That would make us a different project all together. Should every spoon just be a fork? Or a spork maybe? What about the people that WANT to use a spoon? Sure he is comparing Linux to Linux, but he is doing so with the idea that EVERY Linux distribution is designed with the EXACT same goals in mind. Is a distribution designed for security testing a failure because it doesn't come with desktop applications pre-installed? Is a distribution for recovering data useless? Are Arch Linux, Debian and Gentoo piss poor projects? With the standards he sets - all of these would be. Never mind the fact that this is by the design of the project. I've dismissed him because he fails to research the things he writes about, then spreads slander about things he doesn't understand and on top of it all he doesn't have the balls to allow people to post on his "articles". ~Jeff |
| CFWhitman Mar 28, 2013 9:21 AM EDT |
I haven't read enough of this guy to form a general opinion about his articles. However, I did notice that in his E17 article he claims to be reviewing E17, but the version he's reviewing is a beta from several years ago, not even close to the latest version. It doesn't matter that it's the version included in the repository of the distribution that he chose to use to review E17. Since he bills the review as a review of E17 it becomes his responsibility to obtain the latest version of it, and it ought to be in as generic a form as possible. Also, when you review a window manager/desktop environment, you shouldn't blame it for shortcomings of the way a distribution maintainer preconfigured the system in general. You need to make some attempt to separate out issues that are the developer's responsibility and the distribution maintainer's responsibility. I suspect that if he had done this he still wouldn't like E17, but it would be more clear what was a strength, what was a shortcoming, and what was purely subjective about the environment. |
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