Just a bunch of terminal garbage...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| cmost Feb 03, 2013 7:30 PM EDT |
Yeah, like screenshots of a bunch of terminal garbage is going to entreaty new Linux users to flock to this distribution. As a Gentoo user by way of Sabayon, I'm all for rolling, advanced Linux distros. But until Arch develops (or steals) an easy, graphical installation tool it's going to be a distro restricted to uber geeks who would rather write bash scripts on Friday night instead of meeting hot chicks at the local disco. |
| HoTMetaL Feb 03, 2013 9:15 PM EDT |
I always script on Friday nights. Saturday's my disco night. |
| tracyanne Feb 03, 2013 9:23 PM EDT |
I'm all for meeting hot chicks at the local disco |
| othersimon Feb 03, 2013 11:06 PM EDT |
cmost, maybe you didn't read the first sentence of the article which says Arch is a "Linux distribution targeted at competent Linux users". So I don't see why you would assume that Arch or this "Screenshot tour" is aiming to attract users who are new to Linux. Anyway, in more than three years as an Arch user (on two different machines) I've never been forced to write a bash script to accomplish anything I wanted to do. Yes, you do need to use command line tools for some things, but if anything once you're used them they leave more time for meeting hot chicks for the disco. |
| HoTMetaL Feb 04, 2013 12:38 AM EDT |
That's discothèque for all you non-U.S. people. |
| cabreh Feb 04, 2013 2:47 AM EDT |
You mean you weren't referring to the Disco Volante? As in Thunderball. |
| nmset Feb 04, 2013 6:49 AM EDT |
I hate disco. I prefer write bash scripts on Friday night. I've written 2 scripts to install Arch easily. I must say it's more powerful this way than with a mouse. True, if you come to Arch, you must know what you're doing. That's a good filter for the distro maintainers. |
| notbob Feb 04, 2013 10:07 AM EDT |
cmost wrote:As a Gentoo user by way of Sabayon Pretty funny, considering Gentoo's install is every bit as text heavy and daunting as any Arch install. Both make Slackware look like a walk in the park. Long gone Caldera linux is the only one I've ever seen that made an installation truly attractive. Press install, in which a game of tetris opened up for you to play, while Caldera installed itself in the background. That was over 15 yrs ago. |
| jdixon Feb 04, 2013 10:32 AM EDT |
> Both make Slackware look like a walk in the park. Slackware's installer may not be pretty, but that and the fact that it's not forgiving of extraneous key presses are it's only real drawbacks. It works on pretty much everything out there, even machines with <256MB of memory, which is more than you can say for the GUI'ed ones. |
| caitlyn Feb 04, 2013 11:49 AM EDT |
Arch, Gentoo, CRUX, and, despite claims to the contrary, Slackware, are all aimed at experienced Linux users who like to roll up their sleeves and get under the hood. Once you get any of them configured to taste they are all very stable and generally excellent. The only issue is that they require more TLC to setup and to maintain than the mainstream user friendly distros. Now, if a newcomer wants to learn how Linux works, any of the above is fine. If they want a system to just work, any of the above is a poor choice. It's funny, saying that about Slackware and pointing out how it differs from mainstream distros it what got me in hot water with the Slackware community to start with. I don't see it as a negative. The only negative is claiming that Slackware is "easy" when, by any common standard of usability, it isn't. For a technically savvy user everything becomes easy. I've never made similar comments about Arch or CRUX because they say exactly what they are on their websites in unequivocal language. @jdixon: You're right about CLI installers. Not much memory is needed and they often have lots of flexibility not found in installers designed to be user friendly. The closest thing I've seen to a GUI installer that offers anywhere near as many choices as the Slackware or Debian installers would be Red Hat's Anaconda or perhaps SUSE's yast, and they don't really come close. @notbob: Caldera, before SCO, before management changes, was way ahead of the pack in terms of providing both user friendly and a high degree of functionality at the same time. It was truly outstanding in its time. Pity what happened to it. I'm old enough to have been in my teens when disco hit is peak of popularity. I was one of those people who really hated disco. I wasn't alone in my feelings either: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disco_Demolition_Night |
| notbob Feb 04, 2013 12:01 PM EDT |
jdixon wrote:it's not forgiving of extraneous key presses Well, that's kinda true. That miniscule footprint is maintained by not having an install nanny-dialogue 2nd guess yer every choice. If you make a keypress mistake, you simply start over. I realize starting over from boot is slow and tedious, but it works and Slack doesn't really install anything until the last keypress, so you can screw up as many times as you need to learn the drill and get it right. That's why I keep using Slackware. It jes keeps getting better because I keep getting better. Beats me why so many jump from distro to distro like lost souls looking for whatever. To me, it's jes that much more I hafta learn with every new distro. Staying with one distro makes it so much easier. I can practically install Slack in my sleep. Why on Earth would I wanna make using linux more complex? |
| jdixon Feb 04, 2013 12:26 PM EDT |
> Now, if a newcomer wants to learn how Linux works, any of the above is fine. If they want a system to just work, any of the above is a poor choice. I can agree with that. > The only negative is claiming that Slackware is "easy" when, by any common standard of usability, it isn't. For a technically savvy user everything becomes easy. Please note that no such qualifier was in those comments, Caityln. As I said at the time, ease of use is subjective. :) > It was truly outstanding in its time. Pity what happened to it. Absolutely. Some people at work who had to interface with Netware absolutely loved it. |
| jdixon Feb 04, 2013 12:30 PM EDT |
> Beats me why so many jump from distro to distro like lost souls looking for whatever. I try out other distros because I recommend Linux to people who are looking for alternatives. At the moment, I'm pretty much recommending Mint for users whose machines will support it and Debian for those whose machines won't. I don't want to start a new user out on Slackware unless they're already used to alternative OS'es or unless I know what they'll be using the machine for and can customize it to their needs. |
| tuxchick Feb 04, 2013 1:47 PM EDT |
I love Arch. The Arch team does a brilliant job, and their documentation is the best of any community distro. Running around crying about "ewww a command line, I'm scared!" is so dumb. Though maybe that's just one of the many reasons other countries are kicking our butts in tech and science. |
| notbob Feb 04, 2013 2:04 PM EDT |
tuxchick wrote:Running around crying about "ewww a command line, I'm scared!" Yet my 12 yr old granddaughter can txt me with one hand, without looking, on a number pad cell phone, faster than I can negotiate my qwerty cell phone! How does that work and why do their eyes glass over when you mention the linux command line? Truly hilarious, yet a baffling mystery. ;) |
| Fettoosh Feb 04, 2013 3:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:Though maybe that's just one of the many reasons other countries are kicking our butts in tech and science. Drumming of American kids started when TI calculators were available to students. Kids are no longer being taught or made to paying attentions to basics. Consequently no longer fun to learn or enjoy the feeling of self satisfaction. That is a shame. Quoting:Yet my 12 yr old granddaughter can txt me with one hand, without looking, on a number pad cell phone,... May be a good solution would be to chop off part of the keyboard and just leave the number pad. :-) |
| caitlyn Feb 04, 2013 3:58 PM EDT |
You know, I have a niece in college on an academic scholarship, a nephew who is graduating high school this spring who also will have scholarship money, and a niece who is two years behind. They all seem to be quite proficient at math (the nephew is going into engineering, the younger girl also has the head for it if she wants) and they certainly learned the basics and then some. I don't think American education is "dumbed down" so much as kids have to want to learn. That was an issue way back when I was in school and is true today. The kids that want to learn do fine. Oh, and yeah, all three can text like demons and all three can provide tech support to the older generations on the computer. Quoting:Running around crying about "ewww a command line, I'm scared!" is so dumb.It's not what people are taught to expect from a system anymore. It's not fear of the command line. It's fear of something radically different than what they are used to. |
| notbob Feb 04, 2013 4:33 PM EDT |
Nonsense. Ppl been watching the command line on tv and in movies for 30 yrs. Te problem is most folks are dumber'n a bag o' rocks and can't negotiate anything more than a mouse with one button. I can count on one hand the number of ppl I know who know how to touch-type. It's pitiful, really. |
| caitlyn Feb 04, 2013 4:36 PM EDT |
You just hang out with a poor crowd. That's just not my experience at all. |
| jdixon Feb 04, 2013 4:50 PM EDT |
> I don't think American education is "dumbed down" so much as kids have to want to learn. While kids who want to learn will probably succeed in any reasonable system, ours makes it a lot harder than it has to be. So I'd say there's a fair degree of both aspects involved, and there's little doubt our public school systems are getting worse, not better. |
| notbob Feb 04, 2013 5:03 PM EDT |
"poor crowd"? WTF is a "poor crowd"? |
| caitlyn Feb 04, 2013 5:33 PM EDT |
@notbob: A "poor crowd" is one where "most folks are dumber'n a bag o' rocks and can't negotiate anything more than a mouse with one button." I don't travel in those circles. @jdixon: Let's just say we'll agree to disagree about public schools, OK? I really don't want to head off into a political discussion. What I will say is there is much more doubt than you think. I will also say that there is a huge difference between schools in rural Mississippi and metro Atlanta, or between schools in poor parishes in Louisiana and well funded districts in New York. Our educational system in the U.S. is woefully uneven. |
| jdixon Feb 04, 2013 5:56 PM EDT |
> Our educational system in the U.S. is woefully uneven. Well, duh. :) But yes, we'll drop the discussion at this point, to avoid TOS violations. |
| notbob Feb 04, 2013 10:22 PM EDT |
"I don't travel in those circles." Not being familiar with such abstracts as "poor crowd", "hang out", and "travel in those circles", precisely what DO you do? I mean other than use a lot of meaningless phrases to no apparent point? ;) |
| caitlyn Feb 05, 2013 4:44 AM EDT |
@notbob: I live a normal life. I don't find most people to be " dumber'n a bag o' rocks". It's just not true. |
| Fettoosh Feb 05, 2013 10:11 AM EDT |
Quoting:You know, I have a niece in college on an academic scholarship, ... @caitlyn, Without going into specifics about my children educational accomplishments, many of us here have kids, relatives, and friend who also went to schools and graduated from college with good standing. You are missing the main point here. The US spends per student the most among other nations, yet its students come far behind many. It is all relative and not seeing that issue is part of the problem. |
| caitlyn Feb 06, 2013 12:06 PM EDT |
Oh, I see the issue. What I didn't want to get into was that the problem, as I see it, is a lack of national educational standards and curricula plus the very uneven funding methods. Education is one area where local control of pretty much everything has failed miserably. Do you want me to go on? It's pure politics. |
| alc Feb 06, 2013 1:53 PM EDT |
I think we need to include parent involvement into this. All the money, standards and whatever else you want to throw at it, won't help if parents aren't doing their part. |
| caitlyn Feb 06, 2013 2:08 PM EDT |
alc: I agree completely. |
| Fettoosh Feb 06, 2013 3:59 PM EDT |
Quoting:I think we need to include parent involvement into this. No doubt and that is why many kids are doing just fine, but many more kids, for one reason or another, don't have the proper caring and guidance to avoid the powerful attractions and distractions. Schools need to help in this area but there are too many hollow restrictions and regulations. There are fundamental problems in today's society. |
| caitlyn Feb 06, 2013 4:16 PM EDT |
Quoting:Schools need to help in this area but there are too many hollow restrictions and regulationsToo many or too few meaningful regulations of curricula and standards? See what I mean about this turning into a TOS violation in a hurry. |
| jdixon Feb 06, 2013 4:18 PM EDT |
> I think we need to include parent involvement into this. Oh, I agree. But then, the ultimate form of parental involvement would be home schooling, would it not? |
| alc Feb 06, 2013 5:09 PM EDT |
" But then, the ultimate form of parental involvement would be home schooling, would it not?" If the parents are up for it, for sure. Most of the home schooled kids I've met are usually way ahead scholasticly, sometimes socially, not so much. |
| jdixon Feb 06, 2013 5:26 PM EDT |
> If the parents are up for it, for sure. Whether most parents are up for it or not is a highly debated (and debatable) subject, which is probably best not discussed here for above mentioned reasons. I'll merely point out that no one involved in the public education system seems to approve of home schooling, even though they're constantly beating the parental involvement drum. Strange how that works. |
| caitlyn Feb 06, 2013 5:52 PM EDT |
Parents can be very qualified to be involved with their children but utterly unqualified to be teachers. Did that ever occur to you? |
| Fettoosh Feb 06, 2013 6:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:Parents can be very qualified to be involved with their children b ,,, I certainly agree with that. It takes the involvement of both. Let's not forget that many students have both parents working. It is even gets worse for students of single parent. |
| Fettoosh Feb 06, 2013 6:12 PM EDT |
Quoting:See what I mean about this turning into a TOS violation in a hurry. Sorry but I don't see how such a discussion could turn to a violation of TOS. Is it just because it doesn't involve FOSS/Linux? |
| gus3 Feb 06, 2013 6:32 PM EDT |
Neither does this article but there it is in the newsfeed. |
| caitlyn Feb 06, 2013 9:03 PM EDT |
Purely political discussions are TOS violations. This has been covered too many times before. A lot of us have been skating on the edge in this thread. |
| jdixon Feb 06, 2013 10:17 PM EDT |
> Did that ever occur to you? Yes. It has. Lots of things occur to me. As I said, TOS concerns make it an inappropriate discussion beyond that point. |
| notbob Feb 07, 2013 8:32 AM EDT |
caitlyn wrote:Purely political discussions are TOS violations. ..... A lot of us have been skating on the edge in this thread. Hilarious!! FOSS is so political it's almost impossible to speak of it in any other terms. And speaking of skating on the edge, how many children do you currently have in school? Lastly, Slackware is not jes for experienced users. I adopted Slackware cuz I was a clueless linux newbie and didn't understand much of anything about it. Getting under the hood is how one learns. You don't learn spit by paying a mechanic. It's ludicrous to suggest one can learn linux quicker or better by using a distro plastered over with a buncha Window/Mac GUIs. Use it, perhaps. Learn it? Not gonna happen. |
| jdixon Feb 07, 2013 11:07 AM EDT |
> Use it, perhaps. Learn it? Not gonna happen. While I agree, most people don't want to seem to learn. They just want to use. For those people, Slackware isn't an appropriate choice unless you're going to customize it for their needs and support it for them. |
| caitlyn Feb 07, 2013 11:23 AM EDT |
Quoting:For those people, Slackware isn't an appropriate choice unless you're going to customize it for their needs and support it for them.This hits the nail on the head. OTOH, there are some Slackware derivatives that are friendly enough to be appropriate choices. The main thing holding distros like SalixOS and VectorLinux back are relatively small repositories. An experienced Slacker can build any package they want, of course. A typical user, not so much. Quoting:And speaking of skating on the edge, how many children do you currently have in school?Why does that matter at all? Is taking an interest in my nieces and nephews who are in school not good enough somehow? Quoting:Getting under the hood is how one learns. You don't learn spit by paying a mechanic.That's only true if you want to be a mechanic. Most people can do their jobs very well without ever getting under the hood. Just as you don't have to be a mechanic to be a good and safe driver you don't have to be a Linux admin or developer to make good use of the OS. Quoting: Lastly, Slackware is not jes for experienced users.Where did anyone say that it was? What I said, and what I stand by, is that Slackware is a good learning tool for those who want to roll up their sleeves and get under the hood. For those who simply want their computers to work it's inappropriate, just as jdixon says. |
| notbob Feb 07, 2013 1:47 PM EDT |
caitlyn wrote:Slackware, are all aimed at experienced Linux users We'll wait while you worm yer way out of it. ;) |
| caitlyn Feb 07, 2013 1:51 PM EDT |
Quoting:We'll wait while you worm yer way out of it. ;)Nothing at all to worm my way out of. I said "Slackware [is] aimed at experienced users." You claimed I said "Slackware is jes for experienced users." Aimed at does not mean "just" or "only". Trying to start a flamewar? Trying to put words in my mouth? Sorry, not going to have it. |
| notbob Feb 07, 2013 2:08 PM EDT |
caitlyn wrote:You claimed I said "Slackware is jes for experienced users." Put words in your mouth? No, that's your specialty. With quote marks, no less! Amazing. |
| caitlyn Feb 07, 2013 2:11 PM EDT |
I see this has turned into troll central. |
| nmset Feb 07, 2013 3:27 PM EDT |
(
May I troll a little ? Following this quite amused. Why don't you all start some Bash scripts ? You see the result of boozing on Friday nights ? LOL ! ) |
| HoTMetaL Feb 08, 2013 5:59 AM EDT |
It's Friday. Time to put on some Donna Summer and write code. |
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