Can we talk?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| notbob Dec 04, 2012 10:04 AM EDT |
I'm gonna interject, here in this tablet comparison article, cuz I'm not sure if this place is a forum for anything other than the the news stories presented. Is it? If not, I'll abandon this thread. Despite my past ravings and demeanor I'm no luddite (dy-tee?). I jes like to rant and am not above trashing junk I think is created merely to get hardware droids to part from their hard earned jingles. The ol' "create a need, then fill it" approach to business, which I despise. Anyway, I'm here to initiate a serious discussion on (shudder) tablets. I'm not against technology. I wouldn't be in a Linux news/forum if I was. So, let's move beyond that. Let's say I do need one. Actually, I've identified a couple reasons I might find one handy. One, I'd love to get a camera copter. You know, like a Parrot AR Drone. But, that's jes fer entertainment and not a driving factor. Another reason, and more importantly, is due to my aging mother, who I am a caregiver to, she being an Alzheimer sufferer. I must monitor her 60/60/24/7/365, so I'm working on a home video streaming server and video system to help me monitor her, yet allow me to get more than a room's distance from her, yet still see her. I don't think the 2" screen on my cell phone is gonna get it, so I'm forced to consider a tablet. It seems a lotta folks here are tablet users, so I would ask to impose on you ppl for advice. First of all, does my concept hold water? Can a home video streaming server reach out to a tablet that is free of cell phone entanglement? IOW, is wifi enough? My location has low bandwidth wifi and my home DSL network has wifi. I should have no problem wifi networking within a 100 yds of our home, which is my need. Does this sound practical? I'm not too up on "apps" having only a rather dumb Tracfon --which I actually use as a phone-- and a PC desktop. I have discovered my Tracfon, despite providing what appears to be internet access, will not do google maps unless I download a map "app". Why is this? Is the OS/software for the cell phone not sufficiently powerful enough to jes access the google maps website? This is where I become wary. Why do I need an "app"? Is it to allow me access or to allow "them" access to me? Can I even use a tablet without some sorta cell phone service? Isn't wifi enough? Do I need apps for a tablet? Is a tablet powerful enough to allow a standard linux distro to work on it? Must I run a gimped up OS like Android? Jes as an FYI, I do not do Apple, in any way shape or form, so that whole issue is off the table. I gotta lot more questions about this questionable subject, but I feel I need to learn about it, despite my misgivings, and I think you ppl will give me fair and accurate info. If you wanna dogpile, go right ahead (like you need my permission! ;). If you would like to help, I'd appreciate it. If this is not the place, kindly direct me elsewhere. Thanks for your time, nb |
| jdixon Dec 04, 2012 11:30 AM EDT |
> Can I even use a tablet without some sorta cell phone service? Isn't wifi enough? Yes, 802.11g/n wireless is enough, as long as you're within range of the signal, and should give you better throughput than cellular service. Beyond that, I can't really comment, since I don't own a tablet or even a smartphone. We did have a pair of Nokia 770's, but one lost it's video and the other lost it's wireless, so neither is really usable now, :( |
| penguinist Dec 04, 2012 12:16 PM EDT |
Good set of questions notbob. Let me try to add my perspectives. First, android/linux and gnu/linux share a common kernel but the userspace is quite different and the underlying philosophies are quite different. While it is true that google has open sourced android/linux (kudos to google on this point), they have, to a large extent, closed the environment in several ways. One way is that android/linux is shipped without root access. Usually an exploit or a special os rebuild needs to be run on an android/linux device in order to gain root access to the device you bought. Secondly, the conventional set of gnu utilities is not provided by default in the android/linux environment. You get a stripped down busybox, but you are on your own if you want the power you are accustomed to in a gnu/linux environment. Many people install optware in order to work around this serious limitation. Thirdly, scripting is difficult at best in android/linux. Early releases had a way to easily run a script on startup, but that feature was removed long ago. Also, there is no crond running, so scheduled scripted tasks are not easy to implement. Fourthly, iptables is not supported in the default android/linux, so there is no easy way to set up your firewall to protect and monitor your system. Note, if you are running your device behind your own home network, then you have a chance to erect an iptables firewall at your network's entrance. Android/linux users running directly on a mobile carrier network don't have this luxury. Instead of user scripted tasks, android/linux encourages the development of a multitude of tiny special purpose apps distributed through google's repository (google play). Most of these apps are closed source since there is no requirement for attached source packages as there is in most (if not all) gnu/linux distributions. I see this as a security issue with android/linux, since without source these apps receive no peer review (as we have with gnu/linux), and we have no way of knowing what actions they perform on our devices. |
| notbob Dec 04, 2012 2:34 PM EDT |
Good set of replies, Penguinist! Several I can definitely sink my teeth into. I didn't really think about a tablet for many of the reasons you bring up. At least not until I read about ZaTab over on LJ. It's rooted, it's open, they even note, "a good chance you will see a full Linux distro running on the ZaTab in the future". This is one area I'm still very vague on, the user space, as you say. Also, I've not kept up to the major distinctions between android and real linux distros or the hardware differences between a laptop and a tablet. I have an XP netbook I can run linux from a key, but that's not a tablet, which I guess is an entirely different animal. I was under the apparently false impression a tablet was jes a keyless netbook and you could install and run any linux distro on any tablet. Sounds like tablets are more of a large cellphone than a small laptop. Silly me. I guess I was confused by a website that compared the Nokia E70 to an Iphone and showed the Nokia running terminal programs like SSH, and that's ancient history, occurring years ago. I thought hacking a device for root was only for cellphones. You see tablets listing the same hardware as netbooks, but it seems they're not even remotely the same. I can run slackware on a $35 raspberry pi, but not a $350 tablet? Too bizarre. Looks like I have much to learn in the tablet arena. Thanks for the reply, Penguinist. |
| Jeff91 Dec 04, 2012 2:46 PM EDT |
@jdixon - take the working screen from the one with broken wireless and put it on the one with one with the broken screen :) I did with with a pair of busted N900s I had no long ago. ~Jeff |
| jdixon Dec 04, 2012 3:11 PM EDT |
> I was under the apparently false impression a tablet was jes a keyless netbook and you could install and run any linux distro on any tablet. First, most netbooks are x86 based. Most tablets are ARM based. And many tablets have closed hardware that is not well supported except by closed binary blobs. So there's a double whammy: Not all distro's support ARM, and the closed hardware may not be supported if they do. Read up on CyanogenMod though, it may meet your needs. > take the working screen from the one with broken wireless and put it on the one with one with the broken screen :) I've thought about doing that, but haven't been up to tackling the project or had the time. Disassembling one isn't a trivial task, from the looks of it. |
| jacog Dec 05, 2012 3:21 AM EDT |
On that ... has anyone actually used Ubuntu for Android? |
| Fettoosh Dec 05, 2012 1:27 PM EDT |
Quoting:Sounds like tablets are more of a large cellphone than a small laptop. Silly me. @notbob, In a way they are, and that is because of what you accurately described The ol' "create a need, then fill it" approach to business and of the fact that, desktop applications are not touch friendly yet. But it not going to stay this way and it is definitely going to change. The KDE team was the first to take the initiative to change that. They are working on a tablet called Vivaldi tablet, hardware, details, which will have a full fledged OS that consists of Mer and KDE Plasma Active interface. Along with that, they are working on many of the open source applications to make them touch interface friendly. It has taken too long and that is mostly because they are trying to build an open hardware tablet at the same time of creating an OS for it. The way I see it, they would been better off taking any tablet hardware, like Samsung/Google Nexus, to develop the software and then worry about have open hardware/drivers. MS is also following this route with their Surface tablet, which I don't know much about. Currently, the most attractive attribute of tablets is mobility and the hardware that makes it a lot closer to a laptop than a phone. As they stand currently, tablets are not fully productive to everyone yet. Although they are sort of limited to some, they are good devices for information and data consumption on the go. The way things are progressing, they do/or will have the necessary and sufficient resources to run desktop applications when they are made touch interface suitable. By the way, without going into details, a tablet is ideal for what you want to do for your mother if use browser interface to your streaming server. Tablets have the potential to take over desktops and laptops in many areas, but not everywhere. |
| notbob Dec 05, 2012 4:11 PM EDT |
Fettoosh wrote:Along with that, they are working on many of the open source applications to make them touch interface friendly. I'm beginning to see where the twain does not meet. No keyboard requires a whole touch driven interface which std linux distros lack. My reservations with Android are simply that it IS Google. Google's entire raison d'être is to mine data. To believe their hardware/software/OS/apps/etc are not doing so, at every level, is sheer folly. My sole reason for moving to Linux was to regain FULL control over my own computer. Seems to me an Android tablet is a step in the wrong direction and returning control to the nefarious corporations. I guess I'll jes hafta wait until there's a fully open touch interface Linux cuz I will not go back. |
| caitlyn Dec 05, 2012 4:28 PM EDT |
How do standard distros lack a touch driven interface? Touch support is baked into the kernel. Any number of touch-enabled desktop environments are available (i.e.: KDE Plasma, GNOME 3). The biggest challenge is just getting the distro installed. The open touch interface exists and is out there. Re: Android/Google, sorry, I refuse to buy into the notion that corporations are somehow always "nefarious". I support using the best tool for the job. I have reservations about Google for the same reason you do but I'm not going to cut my nose to spite my face. If they have the best tablet interface in the marketplace that's what I'll use. |
| Fettoosh Dec 05, 2012 5:13 PM EDT |
Quoting:How do standard distros lack a touch driven interface? @caitlyn, We are referring to and talking about applications not Linux/Distros. Do you consider LibreOffice/OpenOffice, GIMP, etc. are touch interface friendly? In my opinion, even the desktop WM interface some times isn't. |
| jdixon Dec 05, 2012 5:20 PM EDT |
> I guess I'll jes hafta wait until there's a fully open touch interface Linux cuz I will not go back. As I understand it, CyanogenMod gives you full root capability on supported devices, and full control of the device. If you want to lock Google out, you can, as long as the device is supported. Like I said, take a look at it. |
| caitlyn Dec 05, 2012 5:45 PM EDT |
Is LibreOffice what a tablet is used for? GIMP? |
| Fettoosh Dec 05, 2012 6:59 PM EDT |
Quoting:Is LibreOffice what a tablet is used for? GIMP? Not currently, but will be. Why not? KingSoft Office is another Like I said, many of the KDE applications (Calligra - previously KOffice - is another), and I am sure many Open Source applications will be made touch interface friendly. |
| penguinist Dec 05, 2012 7:08 PM EDT |
Quoting:GIMP?To me, the tablet would be the perfect device for gimp. Imagine that you are an artist and can pull out your tablet and quickly sketch the scene in front of you. This would be somewhat like carrying a paper sketchpad with you. |
| notbob Dec 05, 2012 10:27 PM EDT |
caitlyn wrote: always. There you go attributing to me things I never said. Again! No, not always, but it's naive to pretend such corps do not exist. Apple, Microsoft, Google. Are you going to insist these corps are benign? Anyway, I know who to look out for and why. It can be argued these companies are merely trying to help. Sounds good. OTOH, why do so many help without alerting the user to their assistance or provide the user a way to opt out up front? You would think it would be good PR for the vendor. If I want an update, I'll be sure and let you know. Until then, butt out! . |
| caitlyn Dec 07, 2012 12:36 PM EDT |
Quoting:There you go attributing to me things I never said. Again!OK, substitute "mostly" or "often" for always. My comment stands. "Nefarious" is a word I would use for legitimate businesses somewhere between rarely and never. Quoting:Are you going to insist these corps are benign?When did I ever say such a thing? There is a long distance between benign and nefarious. Between your two poles, your black and white, there are a myriad shades of grey. Quoting:If I want an update, I'll be sure and let you know. Until then, butt out!Who appointed you editor-in-chief? Since when do you decide who may or may not post to LXer? You don't like my opinions? That is decidedly YOUR problem. I will NOT "butt out". I don't take orders from you. |
| notbob Dec 09, 2012 10:24 AM EDT |
caitlyn wrote:When did I ever say such a thing? I hafta say never ....much as I never claimed you did. Again with attributing nonexistent intent. Will it ever end? caitlyn wrote: Since when do you decide who may or may not post to LXer?..... I know it must be a crushing blow, but my remarks were not about you. ;) |
| caitlyn Dec 10, 2012 11:27 AM EDT |
You quote me, put my name at the top of the thread, and now say it's not about me. Sorry, I'm not crushed. You are absolutely inconsequential. Feel free to post as much drivel as you like. |
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