boycott Fuduntu
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tuxchick Nov 03, 2012 1:39 PM EDT |
deleted-- wrong forum. Sorry! |
| tuxchick Nov 03, 2012 1:54 PM EDT |
Oh phooey, I can't delete the subject line, so I might as well fill in the blanks-- I'm sick of the Fuduntu peeps dumping on us. Rude, abusive, and whiny-- I think they're all Andrew Wyatt anyway. Plus every time we post a Fuduntu story we're responsible for sending innocent readers into a pit of nasties. |
| newspost Nov 03, 2012 3:43 PM EDT |
Are you 4? You certainly seem to have a knack for acting like it. Scott made it perfectly clear that he didn't want any more of it when he locked the thread tracyanne was attacking me in, so what do you do? Start another one and then attack me again. Grow the fsck up. |
| tracyanne Nov 03, 2012 5:34 PM EDT |
Raises right eyebrow and smiles enigmatically. |
| caitlyn Nov 03, 2012 8:45 PM EDT |
Nasties? I have found plenty of distros that have far nastier communities than Fuduntu by far. Actually, come to think of it, I read through a bunch of stuff in the Fuduntu forum when I was test driving the distro and didn't find anything wrong at all. The distro itself is not my personal proverbial cup of tea, but it works well and does what it's designed to do. If I had written a review it would have been a rather positive one. Boycott a distro? I've endured all sorts of general harassment and even one death threat from Puppy Linux supporters and I simply ignore their little distro and their toxic community for the most part. Do I advocate a boycott? No. I get it. You don't like Andrew Wyatt. That's your privilege. That isn't a reason to boycott a distro. |
| tuxchick Nov 03, 2012 10:19 PM EDT |
Caitlyn, did you see this thread? http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/33982/ It's not the first time he has attacked LXer and the editorial team. I'd settle for a permanent ban and not let him keep coming back under different accounts, and getting Fuduntu stories from a different source. |
| newspost Nov 03, 2012 10:27 PM EDT |
@tuxchick I haven't attacked anyone, so stop pretending to be a victim and start acting like an adult. Of course Caitlyn saw it, Caitlyn posted in the thread. Implying some of you lack integrity isn't an attack, just look at this thread for more examples of your own lack of integrity, and you are an editor here. |
| flufferbeer Nov 03, 2012 11:07 PM EDT |
>... Grow the fsck up. > I haven't attacked anyone,... >...just look at this thread for more examples of your own lack of integrity,... There goest the Pot again Calling the Kettle Black denying it..... W-H-A-M!! I'd guess that now is as good a time as any to avoid Fudubudubuntu like the black plague until SOMEONE gets his act back in gear. Let's tally how many more times that this SOMEONE keeps on responding with his denials and personl counteraccusations below. Just sayin....... My 2c |
| newspost Nov 03, 2012 11:30 PM EDT |
@flufferbeer none of those statements are personal attacks, sorry to disappoint. |
| caitlyn Nov 03, 2012 11:53 PM EDT |
@tuxchick: I did see the early part of the thread but not how far it had degenerated in the end. I would have thought Scott's first post settled things. Apparently I was wrong. @newspost: Andrew, I don't agree at all with your analysis claiming there is a biased clique running LXer. I also feel everyone, including you, stepped a bit outside the bounds of civility. Scott handled it as he saw best as is his right as an editor. That hardly turns LXer into Fox News or one of the leftist equivalents I could name. All: I must say it's disheartening to see people I respect and (at least based on Internet contact) like go after each other. Carla and Andrew, you are both people I'd like to meet IRL and people with whom I think I could develop a genuine friendship if we weren't scattered across a very big country. You're both highly intelligent people who have contributed lots and bunches to the Linux community. So, please, take a step back and a deep breath and put the past online arguments behind you, OK? Both of you are better than this. |
| newspost Nov 04, 2012 12:10 AM EDT |
@caitlyn I was ready to let it go yesterday when Scott closed the thread, as I was perfectly content with his reply, and I'd be happy to let it die here too. Yes, I will openly admit that I have stepped outside the bounds of civility, sorry for that. I will only take so much though before I speak my mind on a subject - and I don't believe I let a single personal attack loose here or in the other thread unlike Carla Schroder and Tracy Anne Barlow have. I would gladly let it go; past and present, normally without a second thought but in this case only if the two LXer editors that have tag-teamed attacking me took ownership of and admit their fault in the personal attacks made against me and the project that I lead and vow to refrain from similar personal attacks in the future. |
| caitlyn Nov 04, 2012 12:21 AM EDT |
@newspost: Your last post is decidedly unhelpful. Let me frame things in a different way. LXer is a privately owned website and the editors have absolute discretion about what goes and what doesn't. This is hardly unique to LXer.com. That means you are in no position to make demands. I reread the original thread and this one. Yes, tracyanne did end up attacking you personally. You can and perhaps should raise that issue with management. While ta and I have gotten on better recently I have done precisely what I advise you to do in the past when a run in with her became intolerable to me. I don't know what, if anything, happened as a result. What I do know is that we have been able to put past differences behind us and discuss various issues related to FOSS and Linux in a civil manner since then, even when we disagree sharply. tuxchick did not participate in the previous thread. Since she obviously saw it and read it which means she showed restraint. She complained about your attitude in this one but I'm not quite sure that qualifies as a personal attack. Once again, my advice to BOTH of you is to put the past behind you and move on. You can dislike each other all you want for now but that doesn't need to boil over into verbal warfare on this site, OK? |
| newspost Nov 04, 2012 12:32 AM EDT |
@caitlyn - tuxchick didn't throw slurs or personal attacks in the other thread however this statement: "Plus every time we post a Fuduntu story we're responsible for sending innocent readers into a pit of nasties." is FUD, it is dishonest, and it is ultimately a personal attack. I'm sorry, no I'm not going to just let it go. Keep in mind that I didn't start this thread - Scott specifically said take it to email. Carla didn't (only) do that. She posted a thread, one that she didn't intend to be posted where we could all see it. Based on the first and second comments, it appears to be intended to be posted in an editor only subforum. Her accident becoming visible and calling for a boycott of an open source project is evidence of bias and lack of journalistic integrity. You are right, I'm in no position to make demands. I'm perfectly willing to let it go, however my opinion on the subject stands firm. |
| Ridcully Nov 04, 2012 4:08 AM EDT |
This is the second time recently that I have seen "newspost" involved in a "slanging match" on LXer. Everybody knows who I am: an old curmudgeon with an reasonable (?) sense of humour living in Australia - they even have photographs of me from my articles - that they can throw darts at. LOL. However, who are you "newspost" and what's the beef ? One of the nicest things about this site is the way the various people posting to it keep personal attack out of the whole thing. I'd like to see it continue that way. |
| tuxchick Nov 04, 2012 11:34 AM EDT |
I missed the part where it says LXer editors are required to take abuse, like being called liars and having a personal agenda against Fuduntu, all because Andrew Wyatt claims we're picking on him because we don't post his story submissions fast enough. Then he keeps piling on the insults and abuse because we don't roll over and take it. I'll put it behind me when Andrew apologizes and minds his manners, or is banned. I can't agree with any notion that LXer editors should accept being punching bags for abusive jerks, and I sure don't see why we should post story submissions from someone who treats us so foully. |
| newspost Nov 04, 2012 11:58 AM EDT |
Carla Schroder, always the victim, and never guilty of anything. I'll make you a deal, I'll stop calling out your bias and lack of integrity when you stop posting threads like this one. I'll also stop calling out lies, deceit, and personal attacks from Tracy Anne when they stop happening. I haven't treated you poorly, I wasn't the person that started a thread titled "boycott Fuduntu" and claimed that we are nasty to our user base. That was you. I didn't throw out insults and call anyone an idiot, that was Tracy Anne. The worst thing I did was imply that LXer was a clique and implied that they were intentionally pushing our posts down the queue - and look at you two making threats and stomping your feet like little children over it. After Scott openly admitted modifying the queue which I took as 'oh, that confirms my suspicion but maybe it isn't personal' and was going to leave it alone had Tracy Anne not slung more mud, because I was satisfied with that answer. With Carla Shroder deciding to attack me and the project that I work on after Scott said enough was enough and closed the original thread. I haven't abused any of you personally, it has been the other way around. I've admitted, and apologized for stepping outside of the boundaries of civility though and yet you reply with another vile attack. Pathetic, really .. really pathetic. |
| gus3 Nov 04, 2012 5:04 PM EDT |
If "grow the fsck up" isn't an attack, then I'm caitlyn. Yeah, right, in some alternate universe maybe. |
| Ridcully Nov 04, 2012 5:18 PM EDT |
@gus3.....I'll second your comments and add that the statement made by newspost was rude, crude and totally uncalled for. Wowser I am not, but common courtesy should prevail on this site. Debate and conflicting opinions are great and instructive; expletives help nobody and are degrading to the person using them. |
| bob Nov 04, 2012 9:41 PM EDT |
Andrew Wyatt (alias newspost, fweticus, few7, toecheesejesus, F3w7, f3wt, and fewt) has permanently lost his privileges as an LXer member. Read this to see the reasons for my decision. |
| tuxchick Nov 04, 2012 10:59 PM EDT |
Thank you, Bob! |
| Bob_Robertson Nov 05, 2012 10:23 AM EDT |
Fascinating. |
| caitlyn Nov 05, 2012 11:46 AM EDT |
I think this is unfortunate all the way around. I fully understand, and in light of the latest posts, support Bob's decision.. I also really do understand were Carla is coming from. What I just don't understand why Andrew couldn't let this go or deal with it in a polite and civil manner. In other fora he's contributed in a positive way and his contributions to the Linux community are not insubstantial. There is a good reason why other distros have picked up his Jupiter app. Oh well... |
| andyprough Nov 05, 2012 11:47 AM EDT |
@Bob_Robertson -- "Fascinating" Agreed - fascinating - in a very bad way. Another lens into the in-fighting that keeps Linux a distant 3rd in the race for the desktop market? Can't really blame people though - attitude starts at the top. |
| caitlyn Nov 05, 2012 11:54 AM EDT |
@andyprough: I don't agree with your assessment. Linux (as in Android) is in a majority position on both tablets (which some of the market research companies count as desktops) and on smartphones. On the desktop Linux penetration, while difficult to measure accurately, is very close behind Apple. Of course, Microsoft still controls about 80% of the traditional desktop. (Their own publicly stated figure is 84%.) For most consumers and businesses the infighting is invisible. They never see or care about the fora where it happens. The main reasons Linux hasn;t done better on the desktop is the lack of readily available preloaded systems combined with inertia and familiarity. With Windows 8 Microsoft threw out the famliarity of the interface. If you doubt what I'm saying just take a look at how well Linux sold on netbooks. |
| Bob_Robertson Nov 05, 2012 12:57 PM EDT |
If I may try to substantiate the "distant third" assertion, since I agree with it, Android isn't a choice, neither is iOS. Both come preinstalled. People looking at a phone don't see the OS, they see the apps. Servers were won by Linux, but people don't see them. Our "World Wide Web" is itself a car-hood welded shut because what is under the hood is complete hidden from the users. Windows, Mac, Linux, "desktops" is where the OS is seen and dealt with. When I look at the main menu button, by whatever name or icon it's known, that is where the eyeballs meet the OS. And the in-your-face market does in fact leave Linux as a distant third. I like to blame preinstallation. If it works, people are not going to mess with it. And "most" people, when things start going wrong, toss it out and get a new one with the preinstallation again. I agree with Caitlyn that the tablets sold well with Linux, very well. But did it -say- Linux? If not, then that's not what people thought they were getting. |
| jdixon Nov 05, 2012 2:14 PM EDT |
> I think this is unfortunate all the way around. Agreed completely. I can't say he didn't contribute mightily to the decision, but it's a shame it came to this. |
| JaseP Nov 05, 2012 2:59 PM EDT |
I also agree that it's a shame all around... First,... Funduntu is a nice distribution, and possesses an aesthetic that I like as well (I have not used it, however, as I am partial to Debian based distros). I do, however, use Jupiter on my machines, and very much appreciate how simple it is to use & how well it works on them. But more importantly,... I wish that people here would refrain from personal attacks, veiled or otherwise,... In BOTH directions,... It really makes me not want to read stories posted here and makes me want to refrain from posting in the forums as well,... In fact, I would kind of prefer it if the involved threads were locked, deleted or archived, or whatever the forum software permits. Heated debates and opinions are fine (including disagreements), but when they devolve into personal attacks, I think they detract from the issues, and turn the forum into an episode of Jerry Springer (my apologies to those from outside the US, who are not aware of that TV show). This forum's adherence to the TOS makes it a nice resting place from other forums that permit profanity and uncivil behavior ... A "classy joint." I really don't want to see that change. |
| andyprough Nov 05, 2012 5:22 PM EDT |
@Caitlyn -- two of the wealthiest companies the world has ever seen make their wealth by selling OS's for laptops and desktops that are NOT Linux -- 'nuf said. @JaseP -- "I wish that people here would refrain from personal attacks, veiled or otherwise,... In BOTH directions,... It really makes me not want to read stories posted here and makes me want to refrain from posting in the forums as well" -- As I said - attitude starts at the top. As long as Linux fans cheerlead for Torvalds every time he tells a Distro volunteer to just "go kill themselves", or tells them their solutions are "c***" or "s***" or calls them "Taliban", or tells a hardware manufacturer to just go "f___ yourself", then we are just going to get more of the same in the community. And keep in mind - these are just recent examples from the past few months. It's your dear and glorious leaders that have fostered this openly hostile and abusive mentality. It won't stop until they get shouted down for their intolerable behavior -- Bullies never stop until someone walks right up and punches them in the nose. |
| caitlyn Nov 05, 2012 5:37 PM EDT |
@andyprough: Sorry, I still don't agree with pretty much anything you've written here and no, clearly not 'nuf said. How much money is Google, a Linux company, making? Laptops and desktops are seeing their marketshare erode as a new generation of mobile devices are in ever wider use, especially in the consumer market. Also, Macintosh is a very small percentage of Apple's revenue stream. The lion's share belongs to iPods, iPads and iPhones. Under the hood MacOS is FreeBSD plus a very nice proprietary GUI called Aqua. So, the guts of MacOS are FOSS. Yes, Linus Torvalds is a colorful character and many of his comments are taken with a grain of salt accordingly. OTOH, he usually is pointing out real and deep seated problems with the projects he criticizes. The bottom line is that the general public is blissfully unaware of all of this. The idea that this somehow hinders Linux is pretty funny. JaseP gets it right in this case. The leadership here, specifically the publisher of the website stepped in to make sure things stay civil on this website. While I, like JaseP, appreciate what Andrew develops and his contributions to the Linux ecosystem, his inability to let things go really was his downfall here. I know there are times when I became really frustrated and decided to take a vacation from this site. It's a pity that in his case it is an enforced and rather permanent vacation. Most of the time I value his insights and opinions. |
| Ridcully Nov 05, 2012 6:06 PM EDT |
@andyprough.......Just one tiny perspective from your above post as I read it: you are (in my humble opinion) in your vehemence almost taking up the position you are trying to attack. To return to "@Everybody", yes, it's unfortunate, but I agree with Bob completely, and I return to my first post on this thread in which I stated: "This is the second time recently that I have seen "newspost" involved in a "slanging match" on LXer. " I cannot remember ever having made such a comment on LXer before which indicates just how "intense" I thought the thread was getting. Debates get heated certainly, but as Caitlyn implies above, they remain civil and without personal attack. There is no place, in my opinion, for sheer crudity on this site and as I said personally to one of the editors on Sunday, it is the absence of such crudity that makes LXer such a welcome exception to normal blogs. As for bullying or similar stances, I have never felt I was not able to put forward my point of view. Others don't have to agree with it, and usually say so, but I have never felt threatened or "put down" by differences of opinion. They lead to progress, either over all, or in my personal concepts and understandings. Time to put the whole episode to the shelves of history I think, and get on with the real aims of this site which to me have always been to promote and enjoy the world of FOSS.......and its interactions with the world of IT in general. 2c :-) |
| BernardSwiss Nov 05, 2012 8:00 PM EDT |
@andyprough I like to trot out this gem, back from the heyday of the netbooks (before Microsoft and Intel both imposed assrmbly/pricing restriction on OEMs about what components could be assembled into what kind of systems -- regardless of what the customers were looking for) Quoting:Asus has blamed Intel not Microsoft for the apparent absence of the Atom-based Eee PC 901 from UK suppliers' shelves That's right: the OEM actually said in as many words that, even though Linux was selling much better than Windows -- to the point that customers were complaining they could only find the less popular product -- the OEM was going to continue producing the unpopular version at the expense of the more popular version. In other news reports Asus even refered to it's "commitment" to produce these netbooks in equal numbers. And remember -- Asus was the OEM that kicked off the whole netbook craze. As I recall, the "Atom shortage" was somewhat dubious in nature, as well. And if I recall correctly, somehow the quantity of Linux 901 shipments never actually matched Windows 901 shipments once the "atom shortage" cleared up. And that's just one story. There's the unholy alliance between many Big Box chains and Microsoft to FUD Linux Microsoft 'indoctrinates' Best Buy workers with anti-Linux 'lies' Not to mention the tendency in big-box chains for nice, Linux-friendly gear to suddenly be "out of stock --so sorry" when customers reveal an intention to load Linux on to them. There's lot's more, if anyone pays attention and has a decent memory, or cares to do the research. As for the "frank and open discussion" in Linux development circles being responsible for Linux not equalling MS and Apple in the desktop market? Well, Microsoft and Apple are definitely known for having "extravagant" behind-the-scenes "drama". Both Jobs and Ballmer are notorious for "expressing their opinions forcefully", and there are anonymous employee blogs like Mini-Microsoft where awkward and/or contentious issues are raised. Microsoft in particular is often called out for its rather toxic office politics. So I'd call this whole issue not only a red herring, but another example of the pervasive double-standard applied against Linux. |
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