Deathwish ?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Ridcully Oct 30, 2012 2:44 AM EDT |
Okay, the subject title is purely cynical - but I cannot help thinking that in practical terms, it has more than a little reality. Every article I read (with few exceptions, and then coming from writers who even support Windows fiascoes) suggests that conventional Windows users have a terrible time trying to use Win8 on the desktop/laptop and that the OS is trying to be both "fish and fowl and failing at both". Then there is the mandated use of UEFI with Win8 and the increasing revolt of the gaming companies. I have believed for a long time that games would bring Linux to the desktop - this appears to be happening as the gaming companies look to Linux for an open OS that is not locked down into "Microsoft only" mode - or at least that is how I see it. I wonder if other Win-based proprietary software companies will revolt as well. To me, Microsoft is now like a dinosaur that is running out of users to consume and unable to adapt to the changing circumstances because its commercial model is now almost irrelevant. Desktop/laptop numbers are falling and Redmond is desperate to break into the smartphone and pad markets because it can see reducing revenues from its conventional users. However, I am not sure that Win8 is the answer. So far, all my information at the phone level indicates that Windows smartphones are being left at the station.......Pads and so forth ? I just don't know. But Win8 on a conventional desktop/laptop computer sounds like a disaster area to me. I strongly suspect Win7 will be like WinXP - business will NOT migrate to an OS that actively prevents serious workplace activity and everything I am able to read suggests that Win8 does not improve conventional workplace operations in any way. Laptops and desktops running Win7 will be treasured and kept running as long as possible - just as happened with WinXP. Three years ago, a friend of mine and myself (and he is a Linux devotee as well) stated that at a particular point in that year that we believed Redmond had crossed the line in the sand and we were beginning to watch the start of the decline and fall of the Microsoft empire. Unfortunately, I cannot remember what that trigger was, but I know we both reckoned it was the beginning of the process......All I see now is slow but steady acceleration. Update........This is now on The Register (Australian news). The prosecution rests M'Lud. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/10/26/windows-8-australian... And here is how at least one of the Kiwis see it: http://www.stuff.co.nz/technology/gadgets/7868661/Tim-Cook-c... |
| r_a_trip Oct 30, 2012 4:28 AM EDT |
Not really a deathwish. MS is mostly out of touch with their customers, their OEM's and reality in general. They lack a strong goal, now that Bill's dream of a (desktop) computer in every home is almost reality. In the eighties MS was one of the driving forces behind the PC revolution, in the nineties MS was the good enough answer to the Unix(tm) mess. During the noughties they coasted on their past successes. Now? What are they the answer to? It seems others are the answer to MS. MS knows they missed out on search, on cloud, on mobile. They are scrambling to get back in, but they can't let go of their old ways of trying to cram it down everyones throat. Times have changed. MS doesn't set the beat anymore. I've recently played with Windows 8 Pro (RTM). When looking at it as a pure tablet interface, it is pretty slick and functional. Albeit a bit undiscoverable. when you don't get into desktop mode, it does work for its intended purpose. Where MS stumbled badly, is the (non-)integration of Metro in the desktop. Metro is not a start menu replacement. It's absolutely ludicrous to use a full-blown tablet interface to drive the traditional desktop. If they would have taken a few style cues from Metro and integrated that in a modernized start menu, it would have been a lot better. Something along the lines of the KDE4 menu, but combine it with smaller Metro tiles and place it on top of AND within the desktop. But MS thinks they can set the pace and you better like their tablet stuff... |
| Ridcully Oct 30, 2012 4:42 AM EDT |
Remember, r_a_trip, I did say the subject heading was "cynical".....I definitely do agree with you on the aspect of "Times have changed. MS doesn't set the beat anymore."......I have seen at least a few articles indicating that OEMs are no longer marching solely to the Redmond beat.......That alone offers enormous hope for the future. |
| dinotrac Oct 30, 2012 9:10 AM EDT |
Implementation is everything, of course, but... I've had an Asus Transformer for the last year and I have to tell you -- the idea has merit. I love using it as a tablet and I love using it as a netbook, except that -- I wish the apps had more oomph to them. I really like the Metro interface on phones, even though I use android. It seems that some clever folks could make that work on a desktop if they don't cripple what lies beneath. Of course, they ARE starting with Windows... |
| r_a_trip Oct 30, 2012 11:46 AM EDT |
Repeat after me. Touch based interfaces are bad on large, high precision, mouse and keyboard driven machines. |
| dinotrac Oct 30, 2012 11:47 AM EDT |
@r_a_trip: Saying it over and over doesn't make it so. |
| r_a_trip Oct 30, 2012 12:54 PM EDT |
Then show me one where the majority goes gaga over and forms lines to get it as soon as possible. |
| Fettoosh Oct 30, 2012 1:56 PM EDT |
Quoting:Saying it over and over doesn't make it so. No need to keep saying it, they will find out when they get tired trying to keep doing it. :-) |
| dinotrac Oct 30, 2012 4:32 PM EDT |
@r_a_trip -- Better to ask Asus. They've sold a pile of Transformers. |
| caitlyn Oct 30, 2012 5:18 PM EDT |
For whatever reason Apple, Microsoft, Google, Canonical, Red Hat and Novell/SUSE have all decided the one size fits all desktop is the wave of the future. I included Red Hat and SUSE because they employ the lion's share of GNOME developers. Microsoft is actually the last significant OS vendor to fall in line with the desktop formerly known as Metro. What they're doing here is playing catch-up. This is one time where playing follow the leader may actually hurt them. OTOH, I am reading more and more stories where the Linux user community is warming to Unity and GNOME 3. The younger kids definitely are most comfortable with this sort of interface. I've been running openSUSE 12.2 with GNOME 3 lately and I must say that I don't care for the interface on a desktop without a touch screen. Of course, I'm older and have long developed computing habits. For the younger crowd this style of desktop may just work out well. There is history to back that up: Linux netbooks. Xandros Presto!, Linpus Lite and HP Mi all came with this sort of desktop interface. As we all know, ASUS and Acer sold a ton of netbooks with Xandros or Linpus and a lot of people were happy with those interfaces. I hate to say it but this did all start with vendors selling Linux, not in Redmond or Cupertino. A lot of very smart people have worked on these desktops and a lot of companies have invested heavily in them. What do they see that we don't see? |
| dinotrac Oct 30, 2012 5:19 PM EDT |
@caitlyn -- I was a little surprised to discover that, after spending time with my Transformer, I couldn't use a regular notebook without touching the screen. A mix of keyboard and touchscreen can be amazingly effective for some things. |
| caitlyn Oct 30, 2012 5:35 PM EDT |
@dino: I'm actually not that surprised. I think once I'd get used to the new workflow I might feel the same way. It depends how much of my work could be done by touch. As a systems administrator/systems architect I suspect it's not much of my professional work. My personal use may be different. |
| dinotrac Oct 30, 2012 5:53 PM EDT |
@caitly -- OTOH -- I would absolutely HATE to use a touch interface without a touch screen. |
| Ridcully Oct 30, 2012 6:01 PM EDT |
I strongly agree with r_a_trip's comment: "Repeat after me. Touch based interfaces are bad on large, high precision, mouse and keyboard driven machines." What no-one above is mentioning is the simple fact of "ergonomics"......The standard mouse and keyboard driven laptops/desktops allow the user to rest the forearm on the desktop during long periods of time. This is crucial to muscle strain if you are using these standard computers for an 8 hour day. Now try doing the same thing with one or two arms waving in the air to touch the screen all the time.....especially when working with graphics.....An occasional touch is nothing, but I do believe that constant work like that would be rather unpleasant. A hand held pad or smartphone is ideal for touch functions - it's almost an analogue of the positions of the keyboard and mouse. On the other hand, a vertical display screen on a desktop simply isn't the same thing. We already have various muscle stress syndromes associated with over use of the standard keyboard and mouse arrangement.....I think a whole new range of upper arm muscle ailments is just waiting around the corner. 2cents. :-) |
| dinotrac Oct 30, 2012 6:07 PM EDT |
I use mouse and keyboard all the time, but I must disagree with you on one thing: The mouse is about the worst ergonomic device I have ever encountered. My wrists will never forgive me. |
| caitlyn Oct 30, 2012 6:13 PM EDT |
Mice and keyboards are often blamed for carpal tunnel syndrome. I've been spared, thankfully, but I know many IT types who have needed surgery. |
| Ridcully Oct 30, 2012 6:22 PM EDT |
Dinotrac and Caitlyn......no disagreement from me as I think you are both spot on. Constant use of both mouse and keyboard does some dreadful things. I rearranged my mousepad and key board positions so I could rest my forearm and take a lot of the stress out of things. Even so, I do get muscle aches if I overdo it. Now transfer those problems to a constantly lifting arm put directly out in front of you. There is an old film called "The Black Shield of Falworth" starring Tony Curtis, where a nasty punishment is to be forced to stand with a kilogram-sized rock on the palm of your hand, but with the arm stretched straight out in front of you........The results are obvious, and our hero has very unpleasant muscle fatigue pain. Sure, that's an extreme case, but keep doing it with the smaller weight of just the forearm over much longer periods and the cumulative results should be just the same. Touch screens are great - I marvel at what the kids do (even though I won't touch them myself - sorry about that pun), but I do think they have dangers in the wrong place. |
| dinotrac Oct 30, 2012 6:25 PM EDT |
@rid -- I actually like what they've shown in some TV shows and movies -- a big flat screen laying horizontal. That said -- When I use the Transformer, it is primarily keyboard, with convenient uses of the touchscreen. Amazing how nice the ability to swipe something along is. |
| Ridcully Oct 30, 2012 6:35 PM EDT |
@Dino.....yes, I think the horizontal flat screen would work because it transfers the stress to normal arm positions, or even one tilted a bit....While I don't use it myself, I can understand the combination of swipe and conventional input could be quite useful. One thing occurs to me though: supermarket checkout workers who generally DO work with touch screens held vertical - and that is enormously repetitive for long periods. Admittedly, their arms are not straight out but usually "crooked" as they stand right beside the touch screen. It would be interesting to see if those workers ever have problems in the arms. And guess what ? They do: http://consumer.healthday.com/encyclopedia/article.asp?AID=6... If you search on supermarket checkout arm problems as a starting point.....you'll find them. Admittedly, the above article is on the Scanner but........note this statement in the article: Quoting:"On the older machines, you could rest your hands," recalls Williams, a shop steward with the United Food and Commercial Workers union (UFCW), which represents grocery store employees. "But with the scanner your hands were totally suspended, with the constant motion of pulling groceries across it. And you could tell right away there was a problem. My neck had gotten real stiff, and I started to drop things at work and at home as well. It hurt up to my shoulders." The key words are "totally suspended"........just like the vertical touch screens want. |
| dinotrac Oct 30, 2012 6:41 PM EDT |
Yeah -- I would hate to work the way they work. Looks like a recipe for disaster. |
| tracyanne Oct 30, 2012 6:48 PM EDT |
I was chatting with the people who run the kingaroy flOptus shop yesterday, and they told me that they haven't had any enquiries for the Win 8 pads, while Android based phone and tablets, and the Apple ones sell like hot cakes at a country fair. |
| Ridcully Oct 30, 2012 6:54 PM EDT |
Funny you should say that Tracyanne - the Kingaroy Telstra shop tells me the same thing, about one sale in 6 months, while the Telstra shop at a large Brisbane shopping centre (Toombul I think) simply said that they have so little requests for Win-based phones that they no longer stock them and their total sales amounts to a big zero. And in each case, Android (and to a lesser extent Apple) is almost walking out of the store by itself. Android is seen as the best way to go by the kids and adult users. |
| tracyanne Oct 30, 2012 7:14 PM EDT |
I was also looking at a PC World and the cover showed a picture of Win 8 0n a PC with the words Fail stamped on it |
| jdixon Oct 30, 2012 7:41 PM EDT |
> OTOH -- I would absolutely HATE to use a touch interface without a touch screen. I think that's the key. Most current desktop systems do not have a touch screen. Without that, these interfaces fall flat. |
| Ridcully Oct 30, 2012 9:12 PM EDT |
@jdixon......You have opened a can of worms I know absolutely nothing about and had never really thought about before. Thankyou. If I understand you correctly, what you are implying above is that it needs a specially constructed screen to respond to touch or swipe commands, and that in turns suggests to me that virtually ALL the laptop/desktop screens out there at the moment are unable to run Win8's touch screen ? If that is the case, there is almost a double whammy in the business world......not only will they not want to upgrade to Win8 because as yet they haven't recouped their outlay for Win7, but additionally, they will have to outlay extra money on hardware before they can even begin to run Win8 in touch mode at the workplace. I know Redmond wants to be seen as "innovative", but trying to put a touch screen operated OS for desktops and laptops into a consumer market that first doesn't have the required hardware, and second is now steadily moving away from both those devices towards pads and smartphones, sounds a bit strange to me - even for Microsoft. Given that fact, I am no longer surprised by some of the articles that predict Win8 to be the next Vista. |
| dinotrac Oct 30, 2012 9:57 PM EDT |
@ridcully -- Win8 will wish for Vista's success. |
| Ridcully Oct 30, 2012 10:02 PM EDT |
@Dinotrac.......masterfully put - as always !! LOL !! |
| jdixon Oct 30, 2012 10:41 PM EDT |
> ...what you are implying above is that it needs a specially constructed screen to respond to touch or swipe commands... Yes. A touch sensitive screen is a hardware device. A normal LCD monitor has no touch sensitive capability. You can buy touch sensitive screens to place over an existing monitor, but that's honestly a kludge. And monitors with built in touch screens are quite a bit more expensive than regular LCD monitors. I don't expect these type of UI's to catch on for regular desktop use until touch screen monitors largely replace normal LCD monitors, and I don't see that happening for several years yet. |
| Ridcully Oct 30, 2012 10:52 PM EDT |
Thanks Jdixon........given your info, my comment about business resisting touch screen deployment sounds even more relevant. As regards the general consumer, probably new purchases of Win8 computers is the only way the combo of Win8 and touch screens is going to penetrate. Like you said: several years yet. Personally, I have no use for the facility. |
| theboomboomcars Oct 30, 2012 11:21 PM EDT |
It seems a good combination would be to replace the mouse with a phone or tablet sized device (or a phone or tablet) that shows what is on the screen. That way you have the advantages of a touch input, with out the drawback of having to manipulate a large bit of real estate that is in an inconvenient place to touch all the time. |
| r_a_trip Oct 31, 2012 3:58 AM EDT |
I might have failed to mention it, but I tried that Win 8 pro on a system with a two point touchscreen monitor. While it is cool to swipe through the tiles for the first 10 times and touch them to launch an app, it becomes tiresome fairly quickly. You have to lift your arm and stretch it out to reach the screen. That is not a sustainable position. Typing on the onscreen keyboard is even worse. You fairly quickly go back to mouse and keyboard. Since the mouse is a pixel precision device, the size of the tiles becomes comical. It's like you're using a guided missile to shoot at a target 3 feet away. That is why I said "Touch based interfaces are bad on large, high precision, mouse and keyboard driven machines." Notice the large, as in screen sizes above 16". While the transformer is a nice gadget, it is still a handheld device. I did goof it up though, it's not touch based interface per se, but touch based tailored for handheld devices. Win 8 has the latter. |
| Ridcully Oct 31, 2012 6:22 AM EDT |
You know, r_a_trip, this particular thread ought to go more public than even LXer . What has been debated here casts light on the stupidity of using touch screens as the principal method of work place interaction on large, precision screens when those particular work places are designed for mouse and key board. I find it hard to believe that Microsoft does not already know about the medical/physiological drawbacks of consistently using a touch screen in these standard work places. But given what I know of the ethics of Redmond, I'd guess that nothing will be said because profit is seen as more important than possible permanent damage to the user. |
| Fettoosh Oct 31, 2012 8:09 AM EDT |
I agreed in a brief statement with what r_a_trip said about large screen interface, but I disagree in the case of making a presentation on big screen. Like classroom lectures, weather broadcasting and election results on TV etc. In such cases, touch screen interface is ideal.[edited: idle] Like Dino said, I say touch screen interface is great for hand held devices and combined with mouse and keyboard is even better if not ideal.[edited: idle] Taking technology a little further, how about eye lids-focus actuated interface? That should avoid any physical hardship and damage but improve eye sight by exercising the eyes. :-) |
| dinotrac Oct 31, 2012 9:22 AM EDT |
@fettoosh -- Eye-tracking interfaces are already in development. They are presently in back-order due to demand from jealous wives. |
| caitlyn Oct 31, 2012 11:25 AM EDT |
Quoting:I find it hard to believe that Microsoft does not already know about the medical/physiological drawbacks of consistently using a touch screen in these standard work places. But given what I know of the ethics of Redmond, I'd guess that nothing will be said because profit is seen as more important than possible permanent damage to the user.I hate to repeat myself but... Asus, Acer, Apple, Red Hat, Novell/SUSE and Canonical all went down this road before Microsoft. All Redmond is doing is playing what they undoubtedly perceive as catching up. I've never been one to act as an apologist for Microsoft or to miss a fair chance to take a swipe at them but in this case they simply aren't the driving force behind the change in desktop paradigm. http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2012/04/the-new-desktop-paradig... |
| Fettoosh Oct 31, 2012 11:41 AM EDT |
Quoting:They are presently in back-order due to demand from jealous wives. Thanks Dino for the good laugh, that is a good one. Fortunately I wasn't holding or drinking from a filled cup. LOL |
| r_a_trip Oct 31, 2012 12:03 PM EDT |
Peeps, if the touch interface is specifically designed for a large screen area of 16" and larger and it takes in to account that it will be used in a vertical position, then bring it on. MS didn't do this. They took their 10" tablet interface, made it scale up with larger screens and plonked it in as a(n inadequate) start menu replacement. Probably in the hope of getting people used and hooked to it, so that they can finally start shifting tablets and phones. It's true that these crazy interfaces started with the netbook. But on a netbook with practically no screen area to waste, the trade off made sense. On big screens? No. I get the feeling that youngsters love these new interfaces, because it's different from the "stodgy" interfaces the older guard uses (gotta be a rebel) and they haven't had to be productive in a way that had their butt on the line. If there is no pressure to perform, these new toy interfaces get the job done, albeit too slow and clumsy. But if you need to write that report and you need to write it now, because your boss wanted that report yesterday and he graciously told you this morning to go do it, these interfaces will drive you mad. |
| BernardSwiss Oct 31, 2012 5:48 PM EDT |
(The previous arguments not withstanding), I assume that touch interfaces for large screens are going to eventually incorporate interface embellishments to conveniently enable greater precision, when desired or necessary. I also assume that executive offices will have special VIP desks with "desktop" screens built into the actual desktop. Perhaps "twinned" with a more conventional, more vertical screen. Such arrangements appear to be already be establishing a presence in appropriate specialities such as some CAD work and special use scenarios (for example, workstations or "worktables" as presented in CSI seem credible). ??? |
| caitlyn Oct 31, 2012 7:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:I get the feeling that youngsters love these new interfaces, because it's different from the "stodgy" interfaces the older guard uses (gotta be a rebel) and they haven't had to be productive in a way that had their butt on the line. If there is no pressure to perform, these new toy interfaces get the job done, albeit too slow and clumsy.You've obviously never seen my nieces or nephew with those interfaces. Teens today, who see that interface as natural, fly on it in a way I never could. |
| Ridcully Oct 31, 2012 9:03 PM EDT |
Permit me to second Caitlyn's remarks on the amazing ability of youngsters to use the touch interfaces of smartphones and pads. I watch them at it and sit back staggered at what they can do with a few touches, swipes, "squeezes", etc. etc. - and they learn young too. At a restaurant recently, I watched a 5 year old playing a game on a device resembling a pad. To play it required finger touches and swipes and she did it without even missing a beat. All of this makes me really feel antique. To these youngsters, it's simply how you interact with these hand held computers. To me, well, honestly, it's "white man's magic" as they used to say and I shall remain content to watch, marvel, return to the known and friendly enclosure of mouse and keyboard. |
| r_a_trip Nov 01, 2012 4:02 AM EDT |
I have no doubt that young people fly with these interface on pads and phones. I have no problem with these interfaces on pads and phones. They are designed to be usable on pads and phones. What i do have a problem with, is these interfaces on anything other than pads and phones. It is an ill fit. Quickly swiping and tapping on a "PC era" device? Even if it has touch capabilities, it is cumbersome. In their quest to make "one size fits all" a reality, interface designers are destroying 20 years of developments on large screen, mouse and keyboard controlled devices. KDE has the right idea. Use modular software and adjust the interface to the type of device used. |
| tracyanne Nov 01, 2012 5:32 AM EDT |
Quoting:KDE has the right idea. Use modular software and adjust the interface to the type of device used. indeed. |
| Ridcully Nov 01, 2012 6:35 AM EDT |
Indeed, indeed......which brings us right back to the start. The way I see it, you cannot use the same system of touch interaction that is great on hand-held and largely horizontal oriented smartphones/pads when you shift to the conventional desktop which consists of more or less vertically oriented interfaces designed to be controlled by mouse and keyboard. In my book, KDE has the concept correct; Win8 doesn't. |
| caitlyn Nov 01, 2012 4:47 PM EDT |
I agree with the last three comments about KDE. However, I am not at all convinced that younger people will see the new desktop paradigm the way we do. To them it's simply familiar and comfortable. Speaking of kids, a coworker and I were exchanging stories about the ones in our family. My coworker was describing his five and eight year old daughters providing technical support to older members of the family and just how easy computer technology is for them. Perhaps, finally, the idea of socializing girls away from technology is dying a much needed and belated death. That gives me hope that sexism in IT may follow. |
| dinotrac Nov 01, 2012 4:55 PM EDT |
@caitlyn - Girls can work computers? Won't their Barbies get jealous? |
| caitlyn Nov 01, 2012 4:57 PM EDT |
LOL. One of my friends got her niece a Computer Engineer Barbie. Yes, such things exist. |
| tracyanne Nov 01, 2012 5:19 PM EDT |
Sorry everyone. Tony private message |
| dinotrac Nov 01, 2012 8:27 PM EDT |
@caitlyn -- Cool. I still remember 7-8 years ago shopping for Lego blocks for my youngest girl. We were trying to decide which set to get, and I'm sure we were saying things like "Do you think she'll like this one or that one?" A woman came up to us and told us we shouldn't get any of them because girls don't like such things. We were flabbergasted. |
| Ridcully Nov 02, 2012 7:17 AM EDT |
Barbie dolls ? Hah !!!!!!! My daughter, bless her, loves doing two things here on our 5.75 acres: riding the rideon mower and slaughtering long grass........and second, using the mulcher to chop up twigs and branches to make mulch. She says it's an outlet for her destructive tendencies......LOL. And at school, she was a librarian, and is now a proud possessor of a Librarian Technician's diploma........ Barbies didn't really work. I wonder what that woman would say about our lovely daughter. |
| dinotrac Nov 02, 2012 10:00 AM EDT |
@rid: ;) All three of our daughters played with Barbies or assorted other dolls at some point. Which is ok. So long as they build stuff and run around and read, etc. |
| gus3 Nov 02, 2012 12:00 PM EDT |
My ex played with a Barbie for precisely one day. The day after she got it, it was hanging by a noose from her bedroom ceiling fan. |
| caitlyn Nov 02, 2012 12:17 PM EDT |
Quoting:A woman came up to us and told us we shouldn't get any of them because girls don't like such things.That reminds me of when I walked into CompUSA maybe 12 years ago to pick up a boxed copy of Red Hat. An oh-so-helpful young man came up to me and volunteered his concern that Linux would be too hard for me. He advised me to pick up Windows instead. I politely informed him that I was a Network Engineer with IBM (true at the time, albeit as a contractor) and that I supported UNIX and Linux professionally. He stammered and walked away. Don't you love it when people project their stereotypes and prejudices onto you? No? Me neither. |
| gus3 Nov 02, 2012 12:24 PM EDT |
@caitlyn, did you inform the store manager of your poor treatment? |
| caitlyn Nov 02, 2012 12:53 PM EDT |
@gus3: Yes. The same kid was still there a month later. |
| Ridcully Nov 02, 2012 2:42 PM EDT |
@Caitlyn...Good for you, and well done - I don't like being patronised either. Personally, I'd be terrified of picking up a boxed copy of any Windows version .....my experience of knowing a little of Windows' "foibles" went "out the window" with the departure of Win98SE. WinXP I can handle, sorta, but that's it. Don't need Windows and don't want it. |
| BernardSwiss Nov 02, 2012 4:21 PM EDT |
Anyone who's ever had to fight with their sisters over the Lego pieces ain't gonna swallow that stereotype (I had two -- I was older, but they outnumbered me). |
| BernardSwiss Nov 02, 2012 4:23 PM EDT |
@Caitlyn I had similar experiences at 'big box" stores -- it might say more about Linux stereotypes than about gender stereotypes. |
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