Was there really no alternative to this?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| penguinist Jun 01, 2012 2:59 PM EDT |
Fedora has been traditionally the flag-bearer for Free and Open Source Software. To me, this decision to relinquish control to Microsoft is a slippery slope which might have been a convenient expedient, but I'm skeptical that it will benefit software freedom in the long run. In fact, I predict that this will hurt software freedom in the not so distant future. Fedora's decision does nothing to preserve our freedom to install the OS and distribution of our choice. This is a "point solution" convenient only to Fedora, and does nothing to insure that users in general continue to have the freedom to install their prefered Linux distro on the computers they purchase. Is every Linux distribution now needing Microsoft's permission before a user is free to install it, or is there someone who will stand up to Microsoft and plant a foot in the ground against this heavy-handed monopoly? |
| Bob_Robertson Jun 01, 2012 3:05 PM EDT |
I will not buy a machine with that boot ROM unable to be disabled. Hopefully, I will not be alone. Let Windows refuse to boot without it turned on, if it must. |
| skelband Jun 01, 2012 3:57 PM EDT |
"...use a digital key from Microsoft. " That there is the problem. A software company now determines what you can and cannot run on your computer. It puts them in a very unusual position and it worries me. It worries me most because Microsoft don't actually make or sell hardware. What is interesting though is is might encourage the interest in hardware not built specifically for Windows. |
| rexbinary Jun 01, 2012 4:08 PM EDT |
I misunderstood this at first. The secure boot hardware feature can be disabled. It's not required to boot WIn 8. It's only required to be enabled for an OEM to put the 'Certified for Windows 8' sticker on the case. So if you do purchase a Certified for Windows 8 machine, you can simply disable secure boot and install Linux or even dual boot WIn 8 and LInux. The Fedora Project decided they didn't want 'Joe Enduser' to have to dig into the BIOS just to install Fedora on a Certified for Window 8 machine, so they bought a key and will sign Fedora 18 with it so 'Joe Enduser' doesn't have to touch the BIOS. Or at least that's the current plan for Fedora 18. |
| skelband Jun 01, 2012 4:18 PM EDT |
@rexbinary: The danger is that Microsoft will *privately* insist on there being no disable option, whatever they say in public. And for the Arm version, they have public stated as policy that there will be *no* disablement permitted for Windows 8 machines. |
| Ridcully Jun 01, 2012 4:19 PM EDT |
Quick Question.......Okay, so to run Win8 the BIOS must be able to give Win8 the necessary digital certificate. And you can turn this BIOS feature off so that you can now run a pure Linux computer......Now, I have little experience with VM's so I have no idea of the "machinations" and this may be a ridiculous question. So, what happens if you now want to install a virtual Win8 machine ? Can you or can't you ? |
| skelband Jun 01, 2012 4:21 PM EDT |
My understanding is that it is the other way around. The hardware will only load and run a signed boot image. And Windows 8 won't really care. I could be wrong on this point though. |
| rexbinary Jun 01, 2012 4:26 PM EDT |
skelband, I never said there was no danger, we're talking about Microsoft :) Ridcully, as it stands right now, Win 8 does not require the secure boot feature. If it did, that means no one with existing PCs could upgrade to Win 8 without buying a new PC with the secure boot feature. So yes you can install WIn 8 into a virtual machine. Now if Microsoft's EULA permits it is another story. Generally Microsoft's EULA only allows enterprise editions of WIndows to be installed into virtual machines. |
| Fettoosh Jun 01, 2012 4:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:Quick Question..... @Ridcully, If you have Fedora 18 with "Secure Boat Anchor", you should be able to run Windows 8 in virtual machine. But if you have "Secure Boat Loader" disabled, you will not be able to run Windows 8 at all, even if you have a dual boot or pure Windows machine. So, one good thing about Fedora's setup is that you will be able to use Windows 8 as usual. I believe that is why Fedora were in such a rush to implement their solution. If you stay away from Windows 8 and use any previous Windows, you should be OK. I guess that is what most people are going to do, whether they run Linux with Windows or not. If Windows 8 doesn't get good reception because of this fiasco, MS might change its strategy. I believe they are throwing a trial balloon and unfortunately Fedora jumped on it. |
| penguinist Jun 01, 2012 5:44 PM EDT |
I feel fortunate that I'm working in a branch of IT where Linux server technology reins supreme, so considerations like dual-boot and Windows VMs are not too interesting to me. In fact, I am very proud to be able to say is that I have never used Windows 7 or 8. I've walked past it in stores but I've never stopped to look. It just doesn't interest me. For me, vendor lockin is 180 degrees out of sync with my care-abouts, and the freedom that we enjoy with Gnu/Linux systems is so very complete. We wait for no vendor to bring out the next release. If we encounter a problem or need a feature, we are only limited by the amount of time and brain energy that we choose to put into achieving its resolution. Microsoft, do not trample on my freedom! I'm liking Bob Robertson's suggestion, refuse to ever purchase computer hardware with a Microsoft lock on its boot loader. |
| gus3 Jun 01, 2012 6:42 PM EDT |
If necessary, I'll build a parallel computing cluster of Raspberry Pi's. (With the necessary apostrophe!) There can never be a boot lock on a Raspberry Pi. |
| cmost Jun 01, 2012 7:00 PM EDT |
Just another in a long, long line of reasons why I build my own computers and never touch Microsoft software for them, my file servers, or my laptops. Gave up M$ ten years ago and haven't looked back. Ironically, that means I only look forward. |
| Ridcully Jun 01, 2012 7:17 PM EDT |
@penguinist......I wish I could say the same thing. Normally in my day to day work, I never use anything else but Linux; however I am shortly to work on a large scale contract which simply requires Win7 and that's just how it is. However I am so pleased I am to be using Win7 rather than 8. From all the accounts I have seen, Win8 is a bit of a shambles - unless I have it wrong, I believe Win8 to be an OS display and operational set designed for a pad pushed onto a desktop monitor. No thanks. |
| BernardSwiss Jun 01, 2012 7:36 PM EDT |
Was there really no alternative to this? Of course there was -- but it was going to be an ongoing hassel (fair enough), and discourage newbies (wait a minute; this is Fedora we're talking about -- what newbies?), and "cool" stuff like systemd might not be necessary, but is a lot more fun/satisfying to work on. I have serious doubts that this is a tenable long-term strategy; it's a "quick fix" with serious potential downsides -- some direct, some less so but possibly even worse. For example, manufacturers may take this as a clear sign that Linux community may talk a good game, but when nitty-gritty issues come up, Linux will hold its nose and swallow whatever stinky deal the big boys care to hand out). At this relatively early stage, "capitulate" seems an aptly chosen verb... |
| Ridcully Jun 02, 2012 11:04 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh......Just as an aside, I happened to be in our state capital (Brisbane) yesterday and while there, dropped into a Telstra mobile/smart-phone outlet. I did my usual thing (when there were no customers) and quietly quizzed two of the salestaff with the following results: Windows smartphones account for between 5 and 10 percent of total sales. The kids are rejecting Windows "en masse" and purchase either Android or iOS. That correlates nicely with the situation locally where their outlet "up the road" might sell a Windows smartphone once every six months and normally do not offer them for sale. (Edit update.......I clean forgot; those two salespeople said the biggest reason that the kids were rejecting Windows is extremely simple: Windows will not let them modify the setup to get it running in the way they want; Android will.) Given that situation, I'd guess Win8 is in for a rough ride in the smartphone area, and additionally, given an article I read by a computer journalist who has seriously given Win8 a run for its money on his desktop for the past few months, I'd say Win8 is in trouble on the desktop or laptop as well. The journalist found that the two aspects of Win8 are in considerable conflict to the extent that he found it frustrating and extremely difficult to use. If you put those two things together, it means that Win8 has a high probability of heading towards the same pigeon hole as Vista.....or Millenium Edition for that matter - anyone remember that fiasco ? So if I were to put my money anywhere, I'd be heading towards the bookie advertising the odds on a Win8 disaster. Sure, it's early days, but that's my thoughts. And with all of those straws, the odds of this latest BIOS manipulation being a success are still pretty doubtful to me. Of course, Redmond could issue Win8.1 without the BIOS muckup, but given this attempt to control the use of "everybodys" computer, I don't think Microsoft will give up easily. Actually, I think the biggest threat to this situation created by Microsoft is consumer pressure. There are untold private, business and corporate customers who are running Windows as virtual machines on Linux and they are NOT going to like being mucked around with their ability to run those composite installations. |
| Fettoosh Jun 03, 2012 2:03 PM EDT |
Quoting:Given that situation, I'd guess Win8 is in for a rough ride in the smartphone area,... @Ridcully, I agree, more so on the desktops & laptops, which I believe people prefer to have more control over than their phones. Because of that and the way I understand it, when the final version of Windows 8 is released, it will be a requirement to have a Certificate of Authentication for any applications to run on it. The way I foresee it, people are going to stay with what they have (XP or Win 7) because they will not find a good reason to go with Windows 8. Unless of course, to prevent any virus from running, which I believe is MS's primary justification for this Secure Boot Loader (SBL) after failing at every other method they have tried to secure Windows. Preventing non-CAed application installation is a big problem for MS. That alone will severely annoy users for not being able run their legacy applications and consequently reject Windows 8, or at least for while. I guess MS could have made an equivalent to the SBL on the OS level, but the big questions would be, how could it protect Windows that run in dual boot mode with Linux from virus that infect the BIOS and the Boot Sector? We still don't exactly know what the details are, and that is where I sort of fault Fedora to rush into finding a solution for something that is not finalized yet. Of course, Matt might know something we don't since he has been tracking this from the beginning. |
| JaseP Jun 03, 2012 10:14 PM EDT |
M$ has no real motivation to keep their OS secure. There is an entire cottage industry behind keeping M$ OSes running. That cottage industry helps M$ maintain dominance. Their shoddy OS helps keep (incompetent) people employed and loving M$ for it. This (UEFI secure boot) is a lock-out maneuver, nothing more. They have colluded with Intel and OEMs to lock other OSes out of hardware and form factors (GMA500, Foxxcon, and other actions with OEM manufacturers are the examples). Security is just an excuse for lock-out of software they don't want running on their "partners" machines, as well as control form factors. In the wiki articles for tablet and Ultra-mobile devices were "edited" to try and re-write history to make it seem like they invented the form factors. They are liars, cheats, criminals and are morally bankrupt as a company. |
| BernardSwiss Jun 03, 2012 10:47 PM EDT |
Asustek Qualcomm Snapdragon Arm "Smartbooks" running Android and Xandros Linux at the 2009 Compudex in Taipei. They made a buzz for about a day and a half -- people (and tech journalists) definitely liked them. Then they suddenly and mysteriously disappeared into the aether. And the Asus CEO publicly apologized (with a MS honcho sharing the stage with him) for even showing them. Before then they had been talking about how soon they expected to ship the things. Around the same time they (Asus) were spending big bucks on an international campaign to advertize that "it's better with Windows". There is no question that MS has a great deal of power over what "customers" are allowed to even consider buying. |
| gus3 Jun 04, 2012 6:25 AM EDT |
A couple links about that incident: MS steps on a Snapdragon Microsoft strikes back at Linux netbook push |
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