I would have agree with you last month.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| smallboxadmin May 12, 2012 1:37 AM EDT |
I had two incidents where Linux hardware support failed me. I had a customer who lost a hard drive and instead of recovering the drive I decided to migrate them to a new server we just purchased ahead of schedule. I've been using Zentyal, a great small business server by the way, which is based on Ubuntu. The Lenovo TS130 network card wasn't supported. Since I was in a rush to get them running I threw in an Intel card instead of having to compile the driver, something I don't want to have to do. The second incident involved moving another customer, also to a Zentyal server but different hardware. I bought a second NIC for the system, this time the on board worked, but the D-Link DGE-530T wasn't automatically installed and after not being able to install the driver from D-Link, I ended up replacing it with another Intel NIC to have two working network interfaces. Sure, I'm still using Linux, but it's not all sunshine and roses. Quoting:History also shows that companies can do a good job delivering a well configured Linux system. Two cases in point: my 2009 review of the Sylvania g Meso and Ladislav Bodnar's review of the HP Mini 110 six months later. Referencing three year old hardware reviews doesn't make it better. Some of us Linux users buy new hardware. That being said, there is a reason why, despite the problems, I'm still using Linux over Windows. |
| patrickjmquinn May 12, 2012 8:43 AM EDT |
@Caitlyn, you are going to find a lot of responses like that, Linux hardware support is very good, mainly due to the fact Kernel maintainers have included so much of it baked right in, but Microsoft on the other hand don't have to do that, they have to include the basics in their kernel and then leave the companies who make the hardware to provide support. THAT is how it should be, THAT makes sense, anything else is really to big an ask, especially when they are including drivers that are open source, reverse engineered alternatives of their non-free counterparts. I Know you love Linux and would happily say i do to tux given the chance, but you have to look at the problems of the OS in a very harsh light and promote change in order to make it better. That is what i do. I take the things that have annoyed me in the past and annoys me today and rile people up about them in the hopes that something gets done. You said it youself "Yes, I am aware of the recent problems with some new ATI graphics chipsets. Yes, I am also aware that there are still printers that don't work properly with Linux. Nowadays those are the exceptions rather than the rule." Example: Buddy of mine is big a Windows fan and has a laptop with i7, graphics switching and an SSD. I convinced him to install Ubuntu after much coaxing and he did so. This guy isn't a tech philistine, he is a computer scientist just like myself. A few components like the sleep sensor, hibernation and graphics switching didn't work at all (the trackpad didn't support two finger scrolling but utouch fixed that). So i came over to his apartment and spent a good 40+ minutes sorting out the issues and eventually with the help of the bumblebee open graphics switching project and some nasty scripting to fix the sleep issues, i had it almost all working. A week later he switched back. Apparently the laptop didn't work nearly as well as it did on Windows. Why? it was designed to run Windows. and there in-lies the problem. Ive been trying to highlight this point for a while now and made an attempt to do so in my recent Linux hardware article but funnily enough you have made it for me in this one. |
| jdixon May 12, 2012 9:17 AM EDT |
> A week later he switched back. Apparently the laptop didn't work nearly as well as it did on Windows. Why? it was designed to run Windows. and there in-lies the problem. And for this, he blames Linux rather than the hardware manufacturer. :( |
| dinotrac May 12, 2012 10:36 AM EDT |
>And for this, he blames Linux rather than the hardware manufacturer. :( What is it with people and blame around here? It doesn't matter WHY it doesn't work. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work and people ain't gonna use it. If you have hardware a, working with hardware b it doesn't work. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 12, 2012 10:52 AM EDT |
To some extent, Linux is counterculture, and you need to have a little buy-in philosophically. |
| jdixon May 12, 2012 11:07 AM EDT |
> What is it with people and blame around here? Did I say I blamed, Dino? I said he blames, |
| Khamul May 12, 2012 2:23 PM EDT |
@smallbox: I see part of your problem: you were trying to use D-Link hardware. Cheap networking hardware frequently has compatibility issues with Linux. You cite a model number for the D-link card, but model numbers are meaningless with a manufacturer like this, as they don't tell you which actual chip is used. These companies are notorious for changing chips and designs and keeping the same model number. For a server, as far as I'm concerned, the best thing to do is get all-Intel hardware. With Intel, you never have to worry about your hardware being incompatible with Linux. I hate to sound like a fanboy, but it's true: no other company supports Linux on their hardware the way Intel does, and this goes for all their hardware, including GPUs. If you want graphics that "just work", get a system with Intel graphics, as all their drivers are fully open-sourced and integrated into upstream projects. With other stuff, if the hardware is brand-new, it frequently doesn't work because the FOSS community hasn't had time to reverse-engineer the hardware and make drivers for it; Intel puts out their drivers even before the hardware is released. Your time is too valuable to waste messing with drivers for something as low-cost as a NIC; saving $10 on a NIC isn't worth it. |
| caitlyn May 12, 2012 4:16 PM EDT |
Patrick: Your first paragraph is the crux of the whole problem. You want Linux to be just like Windows and hardware manufacturers to treat it like Windows. Linux IS NOT Windows. IT NEVER WILL BE Windows. Doing things the Windows way is not automagically the right way. All the arguments claiming Linux hardware support is cr@p are based on anecdotal stories that account for a very tiny percentage of hardware out there. Also, more often than not, they are due to users not willing to download something from outside the distro they are using. Sorry, Patrick, no sale. Not at all. Your story with the laptop, to me, was due to lack of experience and not giving Linux a chance more than anything else. You had someone with no Linux experience install Ubuntu themselves. That is a recipe for failure. In my experience, when I shift people to Linux if they actually let me set it up for them I get it right. Then if they stick with it for a few months they wonder how on earth they ever made do with Windows. If they give up quickly then "Linux sucks". I have made anything for you, Patrick. Your whole approach and the whole set of assumptions you start from is entirely bass ackwards. You use Windows as a paradigm to measure things that aren't Windows and expect them to work the Windows way. You use scenarios that assume failure and are a self-fulfilling prophecy. Your methodology, like handing a newbie an Ubuntu CD on what you know is going to be challenging hardware in advance is a sure way to prove your point since you have set your friend up to fail. Great job there, Patrick. Keep your Windows blinders on and keep your perspective and I can promise you many more Linux failures in the future. You've complained that I haven't been polite and respectful enough to you. Funny, I think I haven't been blunt and disrespectful enough. (EDIT: Added bit here ->) Let me explain. I *HATE* crush blogs, which is what you write. You know, folks who say they are Linux users or even profess their love for Linux and then rip it to shreds at every turn. If the author isn't being disingenuous (and I am not accusing you of that) it's almost always because they approach Linux from a Windows perspective. They expect Linux to be a different flavor of Linux. It isn't. |
| Fettoosh May 12, 2012 4:20 PM EDT |
Something like this @Khamul! To replace couple old clunkers I had for a long time (still working), I bought couple tabletops nt535 from newegg (foxconn) a week ago and couldn't be happier so far. Not a single issue with Kubuntu KDE 4.8.3. They are so tiny and very convenient to piggy back a monitor. Relatively speaking, they are inexpensive and most of all, no OS, which mean no MS Tax. Disk drive & memory were purchased separately. nT535:~$ lspci 00:00.0 Host bridge: Intel Corporation N10 Family DMI Bridge (rev 02) 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation N10 Family Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 02) 00:02.1 Display controller: Intel Corporation N10 Family Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 02) 00:1b.0 Audio device: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family High Definition Audio Controller (rev 02) 00:1c.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family PCI Express Port 1 (rev 02) 00:1c.1 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family PCI Express Port 2 (rev 02) 00:1c.2 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family PCI Express Port 3 (rev 02) 00:1c.3 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family PCI Express Port 4 (rev 02) 00:1d.0 USB controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family USB UHCI Controller #1 (rev 02) 00:1d.1 USB controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family USB UHCI Controller #2 (rev 02) 00:1d.2 USB controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family USB UHCI Controller #3 (rev 02) 00:1d.3 USB controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family USB UHCI Controller #4 (rev 02) 00:1d.7 USB controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family USB2 EHCI Controller (rev 02) 00:1e.0 PCI bridge: Intel Corporation 82801 Mobile PCI Bridge (rev e2) 00:1f.0 ISA bridge: Intel Corporation NM10 Family LPC Controller (rev 02) 00:1f.2 IDE interface: Intel Corporation N10/ICH7 Family SATA Controller [IDE mode] (rev 02) 00:1f.3 SMBus: Intel Corporation N10/ICH 7 Family SMBus Controller (rev 02) 02:00.0 Network controller: Intel Corporation Centrino Wireless-N 1000 03:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111/8168B PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet controller (rev 06) 04:00.0 Multimedia controller: Broadcom Corporation BCM70015 Video Decoder [Crystal HD] nT535:~$ |
| caitlyn May 12, 2012 4:36 PM EDT |
@smallboxadmin: You took my reference of three year old hardware completely out of context. That was to demonstrate that when Linux had a relatively level playing field vis a vis Windows that manufacturers were able to deliver excellent Windows products. The whole context was historical and was referring to the issues in the market that prevent Linux from competing. In the rest of your post you take two anecdotal incidents and make the a generalization for all of Linux hardware support, a common and fallacious way to reach a general conclusion. Anyone who has done Linux support for any length of time would have told you up front that Lenovo has never even attempted to support Linux in any way, shape, or form. You didn't say what kind of NIC was in that server so I have no idea if it could have been made to work or not. I haven't run into a NIC that really was unsupported in a few years now but I supposed it's possible you've found one. The D-Link DGE-530T is supported under Linux. I don't know what the problem you ran into was but that card can be made to work and it usually isn't difficult to do. It's six year old technology and there is absolutely no reason it shouldn't work. Without knowing the specifics of the configuration or seeing the errors you ran into I can't suggest a solution. I provide Linux solutions on a wide variety of off the shelf hardware for small and medium sized businesses. It's what I do for a living. Do I occasionally run into issues? Of course. Who doesn't? Are there readily available workarounds or solutions? The answer is yes in around 99% of cases in my experience. Are there more issues than with Windows? Absolutely not! I still have to support Windows now and again as an accommodation to my customers and unless it's preinstalled hardware support is generally more of an issue with Windows than with Linux. |
| caitlyn May 12, 2012 4:43 PM EDT |
@Khamul: Small businesses are very cost conscious. The net result is that they use a lot of cheap hardware. I've had to work with all sorts of D-Link cards, switches, dongles, etc... You know what? They mostly work well with Linux. smallboxadmin had either a configuration or a driver (really kernel module) problem. The worst case scenario would have been building a module from source for the kernel he was running. Dismissing someone's very real problem by blaming their hardware choice is a good way to convince people that Linux really is cr@p. It isn't. Did I do that with the Lenovo server? To a point. I do assume people who do server support approach hardware selection issues with a higher degree of knowledge than typical users. I also think, based on smallboxadmin's issue with his D-Link card, that we may not really be dealing with unsupported hardware but rather something that isn't supported out of the box by Zenytal. |
| Khamul May 12, 2012 6:26 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh: yep, that looks like a system that will work quite well with Linux out-of-the-box. The only thing I'd be concerned about is that multimedia controller; Broadcom has a terrible history of Linux support. Unfortunately, using Linux is a bit like using a Mac: you have to find hardware that works with it. For most hardware that's ~2-4 years old, this isn't a problem, but bleeding-edge stuff is different. Sticking to brands that support Linux well will greatly avoid aggravation. @caitlyn: Exactly how well will that D-Link card, or any random card for that matter, work with a Mac? It probably won't. Linux is much better than this. Why should anyone expect better hardware support with Linux than with Apple, which is now probably the most valuable publicly-traded company in the world? You don't go grab some random hardware and expect it to work out-of-the-box on a Mac, so why would you expect this with an OS that has single-digit marketshare? It's insane. Furthermore, most of that hardware doesn't even work out-of-the-box on Windows, the OS that they all claim to work with. Plug it in, and it may very well not work. Instead, you have to mess around with some stupid driver disc, or download drivers for the internet (which is pretty lame for a network card!). Then, what if the drivers don't work, because the mfgr only bothered to make 32-bit drivers and you're running Win7 64-bit? Seems like everyone's trying to hold Linux to a much higher standard than everyone else, and then say it's "failing" when it doesn't meet the same standards that other, more mainstream OSes don't even meet themselves. I'd like to know how many of these people complaining about Linux "failing" with some hardware have tried installing a fresh boxed copy of Windows on some random selection of bleeding-edge hardware. Also, one problem with Zenytal or any other distro is that different distros have different kernels of different ages. If your kernel is a year old (and being used in a distro that's 9 months old), it won't have the latest drivers included that a more bleeding-edge distro has, so this does frequently lead to cases where one distro works fine on hardware X and another distro doesn't. This generally isn't a big problem with hardware that's a few years old, but for very new hardware it is. Many distros (esp. the enterprise ones like CentOS) don't use the very latest kernel for stability reasons. Note that I don't know what the specific problem with this network card is, I'm just speaking in generalities about HW support in Linux. But you say this card is 6 years old; is it really? Is the card 6 years old, or only that model? As I said before, companies like that are famous for switching to different chips and leaving the model numbers the same, so if they just switched to some new revision of a chip that isn't supported in a distro, it may not work. That model number card 6 years ago may have had a Realtek XXXX chip, and the one they're selling now may have a Broadcom YYYY chip. |
| patrickjmquinn May 12, 2012 8:00 PM EDT |
@Caitlyn You are such a dinosaur! Ignoring the fact that change needs to be made, treating Linux like its your child refusing to see its flaws. Lets get one thing straight Caitlyn. I straight HATE Windows with every inch of my being and feel enraged by the fact that a totally inferior technology has made it to market dominance. If you had made your stupid little quip about me having 'Windows blinkers' on to anyone who ever knew me they would laugh at you, most lightly brand you a raving lunatic. BUT and its a big one, Windows does have hardware down, its supported, regardless of how or why it just is. This needs to bed the case for Linux, if its not then the problem will continue to exist. Also, lack of experience?? So what your saying is that everyone should begin knowing everything there is to know about Linux installs to have a working desktop? Absolute tosh. Windows users can barley tell the time in some cases but plenty of them manage to upgrade from XP to Vista or Vista to 7 with little problem. This was one machine in time and space, a cross section of laptop hardware in general. I have done many many Linux installs on my hardware and on others over the years and have never been totally happy with the result, sure its been usable but theres always but something not quite right. NOW on to your remark about my Linux crushing. Read my Ubuntu article, i took a lot of flak for it being overly positive, i give praise to Linux vendors who i feel go in the right direction where its due. I also hit hard at the problems i see providing possible solutions, food for thought. My blog isn't solely Linux. Its a technology blog. Sure i love Linux and want to see it succeed but I'm both a Linux fan and a technologist i write about everything from Operating systems to gadgets. No free ride for any of them. Looking forward to what ever spite filled narrow-minded ness you have to reply with. You may be from new-york but that is no excuse for being completely un-pragmatic. |
| tracyanne May 12, 2012 8:08 PM EDT |
Since 2000 have done many many Linux installs on my hardware and on others over the years and have always been very happy with the result. |
| patrickjmquinn May 12, 2012 8:16 PM EDT |
Oh I've been happy, very happy with the result, but never fully satisfied. All of my machines bar my Apple products run Linux. And they all run significantly better than they did with Windows but in some of the cases it took a lot of effort to get bits and pieces working. |
| gus3 May 12, 2012 8:24 PM EDT |
Good-bye, patrickmjquinn. Your profanity and calculated personal insults (to put it mildly) guarantee that I'll never read anything with your name on it again. Your attitude could do no better to demonstrate caitlyn's point. I've never said this before, and I hope I'll never say it again: If Scott or computerbob bans you from LXer, I'll be happy. |
| patrickjmquinn May 12, 2012 8:33 PM EDT |
And there was me dialing it back. Hmm looks like you are easily offended sir. But thats ok by me, her article was to highlight how my point of view was wrong essentially and when i tried to civilly explain my point she poo-pooed it point blank hence me giving her an ear full. I consider nothing which i wrote profanity (although the tone is something i would never write with in my articles admittedly but i felt it was time to dust off the sword for this one, fire with fire and all that). If banning me seems like suitable punishment for my honest (albeit toned-down) opinion then so be. |
| caitlyn May 12, 2012 8:35 PM EDT |
Patrick: So, when you don't have an argument you turn to ad hominem attacks. Typical. Truly sad. Tell me, your experience and your friend's experience trump 14 years of working professionally in the business world with non technical people running Linux, right? tracyanne's experience is nonsense too because it doesn't match yours, right? Windows upgrades often don't go smoothly. Older hardware is often unsupported and installing Windows from scratch is often much harder than Linux on the same hardware. You say you hate Windows and yet hold it up as the best example of doing hardware. Who is the dinosaur here? You post nonsense and attack me as a bible thumper when I don't convert to the cult of Patrick and worship at your feet. I work out in the real world with real businesses every day. My writing is based on real world experiences. Your is based on your world view and a problem one friend here or there had. Quoting:Also, lack of experience?? So what your saying is that everyone should begin knowing everything there is to know about Linux installs to have a working desktop?Hey, if you can't attack what I said make something up and claim I said it. Clue: most people can't install ANY operating system, period. So, yeah, throwing a CD to a newbie, whether it's a Windows CD or a Linux CD, is a recipe for failure. That doesn't mean you have to know "everything about Linux" to have success. I certainly don't know everything about Linux and never will. The older I get the more I realize just how much I don't know. I also suspect tracyanne would say she doesn't know "everything about Linux" and also claims lots of success. Are we liars or could it be that your recipe for failure is just that? So yeah, you hate Windows, hold it up as how Linux should do things, and yes, you write a nasty little crush blog and defend it to the hilt. We have another thread going all about people like you: http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/33193/ Narrow minded? Me? That is laughable. Before calling someone a raving lunatic perhaps you'd best walk a week in my shoes and see what my work day is like. That, or perhaps look in the mirror is all that is needed for you to find your lunatic. |
| caitlyn May 12, 2012 8:37 PM EDT |
Khamul: Apple works the way it does because they limit themselves to very narrow, very expensive hardware choices. Apple, for all their success, also has a single digit market share on the desktop with MacOS X. Their make their money selling iPods and iPhones and tablets. In the cellphone and tablet markets Android, a Linux distribution, is competing very successfully and Windows is not. I wouldn't hold up MacOS X as a model of how to succeed on the desktop. The fact is that Windows, in one way or another, manages to work on cheap commodity hardware and that is where Linux has to compete on the desktop, as difficult as that proposition may be give the variety of hardware out there. Linux does a remarkably good job of doing it and has fantastic hardware support compared to anything else. I honestly don't know if there are different revisions to the D-Link Gigaexpress card smallboxadmin used. I do know the model was introduced in 2005, that I've run into it on a number of occasions, and I've always been able to get it to work. Most of the rest of what you wrote I, of course, agree with. |
| patrickjmquinn May 12, 2012 8:47 PM EDT |
I am a realist Caitlyn. Why on earth would i ignore something that i deem to be done right because i hate the platform? I don't write crush posts, my posts are in praise of Linux most of the time and hardware support (an area which i feel is messy at best in Linux) is not in that praise band. i defend when i feel i am being attacked and you calling me a lunatic completely groundlessly makes no sense, i was saying that if you knew what you where talking about and knew me in anyway you would know i try to bestow the graces of Linux wherever possible to whomever i can and that i use every opportunity to tell them why Linux is superior to Windows and suggest they install it. For example got talking to a complete randomer on the train who i saw using a netbook with Windows xp on it and by the end of the journey had written up a guide on how to install Linux and put a live install image on a USB along with my email and phone number if she needed help (she was good looking, I'm human, sue me). This was yesterday. So what if i don't GUSH about Linux and go after what i feel needs changed? |
| Fettoosh May 12, 2012 8:50 PM EDT |
@khamul, Broadcom joined the Linux Foundation and I expect things are going to be better. Besides, the sound is working fine. Edited: So does Audacity and Skype in terms of recording and communicating via video & audio. I am impressed with this little box. I have yet to encounter any tiny little issue. :-) Actually, I should say I am impressed by Linux. (That is for you @patrickjmquinn :-) ) |
| caitlyn May 12, 2012 8:58 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh: Yep. Since Broadcom permitted redistribution of their firmware my netbook wireless works out of the box with most distros. It's gotten to the point where I can throw almost any current distro at my netbook and I expect everything to "just work". @Patrick: I don't "GUSH" about what doesn't work. I do, however, dispel myths about how terrible Linux is at things it does well. I have certainly written negative distro reviews and been attacked for them. At one point I even got a death threat from a particularly nasty corner of the Linux community because I said their pet little distro wouldn't boot on my hardware a few years back. When things aren't done right people around here will be the first to tell you that I've written critical articles. Please don't accuse me of being someone who mindlessly gushes about Linux and never sees any negatives. You clearly haven't read much of my writing to even vaguely think that. The fact remains that Linux supports more hardware out of the box than any other OS, bar none. |
| caitlyn May 12, 2012 9:00 PM EDT |
@Khamul: I forgot to respond to your comment about CentOS. It's correct but not accurate. Let me explain. CentOS uses the upstream Red Hat kernel. Red Hat backports new hardware support into their older kernel with each dot release. The hardware support in CentOS is usually very close to the hardware support in Fedora despite the older kernel. |
| patrickjmquinn May 12, 2012 9:22 PM EDT |
@caitlyn i never claimed you gushed, i just said i don't. My personal focus is on desktop Linux, anything for end users should just work. One can argue that users should know about how the underlying OS works but thats just posturing at the end of the day. Most users don't care and just want to get things done, It should just work no questions asked and that is why i suggested cutting out the middle man and having the bigger distro vendors working with the hardware OEMs to achieve this result. No fiddling or hacking required no worrying about will or wont my hardware work with X or Y distro. I have not read much of your stuff, its your interaction with me which has built my opinion of you. Ive done my homework on you and know your track record, you do have many years on me experience wise and i agree that that lack of experience on my part can make me a tad presumptuous at times, however, the main reason we clash isn't because of our differing levels of experience, its because your ethos is definitely that of a Linux nature and while i am a Linux fan from a technology standpoint, mine is that of an Apple nature, usability and design above all else. I can promise ill read back through your works to get a bigger picture on your point of view before making assumptions about them in future and i will write more articles of a constructive nature and not just 'crush' (which is the wrong use of that term by the way, crush is to have a crush on something or someone now days, but ill let you off, you are old and not down with the young people slang after all :P ) on Linux. |
| caitlyn May 12, 2012 9:41 PM EDT |
You'll find I've written very little on Apple because I little real experience. What little I have has been generally positive. However, Apple "just works" because they support only their own hardware. It is totally unfair to compare MacOS X to Linux for just that reason. Similarly Windows "just works" because it's preinstalled. It doesn't "just work" any better than Linux, in fact it's far worse, when it's not preinstalled. As I said in the article you are holding Linux to a higher, and indeed an impossible standard. The reason I mentioned the 2009 netbooks in the article was to make the point that when Linux is preinstalled it "just works" as well as any other OS and in some respects (security, performance) is actually better. This is precisely what I meant by "level playing field" in the article. Let me put it another way: no OS "just works" when you go to install it on some random collection or piece of hardware. Linux "just works" in that scenario more frequently than anything else, including Windows. Once again, you have to compare apples to apples here. |
| Fettoosh May 12, 2012 9:50 PM EDT |
Quoting:Most users don't care and just want to get things done, It should just work no questions asked ... @patrickjmquinn, I certainly agree with this statement and I am sure @Caitlyn does too. So do many others. But one thing you need to appreciate is how a distro is build and by who. One just can't blame everything on Linux. There is no doubt that the process of making a good distro is quite involved, takes good effort, and requires good amount of resources. But you can't stop anyone from making their own any way they can. I said the same thing you are saying on Lxer few weeks before and I do understand the Distros have to improve their quality to make sure everything "Just Works". That is what I called it then. But realistically speaking, it is easier said than done. I believe Caitlyn doesn't disagree with that. On the contrary, I believe she is advocating for it while at the same time trying to rebut/refute misinformation published by lackeys. |
| BernardSwiss May 12, 2012 9:57 PM EDT |
I don't have the expertise of Caitlyn or Tracyanne or most of the commenters on this site. But I have enough experience helping my Windows-using friends to be rather sceptical of the notion that hardware generally "just works" with Windows, except when the hardware came with Windows pre-installed. As for those lovely CDs that come with new hardware (or many ISP services), seductively promising brain-dead easy auto-magical installation and set-up; well heck -- those are often the worst offenders. One of the more common reasons I get asked to help with friends Windows computers is because of those obscenities. And the drivers that Windows offers instead are often little better. |
| caitlyn May 12, 2012 10:02 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh: Of course I am all for improving hardware support and improving the quality of distros. There is always room for improvement. However, I do think "just works" on any old hardware is a goal that can never be reached. We just get as close as we can and, as Bernard Swiss points out, I think we are already closer than Windows. |
| patrickjmquinn May 12, 2012 10:05 PM EDT |
My gripe never was with Linux hardware support as a whole (though some of the drivers are of poor quality and pale in comparison to their 'official' counterparts but that cant be helped), in reality it was with how that support is implemented. It needs to 'just work on the desktop.' Linux is an operating system Like any other and hence shouldn't get any special treatment. If that means shipping Linux pre-installed then so be it, make it happen, rally the troops and get it done but i cant stress enough that change needs to occur. I'm not going to go back over any of my previous points but like i said just working regardless of how, regardless of the operating system, this needs to be the reality. Anything less is just unacceptable for the end/desktop user. That might be un-realisitic but its how it has to be in my opinion. I suggest you go off and use Mac OS X and as many alternative operating systems as is possible (i get the impression you don't have much experience outside of Linux and Windows and possibly BSD/Solaris but i could be wrong) the more experience you have with these alternatives the more you can see where others seriously lack. On a side note i linked my friend this thread and pointed out the 'Windows blinker' comment. Half an hour later he is still laughing. |
| patrickjmquinn May 12, 2012 10:13 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh I have been involved in distribution building and man do i appreciate how hard it is to make what i ask and expect work, i suspect that this article is actually in response to one i wrote last month on hardware support where i suggested that the big vendors needed to work with the OEMs e.g dell etc to ship a working product and thus remove that hackery venire that Linux has gained over the years. Communities could then release hardware specific builds of an OS from source for particular legacy products more akin to how the current smartphone communities operate. One shoe fits all is an impossibility. If its to hard to do it the way they are currently doing it then they need to change how they do it if you get me. |
| Fettoosh May 12, 2012 10:36 PM EDT |
@patrickjmquinn,Quoting:i suggested that the big vendors needed to work with the OEMs e.g dell etc to ship a working product and thus remove that hackery venire that Linux has gained over the years. You are preaching to the choir. This is a subject that has been discussed in many places, and quite a bit on Lxer, for too long. As a matter of fact, @Caitlyn mentioned that in a thread applauding Dell for releasing, or going to, a new laptop for developers, which will have Ubuntu pre-installed. I debated with her Dell's sincerity since they had done that before and always went back on their promises. So, it is not something new. We all realize the importance of that. The problem is whether the OEMs want to do that or not. It seems they are not up to it since, they claim, there is no profitable market for Linux desktops. That is debatable, but we can't force OEMs to do it while MS sabotage every attempt using its monopoly power and almost limitless financial resources. |
| Khamul May 12, 2012 10:49 PM EDT |
caitlyn wrote:However, I do think "just works" on any old hardware is a goal that can never be reached. We just get as close as we can and, as Bernard Swiss points out, I think we are already closer than Windows. This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Windows HW support really isn't all that great, between old drivers not working with newer Windows versions and HW mfgrs not bothering to release drivers for new Windows versions for their older HW, and now the 32/64-bit divide (which Linux has no trouble at all with since all the drivers (exc. Nvidia) are open-source and built into the kernel. And MacOS, as pointed out, only works on Apple hardware. So AFAIC Linux has by far the best HW support of them all, but it's not perfect, and probably never will be perfect. Expecting it to be better than the other two, which aren't great, is expecting too much. And don't forget how Windows got such a terrible reputation for reliability because of low-quality closed-source drivers from mfgrs, finally forcing MS to go to great lengths to set up certification labs, WHQL, etc. to alleviate the problem. |
| patrickjmquinn May 12, 2012 10:51 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh I saw that article but didn't get to see the commentary as i was busy with my head in the books. That laptop is just what is needed, sleek and sexy and running Linux (I know Ubuntu isn't considered Linux around these parts but i consider that hubris). I know that i am preaching to the choir. But am i the only one who feels frustrated by the fact that more effort isn't being put into making it happen? Hell, id almost start a kick-starter initiative to create a Linux based laptop which mass market appeal myself. |
| caitlyn May 12, 2012 10:51 PM EDT |
Patrick, I only have about 12 years of Solaris experience. I've supported the BSDs on and off. Once upon a time I did loads of Novell Netware. SGI Irix and OS/2 support. I started my UNIX experience with HP-UX in 1995 and have supported it on and off since then. Please don't assume I don't have "alternate" OS experience.
Quoting:It needs to 'just work on the desktop.'Why do I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall? Windows DOES NOT just work on the desktop. It "just works" on the desktop less frequently than Linux unless it's preinstalled. Quoting:Linux is an operating system Like any other and hence shouldn't get any special treatment.Exactly! Yet you insist on holding it to a higher, indeed a totally impossible standard. Quoting:If that means shipping Linux pre-installed then so be it, make it happen, rally the troops and get it doneOh for crying out loud! You repeat, repeat, repeat and just don't understand. It HAS BEEN TRIED. It HAS BEEN DONE. The market, as it exists today, makes this impossible. I explained this in detail in my previous article and touched on it again in this one. Unless you can invent a way to make Linux as profitable for retailers as Windows AND prevent Microsoft from using their monopoly position to prevent OEMs from offering Linux as an alternative then it CANNOT SUCCEED. Did you read or hear the IBM testimony when the DOJ went after Microsoft? Microsoft gave IBM an ultimatum in 1995: kill OS/2 (the leading desktop competitor at the time) or IBM would lose all access to Windows. At the 11th hour it looked like IBM was going to go all in for OS/2. Then, at the urging of the PC company (the division that made Thinkpads and desktops) IBM cut a deal: they would stop all OS/2 marketing and ISV support. OS/2 died a slow death. OK, Serenity Systems bought it and it is still developed at eCS. How much market share or mindshare does it have? Then let's look at 2009. HP had something called the Mi desktop. essentially something similar to GNOME 3 or Unity, but a much better implementation. It magically disappeared the very day Windows 7 was released. Nobody knows for sure but a lot of writers (i.e.: Steven J. Vaughn-Nichols, myself) guessed that something akin to what IBM faced in 1995 had happened again. That same year ASUS unveiled an ARM-based EEE PC running Android at Computex. It got very positive press. The next day the ASUS CEO was apologizing for showing that system, saying it would not be released. A Microsoft VP was standing on the stage next to him. Quoting:I'm not going to go back over any of my previous points but like i said just working regardless of how, regardless of the operating system, this needs to be the reality.IT CAN'T BE DONE unless legislative/legal action is taken against Microsoft. Quoting:Anything less is just unacceptable for the end/desktop user. That might be un-realisitic but its how it has to be in my opinion.I'd like a million dollars and to have world peace. Let's rally the troops and make it happen. That might be unrealistic but its how it has to be in my opinion. Is it any wonder I call your writing drivel? Huge clue: experienced Linux user installs Linux for home user. It just works after that. Home user is happy. This is where we are today and it is as close to your nirvana as we are ever going to get. Quoting:i suspect that this article is actually in response to one i wrote last month on hardware support where i suggested that the big vendors needed to work with the OEMs e.g dell etc to ship a working product and thus remove that hackery venire that Linux has gained over the years.Yes, your ridiculous article was one of several which prompted mine. The word is "veneer". Proper capitalization helps too. Like I said, you want the sun, the moon and the stars delivered by breakfast. Linux already has the best hardware support out there but it's not good enough for you. You want the OEMs to tow the line and deliver the products you want regardless of whether or not it's profitable for them to do so. It's not profitable because Microsoft can punish them severely if they try. If you find a way to fix that please let us know. I'll be the first in line to write in support of your brilliant idea. |
| BernardSwiss May 12, 2012 10:55 PM EDT |
@patrickjmquinn tell you what, Patrick -- you figure out a realistic, practical way to keep Microsoft from abusing its power to effectively bar pre-installed Linux from the mainstream market (you've been provided with examples), how to keep Win-tel from directing OEMs away from affordable Linux solutions that consumers like, but Windows won't run well on and/or don't feed the demand for higher-end (more expensive) hardware, and how to keep certain Big Box consumer outlets (eg. Best Buy) from sabotaging Linux-related sales, you let us know -- I promise we'll be impressed. You see, the problem isn't Linux. (Really!) I'm I used-books seller, not an IT guy. I managed to figure out Debian in 2000 (amazing what you can do with a good manual). It had rough spots (it was Debian, after all) but I liked it, even if I had to mount/umount USB manually. By 2002 I heard about pre-teen, non-techie girls installing newbie-friendly versions of Linux, successfully, on their own , and well-satisfied with the change. Then within a year or so I met a financial advisor type, whose small partnership (2 dozen) had successfully converted all their servers and at least half their desktops to Linux -- again, on their own (they didn't even have an IT staffer). Before that there was a Poli-Sci grad student who preferred Mandriva, and an English grad student who had (IIRC) TurboLinux on his laptop. It's only gotten easier since. Last winter in a local coffee-shop, I met a mill worker who was running Ubuntu on his netbook -- and declared that he was much happier with Slackware, so he was going back to that next rainy weekend. Yes, there are hardware issues. Well, that's true with Windows as well. Lots of cool hardware won't work with Macs either. That's life. I don't see applying a double-standard as justified or constructive. |
| patrickjmquinn May 12, 2012 11:00 PM EDT |
Ladies and gentlemen the true face of the beast. My point was that it does work when shipped on the machine, that was my point, that is how it should be possible or not ask any sane, everyday person. Im actively engaging with you and your points and you are being spiteful and nasty about mine. Drivel... charming. |
| tracyanne May 12, 2012 11:05 PM EDT |
Quoting:(I know Ubuntu isn't considered Linux around these parts but i consider that hubris I don't have a problem with Ubuntu. The factory I buy my computers from offers them preinstalled with Windows and Ubuntu and no OS. I buy wth Ubuntu installed, that way I know they will work properly with any other Linux, and replace Ubuntu with somthing decent. |
| smallboxadmin May 13, 2012 12:36 AM EDT |
@caitlyn
Quoting:In the rest of your post you take two anecdotal incidents and make the a generalization for all of Linux hardware support, a common and fallacious way to reach a general conclusion.Where did I make a general conclusion? There is no general conclusion, I gave two examples of where I had problems recently, nothing else. My point, was and is that it's not a bed of roses out there. Quoting:Anyone who has done Linux support for any length of time would have told you up front that Lenovo has never even attempted to support Linux in any way, shape, or form.Sure, maybe I shouldn't have bought a Lenovo server, but Lenovo does support Red Hat on their hardware according to their web site. So I don't know where your statement is coming from. Quoting:Are there readily available workarounds or solutions? The answer is yes in around 99% of cases in my experience.OK, so I have problems and it's my fault for buying the wrong hardware or not being able (really willing to spend the time) to get a driver working. You on the other hand say that you find workarounds. Well, didn't I do the same thing by purchasing Intel NIC's? |
| smallboxadmin May 13, 2012 12:45 AM EDT |
@Khamul
Quoting:I see part of your problem: you were trying to use D-Link hardware. Cheap networking hardware frequently has compatibility issues with Linux. You cite a model number for the D-link card, but model numbers are meaningless with a manufacturer like this, as they don't tell you which actual chip is used. These companies are notorious for changing chips and designs and keeping the same model number.Yes, I found this out while trying to get the card working. I don't remember which chip it was on the NIC I had, I actually have it here somewhere, but I decided on getting the Intel NIC. Quoting:For a server, as far as I'm concerned, the best thing to do is get all-Intel hardware. With Intel, you never have to worry about your hardware being incompatible with Linux. I hate to sound like a fanboy, but it's true: no other company supports Linux on their hardware the way Intel does, and this goes for all their hardware, including GPUs.I agree 100% with you on this, but the Lenovo came from a recommendation and the price was right. Problem was that the server that the recommendation came from was running Windows Server. I run Linux on Dell, HP, Sun, Intel and have had excellent luck with hardware support. This was really strange to me happening on two customers in a row with different hardware. The things I thought would have been a problem was the RAID support, but it turned out the NIC's were my hiccup. |
| BernardSwiss May 13, 2012 1:24 AM EDT |
I kind of hate to do this, but in the interest of fairness to Mr Quinn: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/166851/index.html On the other hand, this might be considered support for the criticisms against Ubuntu, as well. Look! Ammunition for both sides -- in one article! |
| caitlyn May 13, 2012 1:37 AM EDT |
@smallboxadmin: I stand corrected on Lenovo server support. Here's the thing: if it works with Red Hat then it works with any Linux distro. When you said you weren't willing to spend the time to figure it out we hit the crux of the matter. Not making the necessary effort to get something to work is not the same thing as the hardware being poorly supported. Yes, changing NICs is a workaround, but you started by saying you no longer agreed with me about hardware support because of your two experiences. You've now made clear that you don't know if the hardware was truly unsupported or not. By disagreeing with the premise of my article you were making a general statement from the two specific cases. No, it's not "all a bed of roses". I agree. Neither is hardware support with Windows. My whole point is not that Linux is perfect. There is no perfect OS. My point is that it is no way inferior to Windows in the area of hardware support. Patrick: If I wanted to be "spiteful and nasty" I guarantee you my language would have been stronger. |
| Fettoosh May 13, 2012 9:33 AM EDT |
OK, I woke this morning and see some agreement. It is going to be a good day. So let's make it so I am going to bake my wife a Baba au Rhum this Mothers' day morning. :-) |
| DrGeoffrey May 13, 2012 9:51 AM EDT |
What a nice, thoughtful present! |
| Steven_Rosenber May 13, 2012 11:52 AM EDT |
There is some bad hardware out there. I have an Alps touchpad on a Lenovo G555 that is awful in Windows and Linux. The Linux driver is slightly better, but it's just cheap, cr@ppy hardware. |
| caitlyn May 14, 2012 1:28 AM EDT |
Quoting:There is some bad hardware out there. I have an Alps touchpad on a Lenovo G555 that is awful in Windows and Linux. The Linux driver is slightly better, but it's just cheap, cr@ppy hardware.@Steven: I agree completely. To blame either Linux or Windows for what are failings by manufacturers is ridiculous, yet some people do. Patrick, here is a thought for you: instead of blaming Linux or the Linux community for the lack of OEM support, how about directing your readers to companies that offer Linux preinstalled and offer good support. Why not point out what ZaReason or System76 or others offer? |
| tracyanne May 14, 2012 3:32 AM EDT |
Quoting:To blame either Linux or Windows for what are failings by manufacturers is ridiculous, yet some people do. Most commonly if it's cr@ppy hardware or drivers on Windows, it's the manufacturers fault, if it's if it's cr@ppy hardware or drivers on Linux it's because Linux is cr@p. |
| GERGE May 14, 2012 4:23 AM EDT |
I do have a HP LaserJet 1010. It is showing its age but it is still a working, good laser printer. I am not inclined to change it as there is no big leaps in laser printing technology. Anyway, it does not work in Windows 7, not out of box. I have managed to install some XP drivers by finding weird solutions around many problems and now it manages to print 5 pages in one minute in my sister's Windows 7 notebook. Totally awesome, no? In my Arch it works perfectly out of box, and this is Arch. So much for bad hardware support in Linux. HP 1010 is a very populer printer and does not work right in post XP Windows. |
| patrickjmquinn May 14, 2012 9:16 AM EDT |
I had planned on writing an article on Dell's 'Project Sputnik' once my exams are out of the way. The design and build quality of the device is right on the money in terms of giving users a stand-out product running Linux. I might even mention Ubuntu's planned 5 percent market share and System76's new 12.04 bred machines but we will see how Ubuntu fan-boy-esque it ends up. Then again, seeing as my writing is 'drivel', I'm surprised you would want me to point out anything. |
| Fettoosh May 14, 2012 10:14 AM EDT |
Quoting:However, I do think "just works" on any old hardware is a goal that can never be reached. @Caitlyn, I would have agreed if you said "All" old hardware. I have yet to have a problem with 4 very old HP/Compaq desktops. They are 17, 15 Compaq Deskpros and 2 13 years old Compaq Evos. I have Kubunt 12.04 with KDE 4.8.3 running on all of them without any issues but very slow due to limited memory capacity & 1.0 GHz & 1.5GHz CPUs. From my anecdotal experience, if the hardware is designed to standards, Linux won't have problems and will run fine without a fuss on many old hardware. I also bought a Brother 2270WD laser printer to replace an HP LaserJet 4ML with network interface, Which I bought 17 years ago and just recently died. I don't recall how much it was (around $800). The 2270WD was only $80 from Newegg and it comes with Ethernet & wireless interfaces. I never had any issues with HP and I haven't had any with Brother so far. The 2270WD came with support CDs for Windows & Apple, but not for Linux. They do have drivers for Linux on their web site though. Personally, that is not a big issue for me and many others who have experience, but why the double standard by vendors? What is so difficult or costly to prevent them from having full support for Linux just like they have for Apple? Aren't they both *nix based? It really is annoying and frustrating. One thing everyone admits to about MS is that, it can create perceptions better than anyone else. Many of the bad perceptions about Linux were created by MS, its lackeys & paid shills. It also have been creating false perceptions about its user friendliness being so good. One example is related to hardware support. Anyone seen those Windows useless troubleshooting guides/scripts that appear to be helpful to solve problems and mostly failing to end up suggesting to call tech support? Very clever marketing ploys I would say. |
| Bob_Robertson May 14, 2012 10:27 AM EDT |
Speaking of lousy drivers and Windows, Where I work is almost exclusively Windows, with roving users on domain controllers, etc. It mostly works, but the Nvidia graphics drivers cause problems with deleting files through the domain controllers on roving accounts. Really. Files just never go away. Because of graphics drivers. Sheesh. |
| Khamul May 14, 2012 11:30 AM EDT |
Given that OSX uses the same CUPS printing subsystem that Linux uses, it should be possible to use any printer that's supported on OSX in Linux as well, though extracting the relevant files may be a small challenge on Linux. |
| Fettoosh May 14, 2012 12:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:it should be possible to use any printer that's supported on OSX in Linux as well, @Khamul, In the case of Brother 2270DW printer, the *.deb & *.rpm files are readily available to down load from a well organized web site and fully documented installation instructions. My surprise is, why didn't Brother make the small effort to include them on the CD with a very short procedure on how to install them? In the case of the *.deb files, the instructions are basically to double click on the *.deb files. Or, include the CLI commands, which are already in the instruction on the web site. Does MS have anything to do with that? I really don't know. |
| skelband May 14, 2012 1:47 PM EDT |
My experience: The latest Windows tends to work out of the box on most recent hardware. The latest Linux tends to work out of the box on most recent hardware. Wow, that was simple. |
| skelband May 14, 2012 2:10 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh: I've found Brother's Linux support to be better than most. Perhaps the Linux drivers were developed some time after the Windows drivers and after thy went into production. |
| caitlyn May 14, 2012 2:19 PM EDT |
@Patrick: I never said your writing as a whole was drivel. Just your two recent articles on how awful Linux is. If you write something decent you'll find I am every bit as quick with praise as I am with criticism. |
| patrickjmquinn May 14, 2012 3:13 PM EDT |
@Caitlyn: Hmmm well you certainly didn't specify, don't mince words, peoples pride is at stake when it comes to their early work, if a more seasoned writer had gone all out on the attack when you where starting about writing about the things you loved would you have taken it well or would it be a little soul crushing, I try and be as diplomatic as i can when dealing with individuals and their work regardless of what i think of it because i am aware of the affects of not vetting my opinion may have on them, you never know whats going on in peoples lives after all. |
| BernardSwiss May 14, 2012 3:54 PM EDT |
Quoting: ... if the hardware is designed to standards, Linux won't have problems and will run fine without a fuss... I knew I'd left something out... :-P This is precisely why it's such a "big deal", and gets so irritatingly under Linux users' skins. |
| Khamul May 14, 2012 4:24 PM EDT |
Standards don't apply to a lot of things. For things like hard drives (with standardized SATA and SAS interface), obviously they do, but many other things simply don't. Many low-speed peripherals for instance connect with a serial interface like I2C, and are used by reading and writing to various register locations. The I2C bus itself is standardized and there's drivers for it in the kernel, but if you have a driver connected to that bus, you need a driver that talks to it, and the only way to do that is to have access to the documentation that specifies the register locations and functions. For a touchscreen, for instance, there are no standards specifying these registers; they're different for all devices, so either you get the mfgr's documentation, or you reverse-engineer it somehow. Even with standardized devices, there can be mfgr-specific extensions or additional functionality that's outside the standard, as standards are usually a "lowest common denominator" that's common to all such devices. The problem isn't standards so much, it's documentation. Good mfgrs make docs available, bad ones keep them secret. |
| BernardSwiss May 14, 2012 4:38 PM EDT |
Fettoosh wrote: One thing everyone admits to about MS is that, it can create perceptions better than anyone else. Many of the bad perceptions about Linux were created by MS, its lackeys & paid shills. It also have been creating false perceptions about its user friendliness being so good. In his classic (and very entertainingly readable) book, In the Beginning Was the Command-line, Neal Stephenson (yes, that Neal Stephenson) argued that Microsoft is essentially in the same business as Disney (but Disney does it much better). Neal Stephenson wrote: As I've explained, selling OSes for money is a basically untenable position, and the only way Apple and Microsoft can get away with it is by pursuing technological advancements as aggressively as they can, and by getting people to believe in, and to pay for, a particular image: in the case of Apple, that of the creative free thinker, and in the case of Microsoft, that of the respectable techno-bourgeois. Just like Disney, they're making money from selling an interface, a magic mirror. It has to be polished and seamless or else the whole illusion is ruined and the business plan vanishes like a mirage. I have got to read that book again. It's become somewhat dated (BeOS was still a contender when he wrote it), but still a good read. I'm not sure where my Opaque Cellulose Format copy is, but fortunately it is also available free in digital form: http://www.cryptonomicon.com/beginning.html (download) http://artlung.com/smorgasborg/C_R_Y_P_T_O_N_O_M_I_C_O_N.sht... (html) . |
| caitlyn May 14, 2012 11:18 PM EDT |
@Patrick: When you chose to post your work on a major portal site for Linux you opened yourself up to critique. I'll say this again: I am a New Yorker. We are blunt and direct and say what we mean and mean what we say. That's a trait I value in others as well. Please don't expect that I'm going to mince words for you or anyone else. |
| jdixon May 15, 2012 8:42 AM EDT |
> I'll say this again: I am a New Yorker. We are blunt and direct and say what we mean and mean what we say. The word is rude, Caitlyn. It's shorter, easier to understand, and more accurate. But yes, it is a common trait of New Yorkers, and we're all influenced by our environment. So we try not to hold it against you. :) And since it's a trait you value, you'll obviously accept this in the manner it's intended. The above is, obviously, an exaggeration. However, it illustrates the point of the problems with communicating on Internet forums quite well. Regional variations in tone and language are only part of the problem. |
| gus3 May 15, 2012 8:48 AM EDT |
@jdixon: When there's an elephant in the room, "good manners" are counter-productive. |
| caitlyn May 15, 2012 1:00 PM EDT |
@jdixon: Telling the truth in a direct and forthright way is not rude. It's sometimes misinterpreted as rude but it really isn't. If you think New Yorkers are bad about this, take New York, raise it to the tenth power, and you have Israelis. Did I mention how much I love Israel lately? It's where I really do want to live. Oh well... when I retire... |
| jdixon May 15, 2012 2:18 PM EDT |
> Telling the truth in a direct and forthright way is not rude. It's sometimes misinterpreted as rude but it really isn't. We'll have to agree to disagree about that, Caitlyn. > If you think New Yorkers are bad about this, take New York, raise it to the tenth power, and you have Israelis. And double that, and you'll have an Aussie, as I'm sure TracyAnne will be happy to tell you. :) It's a cultural thing. And, as I said, we're all influenced by our culture. It's something everyone needs to keep in mind when discussing things online. |
| tracyanne May 15, 2012 6:18 PM EDT |
Quoting:Telling the truth in a direct and forthright way is not rude. It's sometimes misinterpreted as rude but it really isn't. A person after my own heart. I always tried to live bt that axiom |
| caitlyn May 15, 2012 11:14 PM EDT |
@tracyanne: Despite our occasional disagreements I've always thought we were somewhat alike in our outlook. You've just confirmed it :) |
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