Kind of funny
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| caitlyn Apr 15, 2012 12:22 AM EDT |
This is kind of funny as previous iterations of Mandriva management have basically distanced themselves from and dismissed the community aspect. With two forks off of Mandriva: Mageia and ROSA Linux, I have to wonder if Mandriva has much of a community left at this point. |
| nikkels Apr 15, 2012 12:51 AM EDT |
Once upon a time, I was a paying member of Mandrake.
I was happy, contributed my way etc
Then management changed ! The rest you know ! Now, they can lick..... Sorry Mandriva |
| tracyanne Apr 15, 2012 3:33 AM EDT |
Quoting:Once upon a time, I was a paying member of Mandrake. I was happy, contributed my way etc Then management changed ! As was I. |
| caitlyn Apr 15, 2012 10:36 PM EDT |
Ditto. Of course, once upon a time I thought Caldera OpenLinux was one of the best distros out there. We all know where that went... |
| jdixon Apr 16, 2012 8:43 AM EDT |
Mandriva, Caldera, and a host of others over the years. :( Even Red Hat changed their focus and no longer supports their consumer version). The two standard bearers still seem to be Debian and Slackware. |
| JaseP Apr 16, 2012 9:27 AM EDT |
Quoting: As was I. Me three... |
| caitlyn Apr 16, 2012 1:57 PM EDT |
Red Hat's desktop edition (or an equivalent build of CentOS, Scientific Linux or PUIAS Linux) can be made into a very nice consumer desktop with far less work required than making Slackware into one. |
| jdixon Apr 16, 2012 2:59 PM EDT |
> Red Hat's desktop edition (or an equivalent build of CentOS, Scientific Linux or PUIAS Linux) can be made into a very nice consumer desktop with far less work required than making Slackware into one. The consumer version of Red Hat would be Fedora, caitlyn. Not Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop. I wasn't recommending either Debian or Slackware, merely noting that they're still here and viable while many competitors have come and gone. |
| caitlyn Apr 16, 2012 3:03 PM EDT |
Fedora is a cutting edge test bed with all the problems that entails. It is not and never will be suitable for ordinary, non-geek consumers. |
| caitlyn Apr 16, 2012 3:04 PM EDT |
It seems Mandriva and Slackware have something in common: serious financial difficulties. http://noctslackv1.wordpress.com/2012/04/14/slackware-needs-... |
| jdixon Apr 16, 2012 3:13 PM EDT |
> It is not and never will be suitable for ordinary, non-geek consumers. Exactly. Nor is it directly supported by Red Hat. But it's still their freely available version. |
| caitlyn Apr 16, 2012 4:11 PM EDT |
What does being freely available have to do with consumers? Most consumers use commercial operating systems and don't think either about cost or about whether the source is open or closed. |
| jdixon Apr 16, 2012 4:46 PM EDT |
> What does being freely available have to do with consumers? If someone's going to spend money, they might as well use Windows. |
| caitlyn Apr 16, 2012 4:49 PM EDT |
Really? I don't buy that. If consumers were educated as to the real costs of Windows in terms of malware (and security in general), performance and additional costs to add software I'd hope they'd make a better choice. MacOS is a better choice than Windows, for example. |
| tracyanne Apr 16, 2012 6:03 PM EDT |
Quoting:If someone's going to spend money, they might as well use Windows. For what reason? The fact that I [thought] had to pay for the first Linux I ever tried didn't stop me from trying Linux. |
| slacker_mike Apr 16, 2012 6:11 PM EDT |
@Caitlyn, I hope this isn't the case with Slackware as it is such a great distribution. I am DVD subscriber to the Slackware store starting with Slackware 13.1 and I have bought two shirts as well. I believe in financially supporting software that I find a pleasure to use. |
| DrGeoffrey Apr 16, 2012 6:22 PM EDT |
Quoting:If someone's going to spend money, they might as well use Windows. To say I disagree with jdixon is more than a little understated. Indeed, I would argue that the roots of the current depression in the western countries lay in part at the feet of MS (Windows and Office). Alas, we will never know how many millions have been lost by businesses and banks due to insecure and poorly designed MS software. |
| caitlyn Apr 16, 2012 8:23 PM EDT |
tracyanne: I remember buying boxed sets of Red Hat, Mandrake, Caldera, etc... in stores. Yes, it was freely downloadable but at the dialup speeds available to most of us at the time simply buying it was easier. When I was introduced to Linux in 1995 two distros were recommended to me: Red Hat and Slackware. Both were available at the local software store. As I remember, Slackware came in a zip lock bag but the floppy labels (or CD label) was neatly printed :) |
| jdixon Apr 16, 2012 8:41 PM EDT |
> For what reason? For compatibility with the majority of other computer users, compatibility with their workplace, and access to the software library they're already used to. Sure, they're going to get spyware and viruses, and probably have to pay someone to remove them. Sure, they're on the endless upgrade cycle. Sure, it's neither as stable nor as efficient as Linux. But most people don't care. |
| tracyanne Apr 16, 2012 9:06 PM EDT |
Quoting:For compatibility with the majority of other computer users............ Sorry that doesn't explain why, if someone is going to pay for an OS, they should get Windows. That is a reason for using Windows, but not a reason for paying for any particular OS. As I've already stated i paid for my very first Linux (I was still a Windows user at the time), others have explained that they pay for their Linux, people pay for Mac OS, and lots of people who never involve themselves in most Linux Forums pay for whatever Linspire is now called, and probably other Linuxes where there is some sort of Subscription required. |
| caitlyn Apr 16, 2012 9:15 PM EDT |
Most Windows refugees who choose Linux do so because of their frustration with Windows and its myriad problems. |
| dinotrac Apr 16, 2012 10:08 PM EDT |
@jdixon -- And where does the Mac fit into all that? Mac use is growing. I see it whenever I see Rails developers (that is a very Mac-heavy crowd). Even my sister-in-law finally got so disgusted with Windows viruses that she tossed her pc and bought a Mac. |
| jdixon Apr 16, 2012 10:48 PM EDT |
> Sorry that doesn't explain why, if someone is going to pay for an OS, they should get Windows. That is a reason for using Windows, but not a reason for paying for any particular OS. If those points didn't make the matter clear enough, I doubt any further attempts on my part will be successful. > And where does the Mac fit into all that? Mac use is growing. The Mac is still too pricey for most folks, Dino. And the listed issues still remain. Most businesses are still not particularly Mac friendly, among average users their friends will be using Windows over Macs by almost 9 to 1, and most people use Windows software at work and used to it. I recommend Macs to people who say they can afford it and don't need to worry about work compatibility. |
| BernardSwiss Apr 16, 2012 11:12 PM EDT |
@jdixon >> For what reason? > For compatibility with the majority of other computer users, compatibility with their workplace, and access to the software library they're already used to. > Sure, they're going to get spyware and viruses, and probably have to pay someone to remove them. Sure, they're on the endless upgrade cycle. Sure, it's neither as stable nor as efficient as Linux. But most people don't care. - People still believe in the aphorism that "You get what you pay for." I believe that the more large corporations run the economy and shape the market, the less reliable this aphorism becomes. This is most visible in sectors of the economy labelled "high technology", including most especially computing and "digital" / information technology. (The power and influence of "marketing" in its various forms only exacerbates the issue.) The technology field is changing fast enough that people (aka "customers" or "consumers") simply have have a hard time catching up with the reality, that even though these products may in fact be quite wonderful, the corporate players are still ripping them off. When they do begin to catch on, their is a feeling that in our present system, there's nothing to be done about it anyways -- so they avoid acknowledging the unpleasant reality. People do get what they pay for; but when it comes to technology, people are generally overpaying. |
| caitlyn Apr 16, 2012 11:31 PM EDT |
Preloaded Linux systems tend to be pricey and come from boutique dealers. Maybe the higher price tag can be a selling point. |
| tracyanne Apr 16, 2012 11:42 PM EDT |
Well it sure as hell beats buying a computer with windows, and hoping it will work with Linux |
| caitlyn Apr 17, 2012 12:00 AM EDT |
Actually, tracyanne, nowadays most anything in the shops around here will work with Linux. Yes, you may have to download and compile a driver in some cases, but mostly things do work. A few years ago that simply wasn't true. |
| tracyanne Apr 17, 2012 2:28 AM EDT |
Quoting:Yes, you may have to download and compile a driver in some cases, ... You see caitlyn, that constitutes does not work, in my book, if the driver isn't available in the repository, and or requires extra work, like searching for binaries or compiling, then it doesn't just work. The way nVidia drivers are handled on Ubuntu and derivatives, with jockey, is the most work I'll accept as just works. In addition if i buy a computer with Windows preloaded, and thankfully I don't have to, that's money to Microsoft, money I'd rather not pay. Yes I would have done and will do so again, pay way more than the Windows License for something with Linux. Especially when that money goes to support companies that support Linux. |
| jdixon Apr 17, 2012 10:09 AM EDT |
> ...pay way more than the Windows License for something with Linux. More, yes. But how much more? 10%, 20%, 50%? A ZaReason Alto 3880 lists for $650. What appears to be a comparable Dell Inspiron 14R lists for $500. That's a 30% markup. |
| number6x Apr 17, 2012 11:01 AM EDT |
@jdixon, But the ZaReason Alto is not a Dell... That has to be worth something :) |
| gus3 Apr 17, 2012 11:06 AM EDT |
Now now, number6x, no reason to fight dirty. |
| jdixon Apr 17, 2012 11:27 AM EDT |
> That has to be worth something :) Not to most people, no. It's worth something to me, but not very much. Certainly not $150. |
| number6x Apr 17, 2012 12:18 PM EDT |
Actually, I use a Dell 1420n as my main computer. The 1420n with Linux was about $150 less than the comparable ZaReason or System 76 models back when I bought it. It was one of the few laptops Dell promoted with Linux pre-installed. It runs quite well with Linux, and the quality isn't too bad either. It survived my getting hit by a car on my way to work one day back in 2009*. I had to replace the HD as it started failing after the jolt and the speakers have been wonky since then, but headphones are fine**. The laptop shipped with Ubuntu 7.10 and was upgraded though each iteration to 11.10. That was my first real use of Ubuntu outside of playing with the live cd's previously. the laptop was recently re-installed with Linux Mint 12 running cinnamon as the DE. The 14r is not a bad deal. I wish they shipped with Linux on it. My last 3 computers were all bought with Linux pre-installed. It's a choice I make willingly but for my next purchase, I'll see if the price difference is worth it to me. I do like to be able to choose the color of the lid on my laptops. So, yes, I was just joking about it being a Dell. - Sean * I commute by bike as often as possible to save money and get some exercise. Only that one incident in over 12 years of regular commuting in a crowded city with lots of distracted drivers. **I'm fine as well, just a broken finger and some bruised ribs. |
| JaseP Apr 17, 2012 12:53 PM EDT |
I bought several machines from dell with Linux pre-installed. Interestingly, one of them shipped with a card reader insert (the type that goes where floppy drives used to go) that didn't originally have Linux support. It still won't read the newer cards... Later, I bought several systems that came with Windoze (and those hard drives wiped within an average of 20 min. from being unboxed). M$ subsidized my Linux machine purchases on those ones (getting them with Linux was either not available or actually cost more, same as the so-called employee discount they offer to buyers from my company). So, what's happening is that all the junk they put on the machines actually gets the machines subsidized by the M$ or the equipment manufacturers or software publishers. Then, they try to up sell services (extended warranties, additional software purchases, additional hardware, etc.). There are kick-backs galore in all this. The whole thing reminds me of Hollywood accounting on blockbuster movies, the kind that shows that despite grossing $250 million more than they cost to make, still shows them as a loss. |
| gus3 Apr 17, 2012 1:18 PM EDT |
@JaseP, that card reader, being older, can't handle the signals required for the new HD SD cards. The form factor and the physical connector is the same as the old style; the only thing they changed was the signals being transmitted. My mother's HP printer suffers from a similar handicap. |
| jdixon Apr 17, 2012 1:56 PM EDT |
> The 14r is not a bad deal. I wish they shipped with Linux on it. You and probably everyone else here. :) My Mini 9 came with Ubuntu 8.04, and it's worked extremely well. I've upgraded it to 10.4, and will probably upgrade to Mint when their next LTS version comes out. I'm sure it would run Slackware fine, but since it came with Ubuntu on it, I'd just as soon stay with an Ubuntu derivative. |
| caitlyn Apr 17, 2012 1:58 PM EDT |
@tracyanne: By your definition of "just works" WIndows doesn't just work on most systems either. In fact, it just works less frequently than Linux, which supports a lot more hardware out of the virtual box. The difference, of course, is that Windows comes preinstalled and Linux usually doesn't. I've argued that for Linux to make any serious inroads on the desktop (whatever that is nowadays) it has to be preinstalled for years. It seems we agree on that :) My definition of works with Linux is different from "just works". Can I make it work in a well documented way quickly and without great difficulty? If the answer to the question is "yes" then it works well enough with Linux for me. Most hardware nowadays does, which is a good thing IMHO. My netbook, an HP Mini 110, came with Ubuntu preinstalled. At the time there was no real price difference. My small form factor desktop was a $150 loss leader around Christmas, 2009. What I wrote then still applies: http://broadcast.oreilly.com/2010/09/loss-leaders-and-linux.... |
| skelband Apr 17, 2012 2:57 PM EDT |
@caitlyn: That's a point which has irked me for a long time. How many Windows have In installed in the past and it doesn't work with my USB ports, doesn't recognise that I have a multi-core CPU, doesn't recognise my Video card, motherboard southbridge, audio hardware, my printer, my scanner or my monitor? Yet Windows supposedly "works out of the box". Yet, when I install Linux on practically anything, it just works apart from the occasional WiFi driver requirement and that's becoming quite rare these days. Part of this I guess is that Linux is continually evolving whereas Windows is released as well spaced-out snapshots. |
| Fettoosh Apr 17, 2012 3:06 PM EDT |
Quoting: @TC Said: Quoting:Caitlyn Said: I agree with @TC. But catilyn, Windows shouldn't be used as a model base reference since Linux has already surpassed it. That doesn't mean Linux developers and Distributors should not attempt to make Linux much better to match its technical excellence. The can do that by enhancing its user friendliness, better consideration to QA, and making it seamless even to the novice user. It takes some effort but would be worth it. |
| caitlyn Apr 17, 2012 3:48 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh: Where did I say otherwise? I don't see anything in your last comment that I disagree with. |
| tracyanne Apr 17, 2012 5:29 PM EDT |
Quoting:@jdixon, It also comes preloaded with Linux, not Windows, that IS worth $150 to me. |
| tracyanne Apr 17, 2012 5:33 PM EDT |
Quoting:@tracyanne: By your definition of "just works" WIndows doesn't just work on most systems either. Correct, and one of the things I hate about Windows. |
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