This application hadn't occurred to me.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Ridcully Jan 27, 2012 8:44 AM EDT |
When I first saw these Chromebooks, I looked at them from my own personal usage which requires a fully functional laptop and I simply discarded the idea. This article however approaches the Chromebook from another direction which interests me deeply. I'm an ex-science/maths high school teacher and the thought of a computer that is virtually tamper-proof, virus free, simple and requires no setting up is remarkably appealing for use by students. With the higher speeds and ethernet port they almost become irresistible to a school trying to reduce costs. Mind you, here in Queensland I am not sure they would get off the ground purely because Qld Education sees nothing but Redmond software and demands total control of all school computers. I'm sure there are some drawbacks, but given the plethora of apps provided by Google, it's difficult to see that most basic school student requirements would not be satisfied. |
| Fettoosh Jan 27, 2012 12:11 PM EDT |
@Ridcully, The Chromebook would have been an excellent device in various areas if it wasn't for the high cost. When it was first released, it was offered for $500, which is more than many descent full fledged laptops/netbooks/desktops. It is a good tool for information & data consumption. Besides schools, it is a good kiosk or thin client in public places like libraries, airports, restaurants, hospitals, etc... and even in the enterprise where computers are mostly used to access information. |
| JaseP Jan 27, 2012 6:48 PM EDT |
When Chromebooks (as well as ChomeTops) are offered in the $250 to $300 USD range, and there are services specially for business & education, then they'll take off. |
| Khamul Jan 27, 2012 7:07 PM EDT |
Comparing Chromebooks, laptops, or netbooks to desktop PCs is invalid, and a case of "apples and oranges". Desktop PCs have, as long as I can remember (back to the original Compaq), always been cheaper and more powerful than laptops, because of the nature of the machine and because of commoditization of the components. That may change in the future if desktops become specialty items or something, but it isn't the case yet from what I can tell. However, comparing any of those 3 portable form factors to each other is perfectly valid, and really makes me wonder why some of these smaller and more minimalist items are so expensive compared to fully-featured laptops. Yes, they're smaller, and cramming more stuff in a smaller space can incur extra cost, but at the same time, the three highest-cost components of a mobile PC are the screen, the CPU, and the hard drive (and probably the memory at #3 or #4). The screen is a pretty big one; bigger screens cost more than smaller ones, unless the small ones have exceptionally high resolution (and DPI), but this isn't the case with the netbooks usually. The CPUs in the smaller units are also generally very low-powered and low-cost, like the Atom; those just don't cost as much as the Core i5 in my laptop. They usually have less memory too; the only other variable is the HD, which might be a SSD instead of a conventional one. So why the heck are these Chromebooks so expensive? And who's paying that? |
| Fettoosh Jan 27, 2012 8:20 PM EDT |
Quoting:Comparing Chromebooks, laptops, or netbooks to desktop PCs is invalid... You seemed to have missed my point, I was comparing prices not features and functions. |
| Ridcully Jan 27, 2012 10:54 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh.....I tend to agree. The price for a Chromebook needs to come down. So much has been stripped out of them that they should be much cheaper than the price you quote. For me, I wasn't looking at prices. I was only considering the fact that the Chromebook had a net-client ability and all that gives via Google-apps, and even more importantly, they are student tamper proof. Of all aspects, that is the one that is really critical at school levels where some students will introduce destructive software purely to prove that they can. At least the Chromebooks would solve the problems of constant software repair......or at least that is how I understand things. Update.....Sorry JaseP.......I forgot to acknowledge your comment about price as well. That sounds fair to me too. At those prices, the school could go for straight out purchase rather than rent. |
| Khamul Jan 28, 2012 4:16 AM EDT |
@Fettoosh: Still, I think it's an invalid comparison, because the form factors are way too far apart. Sure, you can get a much more-powerful desktop for the same as that Chromebook, but you can't put the desktop in your backpack and use it at the coffee shop, so it's really irrelevant. However, you can get a more feature-full regular laptop for that price, and you CAN bring that to the coffee shop with you, so it's really the same kind of device, though the laptop is slightly bigger and heavier. Time for the obligatory car analogy. Suppose you're looking at over-the-road tractors, so you can haul 52-foot trailers around. For the price of a really nice Kenworth or Peterbilt, you could instead buy a low-end Ferrari. The Ferrari is much, much faster than any of those tractors, and more stylish too. But it can't tow a 52-foot trailer, so it's not much of an alternative for your needs. Plus it doesn't have a sleeper berth in the back for you to sleep in on your cross-country trips, and this is a standard feature on the trucks. |
| Fettoosh Jan 28, 2012 12:53 PM EDT |
OK Khamul, let me clarify a little more. I said "The Chromebook would have been an excellent device in various areas if it wasn't for the high cost. When it was first released, it was offered for $500, which is more than many descent full fledged laptops/netbooks/desktops." What that meant is, if someone had a computer and only needs the functions a Chromebook can furnish for more money, no person who is sensible enough would replace it. On the other hand, if the cost is pretty close, it might be a good idea. In other words, no matter what the device is, whether it is a laptop/netbooks/desktop, a Chromebook would be a good replacement/substitute if it was less costly and furnishes the same functions that the user needs. |
| Khamul Jan 28, 2012 4:47 PM EDT |
I'll agree to that. So I guess that brings us back to the question: why the heck are they so costly? |
| DrGeoffrey Jan 28, 2012 4:52 PM EDT |
Don't be evil? |
| gus3 Jan 28, 2012 7:30 PM EDT |
If "don't be evil" implies "product is expensive", then the Raspberry Pi is truly demonic. Sign me up! ;-) |
| DrGeoffrey Jan 28, 2012 7:46 PM EDT |
Q: Is Google fearful that if they cut the price to something close to cost they could undermine the market for laptops, opening themselves to complaints of monopolistic practices? |
| gus3 Jan 28, 2012 7:57 PM EDT |
And the complainant would be Microsoft. Followed by the Internet melting down under the crushing weight of trillions of messages containing only "LOL". |
| Ridcully Jan 28, 2012 9:44 PM EDT |
Okay......so I'll now ask this question: Does anybody know (or have a reasonably close idea of) the true cost of manufacture per Chromebook ? Once we know that, we can think about what the retail cost should be. |
| gus3 Jan 28, 2012 10:31 PM EDT |
The retail cost should be what they can get people to pay for it. |
| Ridcully Jan 28, 2012 11:23 PM EDT |
To some extent, Gus3...but not always. In any event, I look at it slightly differently in terms of demand, but you could argue it is two sides of the same coin. However, prices in Australia are often deliberately inflated by multinationals to exorbitant amounts because Australians have allowed themselves to be absolute suckers. As an example, I am aware of a mower part which costs $85 off the shelf in Australia but imported from the USA costs $25 including postage. That possibly supports your contention. However, recent announcements out of the Nokia Microsoft stable seem to be indicating that their new Lumia (?) phone will sell for around $50 which is a fraction of its true cost but is indicative of the desperation Microsoft is reaching to break into the smart phone market with a Windows based phone. That price is totally unrelated to the needs of the consumer - it's being drive solely by the desires of a monopoly corporation that sees its hold on consumers being loosened. Australian marketplaces have been notoriously skewed in favour of profits based on greed rather than a fair profit - and I am sure that you will know what I am driving at here. It is also why our big electrical, clothing and book retailers are now screaming, because the internet has empowered the common person to the extent that they now look at the prices all over the globe and they can see they are being ripped off by the local stores........and therefore go overseas for their purchases. I see the trend accelerating too, until these big corporations begin to lower their prices. I still go back to my question, what should be the manufacturing cost (approx.) of a Chromebook ? Update next day: here is something I didn't know. It is possible to install Ubuntu on a Chromebook and dual boot. This alters the situation quite a lot. If a Chromebook has a usb port, it becomes almost a usable laptop ? http://www.itworld.com/unified-communications/245085/chrome-... And indeed they do: http://www.chromebookspecs.com/ You can do almost anything with these things. |
| caitlyn Jan 30, 2012 4:43 PM EDT |
Quoting:Comparing Chromebooks, laptops, or netbooks to desktop PCs is invalid, and a case of "apples and oranges".I disagree. A whole lot of people (myself included) use laptops and netbooks as desktop replacements. My current desktop will almost certainly be my last. I find your analogy with trucks to be more than a tad off base. The only difference for me in terms of what I do with a system between a portable device and a desktop is the portability. There is no reason on earth why a portable system can't double as a desktop. Back to Chromebooks: Quoting:The retail cost should be what they can get people to pay for it.Of course. That's how a free market works. The point is that you can get more functionality for less money based on current pricing. OTOH, Ridcully is absolutely correct when he points out that in an educational environment the missing functionality could actually prove to be an advantage. |
| Ridcully Jan 30, 2012 6:06 PM EDT |
@Caitlyn.....Quoting:My current desktop will almost certainly be my last. Interesting you should say that. I haven't used a full desktop computer now for over 4 years. Admittedly, with an electrical system running on solar power, I did have reasons of power economy in mind.....On the other hand, I would never leave the convenience of a portable laptop computer again. So many cables and clutter have gone and I can take this pc with me wherever I go. |
| Khamul Jan 30, 2012 7:24 PM EDT |
@caitlyn: Ok, then, how many people are using a desktop computer as a laptop replacement? A laptop can do almost anything a desktop can do (albeit with a LOT less screen space, unless you add on a couple of external monitors, but then you're basically turning it back into a "desktop", at least partially), but a desktop can't do everything a laptop can, namely being portable and running off a battery. As for the truck analogy, a tractor-trailer can go just about anywhere a Ferrari can go, just not as fast, and it might run over a few curbs. As long as time isn't a giant concern, there's pretty much nothing you can do with a Ferrari that you can't do with a tractor-trailer (esp. on wide American roads with speed limits). A Ferrari can't do all the things a truck can do, namely pulling a 80,000 pound trailer and giving you a place to sleep while you do so. I think it's a fair analogy: the truck is like the laptop, and the Ferrari is like the desktop. The analogy mainly breaks down if you look at fuel consumption; the Ferrari gets about the same as the truck, maybe slightly better, but the mpg-per-pound-of-cargo stat is far worse than the truck, whereas laptops generally have much lower power consumption than desktops. |
| cr Jan 31, 2012 9:38 AM EDT |
The desktop system wins on modularity and component replacement. If you have a ROFL-CIK (rolling on floor laughing, coke/coffee in keyboard) event, $15 at Staples replaces the humor-impaired keyboard. Take it home, plug it in, done. I've got a laptop here that's needed an external kybd ever since a mineral-water spill a decade ago. My kids used to (and kinda still do) go through desktop keyboards on a regular basis, between rough treatment and food-and-drink-at-console. Ditto, mice. Folks don't hold onto the boxes as long, nor replace/upgrade parts so much, as in the DOS days, but the potential is still there for the desktops: swap in a new mobo and graphics card, maybe the PSU as well, poof, new life for the old workhorse. Laptops are fixed-selection packages which seem to need a new-model-upgrade when the ashtrays get full. Sometimes the designers don't get the thermal engineering right on those tight little bodies and that description is literal. The constraints imposed by modern expectations for laptop machines -- needle-thin, desktop-fast and sleek-lines-shiny (which means no obvious interruptions of those lines for little inconsequentials like robust connectors and ducts) make it easy to get wrong. Compare that with how easy it is to direct airflow through a box on or under a desk. Cooking components into early retirement is to be expected; not entirely unexpected is that they sometimes cook their owners as well. There's plenty of appeal left for desktop machines; I'm holding onto mine. |
| caitlyn Jan 31, 2012 10:40 AM EDT |
@Khamul: Lots and lots and lots of people use laptops as desktop replacements. When I was doing an IBM contract years ago they were replacing all their desktops with ThinkPads. I've seen other companies do the same. My mom, a retired university professor in her '70s, who is in no way a geek, did so as well. Regarding screen space, I've hooked my netbook up to a 32" HD TV which can double as a monitor. No lack of screen space there and the netbook does support much higher video resolution on an external monitor. Using it with a wireless keyboard and mouse that effectively makes it a small desktop. The differences between a truck and a Ferrari are much, much, much greater that between a desktop and a laptop. Your analogy fails because it simply doesn't match up. @Ridcully: I was where you are about four years ago. Two years ago CompUSA had a clearance small footprint destop for $150 and that was too good a deal to pass up. |
| JaseP Jan 31, 2012 10:49 AM EDT |
Laptops can be tweaked more than you give them credit (SSDs, RAM, mini/micro PC I cards, etc.), but your assessment about desktop machines is spot on. One other class that falls in between are the small footprint "desktop" machines, more tweakable, with some of the tight space issues that laptops have. I don't think desktops are dead, but I think their use cases are shrinking. |
| Khamul Jan 31, 2012 2:01 PM EDT |
@cr: You need to buy some genuine IBM Model M keyboards. Then you won't have to replace them, no matter how roughly you treat them. @caitlyn: Are you not reading what I'm writing? Yes, laptops are used to replace desktops all the time, and more and more. No, desktops are NOT used to replace laptops. It's a one-way thing. And yes, my analogy does work, because of the one-way nature: a truck can go anywhere a Ferrari can go with its trailer. A Ferrari can't tow a trailer. It's the same with desktops and laptops. A laptop can do anything a desktop can do. A desktop can't do what a laptop can do (be carried around in a bag and used while sitting on a park bench). |
| cr Jan 31, 2012 3:06 PM EDT |
@Khamul: got one in house; hate it. I gave it to the kitchen machine so the kids could get at it; it's still around, PBJ and all. Modern-day low-force keyboards are my style, so long as I can "ctrl:swapcaps" so Control's to the left of the A where the gods intended. Even then my typing can barely keep up with my thoughts; with a lossy kybd like the IBM or the Northgate 101 I started DOS on, I might as well be back on a manual typewriter. Oh, and add my vote to those who think your truck/sports-car analogy is slightly skewed: I see the desktop box as the truck. It doesn't have the portable thing going, just as there are places a car can go that a truck can't (Storrow Drive in Boston, for one -- I once saw a truck that used a bridge there as a can-opener for its trailer; the racket the top made as it was dragged along was what alerted me), but it can be outfitted for just about any computing job with add-ons and component upgrades; the car is limited to what was in the showroom and, pretty much, so is the laptop. |
| Khamul Jan 31, 2012 3:18 PM EDT |
@cr: I find my typing to be much faster with a buckling-spring keyboard. Cr@ppy squishy keys just slow me down. You've got the analogy backwards. The laptop is the truck, the desktop is the Ferrari. Trucks can go anywhere cars can go, as long as roads are built to standard sizes. If the bridge is too narrow for a truck, there's something wrong there, as there's standards in place for how wide roads and bridges must be for public roads. About the only place trucks have any real trouble is parking lots, but even then skilled drivers can do some amazing things. I'm ignoring the add-on and upgrade stuff; you can do all of that stuff with cars anyway. Maybe you don't, but there's plenty of online communities of car enthusiasts adding turbos, swapping in different engines (sometimes from different manufacturers--check out the people putting Chevy small blocks into Datsun 280Zs or Mazda RX7s), putting in bigger brakes (many times by getting parts from a larger model by the same mfgr), and sometimes completely ridiculous stuff like turning a front-engine car into a mid-engine car (this involves some welding). Cars are NOT "limited to what was in the showroom" by any stretch of the imagination, any more than trucks are. I've never heard of anyone upgrading an engine on a Peterbilt. Anyway, this is irrelevant because 99.9% of desktop users don't do add-ons and upgrades; they buy a box from Dell, put it in their cubicle, and that's it. 5 years later when the company does a refresh, they exchange it for another Dell box. |
| mbaehrlxer Feb 01, 2012 4:38 AM EDT |
since it was asked above: i am using a desktop as a laptop replacement. (or rather, i am using a desktop and a cheap netbook instead of a laptop (i never owned a laptop)) the main reason is that laptops are to heavy for me to move around. and because of that they are not worth the extra cost. a desktop is cheaper and more powerful (more bang for the buck). for my mobility needs the netbook has enough power. (this message is typed on a laptop from the company.but only because we already had it, we'd have bought a desktop instead) greetings, eMBee. |
| dinotrac Feb 01, 2012 10:27 AM EDT |
@embeee.... Good oh my gosh gracious!!! Is your mom a Virginia farm girl and your dad a Mississippi fighter pilot? I swear we were seperated at birth!! I avoid "laptop" laptops at all costs. When presented with one by a client, I ditched it as soon as I was able to get into the requisite VPN from Linux. My main workstation is a good old-fashoned desktop with a nice curvy keyboard with a nice comfy wireless mouse and a great-big (by my standards -- 21") wide-screen monitor. My #1 portable is an HP mini 10" netbook that I picked up for $38 (it was given to me when the hard-disk died and the owner discovered that a repair place would charge nearly as much to fix it as it cost to buy in the first place) -- the cost of a hard drive. I don't own a "laptop" case because the netbook goes into my backtop just fine. The small form-factor makes it much less susceptible to flexing than the larger machines, so this is one case where lightweight = more sturdy. When at my office office, I hook the thing up to a monitor and keyboard, and ssh into my home workstation or one of my servers out in the great Wild. I also have a full Rails stack on the thing, so I can work on the train (when I ride it). More oomph would be nice on those occasions, but not nice enough to outweight the weight and size. My #2 portable is pretty cool, but I'm still warming up to it. I picked up an Asus Transformer (not the Prime -- but it cost me a whole lot less) because a client's techs are using their mobiles and we want to check out what can be done with a tablet and GPS. With the keyboard attached, it is a kinda-sorta netbook replacement with an 18 hour battery life. I haven't been able (yet) to get multiple ssh terminal sessions to the same server, or find a way to work that's anywhere as nice as using GNOME (2) or XFCE on X, but maybe that's just a matter of practice. I have to admit, though, the touch screen is pretty nice. It makes our application much slicker, too. |
| Khamul Feb 01, 2012 1:40 PM EDT |
@dinotrac: "flexing"? I've never had a problem with that in my Thinkpads. I don't think they can flex significantly, since they have magnesium frames. It's also nice having full-size keys, and a decently-large screen. And how an extra pound or two of weight makes any difference in mobility, I simply cannot fathom unless you're physically disabled. |
| ColonelPanik Feb 01, 2012 2:57 PM EDT |
@Khamul Lenovo G460 here and it is very limp. Great specs but.... it is not a great laptop.
Just ordered 8Gigs of RAM. It computes very well, the physical aspects are sub-standard. @ Everybody: laptop vs desktop. Use what works best for you, eh? @dino At 67 years and 125 lbs I can lug this one just fine, but a 12-13 inch would travel better. I am impressed by the people doing everything on their phone, that is just cool. |
| Khamul Feb 01, 2012 3:22 PM EDT |
@Colonel: You need to get the T-series Thinkpads. Those are the ones built like tanks. The keyboards are also excellent (for a laptop; obviously no competition for a Model M). |
| ColonelPanik Feb 01, 2012 6:08 PM EDT |
@Khamul, Yes, but I was blinded by the specs and working with a very thin wallet. Where were you when I made this horrible purchase? |
| DrGeoffrey Feb 01, 2012 6:26 PM EDT |
re: T-series Thinkpads If Lenovo would remove Windows and MS Office, those could be some nice laptops. |
| mbaehrlxer Feb 02, 2012 2:23 AM EDT |
dinotrac: hehe: the trouble with being separated at birth is that one of us (or both) have the wrong parents, so how can we tell? on "lightweight = more sturdy" indeed i feel the same. my main criteria is lightweight, but when i look at some of those larger lightweight laptops i am afraid i'd break it because when i am travelling i tend to stuff my bag as there is always that extra item that needs to be packed... greetings, eMBee. |
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