Jerk..
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| theBeez Nov 12, 2011 1:17 PM EDT |
Nerd are nerds. The very best ones may not have any education at all. Since they're not in marketing, they may use any font you care. Chances are, they haven't touched a word processor in years. Why should they, they write code, not documentation. And if they write any documentation, they'll probably do it in LaTeX, which at least offers some resemblance with compilers. They probably turn up late on their interview or tell you to wait a minute when they're called in, because they just have to finish that function they're programming on their laptops. That'll be C, because real nerds won't touch C++ with a pole. For as much as they care, that OO abomination is simply a wrap for dynamic memory based structures with initialized function pointers - hardly a paradigm. A simple dedicated preprocessor will do the same thing, while you're still having some control on their allocation and deallocation. But the most probably scenario is, that they won't want to work for you - for several reasons. First is, they're not judged on their skills, but on their choice of stationary and whatever fonts they have installed. And while you and your staff are probably incapable of predicting three hundred lines before it happens, they can tell you what registers have to be available on a 6502 at that moment, consequently saving several T-states and bytes and making the whole thing relocatable in the process as well. Merely as a hobby they won't USE a C++ compiler but write TinyC++ in the amount of space it will take you and your staff to create "Hello world". A toy, true, just for fun. Without using YACC or LEX, that is, because it is so much more fun to write a recursive descent parser yourself from scratch. Second, they will most probably have a job, one that pays more than yours that is. And if they apply for a job at your place you'll most probably lose them in a month, because they found a better one. You were just a stop gap. Because for real nerds there is so much more fun to be had than working for jerks like you. |
| tuxchick Nov 12, 2011 1:42 PM EDT |
Well Hans, I'll grant you're the expert on being a jerk. |
| theBeez Nov 12, 2011 1:57 PM EDT |
@tuxchick How is the programming getting along, Carla? |
| tracyanne Nov 12, 2011 4:46 PM EDT |
::shrug:: |
| BernardSwiss Nov 12, 2011 7:46 PM EDT |
Do you think El Reg might publish that rant as a counter-opinion? |
| montezuma Nov 12, 2011 7:55 PM EDT |
A slap for the ages there TC. LOL |
| mbaehrlxer Nov 13, 2011 12:12 AM EDT |
hmm, i'd expect any decent programmer to be able to spell. if you can learn the exact syntax of C, then you can learn the exact syntax of your parents language. if you never used a word processor i'd expect you not to use any font at all, or colors. my own CV is sent in plain text. so the people this guy is complaining about are probably not the people he is looking for anyways, they are doing him a favor. and geek or not, complaining about your previous employer, sloppiness and lying are things i'd expect a capable person to avoid. greetings, eMBee. |
| gus3 Nov 13, 2011 8:00 AM EDT |
How many reserved words does C (or even C++) have? Comparing that to a full human language is like comparing apples and apple seeds. |
| theBeez Nov 13, 2011 9:39 AM EDT |
@montezuma Well, I expect something better from a so-called "associate" editor. But that is according to my professional standards, which TC has proven over and over again to be completely lacking. |
| montezuma Nov 13, 2011 9:54 AM EDT |
@theBeez Lighten up. You are on an internet forum. I remind you that you are the one who titled the thread "Jerk". Hardly professional.... |
| theBeez Nov 13, 2011 11:29 AM EDT |
@montezuma FYI, I'm here as a forum user, not a columnist, not an associate editor or in any official capacity at all. If I were I'd act differently, believe me. BTW, if I wouldn't I have no doubt at all that I would be called to the office and have a lengthy chat with my editor. That's how professional organizations work. |
| mbaehrlxer Nov 13, 2011 1:38 PM EDT |
gus3: C is more than just reserved keywords. there is a whole long list of functions that need to be spelled correctly. and when you speak C well, you know many of these functions. its your vocabulary. greetings, eMBee. |
| tuxchick Nov 13, 2011 3:14 PM EDT |
I removed my own comment. I shouldn't post after champagne brunches....never mind! |
| montezuma Nov 13, 2011 6:20 PM EDT |
@theBeez Yes TC probably shouldn't have done that. Similarly a forum member hoping to start a thread engendering intelligent and thoughtful commentary should probably not title it "Jerk.." |
| gus3 Nov 13, 2011 6:40 PM EDT |
@mbaehr: Any of those functions can be renamed, into Dutch, or Swahili, Arabic or even Chinese. Embedded programing isn't expected to use any of the standard libc functions. Carrying it further, even the keywords can be re-#define'd, so there is no requirement to know even rudimentary English to be a good C programmer. |
| jdixon Nov 13, 2011 7:36 PM EDT |
> if you can learn the exact syntax of C, then you can learn the exact syntax of your parents language. First, as gus3 points out, English is at least an order of magnitude more complex than C. Second, the matter is complicated by the fact that English doesn't even have a single syntax which everyone accepts as correct. It's syntax has been defined multiple ways over the past few centuries, and none of them are complete descriptions of how people actually use the language. So it's completely incorrect to assume that because one can master a defined syntax such as C that they can master a much larger and more nebulously defined syntax such as English. |
| BernardSwiss Nov 13, 2011 9:19 PM EDT |
On the other hand, an error in syntax is much less likely to crash the system :-) |
| mbaehrlxer Nov 13, 2011 10:38 PM EDT |
exactly, the complexity may be different but so is the degree of correctness required. if language use is 99% correct (that would be 1 spelling errors in 100 words, that that is still workable, in C any single syntax error leads to failure to compile. and as for a single syntax everyone accepts, try writing portable code :-) gus3: there is no requirement to know english to be a programmer, but i have the expectation that if you have the capacity to be a programmer, then you have the capacity to learn to spell correctly. anyways, before we beat this analogy to death, here is a different angle: a large part of the population can spell adequately. 10 years of school is enough to learn that. greetings, eMBee. |
| gus3 Nov 14, 2011 1:16 AM EDT |
Programming skill and spelling skill have zero correlation. Ten minutes of Usenet comp.* browsing demonstrates that. But if you want to give your programing candidates a spelling test before you hire them, that's your loss (and your competitor's gain?). I'll take a poor speller, who knows when to ask for help with a challenging problem, over a good speller who's delusional about his C skills. And, in point of fact, I have. |
| BernardSwiss Nov 14, 2011 1:54 AM EDT |
Good programming is logical. In fact, in programming, good logic is vital and programs are utterly dependent on consistent logic. Good spelling, however, isn't logical at all (at least, not in English). For some strange reason, programmers think that logic is VERY important, but don't necessarily think that good spelling is very important. Funny, that. |
| tuxchick Nov 14, 2011 3:22 AM EDT |
The story is about job seekers presenting themselves in a professional, effective way. I don't buy into the 'coders are too superior to learn basic competencies like their own native languages' guff. It's silly and narcissistic, as though we mere mortals should be able to see the waves of pearly wonderfulness that radiate from Real Geniuses, and unquestioningly sumbit to their sublime superiority. Linus Torvalds, Peter Anvin, and Alan Cox write and speak multiple languages well. Angela Byron, Valerie Aurora, and Greg Kroah-Hartman are ace coders and competent writers. They also dress and feed themselves, and manage their lives without all kinds of helpless drama. Eric Raymond wrote "attitude is no substitute for competence" and "If your writing is semi-literate, ungrammatical, and riddled with misspellings, many hackers (including myself) will tend to ignore you. While sloppy writing does not invariably mean sloppy thinking, we've generally found the correlation to be strong" http://www.pavietnam.net/ It's absurd that minimal, fundamental skills should be controversial. |
| theBeez Nov 14, 2011 3:49 AM EDT |
@montezuma Agreed! The thing I tried to post at the original site (I hate sites that imply you can post without registering and then, at the final moment try to make you register anyway) was titled "Breathe..". So you can imagine why the "Jerk" thing stuck (sorry, no alcohol for me). But IMHO if you are a recuter, you should know in what pond you're fishing. Yes, some of the best programmers have very little social skills. Yes, I'd like to know whether someone can program a 6502 or Z80, Forth or Haskell, because it gives insight in the repertoire he's able to handle. And yes, I can smile when I get blue stationary, a lengthy report on how cool working for Starbucks was and how uncool working for MS was (it might even be true). Still, I have to agree that it depends on the job at hand. When specifications are done, an Asperger case may be the right man for the job. However, if he has to pry those from a client, I either have to have someone who can or take on another one to do just that. But whining about education is absolutely beyond me. I'm not interested in that, I'm interested in what he has done and can do. |
| theBeez Nov 14, 2011 3:57 AM EDT |
@Tuxchick The development of Netscape and Mozilla is very well documented, both on film and on paper. I suggest you read or watch it. The reason these persons do not make public appearance, is that they're not capable of making a public appearance. It's like "survival of the fittest" - the ones you see are the ones that can do. Those who can't do you don't see. Although not as extreme, the Woz, Paul Allen are not very well suited for those tasks as well and consequently, they rarely did. They had Steve Jobs or Bill Gates to do that for them. And I think you're familiar with the story of Phil Katz. Bottom line: let people do what they're good at. I'm always opposed to educating people in the areas where they're bad at. They usually don't like it and never become as good as others. Put your money where they're already good at and make them even better. |
| theBeez Nov 14, 2011 3:58 AM EDT |
@Tuxchick "I removed my own comment." Hmm, it may have a technical reason, but it's still there. Or is it the champagne? ;-) |
| tuxchick Nov 14, 2011 12:11 PM EDT |
Coders are not too special to be treated like normal people, though some sure expend a lot of energy insisting that they are. Expecting job applicants to have a minimal literacy and numeracy level, oh let's say 8th grade, though that is probably higher than the American average, means they'll be able to read and understand simple instructions, fill out job applications, and research how to write a good effective CVS. Just like millions of other job applicants do every day. Because smart people learn what they need to and don't sit around whining and making excuses, and demanding that the world conform to their deficiencies. |
| skelband Nov 14, 2011 12:28 PM EDT |
For an awful lot of programming jobs, being able to present what you have done to others is pretty important. In those cases, an excellent programmer that cannot adequately express themselves is a liability not an asset. They cannot document their work for others to use. They misinterpret specifications. I agree with most of what the CV guy said although, ironically, I don't think they really got the key message across very well, it being hidden by their obvious arrogance. Firstly, format and structure. I actually think this is pretty important. A good programmer should able to present a logical design in their CV. If the author can show that they planned, with forethought in advance, what they wished to say, then they demonstrate that they are capable of good design, rather then being just simple hackers. Secondly, regarding spelling and grammar, I see a general degradation of the language across the board. People don't respect and love the English language any more, unlike the French who are rabidly defensive of it, much to their derision by the English I might add. Because English does not have the complex syntactic rules of other languages, you can "get by" with less. A native English speaker can understand a non-speaker when they utter just a few ill-organised words since we use a lot of implication and inference when we use English. Unfortunately, that means even many native English speakers push the boundaries of what is the base line of "correctly structured" English, degrading general conversation into the babble that we hear a lot of teenagers speak. I've been living in Canada for a few years now, as an ex-pat Brit. It is so depressing to hear the word "like" used as a substitute for breathing. I even, one time, had the urge to offer one of these youngsters $20 if they could continue their conversation for 5 minutes without using the word "like" a single time. I didn't, but it would have been fun to see. I would give them 10 seconds. What I think the article writer was trying to say was that the CV is your conduit to the prospective employer. You wouldn't turn up to an interview dressed in smelly jeans, bad breath and a generally sloppy attitude and expect to get the job if there are 20 others in the hallway that don't. So why should your CV be the same? |
| gus3 Nov 14, 2011 12:35 PM EDT |
Comment withdrawn, in deference to skelband's much better statement of the point I was trying to make anyway. |
| BernardSwiss Nov 14, 2011 1:55 PM EDT |
Just to be clear, TC (assuming you were responding to my post, specifically?) -- I wasn't suggesting that coders should somehow be exempt from following some basic standards of "good (self)presentation", but merely commenting on one plausible reason underlying the alleged proclivity of coders to neglect "proper spelling". |
| ComputerBob Nov 14, 2011 6:48 PM EDT |
Quoting:But if you want to give your programing candidates a spelling test before you hire them, that's your loss (and your competitor's gain?). I'll take a poor speller, who knows when to ask for help with a challenging problem, over a good speller who's delusional about his C skills. That's a strawman. I'll take a good programmer who's also a good speller. |
| gus3 Nov 14, 2011 7:15 PM EDT |
I was not trying to present those as a false dichotomy. I was pointing out which I would choose if I had to make the choice. |
| tuxchick Nov 14, 2011 7:42 PM EDT |
I read you loud and clear, Bernard, no worries. |
| theBeez Nov 15, 2011 12:45 PM EDT |
@ComputerBob I take the hungry, talented one who fits in the team and is excellent for the job. Anytime. |
| ComputerBob Nov 15, 2011 5:01 PM EDT |
@theBeez - I'll take the hungry, talented one who is also a good speller, has a great sense of humor, runs a charity that helps orphans in his/her spare time, and treats everyone to a steak dinner once each month (as long as we're making up hand-picked strawman scenarios). |
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