sigh...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tuxchick Oct 07, 2011 8:08 PM EDT |
Me too, Larry. RMS' remarks were crass and graceless. He insulted both Jobs, everyone who works at Apple, and Apple customers. When you're a leader you don't get to say whatever pops into your stupid head-- you have a responsibility to weigh your words and measure their impact, and to speak carefully. At last I agree that the FSF needs a new public face. |
| Scott_Ruecker Oct 07, 2011 8:21 PM EDT |
I agree, I may not have been a big fan of Steve's or Apple for that matter but what he said shows no class. |
| jdixon Oct 07, 2011 8:21 PM EDT |
Larry, Stallman has always been a tactless, rude jerk. There's nothing new about this. I believe he'll even admit it. |
| tracyanne Oct 07, 2011 8:27 PM EDT |
Quoting:Steve Jobs, the pioneer of the computer as a jail made cool, designed to sever fools from their freedom, has died. Never speak ill of the dead, eh. Well Stallman never spoke anything but ill of Steve Jobs while he was alive. Don't you think it would be hypocritical of him to do any different now that the man is dead. Sorry Larry, Carla, Stallman is always less than tactful, and this latest is no different, in degree, from anything else he has ever said. If you don't like the way he states his case or his thoughts, you should have resigned ages ago. Personally I've avoided joining the FSF for exactly those reasons. |
| vainrveenr Oct 07, 2011 8:39 PM EDT |
Quoting:Me too, Larry. RMS' remarks were crass and graceless. He insulted both Jobs, everyone who works at Apple, and Apple customers. When you're a leader you don't get to say whatever pops into your stupid head-- you have a responsibility to weigh your words and measure their impact, and to speak carefully. At last I agree that the FSF needs a new public face.Agreed. Overbluntless! Maybe that "new public face" of FSF will be those Stallman effectively influenced when he visited Kerala several years ago? See 'Kerala logs Microsoft out' found at http://www.financialexpress.com/news/story/175487/ Then again, maybe not... |
| pmpatrick Oct 07, 2011 8:49 PM EDT |
His remarks are certainly tactless given the man recently died. But if Stallman had made similar remarks one month ago, would anyone have been surprised or even cared for that matter? I don't hear anyone saying that Stallman's observations are substantively wrong so much as saying that his remarks are a breach of the social taboo of speaking ill of the recently deceased. That taboo may exist for a lot of reasons, not the least of which being compassion for the friends and family of the deceased. On the other hand, I think you have to read Stallman's remarks in the larger light of the general press coverage of Steve Jobs' death which appears hell bent on deifying the man and ignoring his shortcomings, especially as viewed from Stallman's perspective. |
| tracyanne Oct 07, 2011 8:55 PM EDT |
Here, by the way, is what Marcel Gagne said. http://marcelgagne.com/content/my-reflections-steve-jobs Quoting:As a free software, open standards kind of guy, I believe in having the ability to choose what I want to run and how I want to run it. I believe in being able to select what to run on my computers. I believe in open standards and a level playing field for business large and small. I believe that vendor lock-in hurts consumers and stifles innovation. I don't believe in restrictive and highly questionable software patents (see 'stifling innovation). I don't believe in restricting individual freedoms with digital rights management in regards to fair use (e.g. making backups, putting my media on more than one device, etc). I don't believe in borrowing ideas from others and then turning around and suing them as part of how I run my business. Quoting:In short, I don't believe in almost everything and every way that Steve Jobs and Apple operate. and Quoting:But in my admiration for the man, I can't help but think about all of the other things. The non-shiny, somewhat darker side beneath the polished chrome exterior. More tactful, but essentially the same. |
| jsusanka Oct 07, 2011 9:23 PM EDT |
"Larry, Stallman has always been a tactless, rude jerk. There's nothing new about this. I believe he'll even admit it" I believe the same was said about Steve Jobs at one time. I appreciate RMS's honesty and consistency. I think the world today needs more of it. Linux is losing and it is losing in Washington D.C. Bill Gates's father and the gates foundation is making sure windows gets rammed down every child's and user throat. Pretty soon it will be illegal to download Linux. This isn't about being political anymore. It is about winning and that is the way Microsoft wants to play. I like Apple and I like Steve Jobs and what he did. He didn't make illegal deals with hardware vendors. He made his own hardware and created his own software for that hardware. I could never afford an Apple computer I still have a Tangerine Imac ( bought on ebay for 50 buck thank you) which runs Linux very nicely thank you so I always thought Apple's hardware was a step above. I especially like what he did with OS X and he saw the writing on the wall an realized his os need a complete rewrite. I don't agree with his factories in China. And I don't think he was the best of dads and I think he would even admit that fact. And I think Bill Gates owes him a lot. But don't blame RMS for his opinion. Everyone is entitled to it. The links in the article are to his home page not the FSF home page so I think he was speaking for himself not FSF. I think Steven Nicholas is pushing the panic when it isn't needed. It is a shame this software business is getting so ugly. I really shouldn't be this ugly. |
| BernardSwiss Oct 07, 2011 9:36 PM EDT |
Maybe he just over-reacted to the current beatification of Steve Jobs in the mass media? I know that myself -- as a result of the media tsunami of unadulterated praise and uncritical admiration ( if he was still alive I'd have to call it quasi-religious sycophancy) -- I'm just this side of developing an allergic reaction to the very word "job". On the other hand, maybe somebody had to raise the matter, ungracious as it might seem -- precisely because of the current flood of media adoration...? Going by the mainstream news, Steve Jobs' death is a greater loss than anybody who ever was awarded a Nobel Prize, and I doubt the Dali Lama will receive half as much or half as saccharine adoring tribute when he goes. If you think I'm exaggerating, let's just compare the coverage to (for example) that of this year's http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15211861 Nobel Peace Prize winners... |
| tuxchick Oct 07, 2011 9:47 PM EDT |
As TA and others noted, RMS has a long history of being a tactless jerk. Leaders who wish to win people over cannot be tactless jerks. I haven't wanted to admit it, but it diminishes his effectiveness as the face of the FSF and free software. Time for him to step down and let someone who does not stubbornly resist having manners and good people skills to take over. Bernard, the flood of adulation has been sickening, and predictable. Still, it's no excuse for RMS. He has to go. While he's running around insulting people, Apple sold products that people actually wanted and liked. I think it is worth asking how do they do that? Instead of calling them evil. |
| BernardSwiss Oct 07, 2011 9:54 PM EDT |
Adulation, Yes, that's a good word for it. Perhaps my response is in large part because I see current society as being far too ready to accept charm, image, or eloquence, as a substitute superior to mere substance. But you do have a point, there. |
| tracyanne Oct 07, 2011 9:58 PM EDT |
Unfortunately Bernard, people and society, for what is society without people, always have. The issue is, how do Free Software advocates make use of that trait. In short we need a Steve Jobs, or two. |
| fewt Oct 07, 2011 10:39 PM EDT |
Way to set the free software community back another 10 years, RMS. Maybe this will finally be a wake up call to the community that this sort of extremist zealotry is doing more harm than good. Time to retire RMS, please just go away. |
| moopst Oct 07, 2011 10:50 PM EDT |
I have to admit that I am sad to see Jobs go. He provided an alternative that was crucial to freeing millions from MicroSoft's jail. The Apple jail is prettier and has fewer fundamental design flaws and many users do not perceive the bars and locks. Like Mozilla, Apple provided enough of an alternative to force the adoption of open standards and for that I am truly thankful. For losing my nephews early audio recordings to Apple's DRM I am not a fan. RMS is the primary reason why I will never be a member of the FSF even though I agree with their (i.e. RMS's) basic philosophy. If you can't attract a natural ally how are you to convert the unwashed masses? |
| dinotrac Oct 07, 2011 11:12 PM EDT |
This is far from RMS at his worst. In my book, the worst was his denigration of the people killed on 9/11, something like the potential loss of freedoms in the aftermath would be far worse price than the deaths of those 2,000 and some people. There was a valid point to be made, but what a classless, clueless, and cruel way to make it, especially coming in the weeks immediately following the attacks. |
| paai Oct 08, 2011 6:57 AM EDT |
Come on! You look like a bunch of teenagers mourning the passing of Lady Di... Never forget that Steve Jobs not only marketed gadgets, he also wanted to control wat was published by those gadgets. No bare breasts on Ipad apps, no political views that he did not endorse. Is that your idea of an hero? Paai |
| helios Oct 08, 2011 9:20 AM EDT |
I never owned an "I" anything simply because I considered it the same as tattooing a cult symbol on my forehead. Wasn't ever a big fan of the "walled garden" either. But.... I did do a symbolic fist-bump with Jobs when he pulled the batter on deck and subbed ITunes at the plate. Jobs blindsided the music industry by effectively killing DRM in single-purchase music. In short, he launched it out of the ballpark and for that, if for no other reason, I applaud Jobs. Apologies to my friends on The Continent. I know baseball analogies are confounding to you.....now someone please explain to me Cricket... |
| Koriel Oct 08, 2011 10:32 AM EDT |
(Double Posted) Nope not even the content of Stallman's statement is right, and is why I am not a member of FSF either. I believe in free and proprietary models and that the two can live together the "free software to rule them all" utopian message coming from Stallman and his ilk for the past so many years is frankly at best unrealistic and unworkable. The plain stupid and ignorant statetments that Stallman is well known for, make the FSF look totally irrelevant and unrepresentative so i'm not suprised the author left and is calling for a new organisation to be created. I figured out Stallman was an idiot somewhere around 1996 and this has allowed me to ignore him these many years but now he is starting to give free software a bad name and needs to go, ignoring him is no longer an option he has to called out on it. And no, i'm not a Jobsian fan boy either, Jobs was at the other end of the spectrum with his proprietary utopian vision which i dislike just as much, never bought an Apple product in my life and never will. But I do recognise that Jobs shook up things just as Stallman did and both brought about good things but sometimes you just need to realise when your time is up and bow out gracefully. RIP Steve Jobs, hopefully the FSF will see the error of their ways in time or it may well be FSF RIP. |
| kikinovak Oct 08, 2011 10:47 AM EDT |
I'm an IT consultant using 100% GNU/Linux in my daily work. I don't own any Apple products: no iPod, no iPac, no iBook. And I think that in the terms of software philosophy, I should be more or less close to Richard Stallman's ideals, though I mainly use Slackware which isn't 100% libre, and I don't sneer on the occasional proprietary firmware/driver. All this being said, Richard Stallman's remark about Steve Jobs was completely rude and tactless, and IMHO suffices to disqualify him in the FSF. I do subscribe to the values of software freedom, but I certainly do not support affective cretinism of that sort. |
| jdixon Oct 08, 2011 11:20 AM EDT |
> Perhaps my response is in large part because I see current society as being far too ready to accept charm, image, or eloquence, as a substitute superior to mere substance. They always have and probably always will. And there are other current examples which could be used (and dwarf the adulation given Jobs), but won't be due to TOS concerns. |
| jdixon Oct 08, 2011 11:23 AM EDT |
> I figured out Stallman was an idiot somewhere around 1996 Stallman is not and idiot. He's actually quite intelligent. What he is is completely socially inept. He simply doesn't understand social norms or courtesies. |
| Koriel Oct 08, 2011 11:37 AM EDT |
@JDixon I disagree an intelligent person learns from his mistakes, he does not keep repeating them as in Stallman's case, he may not be the dictionary definition of an 'idiot' but I don't accept the "socially inept" excuse for his behaviour either. |
| jdixon Oct 08, 2011 11:50 AM EDT |
> I disagree an intelligent person learns from his mistakes, Stallman isn't capable of learning in that area. It's not something he can fix, even if he wants to. It would be like expecting me to "learn" to run a 10 second 100 meters. Added: I guess I need to add that none of this should be considered an excuse of or in support of what Stallman said. But it's not like this is the first time he's done anything like this. He has a history of such actions. |
| tuxchick Oct 08, 2011 12:00 PM EDT |
I'm with Koriel. I think it's plain old ego and stubbornness. RMS should not be the FSF spokesman. He is the brains and uncompromising vision. He stinks as the public face of the FSF. Assuming the goal of the FSF is to win people to Free Software and their other causes, that is. Calling them fools, and calling everyone who does not adhere to a pure vision evil doesn't work. How we say things is just as important as what we say, and this is the kind of garbage that makes people think Free Software is crazed zealots, rather than something important and worthy. |
| Koriel Oct 08, 2011 12:10 PM EDT |
I may have been overly harsh with the "idiot" statement but the guy really annoys me, and im usually the easy going type, my wife says that if I were any further laid back i would be horizontal but Stallman really grates on my nerves for some reason. Anyways apologies if anyone was offended. |
| fewt Oct 08, 2011 12:18 PM EDT |
I was turned off to the FSF when I attended a convention a few years ago and they were handing out stickers like "Bad Vista" etc. Stop doing that, it just makes you look like fools. I was then invited to participate in an "open vote" to test a new product (FSF driven). The results of which I was promised would not be recorded. They lied. That was the day the music died. Now this from RMS (on top of his other cr@p)? Stick a fork in him, he's done. We need real community support, not a representative that eats things from his foot and can't see past his own ignorance and arrogance to show a little bit of compassion when someone very important to the community he serves dies. I'm not really an Apple fan, and I hate my iPhone, but Steve Jobs deserves a lot of respect. Without him, we'd probably still be time slicing with green screen terminals. Xerox Parc invented the Mouse? True, but Steve Jobs is the reason you own one. |
| BernardSwiss Oct 08, 2011 12:47 PM EDT |
But if Apple had been handing out "Bad Vista" stickers, it would be cited now as an example of Job's brilliant promotion of Apple products as "cool" and appealing, and much better designed and more reliable than Windows. The media and the general public have thoroughly bought into the "frame" presented by Apple's marketing. A lot of people (myself included) started out as seeing Stallman as a well-meaning but wild-eyed idealist -- but eventually noticed that he kept proving to be right. I think that at this point, that Stallman's public persona is only half the problem -- the other half is the narrative "frame" around him. (And yes, Stallman's apparent reluctance or inability to recognize and deal with how his own self-presentation feeds into this frame is a big flaw). |
| gus3 Oct 08, 2011 1:40 PM EDT |
(Douglas Engelbart invented the mouse; Xerox PARC incorporated it into the the spec for their Alto.) |
| Scott_Ruecker Oct 08, 2011 5:53 PM EDT |
I will say this much, I refused (for the most part) to post articles to the LXer newswire about his death because it had nothing to do with FOSS news. That was my choice as E-i-C, I didn't see it as relevant to our readers knowing that it would be all over the regular news anyway. One..or the dozen plus articles that were submitted us were not going to serve our audience and I stand by that decision. I have never had any beef with Steve Jobs personally. I may not like that he took a BSD kernel and made it proprietary, which is one of the major reasons Mac software is so solid now, but that is what the BSD license allows and he took advantage of it..because he could. I may not like it, but he didn't do anything 'wrong'. And whose to say that any of us wouldn't have made the same decision if we were in his place? I found the quote Stallman used distasteful and his comment about "..Jobs' malign influence on people's computing." inaccurate at best. He may not have been a supporter of FOSS, but in my mind he certainly was not an outright adversary like others we could name here. He was a technological innovator in many ways, and like Apple or not there is no denying that. Not being a supporter of Free and Open Source Software doesn't make you inherently evil, it just means your not as cool as you could be. ;-) I re-posted this to http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/32316/ and http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/32314/ |
| SchwenLarson Oct 10, 2011 12:17 AM EDT |
No one has a 100% positive impact on society. None of us do. Not Jobs, not me, not you...no one. However, the man has now passed away and I think it's a good practice to remember people's contributions and not their failures. Angela |
| tracyanne Oct 10, 2011 12:53 AM EDT |
Unfortunately Angela, it's some of his greatest successes that are affecting people negatively. |
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