After following the link through to Martin's blog
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tracyanne Sep 28, 2011 6:06 PM EDT |
I posted the following 2 days ago. It looks like Martin disagrees with me to the point that he won't allow my comments to be posted. quote:: My hope is that our users would stop to fight each other. While our users fight, they demotivate the developers, they undermine efforts to improve the collaboration. There is no need to fight for KDE. ::quote I have never fought for KDE or GNOME or any other Linux desktop Environment. What I and countless other users have fought against is the stupidity of the developers abandoning the desktop, we as users are using, and creating a new desktop that lacks all of the functionality we have come to rely on, and expecting us to be grateful that we are faced with the choice of finding another desktop that hopefully allows us to continue with the work flow we have found is the most efficient for our needs, and have to learn and configure a whole new desktop environment. What I and countless other users are fighting is the arrogance of developers who abandon their users,or expect their users to become beta testers, while the functionality gets built back in.... hopefully. Personally I think you are ignoring the real problem, while systematically dismantling the strawman, that users are fighting each other, you've created, because you don't wish to deal with the real problem. |
| Koriel Sep 28, 2011 7:11 PM EDT |
Probably because you were way OT, his post was not about KDE or Gnome screwing over its users but about KDE vs Gnome and how their developers collaborate or not as the case may be. Now dont get me wrong I loathed the way KDE and Gnome have treated their users and am not a KDE fan boy im an XFCE one but if you had posted OT on my blog, I would of warned you that you were way OT and that if you posted OT again then i would of blocked you the only difference between him and myself would be the courtesy warning. OT is OT ive been blocked for it myself but have learned my lesson, although sometimes I forget, so im glad the Lxer moderation crew are fairly leniant :) |
| tracyanne Sep 28, 2011 7:32 PM EDT |
In what way is a post disagreeing with him OT? |
| patrokov Sep 28, 2011 8:29 PM EDT |
I agree with tracyanne. Martin is engaged in a straw man argument, blaming the users for their "petty disagreements among desktop environments" while ignoring the actual real complaint of users against their OWN desktop environment. Pointing this out is not OT. |
| tuxchick Sep 28, 2011 9:09 PM EDT |
Linus Torvalds made some interesting comments in a recent interview:Quoting: "The code itself is unimportant; the project is only as useful as people actually find it.” http://h30565.www3.hp.com/t5/Feature-Articles/Linus-Torvalds... |
| gus3 Sep 28, 2011 9:23 PM EDT |
The Principle of Least Astonishment, applied to UI's. How many UI paradigms has Windows had? How many has MacOS had? Which is more successful as a UI? |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 28, 2011 10:56 PM EDT |
If KDE4 had a switch labeled "Make it work just like KDE3", I'd use it. |
| tracyanne Sep 28, 2011 11:20 PM EDT |
@bob, I think the KDE3 functionality is pretty much all there (except Dolphin). The point I'm making here is that GNOME and KDE are just as bad as each other in this respect, treating the current needs of the users as unimportant, or less impotant than the code. That the real issue is not users fighting over which is the best desktop, but the devs neglecting the needs of the users, and, as is the case here with Martin (he's a KWin developer) attempting to blame the current problems on the users, and i a manner that is totally spurious. It's quite insulting, that he attempts to lay the blame for developer unhappiness at the feet of the users, when it is the developers who have decided that pretty code in the future is more important than functionality users rely on right now. He seems surprised that users would complain. |
| Koriel Sep 28, 2011 11:37 PM EDT |
Sorry but you are OT, he is talking about kde users slagging gnome users and vice versa, this has nothing to do with the KDE Devs vs KDE users or Gnome Devs vs Gnome users. Thats the way i read it, and i can see from the article comments as well that is how the majority see that article as well. Some folks need to get over this KDE stuff and move on, KDE made it clear they dont give a monkeys about their users so just use something else and forget about them, I know i have. Absolutely no point on dwelling on it as they are not going to change their ways any time soon. |
| tracyanne Sep 28, 2011 11:41 PM EDT |
@koriel,
Quoting:Sorry but you are OT, he is talking about kde users slagging gnome users and vice versa he is indeed. not only that he is making the case that this is what users are most intersted in, and that it is this behaviour that is leading to developer dissatisfaction I disagreed with him pointing out that most, if not all user griping and aguing and complaining ans slagging and sniping has been because the developers are so damned arrogant they have ignored theirs user's basic needs, that any developer dissatisfaction is because they have had to deal with complaints from their own user base. I am very much on topic. There is no real schism. both GNOME and KDE users agree they have been treated badly by the devs. |
| Koriel Sep 29, 2011 12:00 AM EDT |
We will just have to agree to disagree. |
| skelband Sep 29, 2011 12:18 PM EDT |
I read the article and I can sort of see why TA would see what she sees. I think his main ghist is about the animosity between the different desktop camps, but I think he shows a small amount of bias and a secondary message is slipping in, probably by accident. |
| tracyanne Sep 29, 2011 6:51 PM EDT |
Wel, as I'm not the only person, in the context of that blog, to take him to task over the way the devs of both KDE and GNOME have treated their users, it appears he no longer thinks I'm OT . |
| patrokov Sep 29, 2011 8:10 PM EDT |
I haven't seen any Gnome vs KDE fanboyism on LXer in quite a long time. What I DO see all the time now is ex-KDE users angry at KDE devs and soon to ex-Gnome users angry at Gnome devs. |
| Grishnakh Oct 02, 2011 2:57 AM EDT |
@patrokov: I have to agree. I really haven't seen much of the fanboyism in ages, just people either bashing the devs or the DE in general (not that all this bashing is unwarranted; maybe I should call it "criticism" instead as "bashing" seems to imply that it's unwarranted or excessive, and I don't think that's the case, though some devs seem to think that any criticism at all is unwarranted and unnecessary). |
| Fettoosh Oct 02, 2011 10:49 AM EDT |
Quoting:I haven't seen any Gnome vs KDE fanboyism on LXer in quite a long time True and what I also see is that, those who are dissatisfied with Unit/Gnome 3 are now giving KDE 4 another look. |
| tracyanne Oct 02, 2011 6:08 PM EDT |
Quoting:...some devs seem to think that any criticism at all is unwarranted and unnecessary Their primary response to anyone who complains, takes them to task, or in any way argues with the excuses they use, is to blame the user for.... complaining. |
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