Neither...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| JaseP Jun 30, 2011 3:34 PM EDT |
Neither,... 3rd choice please. |
| gus3 Jun 30, 2011 3:36 PM EDT |
Textbook example of a "false dichotomy". |
| skelband Jun 30, 2011 4:31 PM EDT |
Beat me to it. The question does make some rather big assumptions :D |
| albinard Jun 30, 2011 5:48 PM EDT |
My favorite quotation from the first part of the article: Canonical’s Neil Patel in support of Unity. “I believe it has helped in producing a user experience that is very easy to get to grips with, which looks great, but also offers a user experience that doesn’t alienate power users.” Doesn't alienate? Whom did he ask about that? A more comprehensively alienated single group would be hard to find! |
| tracyanne Jun 30, 2011 6:28 PM EDT |
I think you could count on the fingers of one hand the power users that aren't alienated. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jul 01, 2011 5:03 PM EDT |
I wish Ubuntu had stuck with GNOME and offered a Unity spin -- Unibuntu? -- for a few cycles so they could work the bugs out and do some substantial development without foisting this on unsuspecting (or very suspecting) users. |
| BernardSwiss Jul 01, 2011 8:19 PM EDT |
I'm really curious how Debian is going to deal with this, when time for the next release comes around... |
| Steven_Rosenber Jul 03, 2011 2:45 AM EDT |
Debian is working now on packaging GNOME 3, and I expect that the next stable release will feature it as the default desktop. You can run GNOME 3 in Debian Testing or Sid now, but you must use the Experimental archive http://raphaelhertzog.com/2011/06/16/installing-gnome-3-on-d... I haven't heard anything about Unity being packaged for Debian, but I expect that it will happen at some point. It's not unheard of for Ubuntu-derived packages to appear in Debian. For instance, the Ubuntu Software Center appears in Debian as just "Software Center." |
| hkwint Jul 03, 2011 8:53 AM EDT |
TA & Albinard: Yeah, it's a real shame they don't do an online survey or so and publish the results out in the open. Or if they're shifting from 'current Linux users' to 'Windows refugees', which on its own would be valid and an OK thing to do if they wish so, then they should say it as well. Oh, nevermind, I'm preaching to the choir again I think. Real sad though. 11.04 is the first Ubuntu which works out of the box for me, and doesn't mess up my video card, like all other Ubuntu's / Fedora's I've tried (starting at 2005 or something). And now, in the near feature, even booting from USB will work "out of the box" for non-Ubuntu Linux users, like me. I really was contemplating switching over from Gentoo to Natty, but reading all concerns, I'm not so sure about it anymore. |
| dinotrac Jul 03, 2011 9:20 AM EDT |
Interesting. Politics is another major interest of mine, and the lessons here are directly applicable. You see it all the time in conversation: If you say the Democrats are hosing things up, the response will be "You think the Republicans would be better?" If you say the Republicans are hosing things up, the response will be "You think the Democrats would be better?" Nobody has to ask whether they're doing well, just point fingers the other way and look perplexed after the next round of elections. Free software world is so much better. We get to vote all the time. Not only can we vote for 3rd (xfce), 4th(fluxbox), 5th(e), and even radical extreme parties (ratpoison) we can actually get them elected, if only for our own locality. Too many people try to make too many things into either/or in this world. Either you see that or you don't. |
| helios Jul 03, 2011 12:08 PM EDT |
dino, I was thinking about the parallels between politics and certain FOSS projects myself. Given the fact that we do have choices outside of our preferred DE/Window Manager and completely ignoring it for convenience, within projects such as Gnome and KDE, it pretty much remains the masses complain and nod their heads in agreement in unison while those who can do something about it concentrate on raising funds for the next election. Sure it's not a perfect match but I can't help but see the parallels. Yeah we can vote someone out but we rarely do,,, I'm seeing too many incumbents with roots anchoring their a$$es to their legislative seats. |
| dinotrac Jul 03, 2011 1:37 PM EDT |
@helios -- I've slowly been evolving into an "other" voter, except for local offices where more of the folks actually seem to pay attention. More and more I care less and less about parties and platforms and alleged non-chicken right or left "wings" and more about answering the simple question: has the person (party) in office/charge earned the right to stay there or do we need to give somebody new a chance. It's easier that way. |
| Fettoosh Jul 03, 2011 2:15 PM EDT |
Quoting: has the person (party) in office/charge earned the right to stay there or do we need to give somebody new a chance. Recently, I have been in favor of replacing the incumbent hoping for better than either evil. The sad thing is, hope didn't do much good. |
| dinotrac Jul 03, 2011 2:17 PM EDT |
@fettoosh - My suspicion is that it needs repetition. First time around, politicians think you are endorsing the crap they say. After a while, somebody's going to wonder what it takes to hold on to a seat. |
| helios Jul 03, 2011 3:16 PM EDT |
I think political office should have all the perks of jury duty. Holding political office should not be a pathway to wealth. it should suck so bad that the thought of re-election becomes impossible. I'm hanging with dino on this. The party platforms have boarded doomed riders IMO... Which leads me to wonder at this moment, how many top Gnome or KDE devs might be feeling the pressure? Canonical, probably none due the the fact they are insulated by Shuttleworth. |
| Fettoosh Jul 03, 2011 4:00 PM EDT |
Quoting:My suspicion is that it needs repetition. I might as well, nothing else is working. Quoting:Which leads me to wonder at this moment, how many top Gnome or KDE devs might be feeling the pressure? I don't think it is the same or even similar. Nothing is the same or similar to the political situation in the US. Which begs the question, suppose the debt ceiling didn't get raised, then what? Who is in charge? how are things going to function? Is chaos going to rule? There is no such thing in Open Source. Political office (Used to be called Public Office & Public Servant in good old days) is now something to strive for and become rich from. There isn't such thing in Open Source Political office brings tons of donations (hehmm), nothing like it in Open Source Many other dissimilarities but those couple points are enough. |
| tracyanne Jul 03, 2011 6:52 PM EDT |
@hkwint if Ubuntu 11.04 works for you then maybe you should try Linux Mint 11. |
| helios Jul 04, 2011 12:42 AM EDT |
Fettoosh - It was simply thrown in to give the impression I was on topic and not violating TOS...like starting a political argument. Like I ever worried about it before. :-0 |
| jdixon Jul 04, 2011 1:17 AM EDT |
> Which begs the question, suppose the debt ceiling didn't get raised, then what? Then, since there won't be enough money to pay all the bills, the administration will decide which bills get paid and which don't. The metric used to make that determination will be very simple one: Which cuts make the opposition look the worst? That would be true no matter which party was in office. Unless of course the administration simply ignores the law, which some have been arguing they should do. It's not like that would be the first time. Hmm. FOSS tie in? Well, I guess you could argue that the KDE4 and Gnome3 development processes and the current budget process have a lot in common. |
| scan2006 Jul 04, 2011 9:13 AM EDT |
I'm loving Gnome 3 not sure why everyone is so up in arms about it, you can always use the fallback mode. I find gnome-shell very fast, easy and intuitive to get around. I mostly use k/b shortcuts for most of the programs I want to launch, so the way the menu/panel is set up is great for those apps that I don't have a bind for, it is quick and fast to find the programs I want to launch since it is organized like it was in the old menu system, if I don't just scroll down to in the "All" postion. Then the desktops are great and I love to be able to use my middle mouse button and launch a new program to a new desktop and then it automagically opens a another new desktop to use. I also like the window tiling. Just wait till more tools come out for more control without having to dig into a css file, it will become even better. |
| Fettoosh Jul 04, 2011 10:26 AM EDT |
Quoting:the administration will decide which bills get paid and which don't Today is Freedom day in the US and I guess we are entitled to take the liberty and talk a little politics as long as we keep it within the TOS. Happy Holiday to all. @jdixon Thanks for the insight. So, the Administration can do whatever they want within the current budget ceiling! Not really a solution, but rather makes things uglier. In the time they spent arguing, they could have been forced (by law) to resign and we elect a fresh whole new crew. Not that this will guarantee better ones but at least there could be some hope. Why do we have to wait til election time? Why can't we have national referendum on certain issues? .The similarity I see between Gnome/KDE and Gov. is "I am in charge and I will do what I want" |
| dinotrac Jul 04, 2011 11:43 AM EDT |
@fettoosh -- @"I am in charge and I will do what I want" Bingo. |
| hkwint Jul 04, 2011 4:11 PM EDT |
TA: Thanks, probably stupid but I hadn't considered it before. Not sure if I like Gnome though, so I'm trying to forget it's Gnome (meaning trying to forget all my prejudices) and will be trying. Hope it works well in VirtualBox, as I'm not yet ready to do a full distro-switch... |
| tracyanne Jul 04, 2011 5:43 PM EDT |
@ scan2006Quoting:I'm loving Gnome 3 not sure why everyone is so up in arms about it, you can always use the fallback mode. For myself, because it doesn't deliver what I need, even in fallback mode. Quoting:I find gnome-shell very fast, easy and intuitive to get around. You see I don't. Additionally the virtual desktop previews show only 1 of my Monitors, not both, which means I can't rely on the previews to determine which desktop I need. Also the desktop previews are not fixed, so I lose track of where I am, I use nine virtual desktops in a 3 by 3 grid. I know exactly where my applications are, I don't need to search for them. Quoting:I mostly use k/b shortcuts for most of the programs I want to launch, I don't. I never have and I dislike having to remember a bunch of k/b short cuts. My desktop is setup so I can use a mouse for all desktop navigation. I might point out here that people with arthritis or other physical conditions that make using keyboard shortcuts [difficult] are not going to like this dependence on kb shortcuts, and the menu system being as convoluted as it is won't help either. Quoting:Then the desktops are great and I love to be able to use my middle mouse button and launch a new program to a new desktop and then it automagically opens a another new desktop to use. I dislike that. I dislike that the virtual desktop is destroyed when you move the last window application from it. I dislike that the vitual desktops shuffle around (aren't fixed). Quoting: I also like the window tiling. Just wait till more tools come out for more control without having to dig into a css file, it will become even better. I doubt it. |
| BernardSwiss Jul 04, 2011 7:24 PM EDT |
Quoting:Quoting:I'm loving Gnome 3 not sure why everyone is so up in arms about it, you can always use the fallback mode. Quoting: For myself, because it doesn't deliver what I need, even in fallback mode. Does anybody have a firm grasp on whether either "fallback mode" is even intended (ie. "officially declared") to remain available for the foreseeable future -- let alone how reliable that will be? I haven't been paying close attention, but my impression is that at least one of these two projects (Gnome3 and/or Ubuntu-Unity) is clearly planning for "fallback mode" to be a distinctly short-lived option. |
| skelband Jul 04, 2011 7:41 PM EDT |
@BernardSwiss "....to be a distinctly short-lived option." That was my impression. |
| skelband Jul 04, 2011 7:49 PM EDT |
Although very slightly off-topic, it is true that very slight changes to a UI experience can have a devastating effect on the usability of it for a single user when they are used to a particular work pattern. I have recently had the misfortune to find that CTRL-Tab in Visual C++ - Express Edition is now broken. For many years it was the standard for CTRL-Tab (in Windows) to cycle you through the tabs in a Window. CTRL-Tab to the right, SHIFT-CTRL-Tab to the left. CTRL-Tab now takes you to a menu presented in what appears to be a random order, and that order changes everytime you change a tab selection! This is appallingly bad. If you wish to use the shortcut to get the next tab on the right, you have to search for it in a pop-up list. It makes it entirely useless for me. It is now quicker to use the mouse. So what on earth was the point of changing it? This is kind of the point of why Unity and Gnome Shell are useless for development users. We are high performance users with a well defined work pattern that works well for us. We tend to use a combination of mouse and key shortcuts. We don't have time to read pop-up windows. Key gestures should be predictable and consistent. |
| tracyanne Jul 04, 2011 7:56 PM EDT |
@skelband. While it's true that, shall we call them power users, have their own peculular work patterns, the older desktops GNOME2,KDE3 enabled one to configure the desktop easily to enable the work pattern. What the new desktops, and especially Unity and GNOME3 seem to be doing is disabling that configurability. As things stand I can can configure a Windows desktop much closer to my preferred work pattern than either of Unity or GNOME 3. The thing about Unity and GNOME3 and to a lesser extent KDE4, is I can't see that I will ever get to a point where I can have "My" desktop back, at least not without the ability to completely rebuild the UI. |
| scan2006 Jul 04, 2011 9:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:The thing about Unity and GNOME3 and to a lesser extent KDE4, is I can't see that I will ever get to a point where I can have "My" desktop back, at least not without the ability to completely rebuild the UI.What is the difference that you find with fall back mode and gnome 2.x? only thing I can I can tell is the 'system' menu. I always loved fluxbox you made your own shortcuts or symbolic links to everything and or alias in your bashrc file. You will become a better user on all machines and won't be crippled by a gui. But for being a modern gui this one is far more to my liking then any other newer D/E. It does have a couple things you need to add/do when you first install but there are in the repositories and are very easy to do. This is the first release of the new interface and tools will be added, just as they were added with gnome 2.x over time. (just crazy to think they won't or 3rd party apps to do it, with it being css and all) I love the fact that the desktops are dynamic I don't have to have a crazy number of desktops predetermined before I start, but if you want your 3x3 config you can still use it and see all your apps just use the fallback that you love. |
| tracyanne Jul 04, 2011 9:44 PM EDT |
Quoting:What is the difference that you find with fall back mode and gnome 2.x? only thing I can I can tell is the 'system' menu. Well for one thing I can't move or make hide the d@mn top panel, which also doesn't work well with my multi monitor set up. |
| scan2006 Jul 04, 2011 9:45 PM EDT |
Click on the image a couple times to see it in full size.
My desktop in fallback mode with the 3x3 window running dual monitors (yeah they are different sizes I prefer to use 2 computers with synergy sharing the keyboard and mouse then dual monitors but I will keep it this way and have all 3 monitors on 2 computers sharing the same k/b & mouse for a while until I need the space on my desk back. |
| tracyanne Jul 04, 2011 10:21 PM EDT |
and this is my multiple monitor set up. Click on the image for a larger view. As you can see the monitors are stacked one above the other. I'm using Linux Mint, but not the Mint Menu, instead the GNOME Menu, I don't give a rats that System menu has been removed on GNOME 3, that doesn't bother me I often use that styoe of menu anyway. The bottom panel auto hides when not in use, I've replaced the GNOME Window List with the DockbarX panel applet for multiple previews. There are no desktop icons. Mouse to rH side of screen + left mouse click reveals all windows on current desktop. Mouse to RH side of screen + right mouse click reveals all windows on current monitor. Mouse to rh side of screen + middle button click shows all open windows on all desktops Mouse to left side + left mouse click reveals all desktops. Mouse to bottom reveals bottom panel mouse over DockbarX icons reveals all windows of all instances of given application. click on the preview takes you to the desktop where that instance of the application is running. I'm running Windows on Virtual box and have seamless integration between Windows and Linux. It's taken me nearly 10 years and several desktop UIs to arrive where I am. I was almost there on KDE3.5.x, then the KDE4 folks decided I needed a semantic desktop. Thankfully with GNOME 2.x and Compiz I was able finally get there. Now it seems the GNOME folks have decided I need a different sort of desktop again. Now, if or when GNOME 3 can give me all of that exactly as I currently have it, and it looks like the Linux Mint folks may be able to deliver, I'll be happy with GNOME 3. I'm currently looking at XFce, but it too has it's short commings, mostly in the default applications area. |
| scan2006 Jul 04, 2011 11:01 PM EDT |
Looks like you want KDE 4.x you can exactly match that Desktop layout and mouse movement with it, just install KDE version of Mint. Yeah, I hate the stock Mint panel in gnome as well. I quit running Windows and its programs a long time ago, but it is nice how easy it is to install in a VM. I did the same for a computer I set up for my father years ago, so he could still use the programs that he was used to, had the gnome bar up top and the xp menu on the bottom. |
| tracyanne Jul 04, 2011 11:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:Looks like you want KDE 4.x you can exactly match that Desktop layout and mouse movement with it, just install KDE version of Mint. Tried it. Doesn't work for me. |
| Fettoosh Jul 04, 2011 11:56 PM EDT |
@TA, Since nothing stays the same, nothing is going to keep you happy but your own Distro. |
| tracyanne Jul 05, 2011 1:04 AM EDT |
@Fettoosh It may yet come to that. However I'm not asking for things to stay the same. If I had wanted that I would not have configured my desktop as it is. What I am asking for is for a desktop that I can work with so I can work more efficiently, not one where I'm expected to change to suit some arbitrary developer's idea of how I should be working. What I'm asking for is that FOSS UI developers keep the d@mn desktop flexible, so it doesn't have to stay the same. So far the developers of all the new UIs have thrown out everything that was good about the UI, replaced it with something inflexible and cumbersome, and labeled it as great. I'll wait until the Linux Mint people show us what they can do with GNOME 3. |
| jimbauwens Jul 05, 2011 4:55 AM EDT |
Or its time for a totally new shell for gnome, for the people that want to be productive. I've been thinking for some time to start on one, but I just don't have the time right now. And I'm also wondering if I switch to E instead. |
| helios Jul 05, 2011 9:02 AM EDT |
What I am asking for is for a desktop that I can work with so I can work more efficiently, not one where I'm expected to change to suit some arbitrary developer's idea of how I should be working. That pretty much sums up the entire kerfuffle with clarity and efficiency. Somehow, I am picturing all of this as an art exhibit, where we stand around commenting on our impressions and ideas about what is hanging on the wall. Maybe the Devs involved are trying to create art instead of a desktop. It just seems that way to me. |
| ComputerBob Jul 05, 2011 11:44 AM EDT |
tracyanne,
The image that you posted above is apparently too wide for this forum's format, and is making every comment in this thread unreadable for me. I had to add hard returns to this message's lines, to make them readable. |
| Fettoosh Jul 05, 2011 2:36 PM EDT |
Quoting:tracyanne, The image that you posted above is apparently too wide for this This is happening more and more recently and the way I have been able to read the text is to Ctlr- multiple times in Chrome/FIreFox until it is visible. It gets so small but still able to read it. I think the table column needs to be set to not exceed a certain width and to wrap text instead when it exceeds the limit. Or change it it to <div> tag with auto scroll. I am not sure who handles that. |
| Fettoosh Jul 05, 2011 2:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:tracyanne, The image that you posted above is apparently too wide for this One other option to read the text is, when using Chrome, right click on picture element, then select inspect element, in the window that comes up, right click on the highlighted element and delete it. You may have to delete multiple picture if they exist. Chrome will refresh the page automatically and if you refresh (Ctrl R) you will get the original display. Or simply, turn off images auto-loading |
| tracyanne Jul 05, 2011 6:26 PM EDT |
@ComputerBob, is that better bob |
| Fettoosh Jul 05, 2011 7:29 PM EDT |
Quoting: is that better bob Now it is scan2006's turn to fix the image. |
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