they used to get mad...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tuxchick Jun 26, 2011 12:42 AM EDT |
...when I said things like "Because we’re not designing a desktop for people " in jest. And now it has come true. |
| gus3 Jun 26, 2011 6:33 AM EDT |
So are you registered as a for-prophetess enterprise? |
| dinotrac Jun 26, 2011 7:46 AM EDT |
Hmmm. People used to get mad at me when I said one advantage of proprietary development is the ability to have grown-ups paying a**hat developers to do the right thing instead of what they da**ed well pleased. Still mad at me? |
| ComputerBob Jun 26, 2011 8:52 AM EDT |
Linux is all about choice. Unfortunately, more and more, the only choice is "my* way or the highway." * the developers' |
| dinotrac Jun 26, 2011 9:31 AM EDT |
@CB -- Yup. There's always been a little bit of that, and it's not completely unhealthy. What seems new is that the narrow-minded, ego-inflated little brats are able to take over major projects relied upon by many users instead of throwing their own spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. |
| helios Jun 26, 2011 10:06 AM EDT |
the narrow-minded, ego-inflated little brats are able to take over major projects relied upon by many users instead of throwing their own spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. Ah, I see you've attended a HeliOS directors meeting... And it was Ramen...we can't afford spaghetti. I'm trying hard not to see this as KDE 4.0 part deux. Unfortunately, it's difficult not to see it any other way. I think the Gnome team caught a break when fate played its hand and timed the unleashing of Unity in the same time frame as Gnome 3. This tended to diffuse the full force blunt trauma that KDE suffered...to a point anyway. I used Gnome 3 long enough to know it was a time-waster for me. Now, the "extensions" that are coming out seem to allow the user to add features they miss from x2. Maybe that's what the G3 team planned all along. Maybe they plan to pick and choose the best and implement them in future releases. Or maybe that's just our Linuxphere adapting to a new environment... Either way, we're watching an evolution....or a species split at the very least. My best hope is that Gnome will evolve into a better way to interface my computer but I learned a hard lesson about counting on "hope and change". I remain cautiously pessimistic. |
| dinotrac Jun 26, 2011 12:04 PM EDT |
>I remain cautiously pessimistic. A healthy attitude, to say the least. I wonder, though, when did the value of free software -- the ability to add to it if it doesn't suit your purpose, fork it into something new, etc -- the freedom -- devolve into an excuse for "Screw you and the horse you rode in on?" |
| tuxchick Jun 26, 2011 1:23 PM EDT |
Quoting:So are you registered as a for-prophetess enterprise? Hey....why not? Everyone else gets rich for gasbagging! I can gasbag! The only missing piece is getting paid for it. |
| helios Jun 26, 2011 2:44 PM EDT |
but Dino...it's an open source horse of course..... |
| ComputerBob Jun 26, 2011 3:09 PM EDT |
... and no one can talk to a horse, of course... that is, of course, unless the horse is the famous Mr. Ed. |
| ComputerBob Jun 26, 2011 3:14 PM EDT |
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to redevelop it. |
| Fettoosh Jun 26, 2011 3:20 PM EDT |
Quoting:There's always been a little bit of that, and it's not completely unhealthy. Right you are Dino. Sometimes there are too many complainers among us no matter which way it is done. Quoting:the narrow-minded, ego-inflated little brats are able to take over major projects relied upon by many users instead of throwing their own spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks. @Dino, If that is what you accuse the KDE developers of, I believe you will forgive them when you try KDE 4.6.4 or 4.7 RC1. I know you are kind of hard to forgive, :) but KDE4 is that good now. |
| ComputerBob Jun 26, 2011 3:46 PM EDT |
Quoting:I believe you will forgive them when you try KDE 4.6.4 or 4.7 RC1. I know you are kind of hard to forgive, :) but KDE4 is that good now.How many hundred times have we all seen that same comment, after every single KDE release since around KDE 4.1? |
| gus3 Jun 26, 2011 3:58 PM EDT |
Drat it, CB, you beat me to the punch. By about an hour and fifteen minutes, but still... |
| Fettoosh Jun 26, 2011 4:02 PM EDT |
Quoting:How many hundred times have we all seen that same comment ... You are going to see it every time someone bashes KDE and every time KDE 4 gets more features and enhancements. Sorry if it bothers you, but I think others are being unfair and they need to be reminded? |
| dinotrac Jun 26, 2011 5:19 PM EDT |
In fairness, all, I did not single out KDE. Turns out they were correct about being on the leading edge. Now I think I'll go kill myself. Or, at least, shake my head and glower disapprovingly. |
| tuxchick Jun 26, 2011 5:23 PM EDT |
Quoting: People used to get mad at me when I said one advantage of proprietary development is the ability to have grown-ups paying a**hat developers to do the right thing instead of what they da**ed well pleased. Nah, being mad at you is like kicking kittens. There are a sizable number of so-called Linux devs who are uninterested in dull things like discipline, skill building, and best practices. Their idea of coding is to write stuff until they get bored with it and then move on, regardless of how buggy or incomplete it is. I guess the code fairies are supposed to clean up their messes. I suppose it's a predictable result of an anyone-can-play arena where the useless and the excellent have equal access. As humans are oft wont to do, a complex and useful concept has been reduced to a dumb inaccurate slogan: "Developers scratch their own itches", which has become an excuse for all manner of laziness and incompetence. But that's not what ESR said or meant. Like most of the old Unix/Linux geekbeards, he had an academic background all full of strange things like knowledge, skills, and study. http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral... Some key quotes: Quoting: 1. Every good work of software starts by scratching a developer's personal itch. For creating anything useful that other people use, whether it's software, books, furniture, tools, anything at all, the itch has to spring from actually caring about the user experience and wanting to make it better. I expect these strange words will upset those who think software development is purely ego-driven. |
| dinotrac Jun 26, 2011 5:30 PM EDT |
>I expect these strange words will upset those who think software development is purely ego-driven. I think you left out a word after "think". Not sure exactly what it is, but competent, professional, and admirable all come to mind. |
| BernardSwiss Jun 26, 2011 5:41 PM EDT |
Deliberately make the ONLY practical means to change the configuration a FOSS/GNU Linux Desktop be to use a (3rd-party?) special "Tweak" utility, or otherwise require writing 3rd-party "extensions"? Seriously ??? On another Linux news-aggregation site that I've been known to frequent, a certain curmudgeon is rather prone to lambaste ... ahem... certain developers, for supposedly believing the only rational and sensible path forward is to make things work in Linux the same way as in Windows, because that's how it's done in Windows -- and I am finally beginning to realize that he's not only basically right, but that he likely isn't even exaggerating! |
| tracyanne Jun 26, 2011 6:57 PM EDT |
Quoting: Quoting:I believe you will forgive them when you try KDE 4.6.4 or 4.7 RC1. I know you are kind of hard to forgive, :) but KDE4 is that good now. Enough times that I no longer bother. KDE4 may have become the greatest thing since sliced bread, although I doubt it, but I simply no longer bother testing it. |
| jdixon Jun 26, 2011 10:50 PM EDT |
> You are going to see it every time someone bashes KDE and every time KDE 4 gets more features and enhancements. And it'll still be just as true as it ever was. |
| Fettoosh Jun 27, 2011 8:49 AM EDT |
Quoting:KDE4 may have become the greatest thing since sliced bread, although I doubt it, but I simply no longer bother testing it. And to a fast many of users, including myself obviously, KDE4 is the best desktop ever built no matter what anyone else says. |
| MALsPa Jun 27, 2011 9:45 AM EDT |
>You are going to see it every time someone bashes KDE and every time KDE 4 gets more features and enhancements. Aw, why bother? "Kick the devs" is an easy game to play, isn't it? It never stops. KDE4 is my favorite DE now. I enjoy using it, and I think it's great. I chuckle when I read things like this: >How many hundred times have we all seen that same comment, after every single KDE release since around KDE 4.1? Folks who use KDE4 have been seeing it getting better and better. I'm sure it sounds like a tired, old refrain, and it doesn't matter how many times KDE4 users say it, because the folks who don't want to like it or use it aren't gonna change their minds about it. Oh, well. Use whatever makes you happy. I do, and I'm sure the rest of you do, too. |
| Fettoosh Jun 27, 2011 10:11 AM EDT |
Quoting:Aw, why bother? It makes you chuckle, and I say it is fun too. |
| azerthoth Jun 27, 2011 10:32 AM EDT |
hmm, KDE4.6.4 you say. I was a KDE user up until about 6 months ago when serious regressions started making their way in. I keep it installed hoping that I will be able to go back at some point. I have 4.6.4 installed and it is utter extruded used food. I'm not going to smash it as I defended it, I'm just going to keep a roll of toilet paper and can of febreeze handy for when others feel the need to do so. |
| Fettoosh Jun 27, 2011 11:03 AM EDT |
Some people need to get over themselves and stop this desperate plea for attention. I won't stoop to this level and I refrain due to the TOS. |
| dinotrac Jun 27, 2011 11:39 AM EDT |
@fettoosh - I'm torn about KE4, especially as I used KDE as my primary desktop for more than 10 years before giving it up. I see more and more that the KDE technology is rounding into shape. That's a good thing, and I'm glad that lots of people are able to enjoy using it. What I can't figure out is how to go about signaling "all clear" -- that it's safe to try out the software and consider returning to KDE for my desktop. That is strictly a matter of trusting the developers. I don't know how to determine that it's safe to do that. |
| tuxchick Jun 27, 2011 1:17 PM EDT |
I'm looking at KDE 4.6 in Natty, and unsurprisingly it is still a bloated, disorganized mess of non-functional eye-candy, and insanely escalated levels of self-dependencies. Which means that KDE apps are further away than ever from portability and require hundreds of megabytes of KDE dependencies such as kdepim, which has inserted its tentacles into everything whether it makes sense or not, kdebase, and kde-runtime. But I'm not worried, because everything will be better in the next release. Just like in all previous releases! So we have Gnome with no functionality, and KDE4 with no practical functionality. Yay, choice is awesome! Fortunately there are other choices, such as XFCE, LXDE, and the Mac. |
| jdixon Jun 27, 2011 1:27 PM EDT |
> What I can't figure out is how to go about signaling "all clear" -- that it's safe to try out the software and consider returning to KDE for my desktop. Just set up a virtual machine (you can use the OSE version of Virtualbox to do so), install a newer KDE distro and try it out, Dino. t's not like it costs anything. :) Unfortunately, the latest version of Slackware seems to still be using 4.5.5, so it's probably not a good choice. |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 27, 2011 1:30 PM EDT |
az,Quoting:I have 4.6.4 installed and it is utter extruded used food. I truely envy your way with words, it makes the second paragraph superfluous. YBT |
| dinotrac Jun 27, 2011 1:42 PM EDT |
@jdixon - You misunderstand. The software is not the problem. That's easy to figure out with a virtual machine, or another, less critical box than my workstation. I do that all the time. The question is about the developers, not the software. |
| Fettoosh Jun 27, 2011 2:04 PM EDT |
Quoting:What I can't figure out is how to go about signaling "all clear" -- that it's safe to try out the software and consider returning to KDE for my desktop. @Dino, I fully understand where you are coming from and the concerns you have. Before I continue, let me iterate that, I am not trying to convince anyone to use KDE4 because I fully understand that, users are people who have different preferences, needs, requirements, likes and dislikes. They are mature (computer-wise at least) enough to make the selection that is best for them. Now that out of the way, and I believe I know you enough Dino that you do appreciate KDE4 efforts and I understand why you can't try KDE again. But don't you think the developers deserve a break for what they have accomplished? You don't have to use KDE if it isn't for you or doesn't meet your needs or requirements, but try it at least to recognize the good things they have done. The KDE team did make procedural mistakes, we all know that and they even acknowledge that on occasions. But the technical excellence they have shown and continue to offer is astounding. Personally, I consider those errors to be growing pains. Here we are posting about Unity & Gnome Shell 3 and griping about how they abandoned the classical desktop. Shouldn't we be a little patient/cautious and wait to see what and how the end product is going to be? KDE experience should have taught us something else besides the mistakes that were done. It should have taught us to wait and see and not to jump the gun as being done to Unity & Gnome Shell 3. KDE Is offering, not only an advanced classical desktop, but a Netbook/tablet interface and a new one coming out for phone devices. In the future, who knows what else is coming down the pipe. It might be good or bad, but why worry about it now? Instead of applauding their efforts and encouraging their commitment, some are bashing them for something that has long been gone. Why don't we wait and see what Unity & Gnome Shell is going to be before we chastise them? They might end up with similar capabilities where users can pick and chose any one of multiple interfaces and dependent on the device in use without having to reboot or re-login. My whole gripe is about the continued bashing of KDE even after it reached a whole new level of sophistication and elegance. It just doesn't make sense to me when some FOSS supporters bash the team instead of offering encouragement, which they certainly deserve for what they have accomplished so far. I believe we should be talking about their accomplishments instead and to help them with how to take in into the next level. |
| tuxchick Jun 27, 2011 2:15 PM EDT |
Say, now I know why Fettoosh sounds so familiar-- Blake Stowell, is that you? |
| jdixon Jun 27, 2011 2:22 PM EDT |
> The question is about the developers, not the software. Oh. I should have realized that's what you meant, since it's the salient point for me too. I agree, that's not easy to determine, if it's even possible. |
| Fettoosh Jun 27, 2011 2:22 PM EDT |
Quoting:The question is about the developers, not the software. @Dino, You are not the only one who has issues with developers, see this link. I think it will shed some light. http://dot.kde.org/2011/06/25/kde-ships-first-47-release-can... We need to remember that they are FOSS developers. They come in with different personalities, kinds, and sizes, but they are also Free & free. |
| jdixon Jun 27, 2011 2:25 PM EDT |
> But don't you think the developers deserve a break for what they have accomplished? In a word, no. But re-read Dino's comment to me and you may begin to understand why. It's not an issue with the software. |
| Fettoosh Jun 27, 2011 2:31 PM EDT |
Quoting:Say, now I know why Fettoosh sounds so familiar-- Blake Stowell, is that you? Who the heck is he? No, that is not him. Quoting: I just googled: Wikipedia @TC Are you out of your mind? if that who you are thinking of, now I am outraged. :) |
| dinotrac Jun 27, 2011 2:50 PM EDT |
@fettoosh: Thank you for the link. It answered my question quite nicely, at least for now. My workstation is critical to my ability to make a living, so I can't be too careful. Based on that thread and in conjunction with past communications, the answer would seem to be, "not yet". |
| azerthoth Jun 27, 2011 3:15 PM EDT |
Quoting: Some people need to get over themselves and stop this desperate plea for attention. good advice |
| Fettoosh Jun 27, 2011 3:23 PM EDT |
Quoting:... the answer would seem to be, "not yet". I definitely would do the same if I was in the same situation. |
| skelband Jun 27, 2011 4:01 PM EDT |
The thing is, AFAICS, Gnome 2 is the best thing for types like us. We really need the Gnome 2 DE to continue living, then I would be perfectly happy. I just like it and I want to keep it. Like some others above, I used to be a KDE 3.5 user and loved it. KDE 4 killed it for me. It was a bug-riddled resource hog and I've not looked at it since. Perhaps I should look again. |
| azerthoth Jun 27, 2011 4:33 PM EDT |
It was doing really well up until 4.5.2 when the regressions started filtering in. It finally chased me to XFCE4 for full time use. |
| herzeleid Jun 27, 2011 5:14 PM EDT |
When I left kde for gnome in 2008 I figured it was for good. I've checked back with kde over the years and always found it to be inferior to the kde 3.5 which they replaced. I have been looking at kde 4.6 in kubuntu and to my surprise it's not that bad. I'm thinking that by kde 5, it could well be a viable choice. |
| Koriel Jun 27, 2011 5:48 PM EDT |
I used to be a full time KDE 3.5 user but im afraid my major problem with KDE4 is its resource usage it is way to high.
Now I love the KDE4 user interface have absolutely no useability problems with it even the cashew doesn't annoy me but until they sort out resource usage especially memory then I will stick with XFCE 4.8 which uses ram sparingly runs fast and has most of the features I need in fact the only thing I miss is digiKam. |
| cr Jun 27, 2011 6:33 PM EDT |
Perhaps it comes down to something as fundamental as human
nature. Developers want to develop. They want to explore new concepts, new territories, new angles on enduring challenges. Last year's best-approximation is last year's achievement; now it's this year's bar to surmount. They want the heady free feeling of revolution; why not, in FOSS that's mostly what they're paid in, not dollars. Users want the best they can get hold of, when they're selecting what they're going to use, and then they want it to Just Work. No new surprises beyond familiar foibles with familiar workarounds, no wearouts, no deprecations or life-buys. Oh, and no new holes, either, which does mean backports and security fixes to an otherwise stable codebase. It ain't nostalgia, it's practicality, but to adventurous devs it's booooriiing.. In which case, Trinity points the way. Dev teams declare end-of-interest and hand the codebase over to maintenance teams in an orderly transition with lots of contact for answering corner-behavior questions and fleshing out sketchy documentation. The KDE devs are deep into KDE4, but, last I heard, they're helping the Trinity devs pull together an LTS version of KDE3, after which the KDE devs can dive fully into the new game without guilt. Maybe the Gtk/Gnome side needs the same kind of fork-to-maintenance. Maybe enough commercial interests will even find that it makes good business sense to pay out some support for such maintenance teams, so they have long-term-stable APIs to integrate against in their own stuff and their own user manuals. |
| tuxchick Jun 27, 2011 7:26 PM EDT |
Many of the Gnome and KDE devs are paid. Not that volunteering should mean shoddy and undependable. (The economics of FOSS are all messed up anyway, a good topic for another day.) |
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