Madness?
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Koriel Jun 23, 2011 4:03 PM EDT |
I use synaptic a lot, especially the Lock Versions feature. Im a Vmware user and it can be a real pain in the butt if the kernel gets upgraded and Vmware haven't yet issued a patch for the latest & greatest kernel so the first thing you do is lock the kernels to a specific version so it never gets upgraded. Im begining to think that Ubuntu are seriously going out of their way to pi** people off. Thank the deity's that I use a Debian based distro now. |
| dinotrac Jun 23, 2011 4:14 PM EDT |
Synaptic is one of the best pieces of free software out there when measured in straightforward ability to perform its chosen mission. Not fancy and frilly, but darned useful. |
| Koriel Jun 23, 2011 4:20 PM EDT |
@dino Agreed. |
| skelband Jun 23, 2011 4:26 PM EDT |
It's been the default in Maverick to use the Software Centre when you double-click on a DEB file for a while now whereas it was Synaptic. As a "advanced user" I find this behaviour annoying and change it. I can see why they are doing it in the context of their other changes, but that still doesn't make it the right thing for me. |
| jdixon Jun 23, 2011 5:01 PM EDT |
Software center, as of 10.04 at least, still doesn't recognize the system proxy settings and doesn't allow proxy settings itself. Synaptic does allow for proxy settings, including an authorization username and password. |
| skelband Jun 23, 2011 5:30 PM EDT |
Actually, I tell a lie, it used to call up gdebi for DEB files, not Synaptic. |
| tracyanne Jun 23, 2011 6:13 PM EDT |
Storm in a teacup |
| skelband Jun 23, 2011 6:18 PM EDT |
@tc: "Storm in a teacup" Yeah, but you know how we like to bitch about stuff. :P |
| tracyanne Jun 23, 2011 6:40 PM EDT |
Oi!, it was't TC it was TA wot rote that. |
| skelband Jun 23, 2011 6:55 PM EDT |
@ta: Sorry slip of the keyboard! :D |
| helios Jun 23, 2011 10:00 PM EDT |
Well, for some it might not be a big deal but HeliOS relies heavily upon Apt Cacher for doing our installations and It's gonna be tough doing that without synaptic. This is pretty much the last straw for us and Ubuntu...It's getting to the point where I can't tell where the bullet holes end and their feet begin. |
| albinard Jun 23, 2011 10:50 PM EDT |
Synaptic removed from Ubuntu 11.10? Okay, so Ubuntu 11.10 removed from serious consideration. |
| jimbauwens Jun 24, 2011 4:36 AM EDT |
Maybe I'll just switch to xubuntu. |
| r_a_trip Jun 24, 2011 4:45 AM EDT |
I'll have to see what Linux Mint does. Otherwise there is UCK for a custom spin. They'll only get my Synaptic from my cold, dead hands. |
| ComputerBob Jun 24, 2011 9:18 AM EDT |
Even when I was a long-time KDE user, I always preferred and used Synaptic over the KDE gui package managers. And for my past 16 months as an Xfce user, I've continued to use Synaptic. In response to Canonical removing it from Ubuntu, some people will say, "Who cares? It only takes one apt-get command to install Synaptic." Ironically, that's a big reason for including Synaptic: new users generally don't know -- or want to know -- how to navigate the command line. |
| JaseP Jun 24, 2011 9:24 AM EDT |
I echo ComputerBob on this one... |
| devnet Jun 24, 2011 9:37 AM EDT |
There's a reason I like to use the Smart Package Manager for everything..rpm or deb. Maybe it's time everyone else revisited it and gave it another try. |
| Jeff91 Jun 24, 2011 1:47 PM EDT |
I think most of the people that would really be put off by the removal of synaptic already walked out the door when Unity was added. That being said you still have the command line and can always add synaptic after the fact. ~Jeff |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 24, 2011 4:04 PM EDT |
I can understand why Ubuntu doesn't want duplicated tools (they removed Aptitude more than a few releases back, if I remember correctly), and they control the Software Center app but not Synaptic, so that gives them more of a say on what goes on in their environment. By the way, the Software Center is included in the stock Debian Squeeze desktop (along with Synaptic and Aptitude, both of which I use heavily). I've used the Software Center sporadically (maybe once in Debian), and it is more human-friendly than Synaptic, but it's certainly not more functional overall. I say it every time I jump into one of these threads: Ubuntu is hell-bent on differentiating itself from everything else out there and becoming the upstream in as many areas as they can. |
| techiem2 Jun 24, 2011 4:23 PM EDT |
So it seems to me (and I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong) that Ubuntu seems to be aiming specifically at new computer/new Linux users at the expense of the experienced users these days. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 24, 2011 5:30 PM EDT |
I'm pretty much outside of the whole thing, but I'm going to say yes, that's what they're doing. The experienced-user crowd is fickle and finite. There's no money to be made and little ground to gain with already established Linux users. Ubuntu's former plan was to cater to both the experienced and new users, and I'm not sure how well that was working. But as I always say, none of this will work if Ubuntu doesn't start really turning things around regarding preloads on traditional desktop and laptop PCs as well as (and maybe especially) tablet devices. Without these deals in place and growing rapidly, I don't see how this works at all for Ubuntu/Canonical. |
| ComputerBob Jun 25, 2011 8:02 AM EDT |
Quoting:The experienced-user crowd is fickle and finite.Steven, I agree with you about "finite," but I disagree about "fickle." I may be wrong, but it seems to me that, once they're past the distro-hopping phase, experienced users are extremely loyal to the things that have proven their worth over time. From here, it looks like Canonical is the one who's fickle -- constantly chasing after "the next cool thing" to the detriment of time-tested things that already have extremely loyal users. |
| helios Jun 25, 2011 10:36 AM EDT |
The experienced-user crowd is fickle and finite. Canonical may be on the verge of learning an important rural ideal... "You dance with the one that brung ya." |
| smallboxadmin Jun 25, 2011 10:05 PM EDT |
Quoting:I may be wrong, but it seems to me that, once they're past the distro-hopping phase, experienced users are extremely loyal to the things that have proven their worth over time. I agree. It seems Ubuntu is becoming everything we made fun of in Windows. Windows was a toy, Wintendo, remember that? Now it seems Ubuntu is becomming the least common denominator. While this may suit new/inexeprienced users, more experienced users will not use it, nor recommend it. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 25, 2011 10:35 PM EDT |
At this stage of the game in Ubuntu's evolution (small "e"), many of the "experienced" Linux users will stay along for the ride because they believe in the mission of bringing masses of users into the free/libre software tent. And whether Ubuntu is the best newbie distro or not (Mint, anybody?), it's the only one with a big company and a guy with deep pockets behind it. So volunteers, be they developers, forum leaders, or just plain evangelists, will still hitch up to Ubuntu as the last, best way to spread the Linux gospel to those who've never succumbed to its charms. But as I see it, all of this effort to make the maximum number of new users feel as welcome as they can be made to feel will amount to nought without Canonical really cranking up the heat on OEM deals for desktop/laptops and tablets. Android is the only counter to Mac iOS in the tablet space, and Ubuntu might have a chance in that space. It's the longest of long shots at this point. More in the realm of the possible would be reinvigorating the relationship with Dell (which started out with a quiet bang and quickly whimpered) and starting new ones with HP, Lenovo, Asus, etc. If it doesn't happen, the whole thing falls apart. |
| JaseP Jun 27, 2011 11:10 AM EDT |
Quoting: "You dance with the one that brung ya." Darn tootin'!!! |
| Koriel Jun 27, 2011 1:43 PM EDT |
Quoting:"You dance with the one that brung ya." That would be Slackware then! Can't see Patrick using Unity anytime soon :) |
| jdixon Jun 27, 2011 2:18 PM EDT |
> Can't see Patrick using Unity anytime soon :) Oh, I could see him putting it in testing, as long as it didn't require Gnome. |
| smallboxadmin Jun 27, 2011 4:42 PM EDT |
Quoting:Android is the only counter to Mac iOS in the tablet space, and Ubuntu might have a chance in that space. It's the longest of long shots at this point. Tablets are really just a two horse race, iOS and Android. Blackberry will fail and I really don't see Ubuntu competing with Android which already has its own app store. I see Windows 8 on tablets being more successful than either Blackberry or Ubuntu, but not significant compared to Android and Apple. Relationships with big box vendors are not the beginning or end of Linux, though having at least a line of computers with Linux pre-installed would make inroads faster and easier. Linux's life doesn't depend on this though. |
| skelband Jun 27, 2011 4:47 PM EDT |
@smallboxadmin: "Relationships with big box vendors are not the beginning or end of Linux, though having at least a line of computers with Linux pre-installed would make inroads faster and easier. Linux's life doesn't depend on this though." It sure helped Android. Only in that case, we are talking about wireless carriers. |
| smallboxadmin Jun 27, 2011 6:15 PM EDT |
@skelband Apples and oranges, and not even that closely related. |
| skelband Jun 27, 2011 6:50 PM EDT |
@smallboxadmin: "Apples and oranges" Eh? In what way? Care to clarify? In the Android case, we have large commercial interests getting the platform and pushing it to the public domain and selling lots of boxes as a sexy competitor to iOS. In the ideal Linux case, we would have Dell and their ilk pushing it as a sexy competitor to Windows. The difference is that Dell etc have not really tried very hard. Android has Google as a technology sponsor ensuring its development. At the moment, we have Canonical trying hard to be Google in that equation. They are just not quite there yet, but it is definitely their goal. Their Android Marketplace is the Ubuntu Store. There are more similarities than differences. The major difference is time. |
| jdixon Jun 27, 2011 10:06 PM EDT |
> Relationships with big box vendors are not the beginning or end of Linux, though having at least a line of computers with Linux pre-installed would make inroads faster and easier. No, but it could be the beginning or end of Canonical. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 28, 2011 12:54 AM EDT |
@jdixon Well-put. |
| smallboxadmin Jun 28, 2011 11:04 AM EDT |
@skeband Quoting:Eh? In what way? Care to clarify? The difference is Android needs hardware manufacturers and carriers for its success. It doesn't matter if Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. sell pre-installed boxes, Linux is installed by the end users. Tablets and smart phones are pretty much closed systems by the hardware manufacturer, yes they can be jail broken or rooted, that's the exception. Linux does not need to be pre-installed in order to live. |
| smallboxadmin Jun 28, 2011 11:11 AM EDT |
@jdixon Quoting:No, but it could be the beginning or end of Canonical. Canonical is shooting itself in the foot just fine on their own. |
| skelband Jun 28, 2011 12:47 PM EDT |
@smallboxadmin: "It doesn't matter if Dell, HP, Lenovo, etc. sell pre-installed boxes, Linux is installed by the end users. " Again I disagree. The *vast majority* of PC owners do not do OS installations. The OS comes with the box that they buy from the big box shifters. This is the big mistake and the main reason that Linux has not taken off on the desktop. If Android was something that people installed onto bare hardware, no-one would have heard of it. If Linux ever becomes popular on the desktop, it will be as an appliance (like Android to most people) and this is what Canonical are betting on and to be honest, I think that they are right. I just don't know how the market will end up with the situation being made much more blurred with the advent of the tablet. This is the reason why Canonical are going the Unity route. They are hedging their bets on tablets and desktops and assuming that they will all become one in the end. If I had some money to throw around, I would probably put some of it on that outcome. Not a lot, but a little. As a techie user of Linux, what Canonical are doing is not for me. But then we are not typical computing consumers now. Once upon a time yes, but no more. We are far outnumbered by the casual computing crowd so it is where I would expect Canonical to go. Don't forget, it's about the apps and the services. The OS is just a means to an end for Canonical. ======================== My daughter is now a mobile "Linux" user. She bought an Android phone last night from someone on Craigslist. An LG Shine Pro. She absolutely loves it. Easy to use, intuitive and she says it is "beautiful". I have to agree. This is the way that Linux is changing the world. It's brought genuine joy to someone and that must be worth a smile or two. |
| helios Jun 28, 2011 1:45 PM EDT |
I have to add just a note here. I have an aSSociate who despises Linux. I don't mean he simply doesn't like it...he thinks Linux is Satan manifested in C. He absolutely hates the FOSS ideals. He works as a data entry specialist with the State of Texas and after listening to the millionth co-worker gush over their new Android, he followed suit and purchased on of the new HTC's with slide-out keyboard. He came over to check on Diane's status and to visit a bit and spent some time showing me his new phone. I thought I was going to go all Tourettes on him and blurt it out but I remained calm and quietly informed him. Android IS Linux He actually thought an Android phone was based on Microsoft software. His laugh was obligatory as he thought I was kidding...until I took his phone away from him and pulled up a google search with the search string: "Android is based on"...http://www.google.com/search?q=android+is+based+on&ie=UTF-8 I'm not kidding here...he actually blanched as he clicked the link and read the first paragraph. I was not unkind...I did not laugh at him or rub it in...probably best that I didn't, I think he was capable of murder at that specific moment. Just goes to show...a bit of research is a good thing prior to a purchase. Especially if you are techno-challenged. Oh, I called him today and it rang once then went to voicemail. That means he hit "ignore" on his new Android phone. |
| gus3 Jun 28, 2011 1:51 PM EDT |
Just one question, helios: Does product research require more techno knowledge than the techno-challenged usually possess? |
| skelband Jun 28, 2011 1:56 PM EDT |
@helios: Priceless :D |
| smallboxadmin Jun 28, 2011 2:24 PM EDT |
@helios Sounds like my barber who says he refuses to own a computer (due to his fear that he'll waste too much time on it), but owns a Kindle. I keep telling him he does own a computer. I think we all pretty much understand that Android is Linux. However, maybe Google should say "Andriod, Powered by Linux". @skelband My point was that Linux doesn't need big box vendors to survive. Of course more people would use it if it came pre-installed. As a result more software vendors would port/create more Linux apps too. Quoting:Again I disagree. The *vast majority* of PC owners do not do OS installations. The OS comes with the box that they buy from the big box shifters I never said or inferred that they did. Quoting:This is the big mistake and the main reason that Linux has not taken off on the desktop. Here's where I disagree, I think third-party apps is why the Linux desktop has never taken off. I don't mean OpenOffice/LibreOffice, Gimp, I mean the wealth of business apps from ISV's that write for the Windows platform. Quoting:If Android was something that people installed onto bare hardware, no-one would have heard of it. Obviously this hasn't been the case with desktop Linux. |
| skelband Jun 28, 2011 2:42 PM EDT |
@smallboxadmin: "My point was that Linux doesn't need big box vendors to survive." "Survival" is not the same as success. White rhinos "survive" but they don't have a very promising future. Android is currently defining success. The vast majority of the population has never heard of Linux, but they have heard of Android. And unless someone with money gets behind Linux and pushes it to the public as an appliance delivering a service that they want, they never will. "Here's where I disagree, I think third-party apps is why the Linux desktop has never taken off. I don't mean OpenOffice/LibreOffice, Gimp, I mean the wealth of business apps from ISV's that write for the Windows platform." Well that's a big chicken and egg question though isn't it? Is it the apps that make Windows successful or the other way around? For some reason, people have a different perspective on Windows than they do with almost every other computing experience out there. They talk about Windows compatibility as though that was a feature. You don't hear the same language in the Android or iOS space. But you do raise an interesting point in that comment. There is a big divide in desktop usage. There are media consumers and there are business users and they do have very different requirements. Windows has the business desktop environment pretty much sewn up. I don't think Canonical are interested in that market though, especially since there are Linux-based incumbents in that sphere already (RedHat for example). They are after the consumers. I think that Android took Canonical a bit by surprise but they definitely want a piece of that media consumption pie. For a service delivery business like Canonical would like to be, that market is potentially very large indeed. |
| Fettoosh Jun 28, 2011 2:57 PM EDT |
Quoting:They are hedging their bets on tablets and desktops and assuming that they will all become one in the end. There is no doubt about that if you mean hardware wise, OTOH, software wise (OS & Apps) I doubt it. Take for instance the laptop, Notebook, Netbook and Tablet, they all have about the same basic hardware with couple components taken from one to make another. IOW, there is little difference between the hardware of any two and the main difference is the User Interface, usage, and size. So they pretty much can be combined, "Transformers Type", just like Motorola did with their Atrix device, [watch video]. In terms of UI, there is no reason why an interface similar to the KDE Plasma (Desktop, Netbook, Mobile) can't be utilized to give the user the option to choose what interface they prefer and depending on the device configuration at the time. Interns of usage, functionality & portability, they all are taken care of in the OS, applications and size. The question is, what is the cost of all combined vs separate devices, and how practical is it to have storage in and dependencies on multiple units? |
| BernardSwiss Jun 28, 2011 4:00 PM EDT |
The problem is not being "technologically challenged". Many relatively ignorant people manage to install Linux fairly easily and then use Linux quite satisfactorily -- and this has been true since at least 2002.Mark Twain wrote: It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so. |
| JaseP Jun 29, 2011 10:04 AM EDT |
I just love Bro. "Mark" (Sam Clemens)... He always had a knack for stating the obvious in a profound & humorous way. |
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