Can't argue with your assessment
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tracyanne May 27, 2011 11:33 PM EDT |
nt |
| keithcu May 28, 2011 1:12 AM EDT |
They just need to make / keep it optional. Free software is about choice. I like current Gnome. I think they should have written it in Python rather than Javascript, but whatever ;-/ |
| patrokov May 28, 2011 2:10 AM EDT |
Whatever you do, don't configure your GNU screen status bar to show you the other screens. You might get distracted. And from now on, there's only going to be one virtual terminal. Why at any moment, you might be tempted to hit Alt-F2, or F3, or F4...where does it end? You know what. No more pre-empted, multi-tasking kernel for you; it's single tasking from here on out. |
| azerthoth May 28, 2011 2:37 AM EDT |
Knome ... nuff said |
| jimbauwens May 28, 2011 4:48 AM EDT |
Quoting:I think they should have written it in Python rather than Javascript, but whatever.They wrote parts of it in Javascript? Wow, somebody was lazy... I'm already disliking the Ubuntu Software Center because its ultra slow ... applications like that shouldn't be written in interpreted languages. C or C++ is perfect. It looks like everybody thinks that they can use as many resources as possible, because a PC is powerful enough. That is how you get cr@ppy software, just like Windows. [/rant] |
| helios May 28, 2011 8:36 AM EDT |
Knome ... nuff said Succinctly brilliant. |
| Koriel May 28, 2011 10:42 AM EDT |
Actually I think the Gnome people have taken it to even further dumber extremes than the KDE folks did as I still find KDE nice to use although too resource hungry for me to use on a regular basis, I normally use XFCE. I do think the KDE folks backed off a little on their original ideas due to the backlash although they will never admit it. |
| Fettoosh May 28, 2011 11:18 AM EDT |
Quoting:Knome ... nuff said Sorry Ken, way far from it. Gnome doesn't resemble KDE and KDE 4 is now all about elegance and excellence. |
| azerthoth May 28, 2011 1:17 PM EDT |
Fettoosh, have a sense of history. The initial release of KDE4 was premature in the extreme. So let me connect some dots for you. In choosing the interface that they have, in thinking that they absolutely knew better than their users, they have not only made every single mistake that KDE did in its initial release they have added a few unique new ones to the list. hence Knome, instead of learning from the mistakes of others, they mirrored them. It's a lot like reading Orwells 1984 and mistaking it for a guidebook. |
| Fettoosh May 28, 2011 2:43 PM EDT |
Quoting:The initial release of KDE4 was premature in the extreme. No matter how bad and shoddy the development process was, what counts is the end product. Besides, the objectives and the development process of KDE and of Gnome are totally different. KDE revamped the framework but kept the same GUI theme and structure with enhanced options many many new. GNOME on the other had didn't and kept the same framework but changed the GUI. More over, KDE has multiple options for the GUI interfaces where any can be selected on the fly without rebooting or even re-login. GNOME gives two options and user have to logout to select a different one during re-login. So there is a big difference and using "cliché" stereo typing won't change this fact. |
| helios May 28, 2011 3:58 PM EDT |
Yeah, but cliches are only cliches because they represent a well-known and well-reported truth. No matter how bad and shoddy the development process was, what counts is the end product. From a consumer viewpoint, absolutely untrue. In 1985, I bought a brand new high performance Chevrolet Camaro. When it came time to change the oil, I went to the dealership and had the oil changed and they used the standard Quaker State product for that car. With less than 5000 miles on the car, the engine cratered due to faulty formulation of the oil. It took me 10 months and actually bringing suit against Quaker State to get them to replace the engine in that car. This was a nation-wide phenomenon and they ultimately ended up reformulating their oil to stem the landslide of lawsuits. I don't care how good Quaker State is now, I don't care if it allows me to safely go 10K miles between changes. I won't ever again use their product. I think a lousy consumer experience taints the user's perception of product much longer than it takes to produce an improved product or software release. KDE 4.0 absolutely stunk and I have not used it since. I don't care how good it is now...I switched over to the Gnome environment and haven't looked back. You gotta wonder how many loyal KDE users did the same. Az is correct in stating that Gnome seems dead-set on repeating the mistakes of KDE. I'm not arguing mechanics, I am talking about consumer perceptions. Knome seems to say it all. |
| Fettoosh May 28, 2011 8:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:.I switched over to the Gnome environment and haven't looked back. Fair enough, it is your choice, but why do you have to keep knocking KDE for issues that have been long gone and no longer relevant? Quoting:You gotta wonder how many loyal KDE users did the same. Good question and one wonders how many went back after realizing that the issues were taken care of and KDE 4 has a lot more to like over other DEs. I see many posts where that happened quite often. Quoting:Az is correct in stating that Gnome seems dead-set on repeating the mistakes of KDE Sorry, I still don't agree. GNOME is offering a new option (GNOME 3 Shell) for those who want to use it and hasn't taken the option of using the GNOME Classic yet. Until they do, you can't say they are repeating the same mistake. By the way, I don't use GNOME, but I find it strange to be bashed for accommodating for tablet devices. |
| azerthoth May 28, 2011 8:53 PM EDT |
~H glad you get it, fairly certain nearly everyone else caught it right off too. Not worth swinging with the clue by four for the rest. |
| tuxchick May 28, 2011 8:59 PM EDT |
No worries Ken and Az, the time-honored tactic of arguing people into liking something they had a bad experience with, or doesn't work for them, never fails! |
| tracyanne May 28, 2011 9:05 PM EDT |
Quoting:but I find it strange to be bashed for accommodating for tablet devices. Accomodating tablet devices is good, being dead set (the GNOME devs have said they will drop support for classic, as they will no longer support GNOME panel, and panel is an integral part of Classic) on supporting only tablets, is bad, when at least half the market for the foreable future will be laptops (notebooks if you prefer) and desktops with large and getting larger monitors, with at least a small but significant percent running multiple monitors (especially in Business or enterprise scenarios). |
| jdixon May 29, 2011 9:51 AM EDT |
> Fair enough, it is your choice, but why do you have to keep knocking KDE for issues that have been long gone and no longer relevant? Because such negative experiences are the result of management (developer) decisions and attitudes. Unless management (the developers) change, the likelihood is that such experiences will be repeated at some time in the future. > ...and one wonders how many went back... Almost none. You don't tread on a snake twice. > ...but I find it strange to be bashed for accommodating for tablet devices. No one is bashing accommodating tablet devices. They're bashing abandoning desktops in favor of tablet devices. |
| DrGeoffrey May 29, 2011 10:12 AM EDT |
Quoting: the GNOME devs have said they will drop support for classic, as they will no longer support GNOME panel, and panel is an integral part of Classic A monumentally short-sighted decision, IMHO. However, a foggy memory suggests the kde devs recently had very much the same perspective. And, while they've not reverted to supporting their prior version, they have (from all appearances) brought back at least some of the functionality lost. One can hope for similar enlightenment among the gnome devs. But, if it's not to be, there are many alternative desktops available. What choice will the windows victims have when MS brings the ribbon to their next costly, yet ultimately minor, upgrade (a.k.a., Windows 8)? |
| Fettoosh May 29, 2011 2:04 PM EDT |
Quoting:Because such negative experiences are the result of management (developer) decisions and attitudes. Should we address you with "Mr. Perfect"? The KDE team might have made a procedural/release error, but their technical decisions are right on as proven by later releases. Although these links are old, may be they would shed some light on the mis-conceptions that are still lingering in the minds of some and how KDE users who persisted with KDE 4.x. disproved them. http://linux-blog.org/hate-kde4-ignorance-is-probably-the-cu... http://www.linuxjournal.com/content/kde4-it-hurt-did-it-work Quoting:Almost none. You don't tread on a snake twice. You can't prove that. And what is up with treading on a snake?!?! Actually, on the contrary, I have seen many comments indicating users are switching back to KDE 4.x and this more recent article+comments might convince you that users ARE switching to KDE 4.x http://desktoplinuxreviews.com/2011/05/10/kubuntu-11-04/ Quoting:No one is bashing accommodating tablet devices. They're bashing abandoning desktops in favor of tablet devices. AFAIK, Gnome Classic is still an option. Besides Gnome Ubuntu is not the only Distro from Canonical. There is still Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu. Your claim at this point is biased and unjustified |
| jdixon May 29, 2011 2:26 PM EDT |
> Should we address you with "Mr. Perfect"? If you wish. > The KDE team might have made a procedural/release error... I'm pleased to see you admit the possibility. > You can't prove that. No, I can't. And you can't prove the inverse. So what was your point in asking if you weren't expecting an opinion in response? > And what is up with treading on a snake?!?! Trodden on snakes tend to bite. It's what you might call a negative consumer experience. > Actually, on the contrary, I have seen many comments indicating users are switching back to KDE 4.x... Ah, I see your point in asking. Why didn't you just make the point directly instead of prompting for a foil? In any case, I have no doubt you have. And I have no doubt I've seen at least an equal number who won't. Since I doubt either of us is willing to fund a study, I'll just have to go with my experience of human nature. > AFAIK, Gnome Classic is still an option. For now, yes. |
| Fettoosh May 30, 2011 9:39 AM EDT |
Quoting:And you can't prove the inverse. So what was your point in asking if you weren't expecting an opinion in response? But I proved your "almost none" assessment to be false. I wasn't really asking for your opinion, it was mostly for others to question your "almost none" assertion. Quoting:And I have no doubt I've seen at least an equal number who won't. Here you go again, making assertions that you can't backup. |
| jdixon May 30, 2011 10:24 AM EDT |
> But I proved your "almost none" assessment to be false. You did nothing of the kind, except perhaps in your own mind. > Here you go again, making assertions that you can't backup. What part of "I have no doubt" escapes you? It's a statement of opinion, not fact. But then since you seem to be incapable of separating your own opinions from fact, it's not that surprising you make the same mistake with others. |
| flufferbeer May 30, 2011 11:02 AM EDT |
Fettoosh wrote above:
> Besides Gnome Ubuntu is not the only Distro from Canonical.
There is still Kubuntu, Lubuntu, Xubuntu. THANK GOODNESS for Lxde and Xfce, while Gnome and KDE perceptually corrupt themselves! (Sorry for the interruption. Now you two, jdixon and Fettoosh, can get right back to your regularly-scheduled "discussion" on KDE4 and the Gnew Gnome :) ) 2c |
| tuxchick May 30, 2011 11:07 AM EDT |
Fettoosh, I'm waiting for the moment when someone says "OK Fettoosh, you have argued me into liking KDE4" and you tell them they're wrong because you can't break the habit of endless pointless circular argument. |
| DrGeoffrey May 30, 2011 11:31 AM EDT |
@flufferbeerQuoting:THANK GOODNESS for Lxde and Xfce, while Gnome and KDE perceptually corrupt themselves! Applause! |
| dinotrac May 30, 2011 12:52 PM EDT |
@tc -- Shame on you. That won't happen. Fettoosh lacks the chops to reach Point A, without which Point B remains out of reach. |
| dinotrac May 30, 2011 12:53 PM EDT |
@drG - And applause again. I don't know what it is with some of these people. It's as if they never really understood the point of free software. |
| azerthoth May 30, 2011 1:16 PM EDT |
Would that be the Gnu Knome flufferbeer? |
| flufferbeer May 30, 2011 1:50 PM EDT |
@azertoth
> Would that be the Gnu Knome flufferbeer? Sure, why not? The Whatever-Gnome is definitely Gnu and it's now the New non-Classic. (Meanwhile some of us await the continued "discussion" on KDE4 and the Gnew Gnome / Gnu Knome that I interrupted between jdixon and Fettoosh) -fb |
| hkwint May 31, 2011 4:14 AM EDT |
@JimBauwens: KDE is written in C++ AFAIK, just like (I guess) XFCE, so it's not all program language which counts. I think JavaScript can be pretty fast given the right interpreter. Not as fast as native, but still OK. I'm a bit lost: First there was an uproar about KDE 4.0, then about Unity, and now about Gnome. Which leaves me wondering what to use, as I didn't particularly like XFCE or LXDE. More precise: I think XFCE was OK, but I didn't like the standard applications. So I'm stuck on the legacy 'clumsy' mostly unmaintained but very stable WindowMaker; together with some KDE-apps (like Dolphin, Konsole). With yeganesh/dmenu as my spartan app-launcher; which works pretty well. Akonadi still crashes my XServer from time to time it seems; which is pretty ******* if you're writing a letter in Facebook at the moment, which is lost afterwards. Maybe I should reside to writing it in vi on the console first? Already when they disabled Ctrl-Alt-Backspace, I felt the devs were heading in a dumb-down direction which I don't like; seems it's becoming worse with Gnome 3. Which is sad, because I'm really tired of my WMaker/Gentoo distribution and was looking for an alternative to switch too. But still stuck... |
| Ridcully May 31, 2011 4:43 AM EDT |
Frankly, I don't care whose fur I stroke the wrong way with this comment. I don't use Gnome, don't intend to use Gnome, but I do care that it succeeds and keeps its users happy. That said, this situation sounds awfully like the initial revolt against KDE4. I accept there are major differences between the two releases, and they can be used to account for the whole situation. Nevertheless......to a disinterested onlooker, this smells awfully like KDE4 Wars, Part II (The Gnome System), and that's sad. Fettoosh and I have crossed swords in the past, but on this occasion I am pleased to state that I am extremely happy with KDE4 and I am only using KDE4.4, not the latest and better versions, although I do have KDE4.5 running perfectly. I have said in the past in my articles, and say it again now, you can make KDE4 behave as tightly as you wish (with no bells and whistles) and its excellent stability and reasonable speed, even in KDE4.4, is quite remarkable. KDE4.4 simply does not crash in my experience......or at least it doesn't when processing the things I want to do on a single laptop attached to a broadband modem. With respect to Tuxchick's analysis, it seems to mirror exactly what a friend of mine has found out for himself with respect to Gnome3. He is a devoted Gnome user (and yes, he and I fight all the time over whether Gnome or KDE is better - so far that particular battle is a total draw - where Gnome2 is concerned), but let me put it in his own words: Quoting:Well I tried it (Gnome3) I really did try hard, and finally deleted it ! I just got to a point where I just couldn't be bothered learning how to do it the Gnome3 way, especially when I know how to do it in Gnome2. Besides that, it really IS geared towards noobs who know nothing! Yes you can get around that but I just got sick of trying! Perhaps I didn't give it the proper go that I should, call it weakness or frustration, whatever! I blew it away !! I think that says it all. Even the worst critics of KDE4 could not have given that analysis, even though I remain convinced that there was oversimplification due to some removal of "personal manager tweaks". |
| ComputerBob May 31, 2011 9:59 AM EDT |
It seems to me that many proponents of the "everything new" movement(s) are forgetting that users originally chose to use KDE, Gnome, etc. because they preferred its features, interface, etc., to those of the alternative DEs/WMs. When the devs completely change the features, interface, etc., of KDE, Gnome, etc., they are creating ENTIRELY DIFFERENT DE/WMs whose features/interface, etc., should COMPETE with the old DE/WMs' features/interface, etc., instead of completely replacing them and forcing users to re-evaluate the options all over again and make a new decision. Speaking as someone who uses his computer as a tool to get work done, instead of as a hobby to futz and fiddle and play with, I don't appreciate it when FOSS devs change things around -- apparently for the sake of change -- any more than I appreciate it when the MS Office devs do it. "In with the new" doesn't have to mean "out with the old." There are plenty of good reasons why "the old" was popular with users. |
| jdixon May 31, 2011 10:19 AM EDT |
> There are plenty of good reasons why "the old" was popular with users. Yep. And complaints about unnecessary changes shouldn't be regarded as ungrateful users not knowing what's best for them. which is how the KDE developers seemed to view it. We'll have to wait and see how the Gnome folks react to the same types of complaints. Now, adapting to a changing environment is both necessary and good. And Linux does need tools which work well with mobile devices. But abandoning the desktop user in the process is sort of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. |
| helios May 31, 2011 10:22 AM EDT |
I have said in the past in my articles, and say it again now, you can make KDE4 behave as tightly as you wish Please note...I have not used or revisited KDE 4.x in a meaningful way for almost 18 months so my observations may be grossly incorrect due to bug fixes or improvements. Still, let me say that the above quote struck a memory chord with me. Even in KDE 3.X, there existed so much redundancy that even the most casual user was left to wonder why. If memory serves me correctly, there seemed to be at least two places you could go to accomplish the same task and it was confusing. Once you settled down into the system, you realized it was simply the way the DE was written and you chose a method of adjusting your settings. For the record, I thoroughly enjoyed KDE 3.X. I think the problem both KDE and Gnome users experience has been the sea change in the way they interface their computers. My observations are that Gnome users are reacting to "the shell" the same way KDE users reacted to Plasma. To their minds, it was a forced march to learn an entire new language-set and a way of doing things. Akonadi server anyone? Look, most of us despise being forced into anything. Readers here have an intimate relationship with our computers. We know every bit and byte and where it resides and how it responds to our commands. Setting up an entirely new paradigm is going to ruffle feathers. Back to my original point, Ridcully made a concerted effort to learn and use KDE 4. His documentation of the process was both in depth and powerful, yet it reminded me clearly of why I walked away from KDE 4. I shouldn't have to become a specialist in any DE in order to use it and it seemed that the amount of work needed to do so exceeded my time and patience limits. Many have perceived Gnome as doing the exact same thing. Has KDE 4 evolved into a usable DE? Of course it has. Will Gnome 3 do the same? Probably. Hopefully. But in the meantime, what the developers haven't quite grasped is that their "vision of the future" has disrupted millions of computer users. Changes like this should be rolled out over time. I didn't have time to test the betas of Gnome any more than I had time to test KDE 4. This goes way past resisting change...it's result is akin to splashing paint over a masterpiece and watching the artist improve his work. Of course, fanboi-ism on both sides doesn't do anything but clutter the environment with tangents and unnecessary commentary. Sure we all take sides...it's our nature but what good does it do in the long run? Millions of people being drug kicking and screaming into someone's "vision of the future" can be noted almost simultaneously from the Ubuntu and Gnome fronts via Unity and Gnome 3 Nope...don't see any room for controversy there. |
| Fettoosh May 31, 2011 10:29 AM EDT |
Quoting:Fettoosh, I'm waiting for the moment when someone says "OK Fettoosh, you have argued me into liking KDE4" and you tell them they're wrong because you can't break the habit of endless pointless circular argument. @TC, You said the same multiple times already and I am not sure what makes you think I am trying to do that. As before, I say it again, I careless what any body uses for their desktop, I am not trying to convince them to use KDE4, and I am not a contributor or associated with KDE at all. All I am doing is to make some to stop using FUD, yes FUD, against KDE4 as if it was the plague or even worse, as if it was an MS product. It is unfair and flat out wrong. Like they say, who needs enemies when you have such friends. My whole point in this thread is that GNOME is not going through the same path or changes as KDE4 did, and it doesn't deserve the bashing it is getting. Although I don't use GNOME, I see the same thing being done to it just they way it was done to the early releases of KDE4. May be GNOME deserve a chance to continue with their development effort and see what they come up with. May be it will have a wide range of users who are going to like it very much. We will never know until we see a complete version. And Thanks to Ridcully for highlighting it so eloquently. It is unjustified, just as it was unjustified towards KDE4. KDE4 is now the best full fledged desktop one could find. Persistently using past procedural error and lack of features at its early stages of development to keep bashing it and attacking it is just silly and I consider it immature. KDE now has more features and more stable than KDE 3.5.x ever was. I know because it is the only DE I use on all the machines I support.. And Ridcully, give KDE 4.6.3 a try, it has been solid and a piece of beauty. Of course, there are still few areas, like Nepomuk and PIM, that need more development. They won't hurt when disabled and they can be disabled. I say it again, I careless what anyone's preference of a desktop is, all I care about is stop the non-sense, all nonsense towards any FOSS software. If one doesn't like an app, they could find multiple others to choose from. There should be no reason to bash what they don't like. Giving feedback and constructive criticism is most helpful, but that should be done appropriately. And if the developers don't take any of it, that is their prerogative. If KDE4 is not your cup of tea, there are many other flavors you can try and have. No one could force anyone else to switch. Keep in mind that FOSS is highly dynamic and change is how it keeps getting better at such a fast pace. I was born an engineer, raised as an engineer, and grew up as an engineer and I know what is right and wrong. So now you know why I am tenacious and persistent and I am not stubborn mind you. AFAIK, JD never liked KDE and I assume he never used it steadily, that is his prerogative. But making assertions like "almost none" switched back to KDE4 while comments all over indicate otherwise is flat out false and shouldn't be ignored. Splitting hairs in his argument doesn't fly with me. And by the way, I never expected or waited for anyone to switch back, and neither should you. It is a matter of setting false perceptions and irresponsible assertions straight. |
| helios May 31, 2011 10:59 AM EDT |
May be GNOME deserve a chance to continue with their development effort and see what they come up with. "What they come up with"? Really? Is this an experiment? Fettoosh, the argument isn't whether Gnome or KDE will evolve into something better or even useful. The point is that both respectively foisted their immense changes on millions of users at once. Whether it's Unity or Gnome 3, these major changes have disrupted the work flow of Linux users across the planet. The Gnome shell should have been an option, not a default the same way Plasma should have been. Sure, down the road it will probably all work out, and yes, the need to address small device usability is necessary. I think the point of the whole matter is that Linux users feel like they are part of a planet-wide forced focus group. I've already seen and heard the defensive postures of both Gnome and KDE developers. They brought that upon themselves. Changes of this magnitude should be eased into the Linux user's experience, not dropped upon them like an anvil. |
| Fettoosh May 31, 2011 11:23 AM EDT |
Quoting:Yep. And complaints about unnecessary changes shouldn't be regarded as ungrateful users not knowing what's best for them. which is how the KDE developers seemed to view it. We'll have to wait and see how the Gnome folks react to the same types of complaints. Unnecessary changes in whose eyes? The majority of the changes in KDE were a must to break the stagnation in the Linux desktop. Instead of being left behind Windows & Apple desktops, KDE4 is ahead of both. GNOME made some of the enhancements to keep up with KDE4. Out of curiosity, in your opinion, what were those unnecessary changes? And if you think you know better than the KDE developers, may be you want to join them to set them straight. Frankly, I don't think the KDE team , or any other team for that matter, could satisfy the desires of everyone, so it is best to satisfy themselves and make their software available to those who like to use it. I too disagree with GNOME dropping full fledge (Classical) desktop. I said that multiple times already and that is why I keep mentioning KDE Plasma Netbook (similar to GNOME Shell) interface and the new Plasma Mobile interface, which are available in addition to the Plasma Desktop Interface hoping that GNOME do the same. For the user to be able to make the selection on the fly, without having to reboot or re-login, is one of the capabilities that the Plasma framework is making possible. Activities is another one, and down the road, we will see more of the new capabilities like Active Apps. But beside waiting to see how GNOME Devs. going to react, we also have to wait and see how GNOME desktop is going to mature. |
| dinotrac May 31, 2011 11:26 AM EDT |
>I know what is right and wrong I cannot think of a better capsule summary of the disease that has infected "FOSS" developers these days. I put FOSS in quotes, btw, because it used to have some real meaning -- as in the freedom to use and do with your own equipment as you saw fit. Yup. I know what is right and wrong. That's why a Mercedes is exactly the same car as a BMW as a Ferrari as a Prius as a Mini. Maybe our friend Fettoosh can make the world a better place by paying Linux t. a visit and letting him know how much he continues to screw up the Linux kernel. After that, he can set Steve Jojbs straight on Apple's marketing. |
| dinotrac May 31, 2011 11:30 AM EDT |
@ridcully Your series on how to fix KDE 4 almost tempted (and almost still tempts) me to give it a try. It sounds like they've got the software working much better now. Every time I get tempted, however, I remember the incredible contempt that various KDE developers have expressed for KDE (and former) KDE users. I need my workstation to make a living. I absolutely must be able to rely on it. In my world, being able to trust the development team trumps liking the software, and I can't quite bring myself to trust the KDE folks. So, XFCE remains good enough for me, even if I think KDE with a different set of developers might be even better. |
| Fettoosh May 31, 2011 11:58 AM EDT |
Quoting:The point is that both respectively foisted their immense changes on millions of users at once. Whether it's Unity or Gnome 3, these major changes have disrupted the work flow of Linux users across the planet. The Gnome shell should have been an option, not a default the same way Plasma should have been. Ken, I read your comment until after my previous comment on JD's. I agree that GNOME 3 Shell should be an option. I was one of the first who said that. I also agree that both KDE & GNOME made changes that impacted many users, but the fact is, individual users didn't get impacted, or shouldn't have been impacted, since they could test to check whether they like the changes before hand. In terms of a larger group of users, it is a problem and should have been addressed by the distributions. Ubuntu does address that by having LTS release, which give ample time for users to keep what they are suing for long time before they make a move. One of the strengths of FOSS is its high dynamic nature, but it is also its Achilles' heel when it comes to large groups of users. It is an issue which could be resolved by better release cycles and long term support. Also, Developers and Distros should emphasize enough the importance of testing before major upgrades/updates/ new releases. I must say, MS does a good job at that. Imagine, Win XP is still widely used after 6 years of its release and even after its EOL. |
| Fettoosh May 31, 2011 12:24 PM EDT |
@Dino, In FOSS's spirit, I say "suit yourself". |
| dinotrac May 31, 2011 12:46 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh -- I do. I just wish more developers did, instead of pounding their chests in puffed up engineering macho. |
| jdixon May 31, 2011 12:56 PM EDT |
> AFAIK, JD never liked KDE and I assume he never used it steadily... Partially correct. I never used it steadily because I tend to run older systems which are better served by a lower resource desktop (usually XFCE). However, I found KDE3 quite usable and had no problems with it. I used it when I needed some functionality that XFCE didn't provide, and I used quite a few of the KDE applications on a regular basis (k3b, ktorrent, noatun, and a few of the KDE games come to mind). As for KDE4, I don't care whether KDE4 works well or not. I simply have no interest in supporting developers who tell their user base to go to h**l when they complain about changes. > ...while comments all over indicate otherwise is flat out false and shouldn't be ignored. And when you're willing to fund a study to prove that comment you'll have a point. Until then it's entirely your opinion, as my statement is mine. Comments here and there prove nothing. They're anecdotes, not data. My opinion is at least based on decades of observation and centuries long records of human nature. > Unnecessary changes in whose eyes? The eyes of the only one who matters. The person using the software. You seem to think the opinion of the developers should matter to the user. It doesn't and it shouldn't. > And if you think you know better than the KDE developers, may be you want to join them to set them straight. Know better about what? Keeping a satisfied core of customers happy? Obviously, since they didn't even bother trying. Writing a completely new desktop environment while pretending to keep the semblance of an older one? Almost certainly not. Since it's the latter they're interested in, not the former, why should I bother them? > ...so it is best to satisfy themselves and make their software available to those who like to use it. And there you have it. Yes, it is better to satisfy themselves. But it's best not to pretend you're upgrading an existing project when you're in fact replacing it completely with a new, largely incompatible one. No one forced them to call their desktop KDE. > Every time I get tempted, however, I remember the incredible contempt that various KDE developers have expressed for KDE (and former) KDE users. Yep. And that treatment is why I think "almost none" of those former users switched back. And why I have no use for KDE4. To be fair to Fettoosh, we may be talking about two different classes of people. I don't think anyone who was alienated by the changes to KDE and actually took the time to switch to and learn any of Gnome, XFCE, LXDE, Enlightenment, et.al., will ever come back to KDE. However, there is probably a large class of users who simply decided KDE4 wasn't yet ready for time prime and either reverted to KDE3 or tried out other desktops while they waited for it to mature. Those users may indeed have come back to KDE4 once it became stable enough to satisfy them. However, I don't consider them to have ever "switched" from KDE in the first place. Fettoosh probably does. |
| dinotrac May 31, 2011 2:51 PM EDT |
@jd - You're actually missing the worst part -- the one KDE developers like to ignore, one that is akin to using somebody's code without attribution. When these people pretended that they were bringing out a new release of KDE, they were really hijacking the credibility and utility points won by all of the great work and people who preceded them. They were claiming the fame of their predecessors, and the user community that generated said fame. The lacked the guts and integrity to start anew. They wanted the fame, but they didn't want the responsibility to go with it. How do you trust people like that? |
| Fettoosh May 31, 2011 3:25 PM EDT |
Quoting: How do you trust people like that? You don't and no one would. But, are you for real?! Any how, what you outlined is hard to believe and could be a pigment of your imagination. You sure have a wild one Dino. :) |
| dinotrac May 31, 2011 4:14 PM EDT |
@fettosh -- Sorry. Just the residue of more than 15 years working with free software. I've made the mistake of having expectations. |
| TxtEdMacs May 31, 2011 4:15 PM EDT |
Hey Footsie, Stop your racist rants: Quoting: [...] what you outlined is hard to believe and could be a pigment of your imagination. [...] YBT |
| skelband May 31, 2011 4:22 PM EDT |
@Dinotrac: "They wanted the fame, but they didn't want the responsibility to go with it." Interestingly this issue came out time and time again with the Pidgin debate. The concept that the custodians of free software used by a great many people have a social responsibility. This is at odds with the idea of "if you don't like it, you can use something else" that we hear from a lot of developers. The Pidgin developers basically said that we write Pidgin the way we like it and sod the rest of you. That's a very Thatcher-esque (as in Maggie) view of the world and to my mind totally at odds with the almost (dare I say it?) communistic ideals of the free software world. |
| dinotrac May 31, 2011 4:58 PM EDT |
@skelband -- Given that Free Software with caps was born of a utilitarian need for a printer driver, you'd think people would understand that the free software ethic includes not screwing over the folks who have come to rely on what you do -- or, at least, not doing it lightly. In RMS world, it's about the software. In KDE world -- and some others -- it's about the developers. |
| jdixon May 31, 2011 5:08 PM EDT |
> But, are you for real?! Yes, he's for real. He's explained, in concise and understandable terms exactly what they did. What point of the explanation do you dispute? |
| jdixon May 31, 2011 5:14 PM EDT |
> The Pidgin developers basically said that we write Pidgin the way we like it and sod the rest of you. Yep. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But you can't expect either appreciation or loyalty from users when you have that attitude. After all, you're doing it for yourself, not them. I think the Pidgin developers understand that. I don't think the KDE developers do. |
| dinotrac May 31, 2011 5:19 PM EDT |
@jd - That may be the most galling part:" They seem so upset that, in response to being told "Screw you", we respond with "Screw you". Maybe it's adding "and the horse you rode in on" that gets their dander up. |
| Fettoosh May 31, 2011 5:47 PM EDT |
Quoting:Hey Footsie, very funny Txt, and sorry for the rant . But could you please make sure you spell my nickname right next time? Footsie?!!! give me a break, any kindergartner can do better! Fettoosh actually means something, I give you three trials to guess what it is. No help from Google. |
| DrGeoffrey May 31, 2011 5:59 PM EDT |
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." I've oft tried to live by that quote. |
| skelband May 31, 2011 6:01 PM EDT |
@jdixon: "I think the Pidgin developers understand that. I don't think the KDE developers do." I would agree to a certain extent. The Pidgin developers were very open about their disdain :D And I think I'm right in saying that the key developer in this debacle was the original author. S to some extent, he is entitled to say this is how it is because I wrote it for myself and others can use it if they want. KDE (and Gnome) is a bit of a different kettle of fish. They have a long history with an ideal that was set at the beginning of the project which should be respected by those that follow on. A good analogy would be if someone took ownership of a car firm, say Rolls Royce. True, they could turn out any old crap cars, but you could say that they have a responsibility to maintain the ideals and intentions of Messrs Rolls and Royce in terms of making cars that follow the tradition laid down. Like Dinotrac above, I think if you wish to depart significantly from that, you should fork in the proper way and offer another parallel option to the community rather than killing the old at the same time. After all, I don't see a groundswell of people complaining that the existing Gnome DE has significant problems to justify this departure per se. |
| Ridcully May 31, 2011 6:06 PM EDT |
You know what drives me up the wall ?????? I'm asleep when "all you lot get together and have a great jam session - and I can't join in..........waaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhh !!!!!!!" :-) Thankyou as always Helios for your kind words and pretty spot on comments. Also Dinotrac for the "tempt to KDE4" which was rather nice; I always think it was such a pity that so many people were turned off by the first versions of KDE4, but conversely, very understandable given the paradigm shift and this aspect has been hammered again and again by huge numbers of people including myself. I think you are right however with respect to Xfce - if it works for you and does all you want, it ain't broke so don't fix it.......On the other hand, fit up a test machine and at least trial KDE4.4 or onwards in the versions.....KDE4.5 seems equally good. And as a parting comment, Xfce was where I was going if KDE4 never came good (for me anyway), so I agree with your choice completely. I may be the odd exception to the rule where Jdixon is concerned. I recall being thoroughly "pinged off" over KDE4's direction at first and joined in scathing attacks on the software on LXT.....Tuxchick may remember that, although I was under a different name.......And yet now, I find the software excellent - I simply disregard aspects of it and they are never run on my laptop - sort of a cut-down version; and I now know that my style of usage is known about and encouraged by the KDE team itself. It all depends on whether you make the choice to trial the package seriously......and that in turn raises the other aspect brought out above by various comments: a new version should be similar enough to the older version to allow users to feel at home and explore. Improving by increments always works for me, but blowing away all familiar landmarks is not a good way to get people on side. Gnome3 S(hell) appears to have disobeyed this rule. I haven't seen this new Gnome3 and have no particular desire or intention of doing so. My requirements are perfectly satisfied by KDE4.....but, I'd like to come back to something that was mentioned by the member of the KDE team who was kind enough to give the Q&A article in my series: If you think something is badly broken, you probably won't get anywhere simply by blowing up about it - and it's a mistake I made myself much earlier on with KDE4 and my own rants. What you have to do is "get down and dirty" and join in with the development team in some way. Direct action usually gets results, and if enough irritated people do that, the direction of Gnome3 will change. From everything that is being said, it may very well need to do so. |
| Fettoosh May 31, 2011 6:07 PM EDT |
Quoting:He's explained, in concise and understandable terms exactly what they did. Sure he explained it alright, but didn't present any solid substantive evidence for anyone to believe it. [edited]May be except yourself. |
| Fettoosh May 31, 2011 6:33 PM EDT |
Quoting:You know what drives me up the wall ?????? If it is any consolation, I find your comments to be a breeze of fresh air. Thank you for your objectiveness. |
| Ridcully Jun 01, 2011 4:37 AM EDT |
Thanks Fettoosh........though I confess I just tell it like I see it........You should see me on my bad days: grumpy old coot and snarling with the best of them. :-) Generally speaking not on LXer though.....too many nice people. |
| dinotrac Jun 01, 2011 6:27 AM EDT |
@too many nice people TC and I keep trying to change that, but we're only two people. |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 01, 2011 7:54 AM EDT |
Quoting:TC and I keep trying to change that, but we're only two people. dino, I never suspected you had that vivid an imagination. Nonetheless, I think you failed the mathematics portion, by my count it's only one. [WARNING: If you persist I will dig up a mountain of your LXer comments that will prove my contention. Your evolution to the nice side is still very recent phenomena. Thus, requires further observation to prove it's just not a statistical fluctuation.] YBT |
| Ridcully Jun 01, 2011 8:46 AM EDT |
Quoting:dino............Your evolution to the nice side is still very recent phenomena. I think Txt is being unfair, and you can easily prove it: "Use the force, Dino, use the force........" I wish you two would stop subverting my serious nature.......LOL :-) |
| dinotrac Jun 01, 2011 9:06 AM EDT |
@rc and @txt: Evolution to the nice side? Pshaw. I have always been the epitome of the nice side. I was bathing in the bright side of The Force when it was still The Gentle Urging. Niceness would be my middle name if it weren't already something else. Why you two sorry twits can't get that blatantly obvious fact (obvious, at least, to any being with an IQ exceeding that of mold) is beyond me. That I continue to engage you pitiful pandering pups in conversation just proves how incredibly nice I am. Which is why I say "Have a nice day, it's been a pleasure" even though I don't mean it. |
| Ridcully Jun 01, 2011 9:25 AM EDT |
@Dinotrac.......Egad Sir.......I did say "force" not "farce"......Your utterances are now positively gnomic. I shall retire gracefully from the field knowing I have done my best for peace and harmony. (And probably miss the best of this dialogue as always.......) Ah well......to sleep, perchance to dream. |
| tuxchick Jun 01, 2011 10:41 AM EDT |
dino, I respond in kind-- poopyhead! Ha. Take that. |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 01, 2011 11:59 AM EDT |
dino, Interesting comment: Quoting: [...] blatantly obvious fact (obvious, at least, to any being with an IQ exceeding that of mold) is beyond me. [serious] Did you know that Slim Mold solves some problems more efficiently than the best computer optimization efforts? [/serious] [opinion] It is not nice to under rate single cell life forms. Indeed, more cells that you view as yours are actually ride alongs that are not of human origin. Moreover, without them either by their absence or their misbehaving your health would be much worse.[/opinion] So take more caution when you wish to depreciate my words of known, verifiable truthfulness. Your weak retort so elegantly proves how unnice a state you revert to spontaneously and with alacrity. Thus, statistically speaking you are not fully one of the nice ones that can be counted upon. Take that, YBT |
| dinotrac Jun 01, 2011 12:18 PM EDT |
@Txt - You sir, have done me a great service for which I thank you. In no way did I mean to deprecate mold by implying that it's thought processes might languish down at your level. I suffer grievously at the thought that I may have insulted any innocent mold, fungus, or yet-to-be-discovered form of life. |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 01, 2011 12:42 PM EDT |
Well I have more to thank you for the article that will shortly appear in print (and bits && bytes) "Newly Discovered Life Form" Nasty bunch of non singing Dinos thrives in unfriendly environments and retorts in kind. This Dino caused the real Dinosaurs a sense of foreboding and fear. Resulted in their premature extinction of all Dinosaur species, with the exception of the humanoid form of non singing Dinos. Despite his assertion of respect for single cell life forms and even molds, this beast is known to trample upon them with obvious gusto and ill intent. Therefore, distrust all words that emanate from whatever form a dino happens to take. You will know him by his tracs. Enough for now, YBT |
| dinotrac Jun 01, 2011 12:54 PM EDT |
@txt: Premature? Did you ever meet any of those guys? Good riddance! Couldn't have happened to a more deserving group. Party planning was an absolute abomination. Never could get a T Rex to understand the correct meaning of "dinner guest". |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 01, 2011 1:21 PM EDT |
Dino, Sir, Exalted One ... So you taught the full gamut of T Rexes and close relatives dinner manners?!! God Father, I have a favor I wish to ask ... YBT |
| dinotrac Jun 01, 2011 2:15 PM EDT |
@Txt -- No, unfortunately not. I did lose a lot of dinner guests, though. |
| jdixon Jun 01, 2011 3:20 PM EDT |
> Sure he explained it alright, but didn't present any solid substantive evidence for anyone to believe it. That would be "I've got nothing", then. The evidence you claim to want would be the public actions and comments of the KDE developers themselves, which should be readily available for anyone to review. I'll leave it up to any interested observers to review those comments and see if Dino's analysis is accurate or not. In my view it's not only accurate, but actually overly kind. Entire textbooks could (and may for all I know) be written using the KDE4 project as an example of how not to handle a software development project. If they are, I can only hope that they don't have to add an addendum for Gnome 3. > No, unfortunately not. I did lose a lot of dinner guests, though. While I can't speak to the matter personally, I understand their table manners left much to be desired too. :) |
| BernardSwiss Jun 01, 2011 5:14 PM EDT |
Is this what passes for a flame war on LXer? {sigh} Nothing for it then, I suppose, but to declare you all "Honorary Canadians". |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 01, 2011 5:25 PM EDT |
Quoting: [...] I suppose, but to declare you all "Honorary Canadians". So now you are making Swiss Cheese of facts. I resent the implications, since I swan the Rio Grande to get here ... length wise my GPS navigator was on the fritz that day, week, month or year. You know electronics, when they get wet you are lucky if they even run. YBT |
| Ridcully Jun 01, 2011 6:00 PM EDT |
I knew it, I knew it.......I retire to the arms of Morpheus and you all romp about again. Loved all the comments, even if this thread is now totally "twisted". With all these compliments, backhanders and international flavours (including mouldy cheeses) I have no choice: you are also all invited to become honorary Australians - you'll fit perfectly even if you take up the Canadian offer first because they all seem to be marvellous people from the few I have met. Only one condition however: you buy your own boomerang, spears and pass a test on the didgeridoo. Oh, by the way Txt, slime moulds have traditionally been placed in the fungal kingdom and hence have been part of the array of organisms that I have studied. Fascinating "things" - they move in their early stages, but then stop and produce a fruiting body with spores. I second Jdixon's comment above.....I sincerely hope that the Gnome team have given considerable thought to this release and educating the community on how to use the software. But from the comments, I cannot help thinking that this is another example of a software package that a community (in this case Gnome) didn't want and has been forced onto them. Lots of dust to settle though. |
| tuxchick Jun 01, 2011 9:06 PM EDT |
Molson beer! |
| Ridcully Jun 01, 2011 9:35 PM EDT |
@Tuxchick.......had never heard of Molson Beer; but after a little search, found out what it is, where it is from and where it is available in Australia. What with Dino and Txt subverting my usually serious nature, and you trying to lead me down the flowery path of .......well, whatever......Now I shall have to darn well go and see if I can find some in Brisbane....... @ Bernard Swiss......I suppose this IS the LXer form of flame wars.......but with a lot more serious debate and laughter than sometimes occurs elsewhere. Incidentally, I note we have both commented elsewhere on the author who believes DRM should be introduced to Linux, and both of us find the idea utterly ridiculous. |
| dinotrac Jun 01, 2011 10:13 PM EDT |
Molson shmolson. If you want to end every senence with "eh?", you've got to guzzle you some LaBatt's 50. |
| tracyanne Jun 01, 2011 10:34 PM EDT |
Ginger beer! |
| caitlyn Jun 02, 2011 12:42 AM EDT |
You haven't really had Molson until you've tried Molson Brador... only sold in Canada. The alcohol content is too high for the U.S. market. Good to see the desktop wars are still alive and well. I've been running Linux as my primary OS for 13 years now. Some things never change. |
| Scott_Ruecker Jun 02, 2011 12:55 AM EDT |
Quoting:They brought that upon themselves. Changes of this magnitude should be eased into the Linux user's experience, not dropped upon them like an anvil. But helios..Microsoft does it so it must be ok right? ;-) We're all just lowly users who are only able to enjoy the benefits of FOSS because of the immense efforts of the divine and omnipotent devs... And if the devs didn't feel that way, then changes rolled out to the users would be different wouldn't they? |
| caitlyn Jun 02, 2011 12:57 AM EDT |
You know what? Drink enough Brador and you won't even notice that the user experience is different or painful. It will all seem just fine. (Edit) p.s.: I don't even like beer. |
| JaseP Jun 02, 2011 8:36 AM EDT |
I read that there's already a Fedora tool to tweak Gnome3 back to more of a Gnome 2-like experience... By the time I'm ready to upgrade from Ubuntu 10.04 LTS, there'll be many more tools... Beyond the developers that made these design decisions, of course. Unity?!?! Gnome Shell?!?! Bah!!! As long as I can have my Cairo-dock & Compiz, I'm golden. |
| BernardSwiss Jun 02, 2011 7:24 PM EDT |
I think Bruce Byfield's article pretty much nailed it: In short, the devs (Unity, Gnome3) took the current results of ongoing UI research, assumed the principles discovered so far were settled, invariable, universally applicable Laws Of Nature, and drove hell-for-leather in the direction of the promised Nirvana like gold-crazed prospectors stampeding to the Klondike Gold Rush. How much this was driven by how much by desire to improve the UI, how much by the desire simply to tinker, and how by the pursuit of mass popularity, is harder to figure. |
| Steven_Rosenber Jun 02, 2011 7:32 PM EDT |
I've been spending quite a bit of time running Ubuntu 10.04 with our beloved GNOME 2 (in addition to my main Squeeze, Debian that is, with -- yes! -- GNOME 2). |
| azerthoth Jun 03, 2011 5:53 PM EDT |
caitlyn that may be a state by state limitation, I can get 18 proof beer in Alaska and have gotten 20 proof in Oklahoma. |
| TxtEdMacs Jun 03, 2011 7:41 PM EDT |
az, More than the state, what was the season? Sounds more like antifreeze than beer. YBT |
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