A little over the top, maybe?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| lcafiero May 06, 2011 2:01 PM EDT |
Truth in advertising disclaimer: Many of you already know that I have been an active participant in the Fedora Project for several years; for those of you who don't, that secret is now out (and, man, do I feel relieved admitting it!). I have also been a regular in many IRC channels, both Fedora and non-Fedora related, though I am not a regular in #fedora -- in fact, I avoid #fedora for the same reasons Jeff outlines in his self-proclaimed "rant." That said, Jeff accurately points out a situation that has been a sticking point, and one that is being addressed and corrected, in the Fedora Project around the types of caustic responses that sometimes come up in #fedora. Also, while I don't frequent the channel and usually find answers to my questions elsewhere -- a good practice (and more on this later) -- I can say that it's something that has caused some of us in the Fedora Project some concern. However -- and you knew that was coming -- just as an observation on my part, it appears Jeff shot from the hip on this one rather than giving it some thought before writing. Believe me, I am not casting the first stone against this "sin" -- I speak from experience here: lots of experience in which I have fired off unretractable words that a walk in the redwoods or shooting a few hoops would have tempered into something more reasonable and justifiable. So, Jeff, with apologies, I think your blog goes over the top in the following ways: a.) #fedora has not cornered the market in a**hats by any stretch of the imagination, despite our mutual experience in this particular channel. The cantankerous tards who have an inflated self-worth exist in most IRC channels in every distro across the board -- maybe not in Bodhi, if their leader has any say in it (I sincerely hope) -- but I think it's more the nature of things like how IRC operates as well as a wake-up call for the need for change, positive change, in this regard. b.) It's a little myopic to judge the performance of a distro by the people "representing" it (and, arguably, any bad experience in any distro-related IRC channel does not accurately reflect the community as a whole, but rather reflects personality flaws in those responding to questions, regardless of whether they're chanops or not). If that were the case, I would never, ever, EVER use PCLinuxOS, since I have had the same experience seeking information from them that we have had with Fedora (and I do have a box in the lab with PCLOS). c.) An aside: When I first started using Linux, I was told to read this tome by Eric S. Raymond and Rick Moen: "How to Ask Questions the Smart Way" which lives here: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html (editor: repaired link) Why this isn't a README in all distros is a mystery, but it should be. I am not suggesting that Jeff asked the wrong question here, but often times questions are not asked in the most efficient or direct way. But as Jeff points out in his blog, we don't know the circumstances that the user is facing in finding out an answer, but it does help immensely to ask the right question. Immensely. d.) Another aside: I can't imagine Jared Smith of Fedora or Jono Bacon of Ubuntu firing off a rant like this. As a project leader for what I think is an up-and-coming distro, I hope you understand, Jeff, that as a project leader, you're in the bigs now and what you say and do reflect on your project for better or worse. For those of you who have gotten this far, thanks for staying awake. I'll now put on my Nomex and feel free to flame away. [Edited to fix the spelling of "cantankerous."] |
| eracc May 06, 2011 2:27 PM EDT |
Quoting:c.) An aside: When I first started using Linux, I was told to read this tome by Eric S. Raymond and Rick Moen: "How to Ask Questions the Smart Way" which lives here: lcafiero, That is an excellent point. I have also wondered why this information about asking "smart questions" is not linked as a README on all Linux desktops. |
| Steven_Rosenber May 06, 2011 2:42 PM EDT |
I commented on Jeff's blog and will write the same here. When I was running Fedora 13, I found the Fedora Forum to be very welcoming and helpful: http://www.fedoraforum.org/ |
| flufferbeer May 06, 2011 3:31 PM EDT |
@lcafiero, I agree w/ you that Jeff is over the top on the Fedora comments. These coming from the Lead Developer of the increasingly successful Bodhi distro competitive to Fedora?? C'mon Jeff, stop trying to bludgeon your IT-readers with the big Stick while withholding the Carrot! Really, "Linux help nazis" and "jerks"?????? With that lashing-out attitude, good luck on getting some critical assistance from other online users as well as attracting Bodhi users away from Fedora!! Yeah, REAL smart move.... My 2c here. |
| jdixon May 06, 2011 4:22 PM EDT |
> #fedora has not cornered the market in a**hats by any stretch of the imagination Not even close. Both Debian and Slackware have their share, just to name two. |
| tuxchick May 06, 2011 4:49 PM EDT |
In the olden days the Qmail lists were the indisputable A**hat Overlords of the Galaxy, where people who claimed they had no time to help noobs had unlimited time to flame them. In the early days of Mplayer they were known for being rather grinchy, but the all-time champs are still those old Qmail peeps. I've never thought of Fedora as being particularly obnoxious. The forums and lists are pretty good. Maybe this IRC channel is the "special" place. |
| lcafiero May 06, 2011 5:04 PM EDT |
@flufferbeer - Let me stress that Jeff DOES have a legitimate gripe about #fedora, much to Fedora's chagrin. But I completely agree with you that "Linux help Nazis" and other name-calling is a bit strong, and less than diplomatic for someone who leads another project (which, incidentally, I'm downloading and planning to try out later). @jdixon - Thanks for pointing that out. I have been visiting #debian lately for Squeeze info and, at times, things get a tad terse there. Also, thanks, Steven: That link is a good place for Fedora info, and it's where I go (more often than not) when I need help. I failed to mention that earlier, so thanks for the assist. |
| Jeff91 May 06, 2011 5:19 PM EDT |
Meh, I need to no longer post 1) After 11pm 2) When Upset Needless to say I was super annoyed that my hard drive was dieing and then #fedora didn't help any. When I get back to my house this evening I'll add a tidbit to the post mentioning the fedora forums and that obviously the IRC channel doesn't represent all Fedora users. I was actually going to take the post down this morning and then I saw it had 20 some comments already >.< ~Jeff Hoogland |
| jdixon May 06, 2011 5:40 PM EDT |
> Meh, I need to no longer post Jeff, we all make that mistake at least once in our lives. Some of us far more. :) |
| azerthoth May 06, 2011 6:26 PM EDT |
Its no secret that I have been known to respond poorly in certain circumstances on IRC. I would like to point out that asking `why` someone is doing something in a particular way is not an unreasonable question. Spend day in and day out helping people who half the time get themselves into their trouble by inventing new and interesting ways to accomplish a task. Determining the reason, and perhaps an alternate method that is safer than the one intended is not in and of itself a**hatery. It can be that someone is trying to make the extra effort to make sure that what your planning to attempt is not self destructive in nature. Just maybe someone was trying to help and teach in a safe manner. In your specific case, you were on a reasonable and proper path. So the question is, did you specify the what you were doing and why or were you relying on their telepathy to determine your level of competence and ability? If you spelled out what you were doing and why, and still got the glib response then your annoyance is well justified. If not, then not so much. I know that when someone comes in and out of the blue asks how to give their GUI file manager root access, it raises a great big warning flag for me. I would have asked why too. |
| lcafiero May 06, 2011 6:52 PM EDT |
@jdixon -- At least once . . . a month, maybe, for some of us? :-) I definitely fall into the "far more" category, and I'm working really, really hard on that. @Jeff91 -- I hear you loud and clear on the late night responses when upset. BTW, I'll be giving Bodhi a test run this weekend and blogging about it. Watch this space. |
| tracyanne May 06, 2011 7:33 PM EDT |
@Jeff, don't take the post down, I'm quite sure most, and by that I mean almost all, readers have the nouse to work out, for themselves, that you are talking about a specific instance, attaching a cavaet to it, as I'm sure you are about to, for those who can't work it out, is all that is needed. I thought it was a good post that highlighted an issue that exists, in general, and needs addressing. |
| azerthoth May 09, 2011 11:12 AM EDT |
Why people sometimes take me as brusque, instead of answering a question that whose answer may be inconvenient some instead just ignore and move on. Or get bent out of shape and attack the question itself, or just ignore it. None of those things make the question go away for course, but in our minds we do nothing wrong in ignoring it and making pretend it was never asked. Its just better if we can make it S.E.P. |
| hkwint May 09, 2011 12:20 PM EDT |
I think TA is spot on Jeff, just put a short 'header' above the article you were upset and tired when you wrote that and people will probably understand. Most of the times, taking it down draws more attention and is even more reason for people to be upset than offering a little bit of apologies and explaining the state you were in when typing. It's what I do on LXer forums when having been a bit too emotional because of stuff going on in 'real world offline life', and most LXer'ers are fine with it - it seems. |
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