Helios - right again
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 27, 2011 12:40 AM EDT |
A convincing argument why geeky terms such as "mount point" have no place in the computing environment of regular users, and why app names like the GIMP undercut everything the free, open-source desktop is trying to do. |
| Ridcully Apr 27, 2011 3:53 AM EDT |
I'd also like to support Helios (and Steven's comment above) over the need to alter the dreadful name of "GIMP". Probably not more than a month or so ago I posted somewhere either on this site or on LXT, my feelings as regards the uselessness of "GIMP" as the name of the package. My original focus was that the name of "GIMP" means nothing to a new comer to Linux, but this previously unknown aspect of Helios' work needs to be brought to the GIMP team's attention immediately. Does the team really want to wear the shame of making disabled children's lives even more uncomfortable ? Or adults for that matter ? |
| dinotrac Apr 27, 2011 9:14 AM EDT |
Of course he's right, and it goes to a larger problem in the free software world, the one that's given us the "wonders" of KDE4, and, if some early reviews are to be believed, similar wonders in GNOME 3: There aren't enough grownups around and, if there are, too many developers are too self-absorbed to listen. |
| JaseP Apr 27, 2011 9:46 AM EDT |
It's the desire to innovate & change, for the sake of innovation & change. Couple that with developers' desires to be "clever" & you have got a pretty good handle on the problem. |
| dinotrac Apr 27, 2011 9:52 AM EDT |
@JaseP : Nope. It's the smug narcissism of those who think they're too smart to have to listen to all the "boring" folks out there. Last I looked, Apple was considered one of the most innovative tech companies out there. Their claim to fame? Approachable cool. |
| tuxchick Apr 27, 2011 10:56 AM EDT |
Gnome, as the supposedly 'easy' desktop, has been driving me batty for ages. Like no easy 'undo' functions, and it hides everything. For example, changing the desktop wallpaper-- where are wallpapers stored? When you click on a new one it instantly changes and then where is the old one? Good question! Or when Gnome doesn't know which app to open a file with, it drops you into your home dir instead of the application menu. Thanks Gnome! WTF is in my home dir that will help with this? Ponies? My current fave peeve: @$#@$##!(*^^%$%$@!$@# video. Good luck if your Nvidia or Nouveau driver don't work, or if they don't pick the correct screen resolution, and nvidia-settings/ Xorg -configure fail, assuming you're cunning enough to know to try those, because you're on your own bub hahahaha. How many old of you old coots remember the excellent Red Hat X configurator? We've gone backwards. Modelines? DRM? Give me a freaking break. Gnome is inconsistent with names in the system menu. Sometimes it's some candyass thing like "Text Editor", which is ever so helpful when you have multiple text editors, and sometimes it actually tells something useful like "Medit text editor." Ken makes great points and he is right. Usability is not continual releases of Klever New Krap. |
| hkwint Apr 27, 2011 11:26 AM EDT |
Well, if one can take Debian and alter the name and ship as a "different distro", then why not GIMP? TC: Xorg -configure failing: That's exactly what happened on Natty! In the old days, you could bail out and reside to VESA, but these days it takes rocket science and CLI-fu to do so. I'm writing an article on the topic. Or planning to. Wait, think I should do it today! |
| dinotrac Apr 27, 2011 11:39 AM EDT |
Hans -- One actually could do that, but one would need a big enough stick so that the world doesn't look at you with a blank stare when you mention it. For example: Ken produces HeliosArt, a re-branded version of GIMP that chases all the badness away. He even manages, in all of the spare time that he has, to keep up with updates to the core GIMP. All is well until one of his young recipients needs help and goes to Google HeliosArt. Might find something, but not nearly so mush as for this other thing called the GIMP. It's something Canonical can do. After all, nobody uses the term Linux any more when they really mean Ubuntu, right? |
| tuxchick Apr 27, 2011 11:52 AM EDT |
Quoting: A convincing argument why geeky terms such as "mount point" have no place in the computing environment of regular users It sounds pervy anyway, like male and female couplers, and master/slave configs. Makes me wonder about the people who invent the terminology. **edit** I just remembered the worst name of all-- Con Kolivas' BFS. Inside jokes should stay inside, methinks. |
| JaseP Apr 27, 2011 12:15 PM EDT |
Which reminds me, I am going to attempt a few kernel patches for a Karmic install on a Viliv S5... I figured I'd use BFS & throw that patch into the mix. BFS isn't something an ordinary user has to know about though,... |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 27, 2011 12:32 PM EDT |
I logged in with TWM today instead of GNOME. Fast! |
| hkwint Apr 27, 2011 1:30 PM EDT |
I think if the kernel developers had taken CK's patches more seriously, CK himself might have taken naming his patches more seriously. Maybe it has to do something with being Ozzie - my past readings on this forum once suggested so - I dunno. |
| dinotrac Apr 27, 2011 1:44 PM EDT |
hans -- If there is one saving grace to kernel patches, it's that end users need never know a damned thing about them. Much harder with applications. |
| skelband Apr 27, 2011 5:11 PM EDT |
I didn't really understand his problem with the name GIMP. I understand that the name is not particularly informative as to what it does, but we see unusual nomenclature all the time in real life. What about the names of car models? Accent, Solo, Mondeo... none of them actually sounds like it's a car. What about drugs? Tylenol, if you'd never heard of it before, would you realise it was a painkiller? Some of the names of packages can be a bit dense but I don't think it is worse in computing than any other area of life where the marketing types are involved. |
| gus3 Apr 27, 2011 5:28 PM EDT |
"Gimp" is already a slang term for someone's bad leg, which makes them unable to walk normally... or at all. The term may be neutral, but is more often a put-down. It is never a compliment. If someone called Itzhak Perlman by that name, and he smacked that person across the head with one of his crutches, I would cheer. |
| JaseP Apr 27, 2011 5:31 PM EDT |
Quoting: I didn't really understand his problem with the name GIMP. It's because the people he helps often suffer from physical disabilities, a/k/a "gimps" in cold-hearted slang. He cannot very well give a computer that has a package of that name installed to a pre-teen with an expectedly fatal set of disabilities. Besides, the name is just stupid. It'd be better if it were; "GnIEP," for "GNU Image Editing Program," or "GnuP," for "GNU Paint." The name, the "Fox" logo and all do not describe the program at all. At that point it's better to have a nonsense anagram than a potentially insulting one. |
| dinotrac Apr 27, 2011 7:07 PM EDT |
@JaseP -- Yup. |
| dinotrac Apr 27, 2011 7:11 PM EDT |
@skelband -- Not an apt comparison, for a viariety of reasons: 1. You won't find a car named gimp, for much the same reason that the South American edition of the Chevy Nova got it's name changed years ago (No va is no go in Spanish). Those folks are business to sell cars. 2. And they do sell them. They advertise and market and do all kinds of cool stuff that the GIMP folks don't. 3. They are sold **ahem** at car dealerships. 4. When you look at one, you know what it is and what it does. You don't know what software is and does unless you bring it up and use it or somebody tells you about it, but 5. Even that isn't a very good reason to be insensitive to the impression your "cleverness" will have on others. |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 27, 2011 7:48 PM EDT |
They should change the name. And allow for non-destruction AND editing of the IPTC metadata in JPEGs. Either one would make me happy. Both = really, really, money-giving, evangelizing happy. |
| Ridcully Apr 27, 2011 9:35 PM EDT |
@ skelband, and for info to dino: Here in Australia, Mitsubishi markets a large and "snazzy" 4WD called the "Pajero". They get away with that name because we don't speak Spanish.......try googling "pajero slang Spanish"........it's most definitely not complimentary and those in the know look at the Pajero drivers and wonder if they would be horrified if they knew what the car's name implies. The negative connotations for the word GIMP are more or less parallel if not as coarse. I like Jase P's idea, and in any event, why not call it "GNU Paint" or "GNUPaint" if you must have one word ? It's quite a good and unique name I think, and it is now descriptive in that you are informed as to what the software does. |
| dinotrac Apr 28, 2011 2:10 AM EDT |
@Ridcully - For some people, it's a pejorative. For others, it's rising to the occasion. Any time, any place, all hands on deck. |
| BernardSwiss Apr 28, 2011 2:41 AM EDT |
Well, gosh, I don't know! Maybe the fact that it is after all in the 'Graphics' menu is a kinda big hint? And if one just lets the mouse hover over the menu item for just a second, perhaps an informative little info 'tool tip' type box pops up near the cursor to elaborate on just exactly what that selection does? Admittedly, many adults already know far too much about computers to gain any useful benefit from such 'hints', and consequently often have great problems wrestling with these impenetrable things -- but the kids usually don't even notice how very clever this is, as they blithely get on with just using the application(s). I'm not saying Helios is entirely wrong -- for example his comments about terminology like 'mount point', and the suggestion for drawing attention to choosing the document format, were particularly apt. But seriously, how much of the blame can Linux proponents take (or should they take) for some peoples' biases against "not how I'm used to", or the disinclination of some people to use their brains or even their eyes? There is room for improvement. But some stumbling-blocks will never be (can never be) solved by any amount of fine-tuning or "making things easier for newbies". |
| dinotrac Apr 28, 2011 8:45 AM EDT |
BernardSwiss -- Umm...if it IS in the Graphics menu. Some distros don't include it in the default install. And no, Helios is not entirely wrong. He's not even a little bit wrong. GIMP is a juvenile name kept around by juvenile mentalities who don't much seem to care about gaining broader acceptance of their work. Note -- The "juvenile" part is my addition, not Ken's. He's much more gracious than I am. |
| JaseP Apr 28, 2011 8:56 AM EDT |
My wife's first reaction to the name was that it was juvenile & stupid as well. Heck, even "gnu-imp" would be better. |
| dinotrac Apr 28, 2011 9:58 AM EDT |
@JaseP - Yup. In fairness, the GIMP was originally a project by a couple of college kids, and there is the argument that it's hard to change a name once something is known... but IT AIN'T THAT HARD! It's not even cool as a smug little joke among developers. One of the best programmers I knew as an industry pup (and we are talking 25-30 years ago) typed with his feet because he couldn't use his arms. I can tell you one thing -- we didn't make gimp jokes. |
| jdixon Apr 28, 2011 11:59 AM EDT |
> ...and there is the argument that it's hard to change a name once something is known... Some one should try telling that to the Firefox team, which went through at least 3 names before they settled on Firefox. |
| dinotrac Apr 28, 2011 12:08 PM EDT |
@jdixon -- Yup, and, let's be honest: How big a brand is The Gimp, anyway? Seems to me that it spawns the reaction "Well, it ain't Photoshop". Maybe they should launch 2.8 as SpectacularGraphicsGizmoFromTheHeavens 1.0. |
| hkwint Apr 28, 2011 3:10 PM EDT |
Quoting:How big a brand is The Gimp, anyway? Yesterday or so I found myself trying Natty. And as Ubuntu-noob, the thing about it which I liked, is the absence of 'weird' names. I wanted to scan some image and mail it. So I found something called 'scan utility' or so, no weird name like "sane" or "xsane" which Ubuntu-noobs like me wouldn't know about. Just plain 'what it does' in the menu. I think this works pretty well. They could make a kind of 'shortcut' / start-menu item and call it 'image manipulation' and point it to GIMP. Or wait, maybe they did, let me boot back into Natty to answer that one. I think such a simple issue - descriptive names in the menus instead of the dev-chosen names - goes a long way to solving the perceived problems. |
| dinotrac Apr 28, 2011 3:53 PM EDT |
@hans -- I have to agree. Of course, when the Gimp comes up, you get smacked with the name. |
| skelband Apr 28, 2011 4:19 PM EDT |
Weird, I've never seen the word Gimp used in that context.
I've seen "gippy" as in 'my gippy leg'. Is it an Americanism? |
| jdixon Apr 28, 2011 4:39 PM EDT |
> Is it an Americanism? Good question. It's not in the Cambridge or Macmillan online dictionaries, while it is in Merriam Webster. However, it's also in the British slang dictionary at http://www.peevish.co.uk/slang/ I'd say it's probably more common in the US, but also known in Britain. |
| gus3 Apr 28, 2011 6:43 PM EDT |
GNU Advanced Image Tool: GAIT. So even the kids with limited mobility can have a Gait. |
| jdixon Apr 28, 2011 7:18 PM EDT |
> GNU Advanced Image Tool Gnu Graphics Editor. Simpler is better. |
| flufferbeer Apr 28, 2011 8:23 PM EDT |
I like BOTH of the names immediately above; GAIT and GGE. Seems to me that GIMP is too wimpy. (Actually, doesn't it now seem obvious that "gimp" and "wimp" look and are pronounced ALMOST EXACTLY alike?!) Anyway, just throwing in my brief 2c in here... |
| skelband Apr 29, 2011 10:54 AM EDT |
@jdixon: "...but also known in Britain." I looked around in all the dictionaries I have in the house and only one mentions the word in this context and it states it as American usage. Also we have "sex slave" and a "hank of yarn". :D Although the guy(s) (Peter Mattis I believe) who came up with the initial concept and name were American and therefore would probably be aware of the usage, it is often not clear how a name translates elsewhere. I am reminded of the (probably urban myth) of Rolls Royce when trying to come up with the name for their next product in the "Silver XXX" line of cars, where Silver Mist was seriously considered. Turns out that it doesn't work so well in Germany. ;) |
| helios Apr 29, 2011 7:14 PM EDT |
LOL...I threw my girlfriend's sister into the "mist" when I lived in Germany....right after a good rain. And for fair disclosure, the mono app "pinta" we might use in place of "GIMP"...pinta in Spanish is also the name of a nasty skin disorder found in Central America and Northern Mexico... So yeah, one place where a name is benign can hold a whole new meaning in another, but that still does not negate the fact that it still offends or hurts someone. We're working on a rebrand now...We will call it Art Imp. Besides, as I tried to make clear: Will this have any bearing or impact on getting app names changed? No, probably not and that's not my intent. What I would like to see happen is some simple forethought. forethought in how we present our GUI, how we present our language, and ultimately, how we present ourselves. Hopefully, moving forward people will give more serious thought to what they name their apps. And not for any offensive reasons...It's hard to take a project or piece of software seriously when it sounds like it was named at a bong party. |
| tracyanne Apr 29, 2011 7:40 PM EDT |
Quoting:Gnu Graphics Editor. Simpler is better. Gnu PhotoEdit or just PhotoEdit, there's already Gnu PhotoPrint, or more commonly PhotoPrint. So why not |
| helios Apr 29, 2011 8:02 PM EDT |
Cause it does way more than just photos. |
| tracyanne Apr 29, 2011 8:12 PM EDT |
So dose PhotoShop. Why must we so damned pedantic |
| Scott_Ruecker Apr 29, 2011 8:27 PM EDT |
Ok, I am finally going to weigh in on this.. GNU..as in saying it or combing it with anything else..sucks. Its stupid to say and anyone who hears you say it thinks its stupid. Please can we let it go? And no I don't care what RMS thinks about it either..the devs are and will continue to receive the credit they deserve. Anything that does not use the GNU..will by virtue of not using it..not suck as bad. |
| Ridcully Apr 30, 2011 4:12 AM EDT |
For Scott: All of which shows my archaic language base........I never pronounced GNU as geh-noo, I always used the original pronounciation of "new" (or it might be "noo" - I can't read phoentic script)........but in any event the "G" is silent......So my idea of GNUPaint, would be pronounced as "new paint" (or noo paint). It's why I ran with the idea at first 'cause it sounds so nice. Frankly, I don't give a damn what the thing is called, as long as it becomes something relevant to what it does (but NOT as an acronym that gives offence).......And I personally think it is time that was an over-riding criterion for the names of software packages.....so many of them are either irrelevant to what the package does (eg. vi, which apparently is short for "visual" which does NOT describe what the package does as far as I am concerned), or they additionally sound as if the person making up the name was either having a night on the town and jotted it down between doses of beer or gin (I won't profane good scotch on this one) or was suffering the morning after symptoms of such a night and got things scrambled.. |
| dinotrac Apr 30, 2011 7:24 AM EDT |
@ridcully - I will be a little more generous --- If people really want to call their software something stupid (though, preferably, not offensive), that's ok so long as: 1) They really don't care if anybody uses it, or 2) are willing to spend gazillions marketing it, just like the big boys. Or, I suppose, 3) Take no offense if somebody else forks it and offers it up under a name that makes sense. |
| Ridcully Apr 30, 2011 8:04 AM EDT |
Bless you dino.......I guess I was a "bit abrasive"; I fell asleep over the keyboard after I wrote the above. It's about 3/4 hour later (perhaps), and I have just resumed "compos mentis" [feel free to disagree... :-) ]. It's amazing how indignant one can be through the effects of: 1. the need for sleep; and 2. a darn good Cabernet Merlot. Oh, and 3: As far as I am concerned, you are probably darn right in your summation. |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 30, 2011 8:22 AM EDT |
To All: Dino: "The Voice of Reason", ipso facto mutiverses* exist. YBT * I just knew there was a simple method to verify one of the cosmological predictions of string theory. |
| Ridcully Apr 30, 2011 8:41 AM EDT |
For TxtEdMacs. I can't resist this........ummm......"multiverses" ? Or "muted universes".......???? PS.....don't you dare change the above. :-) LOL. |
| Scott_Ruecker Apr 30, 2011 12:37 PM EDT |
I guess my point is, whether you pronounce the hard 'G' or not using it in an acronym almost anyone who sees it will. And trying to work it into every name for a program that uses GNU software has given us some really bad names and no good ones. Its time to let it go and start over naming the programs we use to something that is at the very least not stupid..or makes you sound stupid saying it to strangers. |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 30, 2011 1:45 PM EDT |
Ridcully, I presume your name stands for Ridiculing Me. Simple explanation, when I saw an errant letter I backspaced too vigorously. The "l" was there originally. Thus, I stand muted. YBT P.S. Just to please you I will not edit and with certainty add another, different blooper. However, we must execute all possibilities to fill all these multiuniverses, unless we have a sticker in the crowd that points out the variance of the values of physical constants precludes most from existing. |
| Ridcully Apr 30, 2011 6:10 PM EDT |
For Scott......yes and agreed. Point very well made and an aspect I hadn't even thought of. I bows to the voice of authority on that one. For TxtEdMacs........Hey, I hadn't thought of that implication, or even "stringing you along" (good night's sleep does wonders)...but even if I had........naaaah. Not my style. But the thought of you "muted" - never !! I always look for your delightful inserts/insights.......May TxtEdMacs appear in every part of the multiverse in every possible way, and never, never be constant, other than possessing your style and wit. |
| dinotrac Apr 30, 2011 9:22 PM EDT |
@Ridcully -- Give credit where credit is due. TxtEdMacs does demonstrate high levels of style and wit, each of which has been honed in vain efforts to emulate the master of both who shall, due to my extraordinary and all-too-rare humility, remain nameless. |
| Fettoosh Apr 30, 2011 10:16 PM EDT |
Going back to a more serious mode: It seems like GIMP is a lousy name and should be changed, The new version with single window is a golden opportunity to do that. Why not Lxer make an official open request and suggest some good names? My suggestion are:
|
| Ridcully May 01, 2011 12:00 AM EDT |
@ dinotrac -- Words fail me. Your Honour, the defence simply *must* resign in the face of such erudite evidence of undeniable veracity. I cannot even begin to hypothesise as to the identity of the individual to whom you are inferring, but with such clearly implied ability, he has to be amazing. I admire your reticence and care for the anonymity of this superb Mentor. Obviously TxtEdMacs is a modern day Telemachus ? :-) For Fettoosh, my feelings are always that the name as written should reflect the use of the application if possible - but that's just me. |
| dinotrac May 01, 2011 4:55 AM EDT |
Telemachus, eh? Could be, but I suspect that our poor striving Txt's association with Homer consists mainly of an all-too-frequent need to shout "Doh!". |
| helios May 01, 2011 9:57 AM EDT |
Take no offense if somebody else forks it and offers it up under a name that makes sense. But what constitutes a "fork"? Isn't substantial and meaningful code change or additional/improved features implicit in a fork? Can a simple re-branding of an application be considered a legal fork? That is easy enough and we are working to that end now but we only intend to use it internally within the HeliOSphere. I wouldn't consider our re-branding of Gimp a fork...simply a renaming of the app. I need to check into the legalities against the GPL prior to pulling the trigger. |
| dinotrac May 01, 2011 10:04 AM EDT |
What is this notion of a "legal" fork? If the code is GPL'd, you have the right to re-distribute it and to change it and to call it what you will. You may, in fact, be obligated to call it what you will to avoid potential trademark problems. That's actually true of most free licenses. Remember xfree86? They're still around, but people are using xorg these days, which started out as little more than a simple re-branding. Ditto for IceWeasel, Debian's version of Firefox. LibreOffice is now diverging in sgnificant from OpenOffice, but didn't start out that way. |
| helios May 01, 2011 10:26 AM EDT |
OK, and that is what I thought but as usual the devil is in the details and my old eyes often cannot read the small print...or comprehend the legal forked tongue. All-Righty then...we will go to the community via Blog of helios and solicit the best name for our "fork" of GIMP...to include splash screens etc. So it is written, so shall it be done. |
| Fettoosh May 01, 2011 11:25 AM EDT |
Quoting:we will go to the community via Blog of helios and solicit the best name for our "fork" of GIMP Ken, I actually wrote a suggestion to post on your blog since you made the good argument for the change. I changed my mind last minute because I knew you would be very busy and don't need more things to add to your plate. I am glad you are talking this on and it is worth the effort, not only for GIMP and many other apps. Quoting:my feelings are always that the name as written should reflect the use of the application if possible - but that's just me. I agree. And I also believe that developers and long time users like acronyms. Mine were quick and dirty start and I am sure someone else can come up with much better ones. |
| helios May 01, 2011 11:36 AM EDT |
Agreed...there should be at least a cognitive pathway between the app name and what the app does, at least in a perfect world. sure there are a ton of examples where not doing so has still succeeded but then again, most of them had some marketing oomph behind them, ie: firefox. We began the discussion by suggesting Art Imp but then again, we'll save that for tomorrow's blog. We'll also be looking to rebrand Guayadeque http://guayadeque.org/forums/index.php?p=/wiki/page/home Our prime mover for playing music in the HeliOS respin |
| BernardSwiss May 01, 2011 10:31 PM EDT |
For what it's worth, the "handicapped" people that I've known have never have never had any trouble with the word "gimp", (or expressions like "having a gimp(ed) leg"), and readily used it themselves. If someone would express surprise at this, they would respond with simple responses about "plain facts" or preferring to call a spade a "spade", rather than "excavating garden implement".
What they would object to would be having having such terms applied to them, pejoratively or as an insult. But I would be surprised if these "physically challenged" new users are complaining about a computer graphics program/project calling itself "The GIMP" ; in my experience it's more likely they'd be pleased or amused -- or both. Some overprotective, politically correct types, however, might take offence, supposedly on the "victims" behalf. Balanced against this, at least as many of the affected would chiefly be irritated by this coddling to protect their supposedly fragile egos from the English language. So who is being offended, and protected? But heck, my experience doesn't exactly make for a scientific, representative or significant random sample (and besides, maybe those Texans are, contrary to stereotype, really delicate, fragile hothouse flowers, needing shelter from every unpleasant aspect of reality). My acquaintances could be completely atypical. I don't think so, but I could be wrong, But there's a fair bit of unquestioned assumption being accepted quite blindly, here. Maybe somebody could, like, actually find out first, whether these assumptions are actually merited? - - - I'm not trying to start a flame war here. It's an honest question -- Just who's discomfort, exactly, are we really alleviating? |
| Ridcully May 02, 2011 12:14 AM EDT |
@BernardSwiss.......I read your post. You are absolutely entitled to that view. Some questions: 1. Have you read what Helios wrote and the implications of this name ? 2. "Let's Pretend" for a moment.........it's your little girl. Would you change anything to protect her if you could ? Just a couple of thoughts. |
| helios May 02, 2011 7:13 AM EDT |
Following the logic stated above, then I have some names that should never offend anyone: TARD - Total Art Rendering Device FAG - Full Art Graphics Or we can skip the acronyms...Why not "colostomy bag" or "chemo therapy"? Maybe somebody could, like, actually find out first, whether these assumptions are actually merited? We've already had more than enough negative feedback from the parents of some of these kids...With the amount of disabled children I have to deal with, it has simply become a matter of decency and dignity. |
| TxtEdMacs May 02, 2011 7:44 AM EDT |
Hey Swiss Cheese, [Now uncharacteristically serious] Your points may be valid for some adults that are established professionals and those having a significant portion of their life time to build a sufficiently durable shell to ward off insults both intended and those not but implicitly there. Remember Ken is building machines for children, who are mostly on the lowest rungs of economic and social status. Using Gimp is just one more insult hurled their way. Absolutely unneeded and we are not talking in Politically Correct terms. [back to standard mode of silliness] YBT |
| jdixon May 02, 2011 8:06 AM EDT |
> Maybe somebody could, like, actually find out first, whether these assumptions are actually merited? Maybe some of us need to to. The rest of us have been around like enough to know. Yes, they're merited. |
| tracyanne May 02, 2011 10:01 AM EDT |
Personally I agree with BernardSwiss, changing the name of the GIMP because it might upset someone is the wrong reason. Changing it's name because it is meaningless... because it doesn't describe anything about what it does, is. |
| helios May 02, 2011 10:27 AM EDT |
changing the name of the GIMP because it might upset someone is the wrong reason. I'm not advocating the global rebranding of GIMP. The original developers are no longer involved in the program and it's maintained now by people from Gnome. Not gonna be a lot of movement there considering Gnome's record of ignoring their user base. When I have to walk into a room with a disabled child, changing the name of GIMP is the perfect reason...at least from my micro-perspective...and keep in mind, that is all I really care about at this point. GIMP will never be renamed if for nothing else, historical reasons and deference to the original developers. So be it...we will change it within our tiny sphere and move along. |
| Fettoosh May 02, 2011 10:58 AM EDT |
Personally, I believe that changing any name to alleviate any insensitivity towards many is
as good a reason as changing the names of apps for being meaningless or not indicative. |
| dinotrac May 02, 2011 12:55 PM EDT |
@traceyanne -- How about because it's offensive and hurtful to some, and not merely to the thin-skinned. How about because you'd rather see children use software instead of having their parents throw it out of the house? It's ok to want people to use what you produce. Believe it or not. |
| skelband May 02, 2011 1:55 PM EDT |
@helios: "We've already had more than enough negative feedback from the parents of some of these kids" "Had I not known that she suffered these afflictions, I would have marched into that house and found a great deal of discomfort in showing her how to use The Gimp." I don't want to cause offense, but I think BernardSwiss has a valid point here though. The Helios project does great work and I don't want to lessen that but one does have to wonder whose sentiments are being offended here. There is a great deal of pontificating about the outrage and embarrassment of the kids. So far, however, we have seen much evidence of the outrage of everybody other than those very people. The quotes above reveal this to be true. Kids are much more discerning than we give them credit for. They can quickly detect when someone is being deliberately offensive to them. There is a very real danger that we project our own discomfort onto children when in reality the projection is a justification for our own outrage which reveals our own prejudices. The same can be said of sexual matters. We see outraged adults decrying the exposure of breasts in public where "small children" can see them, and isn't it so disgusting? Those same children were getting their regular meals from the very same organs a few years earlier and didn't think anything of it and still wouldn't if those adults didn't influence them with their prejudiced ideas of modesty. I think the name is silly, but I think we are really blowing this out of all proportion. And I do think there is a real danger of parents saying, in a more nuanced way, to their disabled children, "Look at the name of the program, Harold. It is insulting you because the word can also be use as a term of insult to someone with your affliction. Do you feel as offended as I do?" I would be happy to take it as read if there have been real instances of a child being "independently" outraged by this name, but let's not confuse our outrage with theirs. |
| helios May 02, 2011 2:28 PM EDT |
I would be happy to take it as read if there have been real instances of a child being "independently" outraged by this name, but let's not confuse our outrage with theirs. Why would you even want to be the one to make that discovery? Why would you want to even approach an experiment like that? Or would you rather others do it for you and then report back....? See there's the rub. As long as it's wrapped safely into the findings of someone else, then it's all sanitary and benign. You can look upon the data "with interest" and go on. Those who have to actually sit in that chair, not so much. If you are willing to sit and do it 80 to 100 times a year and deal with it, power to you. I for one am not. |
| skelband May 02, 2011 2:38 PM EDT |
@helios "If you are willing to sit and do it 80 to 100 times a year and deal with it, power to you." Well, for the record, has it ever happened? What do the kids think about the name? Don't get me wrong guy. I think guys like you and your organisation and what you do are what make the human race worth being a part of. The point I make is a more general one about society and the way we portray our kids and their attitudes. I am a father of two great kids and the readiness with which they pick up our attitudes and prejudices is astonishing. And for the record, the fact that we feel embarrassed about the name speaks volumes about the appropriateness (or lack) of it and is as good a reason to change it as any I can think of. :D |
| dinotrac May 02, 2011 2:54 PM EDT |
skelband -- As a parent, I can attest that I would toss Helios out on his ear if he tried to bring in an app called "snaggletooth" -- something my daughter might or might not take offense at, but something I would never bother to discover. it's easy to see from some of these comments why free software doesn't have a bigger foothold in the computing world. Too many free software types just don't care enough grow the base. |
| tracyanne May 02, 2011 5:40 PM EDT |
Quoting:How about because it's offensive and hurtful to some, and not merely to the thin-skinned. Terribe reason. It's kneejerk, and it will lead to yet another stupid name, all in the cause of not upsetting someone. Quoting:How about because you'd rather see children use software instead of having their parents throw it out of the house? I'd love to see it used by lots of people, at the moment it's not even likely to be considered by most, not because it's "offensive", but because most have no idea whatinthell it is, or does. Quoting:It's ok to want people to use what you produce. Believe it or not. Damn right, that's why I advocate changing it's name to something more descriptive, like PhotoEdit, or ImageWorkshop, or even Free Photo Workshop |
| dinotrac May 02, 2011 7:00 PM EDT |
@ta - Sigh. Sometimes you amaze me. |
| tracyanne May 02, 2011 7:18 PM EDT |
@dino, lots of things are offensive to lots of small numbers of people, including the fact that I'm a dyke, does that mean I should stop being what I am or hide the fact, or pretend otherwise, just because it upsets some subset of the community? Even the word dyke offends some people, should I stop calling myself a dyke just because other dykes don't like it? Offense is more often taken than given. Change the name of the GIMP and Guayadeque because they are terrible names, that obscure the purpose of the program. Do the same to the multitudes of other Free Software applications with similarly horrendous names, not because the current name might offend someone, but because the name change can make the application more accessible to a greater number of people. |
| skelband May 02, 2011 7:19 PM EDT |
@dinotrac: "snaggletooth" And exactly what does that mean? I presume this is some kind of insult used in the US? As a Brit., it means nothing to me. Where do you stop? Do we ask Google to change their name because someone with bulbous eyes might think it is insulting to them (or more likely some adult pseudo-advocate)? AdInstruments produce software called "Scope". Did you know that the Spastics Society now calls itself Scope because of the negative connotations attached to the spastic name and the de rigueur playground insult is now "scopey" in the UK? Imagine the horror of a spastic kid having to use software with a name like that. Sorry, I'm with TA. You can't satisfy everyone. Helios are well within their rights to do what they are doing and if they feel the need, well that's fine by me. |
| dinotrac May 02, 2011 8:31 PM EDT |
@ta -- You are free to call yourself whatever you wish. That's not the issue. It's not even related to the issue. I don't care what you call yourself. I know women who refer to themselves as bitches, too. Why o why, though, would I call a piece of software either one of those things if I wanted it to be widely used? |
| dinotrac May 02, 2011 8:33 PM EDT |
@skelband - Where do we stop? With a little common sense, not that much of that is to be found in the software community. |
| tracyanne May 02, 2011 8:58 PM EDT |
Quoting:You are free to call yourself whatever you wish. That's not the issue. It's not even related to the issue. Ah but is is related to the issue, the call is to change the name of the GIMP because it offends some people. Quoting: don't care what you call yourself. I know women who refer to themselves as bitches, too. Oh I'm that too. Quoting:Why o why, though, would I call a piece of software either one of those things if I wanted it to be widely used? If you want lots of people to use those applications, then the names are terrible, they are terrrible NOT because someone might get upset or offended, but because the names obscure the purpose of the software. Naming Free Software in a way that conveys it's purpose and functionality is the important issue. And incidentally good descriptive names are less likely to cause people to take offense, bearing in mind that some people will take, not just a fence, but the whole paddock as well, anyway. |
| BernardSwiss May 02, 2011 9:51 PM EDT |
Most of what I would have replied, has already been said (thanks especially Skelband and Tracyanne).
The only thing I would add is that, in my admittedly limited experience, many young people (most, really) are more troubled -- or offended -- by the assumptions underlying this "protective" attitude. The effort to ameliorate this anticipated harm is ironically counter-productive and may even become a self-fulfilling prophecy. That is to say, if the mere words that simply describe their condition are somehow so shameful, if the mere reference is so intrinsically denigrating, so taboo, then the condition itself is must by implication be as bad or worse (something to be covered-over or at least not openly acknowledged, because it reflects badly on them). While these kids don't want life to revolve around their "handicap", they don't much like pretending that the proverbial elephant in the living room isn't really there, either. As to Helios's concern that (some) parents might take offence, and thus throw the whole computer or Linux OS out for perceived insult to or perceived psychological harm caused to their child -- perhaps he's right (though you won't be surprised to learn that I personally suspect the parent's attitude here causes greater harm). If I had understood Helios's comments to be essentially about concern over this plausible adverse reaction on the part of these parents, I wouldn't have bothered to comment on this issue at all. But I don't see this being a realistic evaluation of the childrens' probable response, except conceivably in a minority of cases where the young person concerned has been thoroughly conditioned by an overprotective parent. Anyways, this whole discussion is pretty much making a mountain out of a molehill. But since Helios says he has in fact had the issue raised by some of his recipients' parents, I can see that he has some real concern. I personally don't see much harm coming to "physically challenged" kids from seeing a good FOSS software (one might say empowering software) calling itself "GIMP", but I don't see much harm from changing the name, either. And as has already pointed out, there are, arguably, much better reasons for considering a few name changes throughout the software collection. (I'm not convinced, but in this marketing-dominated world, where "Excel" or "Outlook", "Nero", "Safari", "Google" and "Skype" are considered perfectly clear and acceptable, but "Thunderbird" or "Evolution", "K3B" or "GnomeBaker", "Epiphany" and Ekiga are considered "obscure" and thus to be avoided, it is a point well worth considering). |
| Scott_Ruecker May 02, 2011 10:15 PM EDT |
Quoting:That is to say, if the mere words that simply describe their condition are somehow so shameful, if the mere reference is so intrinsically denigrating, so taboo, then the condition itself is must by implication be as bad or worse (something to be covered-over or at least not openly acknowledged, because it reflects badly on them). While these kids don't want life to revolve around their "handicap", they don't much like pretending that the proverbial elephant in the living room isn't really there, either. "It's a beautiful thing, the destruction of words.." - 1984 |
| jdixon May 02, 2011 10:28 PM EDT |
> Offense is more often taken than given. When something is a voluntary choice, such as your sexual orientation, yes. When it's not, such as the disability of a child, no. > "snaggletooth" ... And exactly what does that mean? Exactly what it sounds like. What part of snaggle and tooth is hard to understand? There was even a Hanna-Barbera cartoon character with the name, and they wound up changing it to Snagglepuss. > Where do you stop? When we don't offend our target audience. Ken has a rather unique target audience, with different needs than most. While it would be nice to have the name changed for everyone, it's essential for him and those he supports. |
| dinotrac May 02, 2011 10:55 PM EDT |
@assorted -- I am impressed by the lengths to which some people will go to be just plain moronic. I wonder, however, if the same attitudes would apply if the software were called The Faggot, or Jewboy, or some such thing. I could be wrong, but I suspect some of the attitudes being expressed are colored by the fact that the people expressing them don't happen to find "gimp" offensive. @ta: No. It is not remotely related to the issue. Take a little time to read the thread. Let the brain cells click in before the fingers start typing. No offense, of course. |
| tracyanne May 03, 2011 12:44 AM EDT |
@jdixon
Quoting:When something is a voluntary choice, such as your sexual orientation, yes. Is it? Did you choose to be hetrosexual? At what age did you make that conscious choice? Would you have been Homosexual if you hadn't made that choice? @dinotrac Quoting:I wonder, however, if the same attitudes would apply if the software were called The Faggot, or Jewboy, or some such thing. Well personally I'd have to ask one question of the name, "does it make it clear what the software's pupose is?" If the answer is no, then I'd try to get the name changed, otherwise, I'd leave it to those that want to take a fence. Quoting:No. It is not remotely related to the issue. Take a little time to read the thread. Let the brain cells click in before the fingers start typing. No offense, of course. Been flolowing from the start. And yes very closely related. It's about people taking offense and how some people feel the need to respond in a manner that validates the offense taken. When in the case of Software the criteria that should be followed first and foremost, and particularly with Free Software, because there is no marketing department, is that the name make clear the function. It's fine that Microsoft call their spreadsheet Excel, they marketed it agreesively, so people can know what it does, but Free Software has no such luxury available to it, so names like the GIMP, even though it is an Acronym for Gnu Image Manipulation Program, in general people are not aware of this, which is why a name that beter describes the application is necessary. Guayadeque is an even more pertinent demonstration of opaque application naming. |
| jdixon May 03, 2011 6:30 AM EDT |
> Is it? Yes. Preference does not equal action. > Did you choose to be hetrosexual? At what age did you make that conscious choice? Would you have been Homosexual if you hadn't made that choice? You're the one who made this a statement about your orientation, TA, not me. The details of my sex life are not your concern. |
| dinotrac May 03, 2011 7:05 AM EDT |
@ta - (and @jdixon) >Did you choose to be hetrosexual? Spelling aside, this time your brain cells are working properly. As a childhood fatty who was painfully painfully shy around girls, I lost weight and leaned up in a single boot-camp summer at a summer camp run by the Military College of South Carolina for it's alumni's children. I came back lean, muscular, and, it turns out, very attractive to people of both genders. I'd have been much less lonely if I could have chosen. Guys of all ages and girls came on to me all the time -- but I wasn't shy around guys. There was this girl named Pam I sat behind in English, and there was the Pastor's daughter, a really hot little brunette in biology, etc, etc,etc. Couldn't work up the courage to talk to any of them, and certainly couldn't ask one out. Guys asked me out, but that only made me uncomfortable. Fantasized relentlessly about the girls. Never about a guy. I never made that choice. It's just the way things were. Years later, when I finally worked through the worst of the shyness, that realization -- we're wired how we're wired -- let me be comfortable around gay friends. Some people are not comfortable with their own wiring. They need understanding and support. Some people are not comfortable with other people's wiring. They need serious help. |
| tracyanne May 03, 2011 9:22 AM EDT |
Quoting: Yes. Preference does not equal action. Of course, one should expect a statement like that from someone who is informed by Iron Age Superstitions and ignorance. |
| JaseP May 03, 2011 9:46 AM EDT |
I think some of the naming conventions from days past need to be re-examined, for sure. Things can be offensive without intending to be so. Programmers aren't generally known to be a very socially aware bunch. And society is much more tolerant than in years past, making terms that weren't as offensive, extremely offensive now. My own "wiring" issue, ADHD-Primarily Inattentive, is not so well understood & accepted, yet, unfortunately. But names for things like "The Gimp," contribute toward the problem... It shows insensitivity. And the very people that OSS needs to attract as early adopters are the otherwise disenfranchised, simply because they make better evangelists for OSS. After all, they're used to fighting for what they need & want... I wonder if my preferred distro adopted a software package it called "Lazy ADHD whiners," whether I would have gone distro shopping. That's the rough equivalent of "The Gimp," for the physically disabled. I bet I WOULD go distro/package shopping, if confronted with an offensive name. |
| gus3 May 03, 2011 11:51 AM EDT |
Could we please GET BACK ON THE BLANKETY-BLANK TOPIC?!? |
| dinotrac May 03, 2011 1:27 PM EDT |
@JaseP -- What you said. What befuddles me is the fact that anybody could find that remotely controversial. |
| TxtEdMacs May 03, 2011 1:30 PM EDT |
My Dear August Gus III, I will gladly fill in the blanks if you provide a few suggestions that are not too base or expose your peccadilloes in too explicitly [gross], detailed fashion. As long as we can keep it semi-clean I am at your service. YBT |
| Fettoosh May 03, 2011 1:47 PM EDT |
Heck. Does anyone remember what the topic was? |
| skelband May 03, 2011 4:05 PM EDT |
@jdixon: "Exactly what it sounds like. What part of snaggle ...do you not understand?" I think you are dropping into that irritating habit of thinking we are all Americans here. I do remember Snagglepuss on the TV when I was a kid, and I didn't know what it meant then either. Snaggle is not in any dictionary that I have here. @dinotrac: "I could be wrong, but I suspect some of the attitudes being expressed are colored by the fact that the people expressing them don't happen to find "gimp" offensive." Ah, now you get it. The truth is a small number of people in a minority of the world's computing community think (perhaps incorrectly) that an even smaller number *might* find the word offensive. The US is not the centre of the Universe contrary to what some may think. For the vast majority of Gimp users, the name is not remotely offensive even for those non-Americans with gammy legs. And, yes, I completely agree with Bernard again. Dodging around a word which in some other context might be taken as offensive by some people will be the death of our language. You can't use the word "gay" without eliciting titters of mirth from everyone in range. My son berated me for using the word "hoe" the other day because some of his friends joke about the similarity to "whore" (in some parts of the US again I believe). I find the whole "right-on" "token morale outrage" thing to be so yesterday. I just wish we could move on as a race, say what we mean, and not have to second-guess every possible connotation in every part of the world on the off-chance that we might upset someone somewhere. I will say no more. |
| jdixon May 03, 2011 4:33 PM EDT |
> ...one should expect a statement like that from someone who is informed by Iron Age Superstitions and ignorance... Whatever you say, TA. I don't care one way or the other about your decisions in the matter, and I don't really expect you to care about mine. That doesn't change the fact that we both have a lot more choice in the matter than a disabled child does in their ability walk. |
| dinotrac May 03, 2011 4:35 PM EDT |
skelband - I got it along along. I also get that, sometimes, we aren't as smart as we think we are. |
| jdixon May 03, 2011 5:03 PM EDT |
> I think you are dropping into that irritating habit of thinking we are all Americans here. Nope. I know better. Snaggle is derived from snag. A snaggletooth is a tooth which snags. I.e, one which projects from the others. |
| tracyanne May 03, 2011 5:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:That doesn't change the fact that we both have a lot more choice in the matter than a disabled child does in their ability walk. The difference is that a disabled person can't pretend they are not disabled. Clearly your Iron Age superstition informed world view would have it that those like myself choose to hide the fact of what we are, as clearly Your Iron Age Superstition informed world view finds us offensive, but that's an implement of torture you'll have to carry yourself. Quoting:The truth is a small number of people in a minority of the world's computing community think (perhaps incorrectly) that an even smaller number *might* find the word offensive. This is the real problem. Quoting:The US is not the centre of the Universe contrary to what some may think. Exactly, it's not, get over it, move on. Quoting:For the vast majority of Gimp users, the name is not remotely offensive even for those non-Americans with gammy legs. A good friend of mine has Cerebral Palsy... he's Spastic to use another name for the condition, he happily uses the GIMP, and is not in the least offended by the name. I would have to explain to him (although I'm sure that he's in some way aware of it, but it's not part of Australian slang) that Gimp is an Americanism for someone who has trouble walking, and that some yanks I know think this is offensive, and even then, he would not be offended, he would laugh. His comment would be something along the lines of "F*****g stupid Yanks". I can be quite certain of this because I know him very well. The point is the word is not in the least offensive to the majority of the worlds population. I would also guess that the people who have the greatedt problem with the word are those who aren't disabled. Quoting: Dodging around a word which in some other context might be taken as offensive by some people will be the death of our language. That more than anything is a major problem, the bowdlerisation of our language. Quoting:You can't use the word "gay" without eliciting titters of mirth from everyone in range. My partner an I usually respond to the use of the term "gay" when directed at us, or when used in reference to others like us, with a comment like "Yes we're very happy thank you." or "I'm sure they're quite happy" Quoting:My son berated me for using the word "hoe" the other day because some of his friends joke about the similarity to "whore" (in some parts of the US again I believe). There was even a stupid attempt, here in Australia, to have people stop saying "Merry Christmas Ho Ho Ho Ho" by those who are pseudo morally outraged, because "Ho" sounds like "Hoe" which is an slang term for "Whore" in some parts of the US. Quite rightly most Australians baulked at the suggestion. Quoting:I find the whole "right-on" "token morale outrage" thing to be so yesterday. I just wish we could move on as a race, say what we mean, and not have to second-guess every possible connotation in every part of the world on the off-chance that we might upset someone somewhere. We as a race would have to grow up, and discard our security blankets. Ain't gonna happen anytime soon. |
| BernardSwiss May 03, 2011 6:32 PM EDT |
Does anyone remember the (worldwide) derision engendered when the County of Los Angeles requested that equipment vendors avoid using the industry terminology "Master/Slave" in product descriptions and labelling (including harddrives and drive controllers? Didn't we marvel at the mind-set that could come up with such a notion? It rather reminds me of the unfortunate political consequences suffered by those (American) public figures careless enough to use the word "niggardly" in public (despite the fact that this ancient word has only a passing, coincidental resemblance to the much more recent "N-word")? And don't forget the frequently insurmountable obstacles facing the poor American school teacher, who wants to use Huckleberry Finn in the teaching American Literature or History. Come to think of it, there's been the odd dispute in FOSS circles about how unfriendly the Linux/FOSS environs are to women. In this light we obviously need to find a more gender-neutral name for the "man" command. I'm sure that a close look at the GNU and BSD (hopefully no one will take offence at the omission of "M") software environments, as well as FOSS in general, will turn up further, similar examples of blatant insensitivity requiring immediate correction. For example, we obviously should consider the desirability of (not) thoughtlessly using the term "fat" in naming Linux implementations of the Microsoft file system -- especially considering that we often refer to the filesystem in question in a distinctly derogatory manner. Inevitably, names such as "finger" will be seen by some as offensive too, even if not singling out any particular group. And what's with all these "K"s? Does "Qt" perhaps skirt too close to the male-chauvinist edge?. Does a programmer dare use the word "chink" in naming his/her firewall, penetration-testing suite or intrusion detection program? (And I just realized that "penetration testing" might be problematic, too). PS: I admire Helios's work, and I sympathize with his motives. I accept that he might even have a genuine problem that affects his efforts, even if it doesn't in fact directly affect those supposedly being harmed. But Really, where does it all end? |
| jdixon May 03, 2011 7:03 PM EDT |
> Clearly your Iron Age superstition informed world view would have it that those like myself choose to hide the fact of what we are... TA, absolutely nothing I've ever said, on this site or any other, would give any reasonable person that idea. But as you said: "Offense is more often taken than given." You see, as you and at least one other poster here have sometimes pointed out, I have a rather extreme political position. I believe in freedom. Not just free software, but in personal freedom. And I understand that true freedom means other people are free to take positions and actions I wouldn't. Your choice of life partners doesn't harm me or any other person in any way, and I wish you and yours the best; whether you believe that or not. |
| jdixon May 03, 2011 7:08 PM EDT |
> But Really, where does it all end? When Helios decides it ends. That's the beauty of Free software. He can make any changes he chooses. He can even argue for those changes to be adopted upstream. And if he convinces enough people, then they will be. But whether they are or not isn't important. What's important is that the software meets his needs , those of his users, and others like them. |
| tracyanne May 03, 2011 7:28 PM EDT |
@JD, if that is the case then clearly you are no follower of the Iron Age superstition I am refering to. Although your statements on choice certainly appear to mirror those made by such followers, as if the gender one is actually attracted to is a choice. But those who subscribe to the Iron Age superstition world view would follow that up by stating "you can choose not to act on that attraction", as if that were a choice someone not like me would even have to consider. You are correct on one thing, it ends when Ken decides, and in spite of all the rhetoric in this thread, it is up to him what he does with his build of Ubuntu. That does not mean we should ot change the name of the GIMP, and lots of other Free Software applications, for all the right reasons, that of making it (them) more accessible to a greater number of people, by making it more obvious in the name of the application what it or they are supposed to do. |
| jdixon May 03, 2011 11:21 PM EDT |
> ...as if that were a choice someone not like me would even have to consider The fact that you would or would not consider a choice doesn't make it less of a choice TA. I could choose tomorrow to stop eating or to stop paying my taxes. Those wouldn't be a particularly wise choices, but they are choices I'm capable of making, and which others have actually made in the past. Even that degree of remote choice isn't available to the kids Ken is talking about. > That does not mean we should ot change the name of the GIMP, and lots of other Free Software applications, for all the right reasons... Oh, I agree, and I even agree that you are correct that your reason applies to far more people than Ken's reason does. That doesn't make his reason wrong. |
| tracyanne May 03, 2011 11:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:The fact that you would or would not consider a choice doesn't make it less of a choice TA. I will rephrase, ....as if that were a choice someone not like me would be expected to consider. Quoting:Even that degree of remote choice isn't available to the kids Ken is talking about. As I have already said, the difference is that a handicapped person can't pretend they are not handicapped. So yes I and those like me have the choice of pretending we are not what we are, a choice that is not available to the handicapped. So I can pretend I am not what I am and avoid people taking offense, or I can be open about it, and risk people being offend. But that wasn't the point. The point was that all sorts of people are offended by all sorts of things, but that is no reason to pander to them. If you truely believe in absolute freedom then you would by definition leave them free to be offended, in whatever way they choose, as often as they want.... I do. |
| Fettoosh May 04, 2011 12:57 AM EDT |
Did this thread surpass the Guinness world record yet for the longest post? You guys don't really need to do that. |
| Scott_Ruecker May 04, 2011 1:42 AM EDT |
Is everyone ok in here? I think maybe we've strayed from the subject a little bit. The changing of the name a piece of software shouldn't really be this deep an issue. I really don't want to close this thread.. |
| jdixon May 04, 2011 6:22 AM EDT |
> I will rephrase, ... I already knew what you meant. And no, there's no reason you should have to consider the matter. > ...the difference is that a handicapped person can't pretend they are not handicapped. Oh, I'm sure they spend many hours dreaming about not being handicapped and occasionally even pretending they're not. It's just that reality doesn't work that way. > ...but that is no reason to pander to them. And that's what it comes down to, I guess. I see it as being polite to them. You see it as pandering. I'm not sure how to overcome that basic a divide. I think Scott may be correct and it's time to end the discussion. We're simply not getting anywhere. |
| tracyanne May 04, 2011 8:52 AM EDT |
:: shrug:: |
| JaseP May 04, 2011 9:14 AM EDT |
Agreed. Thread should be closed. The viewpoints are at an impasse. |
| helios May 04, 2011 9:37 AM EDT |
So the local rebrand of GIMP has been settled by JaseP ImpasseArt it is. |
| dinotrac May 04, 2011 9:45 AM EDT |
Ken - Youch! Although -- In the world of what passes for brand names these days, it ain't actually bad. |
| helios May 04, 2011 9:48 AM EDT |
JK If all the stars align right, the LXer editors will sift through all the submissions on the blog comments and pick us a winner. In the case of multiple choices, The HeliOS Directors will decide. |
| jacog May 04, 2011 9:58 AM EDT |
Perdonally I think FART is a great name. You can't spell it without "art". Similar logic could be applied to analysis tools. *nod* |
| jdixon May 04, 2011 9:58 AM EDT |
> Is everyone ok in here? I think everyone is fine Scott. The discussion, while not resolving anything, has been relatively cordial. I don't see any reason to close the thread. |
| JaseP May 04, 2011 11:42 AM EDT |
Quoting: So the local rebrand of GIMP has been settled by JaseP ImpasseArt it is. Hey, not so hasty there... There's; Gnu-Tard = GNU Total Art Rebranded Designer GAG = GNU Art Gizmo GING = Ging Is Not Gimp & BARF = Badly-named Art Rebrand Foundation All are on par with GIMP. PS: One better than GING; FINGER = Finger Is Not Gimp Entirely Rebranded |
| dinotrac May 04, 2011 12:04 PM EDT |
@JaseP You've done what I could not imagine possible: I'm now starting to like bland corporate naming: Photo Mule Pretty Painter but definitely not The Artist formerly known as GIMP |
| JaseP May 04, 2011 12:47 PM EDT |
Somebody should present those names to the GIMP Develop. Team, if they don't like those suggestions, THEN we can give 'em, "The FINGER." |
| helios May 04, 2011 1:09 PM EDT |
Yep: FART. Had that graphic in my blog Fast Art Rendering Tool And don't think for a moment I didn't seriously consider it. |
| TxtEdMacs May 04, 2011 1:19 PM EDT |
JaseP, You may not know of it, but finger is a command. However, like much of bash on Mint, seems not to be part of the current set loaded into bash. I checked: $ finger --help The program 'finger' can be found in the following packages: * finger * finger-ldap Try: sudo apt-get install <selected package> ___________________________________________________ I am uncertain I ever used it, but I remember reading command line jokes where it was used. Indeed the punch line may have matched your last line. YBT |
| jimbauwens May 04, 2011 1:23 PM EDT |
Finger is used to get stats of users on your computer, quite little handy tool :D (I never ever though of the name in that way) |
| Fettoosh May 04, 2011 2:26 PM EDT |
Quoting:(I never ever though of the name in that way) Neither did I, I am afraid to know what else is there. |
| steever May 04, 2011 6:41 PM EDT |
In the 10.10 Ubuntu menu, gedit is called "Text Editor". It used to be "gedit Text Editor" which while not offensive was confusing to casual users. If GIMP were set up so that in the menu it was called "Image Editor" instead of "GIMP Image Editor", that would be a great start. When GIMP starts up we get the flashscreen which has "GIMP" displayed prominently - easy to change a flashscreen. The title bar of the running application is GNU Image Manipulation Program - not offensive. So this appears to be something that could easily be corrected: change the name of the menu entry and change the flash screen. The GIMP devs should be able to do that easily enough by the time 2.8 rolls around (by 2020 ha ha). |
| JaseP May 04, 2011 11:51 PM EDT |
Quoting: You may not know of it, but finger is a command. Not in all CAPS, it's not... |
| TxtEdMacs May 05, 2011 6:04 AM EDT |
JaseP,Quoting:Not in all CAPS, it's not...Right, but my read command is preceded by an i, meaning ignore case. Thus, Case Closed: I am right as usual. YBT |
| JaseP May 05, 2011 8:42 AM EDT |
So we're both right. One more & we got ourselves a left... |
| TxtEdMacs May 05, 2011 9:08 AM EDT |
Quoting:So we're both right. One more & we got ourselves a left... Behind? or Out? or without anything? I give up, what is our reward for our sterling performances? YBT |
| hkwint May 05, 2011 10:21 AM EDT |
JaseP: An impasse is usually the beginning of an lengthy LXer thread, not the end! Ahum. |
| dinotrac May 05, 2011 10:35 AM EDT |
hans - LXer threads have ends? |
| gus3 May 05, 2011 12:04 PM EDT |
Oh dear, just as I was getting ready to throw fuel on the embers. Well, here goes anyway. Sorry, Scott. A lot of Free Software, including GNOME and KDE, already have some hefty work in them to be accessible to people with handicaps and disabilities. On-screen keyboards, speech synthesizers, high-contrast and low-contrast visual themes, large print, screen magnifiers. IIRC, one of the Knoppix CD's even has speech synthesis in the boot loader. That's no mean feat, if you ask me. Yet, we don't call the speech synthesizer "4I's" (that's "four-eyes"), and we don't call the screen magnifier "Soda Bottle". It would nullify all the hard work of Sun Microsystems and the broader X consortium. Nor do we call the on-screen keyboard "Wacky Hands" or "Twitchy Fingers". And who would dare belittle Adrian Hands, who did GNOME development with a Morse key on his leg? Gnome Bugzilla 7851, comment 19 We (well, some of "we") have done all this work, not primarily for the profit motive, not to get government contracts that mandate accessibility (I'm looking at you, Microsoft), but because it's simply the right thing to do. And in the middle of it all, what's supposed to be the crown jewel of the GNOME project, is this very nice graphics editor with a really stupid name. Joni Eareckson Tada may be quadriplegic and an excellent painter, but I doubt she'll be using The GIMP any time soon. Flame away, flamers. |
| tracyanne May 06, 2011 4:40 AM EDT |
Joni Eareckson Tada has probably never heard of GIMP, and more likely than not has only ever heard of PhotoShop. Even i she has, I'm quite sure she won't associate the name with a Photo/Graphics Editing tool. Also perhaps we should refrain from calling software a tool, that's not a very nice thing to call someone over here. It might be considered polite to refrain from doing so in case there are any people offended by the term. |
| gus3 May 06, 2011 4:26 PM EDT |
It's not a nice thing to call a person in the US, either. But the term "tool" has a clear, non-personal meaning, from which the personal insult is derived. "Gimp" has no such; its personal insult predates the Free Software meaning, and non-computer people associate the term more with the personal insult than with Free Software. Making the case of what Free Software can be, and can do for people, is hampered considerably by such a stupid name for an otherwise sophisticated program. |
| tuxchick May 06, 2011 4:53 PM EDT |
Ken is right, no matter how many silly non-pertinent examples are dredged up. There is no downside to software developers being considerate and user-centered, other than having to emerge from tunnel vision once in awhile. |
| dinotrac May 06, 2011 5:03 PM EDT |
@tc - Shame on you! How dare you suggest that developers act in the same manner as mere decent human beings. |
| hkwint May 08, 2011 10:59 AM EDT |
gus3: Sadly, there's nothing to flame when we agree. |
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