I wonder
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Fettoosh Apr 03, 2011 9:15 PM EDT |
Is Gnome going to follow suit and abandon Gnome classic for Gnome 3 Shell? I guess time will tell. Having a unified GUI across wide range of devices sounds like a marvelous thing, but is it practical? It might well be, but how do the full fledged desktop Office & Home users are going to feel about it? Again, time will tell. |
| tracyanne Apr 03, 2011 11:12 PM EDT |
Well neither GNOME Shell nor Unity make any sense at all on my hi res multi monitor setup, and KDE4 simply refuses to bend to my will and give me the workflow pattern I prefer, so if GNOME dump Classic, I have nowhere left to go but Trinity, if it's stable enogh or Xfce. I can certainly set up Xfce plus compiz -fusion to give myself the same work flow. |
| cabreh Apr 04, 2011 2:40 AM EDT |
I must concur. If I cannot get Gnome classic I will be looking for a different DE. I may go back to my first love, KDE, but I'll probablt try out others first. |
| skelband Apr 04, 2011 12:50 PM EDT |
One can feel a certain tension between the desire to have a convenient UI paradigm that works good on a touch display and one that works in the WIMP configuration like our tradition desktops. You can't help but wonder if this drive towards "the next big thing in UIs" is driven primarily by the bling of Touch screens and pad devices, rather missing out the still very real need for the traditional. Does Shuttleworth see Ubuntu being targetted primarily at the iPad and others and is blinded to the fact that the vast majority of his users are us? It seems so to me. Whereas flicking gestures up and down the display to perform common operations works well with the finger, it is awkward and clumsy with the mouse. |
| Fettoosh Apr 04, 2011 1:51 PM EDT |
Quoting:One can feel a certain tension between the desire to have a convenient UI paradigm that works good on a touch display and one that works in the WIMP configuration like our tradition desktops. No need to feel tense. As I indicated about this subject in another post, I believe the KDE team gets it right. They offer a configuration choice where a user can select one interface out of multiple. The selected interface becomes active immediately after confirmation and without the user having to reboot or re-login. Currently, there are two available, the standard classic desktop interface and the other is tailored for laptops, Netbooks & Tablets. There is one being developed for mobiles/phones. So far, any of the interfaces can be run on any device, but not sure if that will stay. One thing in particular that is nice about this feature is, devices that are coming from Motorola, where a hand held or a phone can be connected to a base or a tablet, that have a bigger monitor, keyboard, and mouse, and used as a full fledged computer. Users will be able to choose whatever the interface that is most suitable for the hardware configuration at the time. I think Unity & Gnome 3 Shell should have such capability to cater to all uses. If you haven't seen it before, take a look here: Scroll down to Plasma Netbook http://www.kde.org/announcements/4.6/plasma.php |
| herzeleid Apr 04, 2011 2:12 PM EDT |
Quoting: As I indicated about this subject in another post, I believe the KDE team gets right.They got kde4 right eh? Oh sure, anyone could see that by the mass exodus of formerly die hard kde users when kde 4 was released. I know - I was one of them. kde 3.5.10 was the best DE I'd ever used, and I looked forward to the awesomeness that was promised in kde 4. But as you know, there was no awesomeness - only a bizarre joke; a sparse, gratuitously different, crashy DE - and like a lot of others, I became a gnome user (again). I check back every so often but find myself frustrated by the lack of functionality and give up on it fairly quickly. |
| skelband Apr 04, 2011 2:26 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh: No need to feel tense. Yep, but the original article was about Ubuntu and Gnome. The fact that Shuttleworth is seeing the demise of the standard Gnome DE option in favour of their new UI paradigms, I see a backlash against Ubuntu in the future from traditional users come the Ocelotal release. Don't get me wrong, it is clearly obvious that touch devices need an entirely different user experience. However, I cannot see any benefit in ditching the traditional UI option which would still be the most effective UI for the largest number of users. Unless Mr Shuttleworth sees the future rather differently from me. |
| skelband Apr 04, 2011 2:29 PM EDT |
@herzeleid: Me too I used to be a big Mandrake fan until 3.5->4.0. I hated KDE 4 with a vengeance. At that time, Gnome was just too basic and unhelpful as a DE. The last straw was when they ditched Kooka, one of my favourite and most used KDE apps, from some strange idealistic point of view. Practically one of the only decent scanning applications that I have ever seen on the Linux platform. From what I gather, things have not changed much. |
| Fettoosh Apr 04, 2011 2:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:They got kde4 right eh? I said "I believe" in other words, my opinion. Yours differ, does that mean you don't think the concept of having GUI options not a good path? Quoting:Yep, but the original article was about Ubuntu and Gnome. I know that, and I am talking about Unity and Gnome. My point is: If KDE can have GUI options, why can't Unity and Gnome? Off to NY. |
| jdixon Apr 04, 2011 3:19 PM EDT |
> My point is: If KDE can have GUI options, why can't Unity and Gnome? It can, if the developers listen to their users. Or, they can refuse to learn from recent history, ignore their existing users, and lose them. |
| hkwint Apr 05, 2011 11:17 AM EDT |
Well, I think Ubuntu should have the option to run either Gnome or Unity, and when there's HD-space enough, both should be installed/configured by default so you can choose. Maybe first fire up Natty on my box to see if a 'dual boot' option is already there. |
| JaseP Apr 05, 2011 1:01 PM EDT |
Quoting: Don't get me wrong, it is clearly obvious that touch devices need an entirely different user experience. Not so fast there,... A lot of what you need for touchscreens can be accomplished with a few tweaks to a standard environment. Throw in multitouch drivers for capacitive screens, and the amount of extra stuff you need diminishes. I should know, I use a touchscreen device daily (minute by minute for most of the day). Touchscreen friendly environments are mostly about configuration. |
| ComputerBob Apr 05, 2011 5:26 PM EDT |
Quoting:...does that mean you don't think the concept of having GUI options not a good path?You say that KDE4 gives users several GUI options, but I find it very ironic that the one option the KDE4 devs failed to include -- apparently on purpose, despite widespread requests for it by KDE users -- was the choice to make it look and function like KDE3.5. |
| helios Apr 06, 2011 9:14 AM EDT |
The majority of the machines we installed at the Bruno Knaapen Technology Learning Center here in Austin are still running Mint 8...and those machines were placed over two years ago. It has been a stable, reliable system and when you consider the fact that these machines are used by dozens of kids in a week's time, that says a lot for Mint. In that same period, we've fought with update breakage in Ubuntu from 9.10 - 10.4, especially with java and flash. Not sure what the Mint folks are doing differently but personally, I hope they keep it up. We've decided to look at Mint again on our machines. We went to the Ubuntu LTS because our volunteers could use UCK to easily customize an Ubuntu release to include our additional programs and apps, but with the Gnome Shell and the fundamental actions of Gnome taking a radical turn, Mint will still offer the "standard" Gnome environment. Change can be good but I think the remodeling of KDE and now Gnome has or will set us back to square one, as far as new users go. From a stability and usability standpoint, Mint is doing the right thing by keeping the status quo. |
| Fettoosh Apr 06, 2011 10:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:the KDE4 devs failed to include -- apparently on purpose, despite widespread requests for it by KDE users Not accurate. Many users and some distros (e.g. PCLinuxOS) were able to configure KDE4 to look like and feel as kde3.5. Trinity is doing that too. The KDE team might still do that in the future, you never know. The KDE devs have limited resources. They feel they have a lot more important features they want to work on for now. So they did the next best thing, they made it possible for users and Distros to configure KDE any way they desire. |
| ComputerBob Apr 06, 2011 11:11 AM EDT |
Quoting:Many users and some distros (e.g. PCLinuxOS) were able to configure KDE4 to look like and feel as kde3.5. Trinity is doing that too. Not accurate. I'll let others respond to your first claim, but you're wrong about Trinity. Trinity is not KDE4, configured to look and feel like KDE3.5 -- it's a fork of KDE3.5. |
| Fettoosh Apr 06, 2011 11:30 AM EDT |
Quoting: Trinity is not KDE4, configured to look and feel like KDE3.5 -- it's a fork of KDE3.5. You are right about that, what I meant is KDE4 as a platform, Qt, and applications, not necessarily just the interface or the Plasma concept. I am sure that the KDE team did consider and could have done what Trinity developers are doing, but in their assessment and considering all things involved with code support and maintenance, their decision was to go with the Plasma concept. As a long term KDE user, I happen to agree with that. |
| ComputerBob Apr 06, 2011 12:55 PM EDT |
Quoting:As a long term KDE user, I happen to agree with that.And, as a FORMER long-time KDE user, I happen to disagree with it, so I am now a very happy Xfce user. ;) |
| Fettoosh Apr 06, 2011 2:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:And, as a FORMER long-time KDE user, I happen to disagree with it That is what is so great about FOSS. People agree and disagree all the time, but no one needs to be forced to use what they don't like. FOSS offers many choices. Not that I am saying you did, but bashing and labeling a group or an individual just because we disagree is not appropriate or constructive. |
| devnet Apr 07, 2011 4:32 PM EDT |
Quoting:You say that KDE4 gives users several GUI options, but I find it very ironic that the one option the KDE4 devs failed to include -- apparently on purpose, despite widespread requests for it by KDE users -- was the choice to make it look and function like KDE3.5. I said the same thing to Toyota when I bought my 2010 Camry...I wished they could make it look and feel and act just like the 1991 I bought in high school. Something told me they weren't going to listen...you could say it was money and time...they didn't want to keep spending money to make parts for it and they didn't want their mechanics to waste time repairing it. The same is true for KDE 4....they don't want to spend time supporting 3.5.10 (1991 Camry) when they're currently producing, maintaining, and coding on 4.6.x (newest line Camry). Asking someone to do that is, in my opinion, unrealistic. |
| Fettoosh Apr 07, 2011 4:59 PM EDT |
Quoting:I said the same thing to Toyota ... @devnet, I am not a big fan of car analogy, but the way you put it, it fits really well. |
| ComputerBob Apr 07, 2011 8:36 PM EDT |
Quoting:@devnet, I am not a big fan of car analogy, but the way you put it, it fits really well. I can understand why your point of view would cause you to think that the car analogy fits really well. Can you understand why I don't? |
| number6x Apr 07, 2011 9:12 PM EDT |
I think the car analogy works in Bob's favor...
So how is your new Camry's interface different than the old? Do you have to press the meta key and start to type the word 'brake' into a new interface to find the brake pedal? Or do you still use a brake pedal, gas pedal, transmission shifter, maybe a clutch if it is manual transmission. Have they moved the relative position of the gas and the brake? Does the dashboard display your speed and the approximate amount of fuel, or have they changed that? I would guess that the main interface is essentially unchanged, even if some particulars are modified. The 'ride' of the car probably feels different than your old Camry. Of course the 'ride' of your old Camry is different when you got rid of it than when it was new. I think it is a great analogy. Too bad the gnome team doesn't follow it. People do want things where they expect them to be. Changing things for the sake of change interferes with people's workflow. Besides why is a 3D desktop the default? There are reports of gnome3 using over 800 megs of memory! I keep hearing this is an interface designed to be appropriate to tablets and phones as well as desktops. If it is that resource hungry it will be a very inappropriate choice for tablets until 2021 or so. Bling and eyecandy should not be the default. The same look could have been achieved in a much simpler manner than with the blingy eyecandy of a 3D based interface. It just seems like a lot of bad decisions were made and counter arguments were rationalized away. The words I read from the gnome team sound great, but gnome3 shell does pretty much the opposite of the mission statement. I hope the fallback solution is extensible enough to fill my needs. I'll keep trying to like the shell, but I think it is not quite ready for prime time. I hope for the best and wish the gnome3 team well. I would like to see them work on a DE with less eye candy than the shell, that doesn't distract me from my worklow as much as the shell, and uses far fewer resources. Until then, I still have XFCE. |
| tracyanne Apr 07, 2011 9:33 PM EDT |
Quoting:I think the car analogy works in Bob's favour Except that the more modern car is often easier to personalise than an older car. My Hyundia is certainly easier to configure for my driving style than the old Ford, I had back in the 90s, was. Not so unfortunately KDE4, re how I like to use a computer desktop, nor Unity nor GNOME Shell, and not GNOME 3 classic as presented on the GNOME demo of GNOME 3. |
| jdixon Apr 08, 2011 12:36 AM EDT |
> Asking someone to do that is, in my opinion, unrealistic. Probably. So the customer goes and buys a Nissan Altima instead, and probably never buys another Toyota. |
| hkwint Apr 08, 2011 5:52 AM EDT |
Besides cars or no cars, did anyone manage to boot Natty on an 'older' (~2006) nVidia card? On my system, beyond grub2 not installing, I only have a "black screen" when Xorg boots. Seems the problem is 'hand-over' to Nouveau, or so I guess. Sadly, the old 'tried' VESA-driver is incompatible with KMS. Meaning no Unity / Natty for me... Even while NV43 (the GeForce 6600 I have) should be supported by Nouveau. It's really sad Natty is about the fourth Ubuntu-version I tried not booting at all on this system. I thought Ubuntu was good at 'just working out of the box', but I'm afraid I was wrong. It's just as bad as Fedora for the hardware I have. Sadly, Ubuntu is not user friendly at all, as by default it doesn't say in the console where to go for help (like Gentoo does), hell, it doesn't even have lynx/links or the 'man'-command installed! I think the framebuffer is meant as an alternative (the result of X -configure lists nouveau, fb and VESA) to nouveau, but sadly it doesn't work either. So, no Unity for me yet... But I'm determined! |
| dinotrac Apr 08, 2011 8:08 AM EDT |
@devent: But Toyota DOES still make that 1991 Camry. Last I looked, the steering wheel, brakes, and accelerator pedal remain in the same place. You can hop right out of the 1991 and into a 2011 and drive without disorientation. You might have to play with the wiper and cruise controls or feel around for the seat adjustment, but most of the changes are behind the scenes improvements, new additions, or cosmetic improvements. Had the KDE team demonstrated the talent and good judgment of Toyota, I would still be using KDE. |
| mrider Apr 08, 2011 11:01 AM EDT |
Quoting:Had the KDE team demonstrated the talent and good judgment of Toyota, I would still be using KDE.Or if Toyota had of used KDE's "good sense", we'd all be driving the Homer Mobile. |
| dinotrac Apr 08, 2011 1:34 PM EDT |
@mrider: More likely having a good laugh and moving on to another showroom. |
| Fettoosh Apr 08, 2011 2:25 PM EDT |
Quoting:You might have to play with the wiper and cruise controls or feel around for the seat adjustment, but most of the changes are behind the scenes improvements, new additions, or cosmetic improvements. Funny, that is exactly how I feel about KDE 4 compared to KDE 3.5.x and as I indicated in a previous post. KMenu is still in same place but one has more choices. Menus can float on desktop too. The same with Panel, except it is more flexible now and you can add, remove or change many of its settings Icons can be placed on desktop, but one in addition can have folder views, Quick access and many other widgets. All in all, KDE 4 is the same as KDE 3.5.x but with more features and flexibilities just the same with the Camry. |
| Fettoosh Apr 08, 2011 3:04 PM EDT |
Quoting:Can you understand why I don't? I sure can, just like devnet preferred his 1991 Camry over newer models, you prefer KDE 3.5.x. The important thing here is not for me to understand that, but that everyone has a choice. I am sorry the KDE team didn't fulfill your wishes, but I am sure you found and are happy with something else. Again, my whole point is that, whoever doesn't like KDE 4, that is fine, it is their choice, and am not say you did, there is no reason to bash KDE citing inaccurate or even wrong information. e.g. 12 clicks to hide/show panel when it can be configured to be done in simple mouse moves. |
| tracyanne Apr 08, 2011 6:21 PM EDT |
Obviously Fettoosh your style of use of a computer desktop is pretty close to what the KDE4 developers consider to be the way in which people will use their desktops.... Mine clearly isn't. Because while you find it quite easy to configure your desktop for Optimal usability I can't..... I can with the current GNOME desktop, and based on what Clem from Linux Mint is saying I should be able to do so with GNOME 3. In addition I was able to do so with the KDE3.5.x desktop, in fact it was that which lead me to where I am now in terms of work flow patterns, by virtue of the fact that I could configure it how I wanted. |
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