Quick question.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Ridcully Mar 26, 2011 6:06 PM EDT |
In all seriousness, has anyone yet seen a review that praises Gnome 3 as an improvement in the series and possesses the ability to streamline and enhance productive and professional work ? The articles I have seen so far either reject Gnome 3 or indicate that it has moved to bling and "dumbing down" (my impression) at the expense of user effectiveness. I'd be very pleased to be proven wrong, but that's how it looks to me. |
| HoTMetaL Mar 27, 2011 2:29 AM EDT |
I think the big reviewers are waiting for the official GNOME 3 release before giving it the ol' axe. It can't be good, though, that when scoping out positive reviews of early betas, all that can be heard are crickets. Perhaps I'm just old - or I use my desktop for actual work, but I find no value at all in making my desktop look and feel like a smartphone. |
| nalf38 Mar 27, 2011 6:03 AM EDT |
This is all very reminiscent of the release of KDE4. We all knew it wasn't production-ready, and the developers said as much, and it wasn't all that stable until 4.4. Well, guess what---the release of KDE3 was pretty much the same; it 'wasn't usable until 3.5. I've used Gnome2 (and Gnome1, as well) extensively, but I started out on KDE2 (Mandrake 7) and then KDE3, and it's my preferred DE. When KDE4 was initially released, I used Gnome for more than two years and was perfectly happy with it. I started using KDE4 a few years ago (I think); it was stable by then and I happily welcomed all the new features and the new desktop paradigm. Gnome3 will probably experience the growing pains---the long wait for Gnome2 programs to be ported to Gnome3; the wait for features of 2 to implemented in 3; the lament of Gnome2 users about how much 'simpler' it all was, and how 'bloated' the new Gnome3 is and 'why is Gnome ignoring their user base,' etc., etc. I haven't used Gnome3 previews or Gnome Shell, so I don't know exactly what all the fuss is about. But as Gnome is evolving into something very different from what it started out as, XFCE is doing the same, and has become about as bloated as the early versions of Gnome2. Why not stick with that? |
| Ridcully Mar 27, 2011 8:01 AM EDT |
@nalf38.......Yes and perhaps with respect to KDE, although I confess I didn't really get involved until KDE had reached iteration 3.5............However, what is extremely interesting to me, is that both KDE3.5.10 and Gnome 2.x were both considered excellent DE's. Oh yes, possible to improve no doubt, but they were fast, stable, useful in a professional sense and all round good desktop managers and environments. You could really work productively with both. What now fascinates me is that both KDE and Gnome seem to be following the same path: bling and "dumbing down". This means that KDE4 is brilliant, if a DE is defined by special effects, loss of at least some attributes of personal controls, lots of plasmoids and at least three different desktop environments/views; Gnome seems to be losing useful attributes and is being defined as a DE for those who work with iPads or smartphones etc. (I agree this is simplistic, but since I don't use Gnome myself, I am trying to follow the published comments of those who do.) What is then crucially important is that both are apparently forking......or if not forking, at least taking steps that would result in the same conclusion. KDE3.5.10 has become Trinity KDE and in my rather biased opinion, Trinity KDE is becoming the KDE that KDE4 should have become. Gnome has resulted in the production of EXDE.........and where that will lead, who knows ? |
| tracyanne Mar 27, 2011 6:47 PM EDT |
Just for the Record: GNOME 3 is pretty much like GNOME 2, they now call it Classic Desktop. GNOME Shell is the PART of GNOME 3 that appears to be designed for tablets and touch screen devices. You can install GNOME 3 without GNOME Shell. I'll be upgrading to Linux Mint 11, which will have GNOME 3 as it's DE, it WILL NOT have GNOME Shell installed. |
| Ridcully Mar 27, 2011 11:31 PM EDT |
Thanks tracyanne....I readily confess that since I don't use Gnome 3 I have to depend on serious articles and reviews in order to make my judgements. Probably very unfair, but so far I haven't seen good reports, hence the topic question. I'll be very definitely interested in any comments you eventually make with respect to Gnome3 sans Shell. PS......how's your soil drying out ? Pretty good here now, but the root rot damage to the Aust natives has been done by the January wetness and perhaps half of the geraldton wax shrubs are now dead and heading for "ye old bonfire". Oh well, I'm told that's just one of the things you have to accept if you are growing some sort of "crop", even if it is just flowers for Brisbane. |
| tracyanne Mar 28, 2011 12:10 AM EDT |
Rid, I expect my comments re GNOME 3 to be pretty much what they are for GNOME 2, but of course we shall see. If I manage to get a tablet anytime soon, hopefully with the insurance money to replace my mobile, which I had in my pocket when I drove our ride on into the dam, I'll definately install either GNOME Shell or Unity as the desktop - on top of either Ubuntu or Linux Mint. Our ground, still soggy, even though we live near the top of a hill, the front lawn is still water logged, and the top of the slope where the septic is, is a quagmire. Strangely further down the hill it's dry. At least our Dam is full, the Goats happy, and the chooks are fine, but not laying much, so it could be worse. |
| Fettoosh Mar 28, 2011 2:08 PM EDT |
Quoting:What now fascinates me is that both KDE and Gnome seem to be following the same path: bling and "dumbing down" I am not sure I totally agree. Actually, the statement above describes Gnome's path and not KDE's. Gnome 3 minimizes the number of menus and presents a whole slew of icons to launch applications. Yes, that is "dumbing down" and limiting. On the other had, it is very suitable for handheld devices (i.e. cell phones, tablets, etc) but is not a good effective interface for full fledged desktop computers. So Gnome is now catering to more new handheld users but, unfortunately going to lose many of their desktop users, if they don't allow for both. In the case of KDE 4, there is no bling or "dumbing down", on the contrary, it is getting more sophisticated with more functional elegance and wish that KDE was as good as Gnome in that sense. Gnome has pretty nice aesthetics. KDE 4 added many new features and capabilities on the back end, but on the front, it is still basically the same. Instead of just a classical hierarchical menu, users now have Quick Start and Lancelot in addition. Instead of a single desktop with icons, now users can have multiple Folders or Desktop Views that can, in addition to icons, contain Widgets/Plasmoids linking to places, applications, actions, etc. and in much more organized fashion. In stead of having a single GUI for all different devices, they gave users the option to select from multiple and depending on what the users prefer and like for a specific device. Instead of one GUI fits all, KDE already offers a Netbook GUI in addition to a Desktop one and a new one for Mobile devices is on the way. What most important about these offerings is for the user to be able to switch to anyone without having to reboot or even to re-login and no matter what device the user is using at the time. That is the path where Gnome should be heading to avoid losing some of their current desktop users. KDE added Activities, which are different than Gnome Activities, that allow users to access, manage, and control project tasks much more effectively and efficiently. Many other features were added, like window tabbing & Tiling, independent different desktops on each virtual pages with much improved Desktop Effects, etc. All added without eliminating essential features or functionalities that were in KDE 3.x, and without forcing the users to use any of the new features if they chose not to. I consider that to be a major accomplishment. Did all these changes and additions impact the KDE users? Of course they did and just like any other changes would. Did the KDE users need to learn new things? Of course they had to, just like learning any other new application or features. But in my opinion, the benefits of the changes far exceed the trouble their users had to go through. Others might not see it the same way and they can simply ignore some of all of the new features and enhacements. With all the changes, I still believe that KDE 4 stayed the same. It still has the same general GUI interface but users have a choice to change it and only if they chose to. |
| tracyanne Mar 28, 2011 5:31 PM EDT |
Quoting:Gnome 3 minimizes the number of menus and presents a whole slew of icons to launch applications That's GNOME Shell. |
| Ridcully Mar 28, 2011 6:06 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh.....I think you are incorrect over KDE4. I have met your plasmoids, desktop views, bling effects (and others) and rejected them in favour of simplicity and effectiveness in workplace operations. In a variety of ways KDE4 has been "dumbed down" but curiously and conversely added enormous structural complexity with it. Please take a look at this set of articles I have written on the subject. (I have given #4 because it lists the urls of the previous 3.) http://lxer.com/module/newswire/lf/view/147430/ To give one example, the exceptionally good personal settings manager in KDE3.5 has been transformed into the far more restricted one in KDE4. A second example is Dolphin which in its default state is almost useless as a file manager in the "Konqueror" tradition. Even ridiculous things like displaying the content of a file if the cursor is placed over its icon are "off by default". You can get the attribute back, but you have to know where the switch is within the complexity of the Dolphin structure. Don't misunderstand me: KDE4.4 is running very, very, very well for me in a KDE3.5 mode. It's stable, effective and fast enough for anything I want, but is KDE4 dumbed down and blinged ? Absolutely. Much of the problem with KDE4 was that the "owner-user" who had been very happy with his/her high class ocean going yacht suddenly found themselves in charge of a diesel-electric submarine........sure they get to the same destinations but in very different ways and with very different concepts on how the journey should be made. May I suggest you take a look at the Trinity KDE site. In my personal opinion, what is being done there is producing the KDE that previous KDE3.5 users thought they were getting in KDE4. |
| Fettoosh Mar 28, 2011 7:47 PM EDT |
Quoting:....I think you are incorrect over KDE4. I have met your plasmoids, desktop views, bling effects (and others) and rejected them in favour of simplicity and effectiveness in workplace operations. In a variety of ways KDE4 has been "dumbed down" Couple things: 1st - Incorrect is relative and I feel the same about your assertions. I have read all your articles before and I agree on some points and disagree with many others. 2nd - I believe we understand "Dumbed Down" differently. The way I understand it is briefed below and as outlined at this Wikipedia link. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dumbing_down Dumbing down is a pejorative term for a perceived over-simplification of education, news and television (among other things), or as a statement of truth about real cultural trends in education and culture. According to John Algeo, former editor of American Speech, the neologism dumb down "revise so as to appeal to those of little education or intelligence" was first recorded in 1933 as movie slang, and dumb up in 1928.[1] The concept "dumbing down" can point to a variety of different things but the concept always involves a claim about the simplification of culture, education, and thought, a decline in creativity and innovation, a degradation of artistic, cultural, and intellectual standards, or the undermining of the very idea of a standard, and the trivialisation of cultural, artistic, and academic creations. So I don't understand how KDE 4 is over simplified! In part III, you had this to say: In part II of this series I seriously attacked Dolphin's abilities and its lack of facilities and I should like to put the record straight in part by saying that what I wanted out of Dolphin was already there: it was simply that I did not know how to get at it. From my perspective, the solutions were somewhat difficult to find but are blindingly obvious once you are aware of them. That in turn raises some more questions, but more of those later. That tells me that KDE wasn't "Dumbed Down" but on the contrary, it was made more sophisticated by allow you to shape it any way you want. And instead of over-simplifying it, it is more involved and sophisticated than before. I strongly believe that "Sophistication without documentations brings complications", and that is why I agreed with you about the lack of documentations or tutorials when KDE was released. Any how, there are many more examples I can cite but it is obviously not going to change anything. The main point in my original post was to point out that Gnome and KDE are NOT following the same or even similar path. On the contrary, they are totally going in different directions. The only thing I can see to be the same or similar in both DEs is that both are trying to accommodate for handheld devices. Handheld are getting very populous and spreading like wildfire. KDE gets it right because they furnish multiple choices for the user to select from. Unfortunately, Gnome doesn't and should if they don't want to lose part of their user base. |
| Ridcully Mar 28, 2011 10:59 PM EDT |
Quoting: Couple things: 1st - Incorrect is relative and I feel the same about your assertions. I have read all your articles before and I agree on some points and disagree with many others. Fair enough......it would be a dull old world if we all had precisely the same ideas. We can agree to disagree. And I think you are correct in our different usage of the term "dumbing down"....I tend to look at it in the sense of removal of ability to do things and probably apply it more loosely than I should. But it does exist in KDE4 and the personal settings manager still shows that problem. Over complexity ? The numbers of clicks required to produce similar results which in one case ended up counting to about 11 in KDE4 but only 2 in KDE3.5. It is all very well to have this incredible sophistication and complication in KDE4 but I continue to wonder seriously as to how many KDE4 users actually apply all of those attributes. I don't say of course, that it is wrong to have them. It's like an immensely involved "serve yourself" table where you help yourself to what is there....I'd dearly like to know if KDE4 users are actually "helping themselves" widely and frequently to its huge additional complexity. Or are they keeping it as simple as possible as I do ? With respect to Dolphin, the "dumbing down" is in the default display. Certainly you can get to something that closely resembles Konqueror as I showed, but why in heavens name put a default display that is next to useless for its principle purpose ? I had a look at Konqueror in its default on the Trinity KDE site and remarked to myself that the Konqueror default display was what should have been there all the time. Why should I have to fight to get to that situation with Dolphin ? But I have said all this before and we simply agree to disagree. I do however, agree with you completely on the problem of manuals....My part 3 eventually became a simplistic manual for the use of Dolphin, but designed to target previous KDE3.5 users. With respect to Gnome and KDE4 following different paths, you may be right; but it is fairly obvious from the articles I have seen so far that the comments being made by the authors are eerily similar to those that were made about KDE4. I can't comment in detail about Gnome3 because I am not interested in even trialling it, however let's wait and see what the true Gnome users think later on. |
| ComputerBob Mar 29, 2011 11:04 AM EDT |
To me, it's a moot point whether GNOME and KDE are following the same path. They're both moving away from me -- a long-time KDE3 user whose KDE4 experience convinced him to switch to Xfce. |
| Fettoosh Mar 29, 2011 1:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:With respect to Dolphin, the "dumbing down" is in the default display The settings in Dolphin are endless and no matter what the defaults were, they won't be accepted by all. I agree though that packagers could have chosen a better set. Quoting:With respect to Gnome and KDE4 following different paths, you may be right; but it is fairly obvious from the articles I have seen so far that the comments being made by the authors are eerily similar to those that were made about KDE4.[quote] I am not sure what settings you are referring to that takes 11 clicks to complete, but it sounds like an over exaggeration. Although I agree some settings take a few more clicks to complete, I believe they are justified in most cases, and mostly because of the new added features, re-organization of settings, and some specific settings that users don't change that often. The DE was drastically changed and many new features and capabilities were added. It is normal for settings to get a little lengthier. All it takes is a little more familiarity with the new ways. I don't think it is a major issue since it is the norm in computer technology, which hardly stays stagnant or the same. Quoting:It is all very well to have this incredible sophistication and complication in KDE4 but I continue to wonder seriously as to how many KDE4 users actually apply all of those attributes. I don't say of course, that it is wrong to have them. It's like an immensely involved "serve yourself" table where you help yourself to what is there....I'd dearly like to know if KDE4 users are actually "helping themselves" widely and frequently to its huge additional complexity. Or are they keeping it as simple as possible as I do ? Very eloquently put. As a long term KDE users (~12 yrs.) I can tell you I personally don't use all the new features and capabilities, at least not yet. But honestly, I am not bothered by them and I do see their benefits on the long run, especially for the heavy computer users in the office and at home. Occasional or light users who just need to surf the Internet, read/send e-mail, write small documents, listen to music and watch movies, I don't think they want to be bothered by them either and they really don't have to. They can just simply ignore them for now and eventually, they will get a tablet or a smart phone to do all of that. That is where Gnome 3 Shell will do best and no one should be knocking it for that. What I disagree with Gnome path, which is unlike the path KDE is taking, and as I said before, KDE gets it right because it caters to all users by furnishing multiple interface options and the ability to tailor, to their hearts content, whichever option they choose. In my opinion, handheld devices are supplemental to full fledged desktop computers and not a replacement. |
| tracyanne Mar 29, 2011 7:14 PM EDT |
Quoting:That is where Gnome 3 Shell will do best and no one should be knocking it for that. What I disagree with Gnome path, which is unlike the path KDE is taking, and as I said before, KDE gets it right because it caters to all users by furnishing multiple interface options and the ability to tailor, to their hearts content, whichever option they choose. In my opinion, handheld devices are supplemental to full fledged desktop computers and not a replacement. @Fettoosh you are conflating GNOME 3 and GNOME Shell. GNOME Shell is PART of GNOME 3, but it isn't ALL of GNOME 3. GNOME 3 will run just fine as a standard desktop, looking and functioning just like GNOME 2. You can be forgiven for assuming that GNOME Shell IS GNOME 3, every blogger and their dog, and even the GNOME developers have done nothing but talk about GNOME Shell. But the fact is GNOME Shell is ONLY a PART of GNOME 3. It's the part aimed at Tablets and Touch screen devices. Distributors have the option of installing GNOME 3 WITHOUT including GNOME Shell. Linux Mint 11 will be released in this manner. Which brings us to your statement that KDE have done it right while GNOME have not. Clearly the GNOME folks have not made the breaking changes that the KDE idiots did, instead they have extended GNOME to include tablets and Touch screen devices, leaving standard/large screen/Multi screen desktop functionality intact (which is what those of us who were KDE 3.5.x users expected KDE 4 to do), which is why I'll be sticking with GNOME 3 and never ever going back to KDE. |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 30, 2011 12:57 AM EDT |
The whole rending of garments, first over KDE 4.0, now over GNOME 3.0/GNOME Shell, has prompted me to do one thing: stick with stable/long-term releases and not the latest/greatest. I might want newer applications, but I really don't need an untested x.0 release of the desktop environment. I'm happily parked at Debian Stable on one machine, Ubuntu 10.04 LTS on another, and I can wait this out. Just as KDE 4.x got better after the 4.0 days, so too will GNOME improve once we get a few releases away from 3.0. |
| Fettoosh Mar 30, 2011 11:12 AM EDT |
Quoting:You can be forgiven for assuming that GNOME Shell IS GNOME 3 Thank you for your gracious forgiveness you highness, but I think you are confusing what I said. Look closely again and you will see I wrote "Gnome 3 Shell" not Gnome 3. Quoting:every blogger and their dog, and even the GNOME developers have done nothing but talk about GNOME Shell. But the fact is GNOME Shell is ONLY a PART of GNOME 3. It's the part aimed at Tablets and Touch screen devices Hmm, I guess you know more than what the developers meant to say. The fact is, both Gnome and Unity developers have been following the same path to create a single interface for Ubuntu from high end desktops to the smallest hand held device. Only recently Gnome developers started to back track and after a number of Distros already announced that they will keep the classic desktop GUI environment. Quoting:Clearly the GNOME folks have not made the breaking changes that the KDE idiots did,... Calling people idiots doesn't give credibility to your argument. Like many KDE users, I happen to believe that KDE 4 is out of this world. I have been happily using it since its first release. Yes it went through rough stages, but weren't enough to give up on it. Latest 4.6.1 release paid off. It is solid, reliable, feature rich with many new ones that many users enjoy and make use of in a very production fashion and there is more to come. You don't see it that way and I understand, that is your provocative, but there is no reason to call others idiots just because you happen to not like what they do. Turn the table around and others might think you are being idiotic because you don't appreciate what they appreciate. Just remember, "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" |
| herzeleid Mar 30, 2011 1:29 PM EDT |
Quoting: kde 4.6.1.. is solid, reliable, feature rich with many new ones that many users enjoy and make use of in a very production fashion and there is more to come.Just out of curiosity, is "feature rich" code for "approaching parity with kde 3.5 feature set"? |
| chalbersma Mar 30, 2011 2:29 PM EDT |
I've said it before on this forum and I'll say it again: Real men use fluxbox. |
| Fettoosh Mar 30, 2011 3:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:Just out of curiosity, is "feature rich" code for "approaching parity with kde 3.5 feature set"? I believe everything is relative. Since no one could claim using all features of anything, I personally didn't encounter any features I used in KDE 3.5.10 that KDE 4.6.1 doesn't or have a replacement for. Besides, there are many features that KDE 4 has and are not in 3.5.10. Whether they are useful to everyone or not, that is different point. |
| Fettoosh Mar 30, 2011 3:17 PM EDT |
Quoting:Real men use fluxbox. Actually, real men use whatever they want. :-) |
| gus3 Mar 30, 2011 3:48 PM EDT |
And only a real man would want to use Sawfish. |
| Ridcully Mar 30, 2011 6:44 PM EDT |
Quoting: Since no one could claim using all features of anything, I personally didn't encounter any features I used in KDE 3.5.10 that KDE 4.6.1 doesn't or have a replacement for. Besides, there are many features that KDE 4 has and are not in 3.5.10. Whether they are useful to everyone or not, that is different point. Okay Fettoosh, you force my hand. I wasn't going to join in again, but the above quote and your statement about the "numbers of clicks" indicates you have missed something in the series of articles I wrote. In KDE3.5, there is a little icon at each end of the bottom panel. Click on that and the panel moves sideways off the screen leaving a little rectangular arrow at the bottom corner. Click on that, and the panel returns. Okay, two clicks to "disappear and reappear" the bottom panel. This process is necessary for one piece of crucial software I use....Without the panel gone, the screen display becomes unstable. This simple and ridiculous procedure is definitely missing from KDE4.4 and in my preliminary work with KDE4.6, it is also missing. What you can do is work out a routine via the cashew in which the panel can be made to disappear if necessary, but you end up with having to use 10-12 clicks to do the same thing in KDE4. You can find the fine details here: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/lf/view/144900/ under the heading "Lucid and its needs – or how to “remove” the Panel" Generally speaking, if you add complexity at the user interface, you need far more detailed/complicated menu selections to control that increased interface complexity. To me that's a "no-brainer" and it follows that at least for some parts of KDE4 the numbers of selections/clicks needed to complete an operation simply has to increase. However the above Lucid one was so incredible, I detailed it exactly in the articles. |
| tracyanne Mar 30, 2011 9:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:Calling people idiots doesn't give credibility to your argument. Did I call them idiots, damn, that's not what I meant to write, I was thinking several levels of expletives, as only one who speaks Australian can string them together, that I couldn't write due to TOS, and meant to write folks, as I had in reference to the GNOME developers, that must have subconsciously slipped in there. However I wasn't making an argument. merely demonstrating your ignorance. I used to be a KDE user until the KDE whatevers went and ruined KDE with KDE4, clearly I'm a KDE user who doesn't think KDE is out of this world, because now I'm an EX KDE user. |
| Fettoosh Mar 30, 2011 9:13 PM EDT |
Quoting:Okay Fettoosh, you force my hand. OK Ridcully , all of us need our hands forced now and then to learn something new. :-) No seriously, I am not a forceful person but tenuous. Let me just clarify. I am using Kubuntu with KDE 4.6.1. It has many refinements added since KDE 4.4, which you used when you wrote the articles. Repeating the procedure with slightly similar steps to hide/show the panel takes me 7 clicks. Here is how: 2 clicks - Right click on panel, or any vacant place on screen, and select Unlock Widgets 3 clicks - Click on Cashew that showed at right end of panel, Click on More settings and select "Windows go below" option 2 click - Right click on panel or any vacant place on screen to get context menu and select "Lock Widgets". Note that the right click will close the panel configuration menu and open the context menu to reset to original state. Couple notes: 1 - If you are going to make configuration changes very often, you really don't have to lock/unlock the widgets, you can keep widgets unlocked and desktop still functions the same. In this case, you reduce the number of click to only 4. In KDE 4.6.1, many of the menu options that require unlocking widgets will have "Unlock Widgets" button presented to select before you make your menu selections. If widgets are already unlocked, you will not see this "Unlock Widgets" button. 2 - More importantly, the best setting I found to do what you want with minimal clicks is to select "Windows Can Cover" under "More Settings" menu. This way, if the views cover the panel, the panel will show above the views as soon as you push the cursor against the lower edge (or the edge where the panel is located) of the screen. Move the cursor away from panel, and the panel will immediately disappear/hide. If the views don't totally cover the panel, you will still see it all the time. If the views partially cover the panel, you will still see the partial part until you click on it to show the whole panel. Clicking any where else will partially cover the panel again. I hope this helps |
| Fettoosh Mar 30, 2011 10:59 PM EDT |
Quoting:However I wasn't making an argument. merely demonstrating your ignorance. Instead, yours became crystal clear. Visit Gnome 3 site http://www.gnome3.org/ and take a look at the things they want you to look forward to. Not a single mention of Gnome Shell, it is all about Gnome 3. Read the very last line carefully (GNOME 3 will feel right at home on netbooks as well as larger machines) |
| jdixon Mar 30, 2011 11:23 PM EDT |
> Repeating the procedure with slightly similar steps to hide/show the panel takes me 7 clicks. OK. 7 is better than 12. But still a h**l of a lot worse than 2. > I hope this helps Ridcully, who is still trying to use KDE 4? Probably. The rest of us, who didn't bother trying and moved to Gnome, XFCE, or LXDE; not really. It's not even close to enough to convince someone to switch back. |
| Fettoosh Mar 31, 2011 12:00 AM EDT |
Quoting:OK. 7 is better than 12. But still a h**l of a lot worse than 2 True, even if it was reduced to 4 by keeping widgets unlocked, it would still be not good enough. But how about using "Windows Can Cover" option outlined in my 2nd note! It requires no clicks, only mouse drags. Quoting:It's not even close to enough to convince someone to switch back I am not trying to convince anyone to switch back, people make their own choices. What I am doing is simply state the facts and correct inaccuracies due to lack of information. |
| tracyanne Mar 31, 2011 12:01 AM EDT |
@Fettoosh Linux Mint 11 (Katya) with GNOME 3 AnnouncedQuoting:Linux Mint 11 (Katya) with GNOME 3 Announced News and Direct from Clement Lefebvre himself. Linux Mint 11: “Katya” Response numbe 4. Quoting:Clem Says: February 22nd, 2011 at 5:47 am This is possible because GNOME 3 is NOT GNOME Shell. GNOME Shell is merely an optional part of GNOME 3. So yes it is indeed true GNOME 3 will feel right at home on Tablet/touch screen devices and larger Desktops. Which is why I'm quite comfortable upgrading the GNOME 3, it is in reality an incremental improvement on GNOME 2, with the addition of a new DE for Tablets/Touch screen devices... GNOME Shell, and not the unnecessary breaking change that KDE 4 was. Now that you have been informed there is no longer any excuse for you ignorance. |
| Fettoosh Mar 31, 2011 1:06 AM EDT |
Quoting:Linux Mint 11 (Katya) with GNOME 3 Announced News Linux Mint is a Distro and Clement Lefebvre is not a Gnome developer. So what is your point? I already previously said that Gnome devs back tracked on their plans after Distros announced not to use the single interface of Gnome 3 Shell or Unity as default. Gnome developers still use Gnome 3 to mean Gnome 3 + Shell to make a point about the feature it brings to the desktop, which wouldn't be there if Gnome Shell is not installed. So, users have to install Gnome Shell to get extra functionalities, while KDE give users the options to switch a suitable interface and depending on the type of device using at the time by a simple configuration without having to reboot or re-login. Wow, that is what I call innovation and elegance. Signing off, time to bed. |
| tracyanne Mar 31, 2011 1:32 AM EDT |
Quoting:So, users have to install Gnome Shell to get extra functionalities The extra functionality of a touchscreen device on my rig, which has multiple large screens, I think that's a bit of bloat I can forgo. Thankfully because GNOME Shell, which is designed for Touch devices/tablets is optional, and will be installed on my Tablet, which will be running Linux Mint 11. Unlike KDE where you get everything wether you need it or not, talk about bloated, not even Windows is as bad. Yours it what is called wilfull ignorance. It's an interesting ability to ignore anything that doesn't fit your neat little compartmentalised world view. It's the worst kind of ignorance. I just installed a program called kFloppy on a machine, it's got a Floppy Disk drive, and the owner has floppies he wants to get data off. For this 1 tiny GUI application I got most of the KDE 4 runtime... including MySQL, now you tell me what use MySQL is to floppy disk GUI. No I changed my mind the KDE Devs are idiots, but at least they aren't wilfully ignorant. Interestingly Trinity is what KDE4 should have been. |
| Fettoosh Mar 31, 2011 12:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:The extra functionality of a touchscreen device... Suit yourself and use whatever you like, but don't fabricate and exaggerate to trash software you have bias against and happen not to like. And FYI, Gnome 3 Shell brings a lot more features than just for touch screen devices. e.g. window tiling. May be spending a little more time digging could be helpful for you to get better informed. I thought you know a little about programming, but your ignorance is obvious by complaining about having features you claim you don't need. Features you don't want or need could be a must have to many others. KDE wasn't developed for your type of people only, it was developed for everyone who wants to use it, thus better organized and integrated shared libraries to suit all sorts of configurations. The bloat you are referring to is NOT an issue no matter how hard your try to make it. All it does is occupy little more disk space and memory but doesn't hinder performance unless you don't have enough of them. And with most relatively new computers, disk space and memory are in abundance and cheap. I know because I have over 10 year old and as recent as 2 year new computers. so what is the big deal? As a matter of fact, KDE 4 is as responsive as KDE 3 or Gnome if not faster and snappier. Have you tried KDE 4.6.1 lately? I didn't think so. Quoting:I just installed a program called kFloppy on a machine,... Again, I thought you know a little about GUI application programming. Yeah, it is a little applications, but makes quite a bit of GUI calls, which you might or might not have them installed depending on the DE you are using. Obviously that computer didn't have KDE libs necessary for GUI part of the applications and installed them because they are NEEDED, not just for the heck of it. Some of those libraries have objects that are shared by MySQL GUI routines, so what! Isn't that what shared libraries are for? Quoting:Yours it what is called wilfull ignorance. It's an interesting ability to ignore anything that doesn't fit your neat little compartmentalised world view. It's the worst kind of ignorance. As I said before, labeling and calling people names doesn't gain you any credibility and they are a sign of frustration with failure. |
| Fettoosh Mar 31, 2011 1:25 PM EDT |
@tracyanne, This link is for you. Enjoy. New KDE Polishes Linux but Leaves a Few Little Streaks http://www.technewsworld.com/story/72166.html?wlc=1301534938 |
| Ridcully Mar 31, 2011 4:41 PM EDT |
For jdixon.......Quoting:> I hope this helps Um...not really. 7 clicks is still ridiculous compared to a simple "toggle situation". Moreover, while I certainly do use KDE4.4, I must admit I now look on it as a stop-gap until Trinity KDE is sufficiently polished to allow me to return to simplicity and speed. |
| tracyanne Mar 31, 2011 6:11 PM EDT |
Quoting:As I said before, labeling and calling people names doesn't gain you any credibility and they are a sign of frustration with failure. It is indeed, Frustration at the failure of the KDE idiots to listen. Frustration at the KDE idiots failure to build on the best desktop I've ever used, KDE 3.5.10, and turn it into something great, Frustration that the KDE idiots instead gave us KDE4. |
| Ridcully Mar 31, 2011 7:31 PM EDT |
Hi Tracyanne.....right on the nail, as usual I think. I have had a little feedback from the Trinity KDE project, and as you would imagine, they in turn get considerable feedback from frustrated KDE3.5.10 users. I cannot recall when I got this item out of the many Trinity development emails that fly across my desk now (because most are deleted on arrival after a cursory glance), but it contained text which in essence indicated the following: "KDE4 came into existence because KDE3.5.10 was so stable, fast, effective and simple that it had become boring for the developers to maintain." Of course, there is no foundation or proof whatsoever for that statement and it may have been spoken out of bitterness and frustration, but on the surface, it certainly sounds it might be possible. KDE4 gave the development excitement of starting a new project from scratch with all the problems that entails. As I have already said elsewhere (LXT probably), with Qt4 now applied and the software maintained and improved, there is every chance that Trinity KDE will become the DE that KDE4 should have become. |
| tracyanne Mar 31, 2011 8:13 PM EDT |
@FettooshQuoting:New KDE Polishes Linux but Leaves a Few Little Streaks I can't get to the article, I get a blank screen, I suspect it requires that one read an advertisement, and I'm not going to turn Adblock off, or NoScript, just so I can navigate past the blockage. |
| tracyanne Mar 31, 2011 8:25 PM EDT |
Quoting:Have you tried KDE 4.6.1 lately? I didn't think so. Yes, I try every "This is the latest and greatest and it will fix all of your complaints" release of KDE4, and have done so since it was released for general use on Mandriva, and Kubuntu, also trying it on various other distribution, because "such and such on distribution xyz manages to set up just right" (see other threads about KDE4 on lxer), I don't want to be in a position of disparaging without actually having tried what I''m disparaging. I also try out lots of other Desktops and Distributions. Every no and then I tell people how impressed I am with one or another of them. |
| jdixon Mar 31, 2011 9:30 PM EDT |
> 7 clicks is still ridiculous compared to a simple "toggle situation". True. I hope Trinity reaches usability for you soon. > I suspect it requires that one read an advertisement,... Yeah. It has a skip this advertisement link in the upper right hand corner for me. But NoScript is probably blocking it for you. |
| Fettoosh Mar 31, 2011 11:28 PM EDT |
Quoting:I can't get to the article, I get a blank screen, I use Chrome with adBlock, it takes me straight to page. When I use FF4 with adBlock you need to skip it as jdixson's suggested. @Ridcully, jdixon, I didn't hear any comments about using "Windows Can Cover" option? Isn't that better than having to click to hide and another click to show panel? My concern is many people are either using an older version or didn't dig deep enough to find what they are looking for. Guys, I care less whether you use KDE 4 or not, like I said, all what I am interested in is correct any wrong perceptions, inaccuracies, or mis-information. It isn't fair to the developers who work hard and tenaciously on developing good software and all they get back from some people is flack and outrageous criticism. You don't like what you see from them and you are using something else already, there is no need for you to spread obsolete and wrong information. Most of all, if you don't have enough information or knowledge about how to use KDE 4, or how to use a specific feature, don't assume anything. Instead, ask on the forums or do a Google search. I am sure you will get a good help. Any ways, I too hope Trinity will reach and maintain good usability for you. As for me, KDE 4 is what I want. |
| Ridcully Apr 01, 2011 12:27 AM EDT |
For Fettoosh.......the "Windows can cover" option is not an option I would normally use in day to day work. I need the rather critical information shown on that panel most of the time I am using any application on my desktop. If it wasn't for the Lucid application's special needs, I would never wish to hide the panel at all.....So for that one application, I have to go through that extra routine. Okay......I can live with that, but it is cumbersome at the time. The KDE3.5 method was simple and effective and if I needed the panel back during Lucid operation, it was a simple matter to minimise Lucid and one click had the panel back into its normal spot. As regards KDE4 and what you prefer to use, go for it. It's your choice, and so it should be !! For the moment, KDE4 is performing very well for me. As I stressed in the article series, KDE4.4 running in KDE3.5 mode on openSUSE is stable, reasonably fast and now does exactly what I want, even if I have to "belt it over the head" a little in order to get there. I certainly don't attack the developers, but what I *do* attack (strictly from a personal perspective) is the particular path they chose.....but again, there are now many who really like what they have produced ~ and I have no argument with that either. Choice is a marvellous thing in the FOSS world. |
| tracyanne Apr 01, 2011 12:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:Most of all, if you don't have enough information or knowledge about how to use KDE 4, or how to use a specific feature, don't assume anything. Instead, ask on the forums or do a Google search. I am sure you will get a good help. Interesting comment on KDE4. I used KDE from the first time I used Linux, back in 2000, up until I replaced Mandriva (kde4) with Ubuntu (GNOME), now I had no trouble switching to the GNOME DE, it was all pretty logical, and quite easy to work out how to configure to my liking, I've used Xfce, LXDE and Enlightenment, and had no trouble working them out, but KDE well that's another story. I really have, well had to work at it, nothing made sense, in fact it still seems convoluted, and illogical, I can configure it now, but it was, and still is much more work, and certainly nothing like what I was led to expect when reading up about it back in the halcyon days of 3.5.x. It is and was a complete and unnecessary break from 3.5.10, and because of that I won't use it nor recommend it to my clients because I get better workflow using GNOME. Trinity does seem to be on the right track, taking the best of KDE3.5.10 and moving it forward, it could become the KDE desktop to have. |
| jdixon Apr 01, 2011 9:30 AM EDT |
> I didn't hear any comments about using "Windows Can Cover" option? It's hard to comment on something you don't use. I switched to XFCE as my desktop of choice years ago. I would switch to KDE from time to time for specific purposes, but it's only in the past 2 months that I've installed a version of my distribution that uses KDE4, and I've had no need to use it in that time. Hmm, speaking of which, I guess it's time I actually take a look at the alternatives for the KDE programs I do use. Given how few there are, there's not much point in having it installed if I can find suitable replacements. > ...like I said, all what I am interested in is correct any wrong perceptions, inaccuracies, or mis-information. It's hard to correct "wrong perceptions" which are based on factual information. My attitude toward KDE4 is shaped solely by the developers' public reaction to the comments of formerly loyal KDE users. I have absolutely no interest in supporting such developers, or in using a product they developed. And from those public comments, I can be absolutely certain the feeling is mutual. |
| Fettoosh Apr 01, 2011 10:25 AM EDT |
Quoting:....the "Windows can cover" option is not an option I would normally use in day to day work. @Ridcully, It seems you have a "must have" configuration that there is no substitute for it at this time. I have no quarrel with that and to each his own. Like you said, Choice is in deed a marvellous thing and in everything if I might add. Quoting:Interesting comment on KDE4. @tracyanne!!!! I am speechless, not a single derogatory word in a whole post! I am impressed. Keep it up and enjoy using what you like. Like Ridcully said, Choice is in deed a marvellous thing. Quoting:it's hard to comment on something you don't use. @jdixson, That is exactly my point. Yet, you commented on the same issue in a previous post. Have a good weekend everyone and keep FOSSing. And I am going to use Gnome 3 from now on! (Apr 1st) |
| ComputerBob Apr 01, 2011 10:27 AM EDT |
Thanks, Fettoosh -- your posts confirm what I already knew -- that I made the right decision when I dropped KDE4 (http://www.computerbob.com/guides/my_debian_adventure_3.php) and switched to Xfce. Unlike KDE4, Xfce doesn't get in my face and force me to have to completely relearn how to use my computer -- it stays out of the way and lets me do my work. |
| Fettoosh Apr 01, 2011 10:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:Thanks, Fettoosh -- your posts confirm what I already knew Hay, Glad to be of help ComputerBob. |
| jdixon Apr 01, 2011 6:03 PM EDT |
> Yet, you commented on the same issue in a previous post. Yes. I commented to point out an obvious detail which you had mysteriously failed to mention in your analysis and to note that what you had covered, while possibly useful to those trying to use KDE4, wouldn't be enough to change anyone's mind. Your point is? I wasn't commenting on KDE4, I was commenting on your comment. Or is it that, like the KDE4 developers, you feel an outsider's viewpoint is worthless? |
| Fettoosh Apr 01, 2011 7:25 PM EDT |
Quoting:Your point is? My point is, you don't use KDE, yet you took my count of 7 clicks, which I also said it is still not acceptable, and you totally ignored the final alternative. This alternative is simpler and more efficient since it requires no clicks after a one time setup. It only needs moving the mouse to accomplish what Ridcully wants. Again, I don't care what anybody uses. I am just demonstrating that, many of the complains about KDE, among other things, are either due to lack of information or mis-understanding its concepts. Those who don't want to learn new DE, there are many other to switch to. |
| tracyanne Apr 01, 2011 9:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:@tracyanne!!!! I am speechless, not a single derogatory word in a whole post! I am impressed. Keep it up and enjoy using what you like. Like Ridcully said, Choice is in deed a marvellous thing. clearly the man does not understand irony. |
| jdixon Apr 01, 2011 11:22 PM EDT |
> ...and you totally ignored the final alternative. The fact that I don't comment on something doesn't mean I ignored it. It usually means I didn't have anything I considered worth saying. On rarer occasions it means that I haven't had time to post a comment. > This alternative is simpler and more efficient. You seem to think so. Ridcully doesn't seem to agree. > Again, I don't care what anybody uses. You keep saying that, yes. For some strange reason, I don't find it entirely convincing. > I am just demonstrating that, many of the complains about KDE, among other things, are either due to lack of information or mis-understanding its concepts. You're may be trying to demonstrate that, but so far you've not been notably successful. And my opinion of KDE4 and the KDE4 developers isn't based on either a lack or information or a misunderstanding. > Those who don't want to learn new DE, there are many other to switch to. Which I did a long time ago. Apparently you think that means I shouldn't have an opinion on the subject, no matter how well informed that opinion may be. |
| tmx Apr 02, 2011 1:41 AM EDT |
Could careless about fighting over these DE and trying to evangelize for them. I use KDE desktop as default, but with various GTK apps installed. Mix and match best apps among Qt and GTK and they run well together. About the original post, unless for some specific compatible reason, not sure why one wouldn't switch to Firefox 4, the speed performance is as much as 200% base on benchmarks. |
| Fettoosh Apr 02, 2011 11:16 AM EDT |
@tmx,Quoting:the speed performance is as much as 200% base on benchmarks for a while, I have been using Chrome and FF4, both are very good but I lean towards FF4 since it has more of what I use and performance is a toss up. Compared to FF3.x, both are way much faster. Quoting:Could careless about fighting over these DE I am not really fighting about it, just trying to set the facts straight. I can do that since KDE4 has been my default for a long time. With the latest 4.6.1 release, I believe the majority of the complains are mostly due to mis-information and the lack of it among other things. 12 clicks to hide/show the panel was way over the top, especially when demonstrated it only takes a one time setup and simple movement of the mouse to accomplish. |
| tuxchick Apr 02, 2011 2:14 PM EDT |
LOL Fettoosh, excessive words and denials don't change the fact that you're "proving" people who don't care for KDE4 are wrong. Good luck with that. Popcorn anyone? |
| ComputerBob Apr 02, 2011 5:00 PM EDT |
Quoting:With the latest 4.6.1 release, I believe the majority of the complains are mostly due to mis-information and the lack of it among other things.People have said that about every new KDE4 version since at least KDE 4.1 -- and it still doesn't ring true. |
| tracyanne Apr 02, 2011 7:12 PM EDT |
@Fettoosh, since you obviously failed irony 101, I spell it out for you.Quoting:I am not really fighting about it, just trying to set the facts straight.and Quoting:I believe the majority of the complains are mostly due to mis-information and the lack of it among other things. I think you managed to sets the facts straight quite well, and demonstrate that Most people trying KDE definately lack knowledge, when you stated. Quoting:Most of all, if you don't have enough information or knowledge about how to use KDE 4, or how to use a specific feature, don't assume anything. Especially when you compare the fact that most people, including myself have little or no trouble using prior knowledge and experience to move from Windows or Mac to GNOME to Xfce, to LXDE, but are unable to use prior knowledge and experience to move to KDE, where in your words "if you don't have enough information or knowledge about how to use KDE 4, or how to use a specific feature, don't assume anything." Clearly KDE is convoluted and illogical, and your own words confirm that major handholding is required. |
| Ridcully Apr 02, 2011 9:01 PM EDT |
Thanks Tracyanne.......what you have stated in your last sentence/conclusion is precisely why I wrote those articles of mine (omitting #4, as it was never previously envisaged). They provide a "handholding manual" to get KDE4 into a useful format for productive work - at least as far as I am concerned. I was kind in a post above when I indicated that I had to hit KDE4 about the head "a little" to get it to do what I wanted; I should rather have said: "a b..............y. lot !" (insert great Australian adjective at appropriate point) To me, as a current user of the software, KDE4 is now over complex, convoluted and illogical (as you so aptly said) and I use a very heavily cut-down "KDE3.5 mode". I have managed to get KDE4.6 to behave in exactly the same way as KDE4.4 using the procedures I described in the articles. I am forced again and again to ask why the DE of KDE3.5 allows me to be productive but the DE of KDE4 does not, until it is modified into the simpler mode of KDE3.5 ? Again and again, one reads rave reviews which make predictions based on the superb way in which KDE4 will assist its users to have views, plasmoids, improved work results, etc. etc. BUT, what you **don't** ever see are articles on how the writer has actually used those views, plasmoids, desktops, etc. to genuinely BE far more productive than KDE3.5. I want to know if the average KDE4 user actually uses all this complexity to be more productive; because if that is not the case, then why is the KDE4 team persisting in producing it ? I am most definitely NOT a strong supporter of KDE4. I strongly support KDE3.5 (and Trinity KDE). What I always come back to is the fact that in my daily work I am not using KDE4 as such. |
| theboomboomcars Apr 03, 2011 1:49 AM EDT |
Quoting:Again and again, one reads rave reviews which make predictions based on the superb way in which KDE4 will assist its users to have views, plasmoids, improved work results, etc. etc. BUT, what you **don't** ever see are articles on how the writer has actually used those views, plasmoids, desktops, etc. to genuinely BE far more productive than KDE3.5. I want to know if the average KDE4 user actually uses all this complexity to be more productive; because if that is not the case, then why is the KDE4 team persisting in producing it ? I too would like to see this. I can use KDE 4 to do basic things but if I try to use it for any extended time it feels like I am swimming up stream. I lump it with OS X, pretty but doesn't do things how I do things and it's way too much work to try to get it to work right. I could spend the time to adjust my habits to the way KDE 4 wants me to, but it is much easier to use a DE that works in a similar manner as I do. |
| tracyanne Apr 03, 2011 2:02 AM EDT |
Quoting:....I lump it with OS X, pretty but doesn't do things how I do things and it's way too much work to try to get it to work right. I could spend the time to adjust my habits to the way KDE 4 wants me to..... Interesting you should say that theboomboomcars, early on in the release cycle of KDE4, during the 4.0 release (only), I think. the KDE4 devs had a slogan that went something like "work(s) the way you like". I recall pointing out, on the KDE forum, that this was definately not the case where I am concerned. By 4.1 this slogan had disapeared, perhaps enough more people had pointed out the same fallacy, and they had decided to abandon the slogan. |
| Fettoosh Apr 03, 2011 12:31 PM EDT |
Quoting:excessive words and denials don't change the fact that you're "proving" people who don't care for KDE4 are wrong. @TC, Since you put it so bluntly, yes I am, and already have proven them wrong no matter how they twist thing or try to change the subject. Quoting:Good luck with thatWhether I am successful with those who don't care about KDE or not is immaterial to me, what I care about is those who are not biased and appreciate the facts. Quoting:Clearly KDE is convoluted and illogical, and your own words confirm that major handholding is required. @TA, Speak for yourself because you can't prove any of that especially when KDE 4 has a huge user base and growing and believe otherwise. I and many who have been using KDE 4 day-in day-out didn't need any hand-holding. Besides, what I said is, more documentation and tutorials could be helpful for those who might not understand its advanced concepts and methodologies. KDE 4 is way ahead of MS & Apple DEs and experience in those are not enough. Many did learn it on their own and without much documentation. Obviously, you and others around you couldn't. Quoting: I am forced again and again to ask why the DE of KDE3.5 allows me to be productive but the DE of KDE4 does not, until it is modified into the simpler mode of KDE3.5 ? @RC, Very Easy. You refuse to make an effort to understand and/or learn how the new concept of KDE works. That should be OK with everyone else because it is your choice, but don't expect others to accept what you are trying to force on them. Quoting:Again and again, one reads rave reviews which make predictions based on the superb way in which KDE4 will assist its users to have views, plasmoids, improved work results, etc. etc. BUT, what you **don't** ever see are articles on how the writer has actually used those views, plasmoids, desktops, etc. to genuinely BE far more productive than KDE3.5. I cannot tell you why some did and others didn't, but here is one who did write about it in 2009. Things are even much better in 2011. http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/it-strategy/2009/07/02/ten-time-... Example of the growing pain back in 2008 and how people understood the process http://blogs.fsfe.org/shane/?cat=534 Making KDE 4 the way you want - 2008, Ridcully tried but fell short to understand the concept http://digg.com/story/r/Design_Your_Own_Desktop_with_KDE_4 How little it changed for some in terms of the interface. http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/3820291/Wh... Finally, In stead of listing again why I believe KDE 4 is more productive to me, I give you this link to read a particular post under an editorial written by, who else but the famously eloquent Carla Schroder A.K.A. tuxchick. Article http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2011-01-28-02... Related posts, http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2011-01-28-02... http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2011-01-28-02... http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2011-01-28-02... I believe I responded more than enough and this is my last post on this subject even though I will still read and laugh at what other silly stuff is added. |
| jdixon Apr 03, 2011 12:56 PM EDT |
> ...and already have proven them wrong no matter how they twist thing or try to change the subject. Yeah, right. If what you've produced is your idea of proof, don't plan on a career in mathematics. > ...what I care about is those who are not biased and appreciate the facts. And what if the "facts" show that the KDE4 developers are arrogant condescending jerks who don't deserve the time of day? What then? > Speak for yourself because you can't prove any of that especially when KDE 4 has a huge user base and growing and believe otherwise. And you can't prove your position either. For every happy KDE4 user, we can locate at least one former KDE user who switched desktop environments rather than use it. > You refuse to make an effort to understand and/or learn how the new concept of KDE works. Why should he? > ...but don't expect others to accept what you are trying to force on them. Again, with the deliberate misuse of words. He isn't trying to force anyone to do anything. He isn't even trying to convince anyone not to use KDE4. You're the one trying to convince folks. And failing abysmally. And finally you provide the links other people have been asking for. I'll leave them decide if the links make your case or not, since I wasn't the one asking, and frankly don't care how good a desktop environment KDE4 may or may not be. > I believe I responded more than enough and this is my last post on this subject... I can only hope. |
| tracyanne Apr 03, 2011 5:55 PM EDT |
@FettooshQuoting:@TA, Speak for yourself because you can't prove any of that especially when KDE 4 has a huge user base and growing and believe otherwise. Your words : "if you don't have enough information or knowledge about how to use KDE 4, or how to use a specific feature, don't assume anything." My conclusion, based on your words: "Clearly KDE is convoluted and illogical, and your own words confirm that major handholding is required." Should I draw some other conclusion from your words, especially when they confirm my experience. fettoosh I didn't set out to prove anything. The only person here trying to prove anything, is yourself. I have merely stated my feelings towards KDE4, described what is in my experience the differences between moving to KDE4, and moving to any other desktop. You on the contrary seem desperate to prove my experience, and that of others wrong. You also seem desperate to prove my feelings towards KDE4 wrong. What makes you so desperate to do these things? is it arrogance? is it fear? |
| tracyanne Apr 03, 2011 6:12 PM EDT |
From http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/it-strategy/2009/07/02/ten-time-... Quoting:Folder view This is one of the default widgets. You will find it on your desktop after installation. This is one of the things about KDE4 that I find less useful, about as useful to me as having icons on the desktop. The claim is that by having a folder view on your desktop you can easily browse folders. This not the case. In practice, because folder view is, just like desktop icons, and the wallpaper, anchored to the desktop I have to minimise, or in some other way move open windows out of the way in order to access this 'feature'. Rather than save me time, this feature gets in my way, and interfeers with my work flow. This was an early complaint of mine during the 4.0 release cycle. Quoting:Konqueror profiles If you have not fully accepted Dolphin as your KDE 4 file management tool, then every time you open Konqueror, it opens in web browser mode. There are ways around this, of course, and one is to use the Konqueror profiles widget. Konqueror on KDE4 is a mere shell of Konqueror on KDE3.5.x, enough said. The following are all desktop widgets. Any comments I made concerning Folder view apply also to them: News Pager Twitter Microblog Notes Color picker Plasmoid spellcheck Logview Server status In addition the number of times per day that I open a Twitter Microblog is exactly Zero, no more no less. Also RSS new feed, it's easier and simpler to use a news agregate site like lxer. I am willing to bet the ZDNet reviewer did not use any of these features in a production environment, and merely tried them out for the review. |
| Ridcully Apr 03, 2011 6:18 PM EDT |
For Fettoosh.........and you illustrate perfectly in this quote and the link, my point about *predictions* about work enhancement with KDE4 rather than actual personal descriptions of how KDE4 is better than KDE3.5.Quoting:I cannot tell you why some did and others didn't, but here is one who did write about it in 2009. Things are even much better in 2011. The above link takes one to the story "Ten time-saving apps for KDE 4 productivity ." All it does is describe how these widgets are predicted to help you in your daily work. I read the article and then I searched deliberately on the word "I" (in upper case) with FireFox throughout the entire 2 page article. Not once, repeat "not once", did Jack Wallen actually say "I did this and these are my results which show that compared with KDE3.5, I can do my work so much better in KDE4 because........" Again, this is a rave article/review of prediction that KDE4 could/will be so helpful, good to use etc. etc........but the article is useless as evidence that a user has demonstrated for himself that KDE4 does a better job than KDE3.5. I remain firmly unconvinced as to KDE4's superiority over KDE3.5 with respect to enhancement of productivity. Currently, I am not aware of any articles which are specifically written to show how the author actually used KDE4's complex structures themselves in order to produce productivity gains over KDE3.5 and that is a dreadful indictment in my perception. If, as you obviously believe Fettoosh, KDE4 enhances productivity compared with KDE3.5, then by now (with KDE4.6 released) those articles should be pretty much everywhere - but as far as I can see, they aren't. Three years to get that sort of outcome is long enough I feel. Again I stress, I have KDE4 running in simple KDE3.5 mode. It is stable, fast enough and easy to use. I need none of the glitz, bells and whistles, cashews, desktop views, so why, why are all these things present in KDE4 unless people are using them in daily work and the real users are producing strong evidence that they DO make things better ? It smells almost entirely of complexity for complexity's sake. |
| tracyanne Apr 03, 2011 6:29 PM EDT |
From http://blogs.fsfe.org/shane/?cat=534 Quoting:Advanced features This is exactly what I'm talking about. I have to move my open windows out of the way. This interfeers with my work flow. In fact having to remember which CTRL Key combination does what and then actuating it breaks my train of thought. |
| jdixon Apr 03, 2011 6:38 PM EDT |
>> I'll leave them decide if the links make your case or not... > This is one of the things about KDE4 that I find less useful > I remain firmly unconvinced as to KDE4's superiority over KDE3. Your honor, the prosecution rests it's case. :) |
| tracyanne Apr 03, 2011 6:52 PM EDT |
There's not much I can say about this one http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/osrc/article.php/12068_3820... Bruce never actually went into specifics, he says he likes it, fine more power to him. At best this review by Carla http://www.linuxtoday.com/news_story.php3?ltsn=2011-01-28-02... is less than glowing. I think her final 2 paragraphs sum it up Quoting:I imagine some readers are thinking "You should report bugs and help improve KDE4." Which is a valid viewpoint because community support is what makes FOSS work. But I'm not going to. There are several other FOSS projects that I support as best as I can, that are valuable and useful to me. We all have to choose where to invest our limited resources, and mine go to projects that make sense to me. BTW, I have never complained anywhere about bugs in KDE4, if I had come across any (or any that I recognised as bugs) I would have pointed them out. My only complaint has been it's much lauded functionality 'improvements', which I have found not to be, and the fact that I can't, or can't easily personalise KDE4 to suit my patterns of use.... whereas I find GNOME and XFCE especially easy to so. An I am in no way interested in changing my patterns of use to suit a desktop. KDE4 does not work for me, period. My biggest complaint about KDE4 is that did not get what I was lead to believe I would get. The following comment at... misses the point Quoting:I agree completely!! If some of these people dislike KDE 4.x so much, then don't use it. Just shut up about it and stop bad mouthing it to anyone who will listen! While early builds of KDE 4 were developmental, unstable and lacking key features, that has changed dramatically. Things took a leap forward with KDE 4.3 and I find KDE 4.5.x (and especially the new 4.6) to be breathtaking. You're right, everything a user doesn't need can be disabled or removed. I wish the die hards the best of luck trying to maintain KDE 3.5.x in the form of Unity. They're going to need it! Disabling all the things will not improve KDE4s functionality, and certanly won't make it fit my workflow patterns. But so far as I can see from trying, nothing will. |
| hkwint Apr 05, 2011 11:33 AM EDT |
Quoting:In fact having to remember which CTRL Key combination does what and then actuating it breaks my train of thought. I guess by now you might have been using some Win7 box, and if you ever had a mouse with lots of buttons, you might have noticed about the same functionality is behind those mouse buttons. Makes more sense than using CTRL key combinations, which most people would probably detest. My keyboard also has such a key, which I sometimes hit by accident. So those problems could be solved, given the right hardware. Quoting:And what if the "facts" show that the KDE4 developers are arrogant condescending jerks who don't deserve the time of day? What then? Oh boy, you certainly shouldn't be a mathematician either, thinking you can prove anyone is a jerk. In Dutch there's a (childshood-)saying: "What you call others, you are yourself". I mean, you don't sit in your chair at home and complain when Medicins Sans Frontières in a disaster area only save 30 people while 100 other people die I hope? Facts show, if you complain about volunteers doing their work badly, most of the times it would be better for the world if you help them instead of calling them arrogant condescending jerks. And when in a disaster, are you going to blame MSF because they don't save you? Maybe they did so because somewhere else they were rescuing 100 people who were out of your sight. Claiming you can perform "bijection" when you don't know "what's around the corner" is the most stupid thing to do, from a mathematical point of view you only claim bijection when you add a proof. Most of the times using induction. I'm pretty sure given k people who like KDE, you can not proof you can find a k+1'th person who is dissatisfied with it for any number of K; those are only your assumptions. It's OK if you don't like the software they make, but that's no reason to insult people who do their best to make something other people can use / like. Also, it's pretty stupid to say things about "user satisfaction" if there are no facts supporting your view or the opposite. As you might now, discussing non-falsifiable claims is pretty useless in first place. |
| jdixon Apr 05, 2011 2:05 PM EDT |
> ...you certainly shouldn't be a mathematician either... I'm not, nor do I claim to be. However, show is not the same verb as prove. And please note that there is a question mark at the end of that sentence. It is not a statement of fact. > ...most of the times it would be better for the world if you help them... People tried Hans. The responses are what lead me to my conclusions. > ...I'm pretty sure given k people who like KDE, you can not proof you can find a k+1'th person who is dissatisfied with it... I don't need to prove it. All I need to do is ask and start counting. Some things don't need proof, merely documentation. > It's OK if you don't like the software they make, but that's no reason to insult people who do their best to make something other people can use / like. Quoting a song I've been known to listen to: "If that's your best, your best won't do." And if you don't consider their replies to people's complaints insulting, then we have no real basis for a discussion on the matter. And Fettoosh's "I believe the majority of the complains are mostly due to mis-information and the lack of it among other things." is merely a lukewarm rehashing of the same. If telling people who don't agree with you that they simply don't understand isn't arrogant and condescending, I don't know what is. > Also, it's pretty stupid to say things about "user satisfaction" if there are no facts supporting your view or the opposite. I don't believe I've used that term any where in this conversation. |
| hkwint Apr 06, 2011 6:56 AM EDT |
Consider 'user satisfaction' equal to the number of people not switching to another DE I'd say. It's not what you're saying, it's the tone and words chosen which really annoy me. Now you're saying "you're best won't do", which is a much better way to stress your concerns than calling people arrogant jerks. In my opinion, labeling volunteer developers that way is not something which should be part of a polite disussion. |
| jdixon Apr 06, 2011 9:55 AM EDT |
> Consider 'user satisfaction' equal to the number of people not switching to another DE I'd say. No one's done a count, true. > It's not what you're saying, it's the tone and words chosen which really annoy me. And how am I supposed to respond to people who insist on continually telling me "water's not wet and the sky's not blue" on a regular basis? KDE4 is a complete change over from KDE3. Saying otherwise is lying. The things people could do in KDE3 they can't do in KDE4, many times for no obvious or logical reason. People who complained about this were told they they just didn't understand KDE4, and that in the end if they weren't developers their opinion didn't matter. Water is wet. The sky is blue. And people who say things like that are arrogant, condescending jerks. > In my opinion, labeling volunteer developers that way is not something which should be part of a polite disussion. Their public responses to KDE3.5 users trying in vain to make KDE4 work for them should never have been part of a polite discussion. I'm merely responding to their tone in kind. As with tracyanne, the term "arrogant, condescending jerks" is actually a TOS limited version of what I would otherwise call them. And yes, this entirely a personal opinion. I've never claimed otherwise. I don't use KDE4. I have no intention of using KDE4. And the KDE4 developers have only themselves to thank for that. |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 06, 2011 12:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:RE: ... telling me "water's not wet and the sky's not blue" jd, Sorry, but indeed you are the one that may in error here. The first is may not be as readily apparent, however, I am sure in the second it takes just a mundane observation or two to disprove it. Let's begin where I take "wet" to be the vernacular understanding of the sensation. However, there are masses of water in the gaseous phase that is not wet to the touch. Indeed if the humidity is not too high you may be unaware, consciously, of its presence. And the solid phase at a sufficiently low temperature could make a simple touch by an uninsulated finger a painful experience as your digit is welded to its solid surface. Now about the sky, don't tell me the night sky is blue. What about a pervasive cloudy day where rain is threatened? Blue in a pig's eye it is. Perhaps it is memory that is deceiving you. It happens, my memories of Chicago area winters had crystal clear skies and my being comfortable in rolled up shirt sleeves outdoors at ten above zero. However, that was not typical weather for that area. Memories lead us astray. Speaking of memories of KDE 4, what I remember best were the outraged rants protesting the then current release of Ubuntu with KDE 4.0 as only an option - not as the default these stalwarts claimed to be its due. They shouted on-line that it was READY! Why is it now forgotten? As I have read in perhaps this thread, no one claimed early version were ready. Really? Perhaps such claims belong with the Stalinist teams that rewrote histories. It looks like even defenders are somewhat defensive. Throwing pigs before swine, what do you get? To many droppings I say. As always jd, YBT |
| jdixon Apr 06, 2011 1:31 PM EDT |
Thanks for pointing out the limitations of my points, txt. Your input is always valued. :) |
| number6x Apr 06, 2011 2:00 PM EDT |
There is also the background events that happened during the KDE 4 development period that had an affect on all of this. S.u.S.E. Gmbh was a very large supporter of the KDE DE. SuSE always featured many DE's but was a very strong KDE supporter and contributor.
After SuSE became part of Novell and became a Gnome-centric, KDE lost out some of its best help. I'm not complaining about this, and not saying that the KDE team was dependent on SuSE. Just noting that those changes have consequences. |
| ComputerBob Apr 06, 2011 2:24 PM EDT |
Quoting:Now about the sky, don't tell me the night sky is blue. Where I live, the night sky is a beautiful dark blue. It's never, ever black. Possibly because we're surrounded by water and are within 20 miles of a city. |
| hkwint Apr 06, 2011 4:57 PM EDT |
Quoting:And how am I supposed to respond to people who insist on continually telling me "water's not wet and the sky's not blue" My supposal: Like a wise, polite man of your statue you have proven to be over time. Not like an urban-style gangsta. I think your arguments are strong enough not to need that kind of language. I easily admit such a comment aimed only at you can be perceived pretty arbitrary, but one has to start somewhere to try not to let the discussion deteriorate. Most discussions I saw where people started to use that kind of language, did. I can know, because I've been contributing to those flamefests myself in the past - as you'll probably remember. But I try to improve a bit, as you also might have noticed I changed my previous post to be less 'flaming' as well. |
| tmx Apr 06, 2011 8:47 PM EDT |
Quoting:About the original post, unless for some specific compatible reason, not sure why one wouldn't switch to Firefox 4, the speed performance is as much as 200% base on benchmarks.Sorry, but I have to retract my comment. On my dad's Windows computer I have to keep it at Firefox3 because 4 for some reason is not compatible with several multimedia plugins, such as can't play Windows Media contents. It's very strange, but I never found a solution to it since beta 1. Also a bit off topic, afterward I did Windows Live Essentials update on the laptop (don't ask why) and it shows me a screen saving the activation for this Windows pre-release is out of date, even though the laptop was bought legally from the store with the factory's Windows installation. Also GoogleSharing addon is now compatible with Firefox 4. |
| jdixon Apr 06, 2011 9:14 PM EDT |
> My supposal: Like a wise, polite man of your statue you have proven to be over time. Hans, you know how to make a convincing argument. :) OK. I'll try to tone down the rhetoric. No promises though. However, feel free to delete anything you feel crosses the line. That's your job, after all. > Not like an urban-style gangsta. Well, there's very little gangsta like about my comments. If you think there is, you need to broaden your music selection some. Believe me, what I've said is mild in comparison to what I could say (not here, of course), and positively complimentary compared to what those folks would say. :) > I easily admit such a comment aimed only at you can be perceived pretty arbitrary, but one has to start somewhere to try not to let the discussion deteriorate As I said, that's your job. If you feel I'm being overly inflammatory, I'll try to tone it down. I thought you were taking issue with the validity of my tone, not the effect on the fora. I apologize for assuming. |
| hkwint Apr 07, 2011 6:40 AM EDT |
JD, no, it's not my job, I'm not authorized to delete / change anything in forums, nor am I willing to. So you're responsible yourself! What the urban style gangsta's say is unknown where I live, as per the invention of the beep. |
| jdixon Apr 07, 2011 7:21 AM EDT |
> What the urban style gangsta's say is unknown where I live... You're not missing anything. :) |
| Scott_Ruecker Apr 07, 2011 12:42 PM EDT |
Ok, so I know things have gotten kinda heated in this thread..an understatement but still.. Everybody alright in here? For my part, staying on topic always helps in proving my point..;-) |
| dinotrac Apr 08, 2011 9:28 AM EDT |
@nalf38: Are you serious? Quoting:the release of KDE3 was pretty much the same; it 'wasn't usable until 3.5. I ran every release of KDE from pre-1.0 betas through 3.5.x prior to jumping ship. KDE 2.x was a wee bit rough, but 3.x was perfectly usable. Yes, 3.5 was better, but pretending that the problems with 4.0 were somehow equivalent to those with 3.0 is just plain silly. |
| Koriel Apr 08, 2011 3:13 PM EDT |
I just like Dino, am astonished at the statement below "release of KDE3 was pretty much the same; it 'wasn't usable until 3.5." I also have used every KDE ever released right up to 4.6, some of the 1.x issues could be ropey but from about 2.1 onwards the word stability was practically invented by KDE or at least until 4.0 escaped. |
| number6x Apr 08, 2011 4:53 PM EDT |
Wasn't KDE 3 mostly a code clean up and speed increase over KDE 2? I thought the functionality changed very little. There was a new print subsystem, support for kiosks and better support for gnome and apps based on non-qt stuff. I remember kde3 being mostly the same but faster than kde 2 |
| Ridcully Apr 08, 2011 6:17 PM EDT |
Quoting:In all seriousness, has anyone yet seen a review that praises Gnome 3 as an improvement in the series and possesses the ability to streamline and enhance productive and professional work ? That was my first simple question which started this thread. So......by the look of it, the answer is "not yet" ? I am fairly sure those reviews don't exist for KDE4 after more than 3 years, but that's a different topic. "Wait and see" and "Watch this space" are two marvellous little statements. I find that what you get in these reviews of the new swinging and dancing DE is always an article produced by a writer dripping with enthusiasm as he or she details all the new "things" that are present; but what you never find (as far as I can see) is precise details on how that writer personally used them himself/herself to produce the better productivity ~ the articles always "predict" that they will help, but never say "I did this and my results (shown here) detail how it got better compared with the previous version of the DE." That's how I think it was and is for KDE4 - and why I often question the need for KDE4's increased complexity given that my first reaction is to put KDE4 into the simpler and (to me) more useful KDE3.5 mode. I wonder if it will be any different for Gnome3. |
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