gnome3
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| klhrevolution Mar 02, 2011 1:07 PM EDT |
It's worth trying out I guess but I am grateful that xfce and lxde exist. It seems everybody is trying to come up with something new and radical to be considered 'today's' window manager / desktop. As for ubuntu it will be nice for my netbook but as for my other machines I'll more then likely stick to to debian with xfce or lxde or maybe a custom jwm/pcmanfm config. I'm sure tommorow's gnu/linux user will look at those of us as 'oldies' for using such archaic wm's :D |
| jdixon Mar 02, 2011 1:21 PM EDT |
> ...Day thinks that a cluster of buttons on one side of the title bar distracts from the center window title. OK. Highly debatable, but a valid point of view. > And probably the most significant, he thinks the button removals will open up that space for other functionalities down the road. Wait a minute: We're going to take away existing functionality because it improves the user interface, but don't worry, we'll replace it with something of our choosing at a later date. And how will that not "distract from the center window title"? Sigh KDE 4 redux, here we come. i swear, it's enough to make one wonder if Microsoft has paid off the Gnome and KDE developers to sabotage Linux. |
| tmx Mar 02, 2011 1:37 PM EDT |
I have to contradict what I said earlier. I've both installed Unity and KDE SC. This time I took time with KDE and went through all the settings and disable animation and effects. Unless its me, even without proprietary video driver installed, KDE is more responsive. Especially in Gnome 2 different GTK2 themes can cause slow down variably. At least between the two most popular linux desktop environments and Unity, KDE which was thought to make the biggest departure is now the only one making a concerting effort to create a balance between old desktop and new generation usability. People like to come up with gimmick concepts, but the taskbar since Windows95 has been the most efficient. I can see where this is going, they're gonna force me to use thumbnail or icons to switch between tabs in Firefox, instead of text tabs. Gnome Shell and Unity seem to just force their interface down the users throat. KDE automatically detects between desktop and netbook and apply the interface. Distros should just make it more apparent for the users and give them the choice during installation. Have a selection window with the following choices: Automatically detect best desktop layout for your computer, Gnome2, Unity. Also the button to switch desktop interface at the login screen should be more obvious. I really think new users to Linux will confuses between Gnome Shell and Unity. Or I could be wrong and they'll pick it up right away since it resembles iPhone and iPad interface. One thing I like from the new KDE SC is in addition to the Aero snap from Windows 7, I can even drag the window to one of the four corners and it automatically resize to 1/4th of the screen. If I want to do real productivity work, and I have to choose between Gnome Shell, Unity and KDE4. The only obvious choice is the latter. |
| pmpatrick Mar 02, 2011 2:35 PM EDT |
This whole thing reminds of the nautilus "folder view" that gnome tried to force on users several years ago and I predict it will be about as successful. |
| tuxchick Mar 02, 2011 2:55 PM EDT |
Why use a DE that requires all kinds of tweaking just to get it out of its own way and making it marginally useful? Gimmicks and lard, and efficiency and actual usability continue their steep downhill slide. |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 02, 2011 3:30 PM EDT |
I'm taking a wait-and-see approach with GNOME 3 and GNOME Shell. When I loaded the OpenSUSE build that supposedly featured GNOME Shell, it looked like regular GNOME to me, so my hardware must not have been designated as properly being able to handle it. GNOME 2 will be around for a long time, as it's the base of Debian Squeeze, Ubuntu<11.04, etc. As far as alternatives go, I hope Xfce 4.8 isn't so Linux-bound that it won't run in OpenBSD and FreeBSD. |
| Ridcully Mar 02, 2011 5:55 PM EDT |
My concern is that from my sidelines, I see this as a classic case of the "baby out with the bath water". I don't use Gnome, never have, but this begins to look like development for novelty. My impression of Gnome (I have a friend who won't use anything else and I get fed info about the Gnome world all the time) until now has always been that "Gnome just works", and that users were very happy with its interface and speed.....Apparently either I had the wrong impressions and the users were clamouring for changes.....or perhaps the developers decided a solid and fast DE was just too, too dull. The Chinese have a curse: may you live in interesting times. Looks like Gnome is living in interesting times ? |
| helios Mar 02, 2011 6:17 PM EDT |
I've looked at this on and off all day, trying to get my head around this change. I'm not seein' the benefit. Removing the nav buttons to make room for possible improvements in the future? The nav bar takes up maybe a 1/4 inch of space on my Samsung 24 inch monitor. What is so big or important that the buttons have to go all Hitchhiker's guide on us. LIke Canonical with Unity and Gnome with this revelation, my mantra dominates: "If it ain't broke, fix it 'til it is. sheesh. |
| theboomboomcars Mar 02, 2011 6:23 PM EDT |
I haven't encountered anybody when looking for the title of the window came across the buttons, and said that they thought line box x was an odd title. It gets a bit frustrating when everything is done like the end people are idiots. Most of us, if not all of us, are not so incompetent that we get confused by everything. |
| flufferbeer Mar 02, 2011 6:25 PM EDT |
@tmx,
> Gnome Shell and Unity seem to just force their interface down the users throat. I agree and its terrible. Their apologists are almost saying "Oh we don't really care what you use. If you don't like Gnome and Unity, then leave it. Plenty of OTHER people are starting to use the latest Gnome and Unity just fine, so you can get lost and JUST TRY using xfce or lxde for all we developers and supporters care." No no no, that's a bad attitude! An attitude such as that no matter how cleverly disguised will just cause people to FLEE using Gnome and Unity, or even the actual DISTROS that lean on so heavily on these.. Just my 2c on this. |
| mrider Mar 02, 2011 6:35 PM EDT |
Thank goodness for XFCE. I just hope they don't start drinking from the same well as the Gnome and KDE folks... |
| klhrevolution Mar 02, 2011 7:50 PM EDT |
Another thought is: perhaps this is the straw that breaks the camel's back for some gnome developer's and they decide to start taking a more active role with lxde, xfce or something even lighter, better & more robust... Hey, it could happen! |
| jdixon Mar 02, 2011 8:19 PM EDT |
> I hope Xfce 4.8 isn't so Linux-bound that it won't run in OpenBSD and FreeBSD. A quick Google search shows that Xfce is available for FreeBSD. |
| helios Mar 03, 2011 1:14 AM EDT |
I'm not sure Xfce will meet the needs of some Gnome users, I would be one of those. There is a lack of scripted and other functionality within Thunar that just doesn't do the job for me. And that's fine...people switch to "lighter" DE's because they consider some of that functionality "bloat"...whereas I consider those functions mission-critical. I like my script that can move a file anywhere on my system with two mouse clicks...faster than even drag and drop if you do it often enough. Last time I used Xfce, Thunar was at best a good file viewer and a bit off the mark as a file manager. I don't think anyone can come into one camp after leaving another and completely leave what they did behind. Often I fear there would be more arguments than innovation. I'm just sayin' apples are apples, and...well, you know. |
| tuxchick Mar 03, 2011 2:22 AM EDT |
Well geez ken, then install a different file manager. Like Emelfm, which is super-nifty. Or Nautilus or whatever you want. |
| jacog Mar 03, 2011 6:45 AM EDT |
Hmmm, and why do we need to focus on the window title anyway? I'd think that the aplication we're using should be the focus, not its window title. |
| helios Mar 03, 2011 10:10 AM EDT |
@ jacog...I can agree with that. My main concern is in how efficient it will be to do it the "new way" as opposed to the traditional nav bar. I suppose actually getting in there and doing it would be a better test than just looking at a series of screenshots. I'd be better prepared to comment...course, never let it be said that I missed an opportunity to criticize before knowing how something really works. I have a rep to keep up you know... TC...personally I am fairly happy with Gnome. It's a comfortable environment for me whereas I find Xfce doesn't meet my needs. I spend inordinate amounts of time in my file manager and while I miss some of the functionality of the old Konqueror, I've adapted to the changes and have found ways to make it work quickly and efficiently. I guess my point, if any, is that I find it a bit strange to install a light weight DE, then replace or augment present apps, thus fattening the environment. If I found Xfce comfortable, then I suppose that would be fine...I just personally don't care for Xfce, but many do. And you are right. Emelfm2 is a rockin' file manager. When you get into some of the functionality, you come to realize how powerful it is. |
| tracyanne Mar 03, 2011 7:52 PM EDT |
Just a note Linux Mint 11 will be using GNOME 3... but NOT GNOME Shell, which means it will look pretty much like the current GNOME 2 desktop that Linux Mint currently use. |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 03, 2011 9:13 PM EDT |
I consider Nautilus and Thunar rather interchangeable, meaning I'm OK using either or both in GNOME or Xfce. |
| helios Mar 03, 2011 9:24 PM EDT |
I'm burning the Mint Xfce project now...will revisit since it's been a while. Will do a hard install on spare partition. I'll be back.... Uh, do I have to pay anyone royalties for saying that? Just checkin'... |
| Ridcully Mar 04, 2011 3:33 AM EDT |
I've been meditating on this latest "improvement" from Gnome and I think tmx has hit the button. The resemblance of the "new" Gnome DE to a smart-phone screen is pretty obvious to me at any rate, but I have the feeling that there is a very large problem. Although I don't use a smart phone, I am surrounded by people that do and I watch them interact with their devices. My observations are that the way they use a smart phone with finger strokes is rather different from the way I (and others like me) use a desktop or a laptop computer for writing or databasing. In my opinion, interactive procedures that are sensible on a tiny screen with limited display area do not readily carry over to productive work flows on a larger screen where you also have mouse and keyboard. The latter may be "old tools" in the computer world, but they are superb for data entry and manipulation. Anything that reduces their effectiveness is simply an absurdity. There is an article by Susan Linton currently on LXer which compares the popularity of the various DE's: "What is Your Favorite Desktop?" Susan notes the dramatic fall in KDE popularity, modified of course by the increasing popularity of Ubuntu and its principle DE of Gnome. I'd like to know how much of that fall was also due to KDE4. However Susan indicates that what she is really waiting for is to see what effect Ubuntu's Unity will have on these results......Could be very applicable to the way Gnome is currently travelling. |
| JaseP Mar 04, 2011 10:19 AM EDT |
Whatever they do has to take modern interface devices into consideration. By that, I mean touch screens, accelerometers, motion capture devices (ala Kinect® style devices), voice control and, in the future, neuro-feedback and location sensors. My guess is that they are not thinking in those terms. Or, at least at the level of attention given, isn't that forward-thinking. |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 04, 2011 1:57 PM EDT |
@helios - You might like the Xfce base with Nautilus added. I don't do any scripting in the file manager, so I would be OK with Thunar. What didn't work for me in Xfce when I was in Fedora 13 was the lack of networking ability in Thunar. I wanted to set up FTP in the file manager, and Gigolo - the tool that does that in some Xfce distros - didn't work for me. I ended up using Filezilla for my FTP needs, and now that I'm in GNOME I haven't bothered to set up Nautilus for http://FTP. I'm still using Filezilla for everything. |
| number6x Mar 04, 2011 5:43 PM EDT |
XFCE with Nautilus?
Funny, I use gnome 2.X with Thunar.
I've got everything set to use Thunar instead of Nautilus except for the trash.
I still can't delete Nautilus because it is the desktop in gnome, but I'm much happier with Thunar's snappy response time. BTW, I downloaded the live SuSE gnome3 demo and ran it from usb. The navigation buttons were on all my windows, and they were on the right side. |
| klhrevolution Mar 05, 2011 3:43 PM EDT |
I keep getting headlines about gnome3 in liferea and it appears gnome3 is taking a cue from Shuttleworth's ideas.. It seems that way, which is fine but I'm pretty sure I'll not be using gnome3. No minimize, maximize, no panel that I'll recognize and who knows what else they've got in store for gnome3. Hope it works out for them, in the end, but, they sure are alienating a large user-base. gnome3 https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=631553 @helios try pcmanfm |
| caitlyn Mar 05, 2011 4:33 PM EDT |
Quoting:Why use a DE that requires all kinds of tweaking just to get it out of its own way and making it marginally useful? Gimmicks and lard, and efficiency and actual usability continue their steep downhill slide.Somehow DE developers have gotten the crazy idea that in order to have the next big thing they have to throw out all that has gone before. I don't get it. I really don't. Quoting:I'm taking a wait-and-see approach with GNOME 3 and GNOME Shell.Me too. Honestly, I don't like what I've seen so far but it isn't a finished product. Unity, OTOH, has no appeal to me whatsoever. I don't even like that sort of interface on a netbook. A computer is not a cell phone, folks. I really like Xfce but I wish they had the ability to have sounds for certain events in the DE. I don't like my DE noisy and, yes, some distros make GNOME or KDE noisy by default. OTOH, some auditory cues are nice. LXDE is lacking too much, particularly for folks like me who have to change keyboard layouts and even character sets. I guess I'm not a file manager power user because Thunar is adequate for me. OTOH, pcmanfm and emelfm are nice alternatives. [Note: edited for typos and formatting only.] |
| tracyanne Mar 05, 2011 7:20 PM EDT |
Quoting:I keep getting headlines about gnome3 in liferea and it appears gnome3 is taking a cue from Shuttleworth's ideas.. It seems that way, which is fine but I'm pretty sure I'll not be using gnome3. No minimize, maximize, no panel that I'll recognize and who knows what else they've got in store for gnome3. Hope it works out for them, in the end, but, they sure are alienating a large user-base. To all, who continue to complain about GNOME 3. Please explain to me how it is that Linux Mint will be using GNOME 3, and it will have ALL of the functions and visual aspects we associate with GNOME 2, Including minimize, maximize, and panel. |
| helios Mar 05, 2011 9:47 PM EDT |
TA, we are all sort of stand-by shareholders in many Linux and Free Software projects. I think the mindshare that has a physical and emotional representation of those shares feels that things are going in the wrong direction. Of which I am one. Of course, Clem and the Mint folks have their finger on our pulse, as always....they get it right way more often than not Sure we are blessed that someone is listening to us, but that's only one car in the train....again, I simply don't believe in radical change or any change for that matter just for the sake of change is a good thing. Wow...that was a lot of "change" |
| tracyanne Mar 07, 2011 5:01 PM EDT |
Ken the point here is that GNOME 3 isn't the huge departure from GNOME 2 that everyone seems to think. In fact as far as I've been able to ascertain it's no departure at all., as the Linux Mint result will bare out. I believe the problem is too many people are assuming GNOME Shell is GNOME 3, it's not. GNOME Shell is part of GNOME 3, the part that has received almost all of the marketing love so far. GNOME Shell works in it's place, on small screen devices, like netbooks, but more particularly touch screen devices, like tablets, as does Unity. Neither of them, no matter how their supporters like to think so, work well or at all on large screens and multi screen rigs, they are quite simply the wrong paradigm. |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 07, 2011 7:50 PM EDT |
They did a bad PR job. If you can have your GNOME 3 and eat it like "2," they should have said so. |
| klhrevolution Mar 07, 2011 8:28 PM EDT |
Yeah, I hope it's just bad PR job myself. It's a wait & see kinda thing unless your willing to go bleeding edge, which I'm unable to do atm. Here's to gnome3! For creating a big splash and enticing a lot of folks into the future of the project. |
| hkwint Mar 08, 2011 3:42 PM EDT |
JaseP: May I wholeheartedly agree to that! Desktops are stationary things in offices. But the near future is mobile. And you can't carry a desktop along. Ubuntu understood it, that's why I feel they're moving away from the 'DE'. Maybe Gnome has understood it, and they're also moving more to the PE. KDE probably not, I don't think their phat binaries run that well on phone-like hardware, though I may be false about that. Qt is great for phones, but MS has been very successful in making Nokia abandon Qt (today there was some news about how they sould 'licensing Qt'). So what do we have left? I'd say, Android currently offers the best experience for 'mobile devices'. I don't have a clue what their 'DE' is called, but it seems to do fine with touchscreens and accelerometers, and maybe also with 3D-gestures. So I'm afraid as far as far as the most important adagio of this decade - being "Mobile 3C" is concerned (content consuming computing) is concerned, KDE and Gnome pretty much lost that 'battle' - if there ever was one. Currently, I'm pretty sure that's where Linux is the most successful, given number of phone / tablet sales. Maybe not in total number of users, but at least stats show great progress and gains. Linux is still at 1% market share. Even if that measurement is flawed, the flaw is 'constant' - and it hasn't risen the last decade AFAIK. So all there's left for KDE and Gnome is for the few who actually like to "be productive", and I think LXDE / XFCE (and some others) understand pretty well lots of 'producers' don't want bells & whistles to get in the way of actually producing something. Because after all, bells & whistles are meant for 'consuming'. That's why I'm on WindowMaker - a pretty 'unmaintained' platform, but good enough for typing in the browser, running some office app and a personal information manager. Maybe some photo managing / editing, but I think most people don't need more than that, and I don't think an environment managing those 4 basic tasks has to be very complex. Now, it seems KDE itself is fulfilling some of these tasks - or trying so, instead of leaving it up to the apps themselves. But it's confusing people, so I don't hope Gnome will follow. After all, most people don't like 'browsers' push of widgets to the desktop (web applications outside the browser), nor do they like the KDE-widgets showing web info on their desktop. That model may suit a phone environment, but not on the DE it seems. Still though, some of the bells and whistles add to productivity, like the "Aero Snap" function mentioned. I found out about it by accident at work on a Win7-workstation. But transparent titlebars and such, I don't get them. So I hope Gnome will keep an eye on which bells / whistles actually enhance productivity, and which don't. I think such was the task of Gnome Shell (what I saw from it), and if it meets the requirements of raising productivity without distracting, I think it will be pretty successful. |
| tracyanne Mar 08, 2011 6:53 PM EDT |
@Steven_Rosenber, I think I recall it was you who tried Unity on a VM, and complained that you didn't get unity but instead a standard GNOME desktop with a different menu button than Ubuntu normally use... that was a standard GNOME 3 desktop. Found it, here's the information, it's on this page Linux Mint 11: “Katya” Quoting:# Clem Says: February 22nd, 2011 at 5:47 am |
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