They haven't changed, they've learned nothing
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| tracyanne Dec 21, 2010 9:32 PM EDT |
Even after all the uproar over KDE4, and the continuing angst. the KDE developers are as arrogant as ever. This: Quoting:Maybe you should submit an proposal... is a typical response from the KDE developers. It ignores completely that the biggest complaint is that 1) KDE4 is unstable 2) that the features we all loved and used in KDE3 are either no longer there or don't work properly and 3) that the stuff that most people need for normal day to day stuff is ignored while the KDE4 developers wander of on tangents. When I had the temerity to complain about KDE4 a few years ago I got a similar response, only in my case the suggestion "write code" |
| Ridcully Dec 21, 2010 10:14 PM EDT |
Let me add some more and let there be no doubt that I am seriously annoyed with the KDE4 development path. A few posts back on another thread, I indicated I was trying to make sense out of the Personal Settings in order to change my colour scheme on open application windows. After several attempts I still cannot make "head nor tail" of how KDE4 does this, or even if it can be done. In KDE3.5, it was simplicity itself: you had a settings window which showed you immediately on a specimen/sample window what your changes would do and you could go back and forth on this sample and test out various ideas. You knew that you could trial out colour schemes and layouts but nothing was in concrete until you clicked "OK" (or whatever that button was). So far, my investigation has shown that the Personal Settings menu in KDE4 bears little or no resemblance to the Personal Settings menu in KDE3.5........It is an unpleasant and demeaning joke. If you want to use KDE4 Personal Settings, you have to relearn the entire thing and quite honestly, I don't have time for this sort of nonsense. So far, KDE4.4 has run reasonably well in my version that ties it down to a KDE3.5 desktop, but again, there are all sorts of small things that annoy me: huge icon "patches" that appear as large rectangles when the cursor goes over them; Dolphin which is insulting in its abilities compared with Konqueror in KDE3.5; the cashew which has no relevance whatsoever to the desktop; and the larger numbers of clicks that are needed to carry out personal settings. That will do for the moment. I remain convinced that KDE4 was produced for the coding pleasure of developers; it was not what the KDE3.5 user base asked for. As a result, the complexity of the KDE4 DE has increased enormously from the original simplicity of KDE3.5. My perceptions are that the KDE4 team continues to refuse to listen and act on to these constant complaints about what they have produced and worse still, that the KDE4 team is ignoring these complaints because to acknowledge them would suggest that: shock, horror, ....they may have headed down the wrong path. This K16 talk fest to me is just an excuse for self-congratulation ~ it needs some angry KDE3.5 users to gate-crash. I keep sane however by remembering that Trinity KDE3.5 is getting closer and closer to being a very, very viable answer to the KDE4 bloatware that has been produced. |
| skelband Dec 22, 2010 2:25 AM EDT |
I concur on this. One of the most useful KDE applications to me was kooka. They dropped it because "nobody does scanning in a standalone app". Well I do, and many others do besides. It's kinda like the attitude of the developers of Pidgin. Arrogant, petty and downright strange. |
| Ridcully Dec 22, 2010 4:20 AM EDT |
For Skelband: Try Vuescan........sure, it is a commercial binary, but it is dirt cheap (I think less than $50 for a single user) and it is a superb front end for the scanner drivers that are normally included in the distro package. It's all I have used now as a GUI scanner interface for the last 5 years.....Marvellous piece of software. I am currently running it on openSUSE 11.3 in KDE4.4. |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 22, 2010 4:49 PM EDT |
I'll be looking to see which distros will not only ship Trinity but which ones will do "spins" on it. I can see Fedora doing it, for sure. Maybe a Slackware-derived distro, and something PCLinuxOS-ish. |
| Ridcully Dec 22, 2010 6:21 PM EDT |
For Steven_Rosenberg.........For the first time you have put in print what I have been very seriously thinking might happen: sooner or later (and sooner, I hope), the major distros will begin to put Trinity into their DE selection set. If that happens I personally think that Trinity may seriously challenge KDE4 because Trinity KDE's speed and flexibility advantages over KDE4 are simply so obvious. With all the updates that are now being put in place on Trinity, I'd go so far as to predict that Trinity will provide the DE that KDE4 should have become. I am hoping openSUSE will include Trinity as an option to KDE4 even if it means removing one of the other alternative DEs....but all of this is guesswork. I am still patiently waiting for a Trinity release for openSUSE......very patiently. Sort of. :-) |
| tracyanne Dec 22, 2010 9:38 PM EDT |
http://trinity.pearsoncomputing.net/ There are stable releases for Maverik, and a Kubuntu Live CD with Trinity |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 23, 2010 12:15 AM EDT |
Nice! I'm not a big KDE fan, but I sympathize with those who don't like 4.x, and through open source you can vote with your feet (and your text editor). |
| Ridcully Dec 23, 2010 2:33 AM EDT |
Thankyou Tracyanne........I have now downloaded the Kubuntu Live CD with Trinity and am testing it........but already, it is sheer bliss to see a KDE Personal Settings menu that actually works the way it should instead of the dreadful dumbing down in KDE4. Can't wait for the openSUSE version. As before, I can change my screen colours and settings and see what they do in a sample screen before accepting them. One can only hope that somehow, someway, these comments get to Aaron Siego and his team.......but hey, they are off to a festival of self-congrats over KDE4 and plans for even more complexity, so even if they are noted, these comments aren't important - they're just the usual sour grapes whingers. I think I am getting a little cynical in my old age....... :-) |
| hkwint Dec 23, 2010 3:47 AM EDT |
Then why don't "we" come up with a kind of community voting system for K16? I'm willing to try to make a nice sheet or something this monday. |
| Ridcully Dec 23, 2010 3:56 AM EDT |
Great idea Hkwint........count me in.........have no idea what (if anything) I can do to help you, but I am a supporter of anything that tries to get the KDE4 team to listen to their user base - especially the part that they have turned off. |
| hkwint Dec 23, 2010 4:05 AM EDT |
Quoting:I am a supporter of anything that tries to get the KDE4 team to listen to their user base Then your task would be: Make up some scheme / website to reach that goal! I was thinking about community proposals + voting (think Dell IdeaStorm), a way for community members to post community polls (so people like you could post a poll: Do we want new features or no new futures and more stability?), and make the community vote about the direction KDE should take. Probably with OpenID login to make it easy to join. This only requires the developers to code what the users want, instead of what the coders want to code. |
| Ridcully Dec 23, 2010 4:08 AM EDT |
No problems Hkwint.......misread your concept. Cancel my above.....go for it. Trouble is, I am biased. :-) |
| dinotrac Dec 23, 2010 7:29 AM EDT |
Hans -- Great idea -- for another group of developers. WRT KDE4, the first requirement for such a thing to work appears to be missing: developers who actually care about the people who use their software, or, in the case of KDE, might use their software if it were reasonable to use. |
| jacog Dec 23, 2010 8:11 AM EDT |
The KDE bug/feature tracking system does have voting, and things that get voted up actually do get worked on. |
| tracyanne Dec 23, 2010 8:57 AM EDT |
Quoting:things that get voted up actually do get worked on. yeah but who does the voting? |
| hkwint Dec 23, 2010 9:02 AM EDT |
People who actually try to participate in the community instead of just whining err I mean complaining in LXer forums? Wild guess... Which shows there's something wrong somehow, KDE should make it easy to complain on the projects own website. IMO not only bugs should have voting, but also new developments. |
| tuxchick Dec 23, 2010 11:29 AM EDT |
Um...getting the KDE4 devs to listen to their users is not a technical problem. |
| hkwint Dec 23, 2010 12:36 PM EDT |
Indeed, coming to think about it, I found myself asking if 'happy users' is the most important goal for the developers at all? For example, OpenBSD is known not to care about its users; their developers are scratching their own itch and if somebody else can use it as well, then that somebody else could consider themselves lucky because that was never the point of OpenBSD. Maybe KDE developers are only scratching their own itches? Maybe they don't want to be a user-centric project? I don't know. I think 'deciding for who they're making next versions of KDE' is the most important thing to be done, and the result of that discussion the most important thing to communicate. |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 23, 2010 2:32 PM EDT |
Re: OpenBSD. Even though much if not most of the community is using it for firewalling, traffic shaping and other networking-type chores, enough do use it as a desktop and want things to work that the packages are generally of high quality. I'm running a GNOME desktop on one OpenBSD laptop, and it works great (same is true for FreeBSD). I haven't tried Minitube in OpenBSD yet (I haven't upgraded to 4.8 ... ), but that's an example of somebody scratching an itch that a lot of others happen to have as well. I don't know if Trinity is coming to any of the BSDs, but I'm sure a lot of users would welcome it. |
| tracyanne Dec 23, 2010 5:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:People who actually try to participate in the community instead of just whining err I mean complaining in LXer forums? Quoting:Which shows there's something wrong somehow, KDE should make it easy to complain on the projects own website. I did try complaining with specifics on the KDE website forums. most I got shouted at by KDE Devs. I even had an email exchange with Aaron whatshisname. He wasn't interested in listening. Kept telling me how wonderful all the new stuff is, ignored anything I said about the missing functionality, promised it would get back in there eventually. It still hasn't. (I just finished taking a look at Trinity on the KUbuntu liveCD, and there was all the functionality I miss, I hope Trinity gets much higher exposure) I stopped bothering a long time ago. I suspect a lot of other people have as well. I voted with my feet. |
| tracyanne Dec 23, 2010 5:26 PM EDT |
I remember when first read about KDE4, and read all these wonderful ideas that were being put forward, I imagined an even better KDE3.5.x with a 4.x.x numbering scheme. I remember being very very excited at the prospect. What we got was KDE4. So now I'm a GNOME user. |
| jdixon Dec 23, 2010 6:10 PM EDT |
> Maybe KDE developers are only scratching their own itches? Definitely. > Maybe they don't want to be a user-centric project? I'd say it's more a case of they don't care one way or the other. They think they know better than the users, and if the users disagree with them they're either wrong or ignorant. If some users like what they're doing, great. If they don't, they'll surely come around eventually. And if KDE4 were the only game in town, they might even be right. But it's not. And it's easier to switch to another desktop than argue with someone who won't listen to you and/or thinks your an idiot. For all I know, KDE4 might be the greatest thing since sliced bread. But I'm never going to find out, as I have no desire to deal with or support developers who feel that way about their (once loyal) users. |
| Ridcully Dec 23, 2010 6:48 PM EDT |
My experience (brief) with the KDE4 developers and their enthusiasts was similar to Tracyanne's and Jdixon's. I informed them of my problems and dislikes with KDE4 and was ridiculed, it was implied that I was a "stick in the mud" and finally that I could not see beauty and fantastic advantages of what they were doing. And that seems to be (from what I have read) a common experience. It's black and white: you are either right in there and helping with the backslapping and hand waving enthusiasm for KDE4, or you are against them. And the best way to really get them offside is to tell them that they trashed some of the best aspects of KDE3.5........It's a red rag to a bull. Frankly, until they have a product with almost no users, I personally don't think that they will care. My perception is that they have achieved what was always their primary goal: developer satisfaction. |
| Scott_Ruecker Dec 23, 2010 7:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:What we got was KDE4. Same here Tracyanne..same here..:-( |
| tuxchick Dec 23, 2010 8:18 PM EDT |
IMO calling KDE4 KDE is not accurate. It is so different, such a divergence, that there isn't any real relationship to KDE3. |
| gus3 Dec 23, 2010 8:20 PM EDT |
"KDE--"? |
| tuxchick Dec 23, 2010 8:30 PM EDT |
Criticism without being helpful is kind of low class, so I shall offer an alternative name for KDE4: 1959 Cadillac. Because it's gaudy, loaded with flashy non-functional frills, and can barely get out of its own way. Biggest fins ever! |
| Ridcully Dec 23, 2010 8:47 PM EDT |
Wow !!! Tuxchick, I thought that "I" was being critical and cynical about the bloatware that is now KDE4, but I "dips me lid" in the presence of a master of the art. Your car analogy is superb. LOL. And I agree very much with you......it no longer deserves to be called KDE. When a situation like this develops, look for the fork ~ and indeed, it has already emerged. |
| devnet Dec 23, 2010 10:08 PM EDT |
Here's my experience guys... Instead of just telling them it was wrong and how jacked up everything was...I submitted patches, worked on widgets, fixed problems, documented and all together chipped in to HELP solve as many problems as I could. Once people saw that I was not just test driving the desktop and that I was invested into seeing the problem solved from start to finish, they started listening to me. You don't understand how many people just come in and say "KDE4 SUCKS BIZALLS!!! KDE3 Rulez!!" and then they leave. The dumbest part is that a majority of the problems are only perceived ones...people just don't know how to do the thing they want to do in KDE4 because it changed from KDE3. Instead of spending time with the desktop, they turn tail and run. That, to me, is a huge disservice...because they go on and talk trash about KDE4...which really is a GREAT leap forward and is a GREAT desktop that I use daily. I think to myself, wow, all these people are saying that the desktop I choose to do all my work daily is full of suck...I wonder what that makes them think I am? Then I realize that it's mostly people who have no vested interest in seeing KDE4 succeed...they're just embittered because things were changed around and how to accomplish those things wasn't blatantly obvious when KDE4 was released. Sure KDE4 was incomplete when released...but I anticipate Gnome 3 will be as well...bug will be there a plenty. I just really despise how everyone gangs up on KDE4 devs...they've put a lot of time and effort into this as have I and I really wish people would get off their high horse, brush the chip off their shoulder, drop the whine and cheese, sack up and pitch in. Lastly, I'm running KDE 4.5.3 and it's easily the best iteration of the desktop I've seen. If you haven't tried it out, you should. Leave your preconceived notions at the front door though and give it a Gods honest try. I have a feeling you'll be pleasantly surprised at how it is. As I posted in July 2009 http://linux-blog.org/hate-kde4-ignorance-is-probably-the-cu... Just like that article topic then, I believe that even today, ignorance is the culprit. |
| tracyanne Dec 23, 2010 10:32 PM EDT |
@Devnet, I'm not a C or C++ programmer. I can't submit patches, I can't submit useful code. I can only tell them where I think they got it wrong. Good for you. Whatever, it has still not made a KDE4 that I find in the least useful. While Trinity even as it is looks very useful. |
| tuxchick Dec 23, 2010 10:34 PM EDT |
In other words devnet, only developers matter and everyone else can go hang. Users have every right to not have to be developers, and to hold developers accountable for design and feature decisions. Your argument is the same one we've been hearing from the beginning-- users who don't like KDE4 are wrong and missing the point and sadly unappreciative of its greatness. Bollocks. Devs who don't care about user feedback are only doing self-gratification. KDE4 has its fans; good for them. The KDE4 team threw away KDE3 without a backwards look, without a second thought, and with no consideration for the many (tens of thousands? more?) users who loved it and had come to depend on it. That is irresponsible, if not arrogant. Every release of KDE4 is supposed to be the one that will win back those unhappy former users, if only they would try it! Holy jumping jeebus, why do you think we're still complaining about it? Because we keep trying it. The KDE4 dev team have their own vision and goals, and what users might want simply isn't important. And yet they say they want people to use it.... |
| tracyanne Dec 23, 2010 10:39 PM EDT |
Yes indeed they have not learned a dmaned thing. Devnets response to this thread is exactly the same as I encountered several years ago. +1 TuxChick, why else would we keep on complaining, Those that don't bother trying KDE4 don't complain. DID YOU HEAR THAT? Devnet |
| tuxchick Dec 23, 2010 10:40 PM EDT |
BTW, PCLinuxOS is the best KDE4 distro in my sometimes-humble opinion, and Debian Unstable gives you as close to plain-vanilla unmodified KDE as you can get without building from sources. I recommend that the KDE4-curious try those. |
| dinotrac Dec 23, 2010 11:02 PM EDT |
@jdixon : Your conclusion is right on the money. Should the KDE4 manage to develop the most wonderful desktop ever imagined, I will miss out on all of its wonderfulness. Cool software is one thing. Depending on a bunch of jackass developers is something I can't afford. |
| jdixon Dec 23, 2010 11:16 PM EDT |
> Instead of just telling them it was wrong and how jacked up everything was...I submitted patches, worked on widgets, fixed problems,Instead of just telling them it was wrong and how jacked up everything was...I submitted patches, worked on widgets, fixed problems, You're a programmer, devnet. I'm not. However, you may be misunderstanding my position. I'm not a KDE4 user. I'm still using Slackware 12.2, so I don't even have KDE4 installed. My position is entirely based on the public interactions between those having complaints about how KDE4 works and the developers. I've read the developers responses to the criticisms of KDE4, and I want nothing to do with people that treat their users that way. > ...people just don't know how to do the thing they want to do in KDE4 because it changed from KDE3 Changed without rhyme or reason, and not documented. And this is supposed to be the user's problem/fault? |
| Ridcully Dec 24, 2010 12:19 AM EDT |
@Devnet
And here is my contribution as well, Devnet. I actually did the right thing as far as you are concerned and forced KDE4.4 to behave as closely as possible to a KDE3.5 version: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/144900/ The above is Part 2 of the two part article and it comes to a summary that is quite negative towards KDE4.4, although I have managed to get KDE4.4 running reasonably smoothly on the whole. I am not a developer and I personally consider KDE4 was and is a software framework built for developer satisfaction. I cannot submit patches or code and the few times I have suggested things are wrong with KDE4 have resulted in derision and put downs from the KDE4 fanatics. I also support the points made by those who have replied to your statements and add the fact that the KDE4 team disobeyed the most vital rule of development and education: proceed from the known to unknown. KDE4 removed the basic structures of KDE3.5 so that KDE3.5 users had almost no recognised ground on which to stand......especially in the administrative areas and in the Dolphin file manager. KDE4 has some "wonderful" attributes: overcomplexity, poor file management facilities (it's called Dolphin and it is so bad that I use alternatives such as Picasa to get concepts of file location), excessive manipulation to carry out tasks, hidden administration procedures, a plethora of "views", perceived slowness and software bloat.......and so it goes. I have enormous hopes that the Trinity project will become all that KDE4 should have become. Small update: I have every reason to believe that the more or less stable situation I am experiencing in KDE4.4 is because I have turned off every part of the bells/whistles/glitz in KDE4.4 and reduced the DE to its minimum while running the folder view. Glitz is not needed in a productive DE and I find it totally useless - but that's my perspective......Also, if you want a really stupid device, take a look at that ridiculous "cashew" that appears to do nothing that the rest of the DE already does....... Hypercomplexity, thy name is KDE4. |
| tracyanne Dec 24, 2010 1:49 AM EDT |
@devenet, I just read your it's you stupid lazy ignorant users who are at fault blog post at:Quoting:As I posted in July 2009 [HYPERLINK@linux-blog.org] And after all that those ignorant lazy users still tell you KDE4 sucks: for example Quoting:Gergo says: November 17, 2009 at 3:33 pm Oh dear I guess he's not using the KDE 4 that actually works right, which one was that again? According to you that was Quoting:It IS feature complete (in my opinion) with the 4.2 and 4.3 versions. |
| jacog Dec 24, 2010 3:23 AM EDT |
Quoting:yeah but who does the voting? Non-apathetic users who take an interest in being involved in the future of the project. I have voted on two features so far, both of which got implemented. |
| jacog Dec 24, 2010 3:30 AM EDT |
Also, it's a well-researched and documented fact that users can't really tell you what they want. KDE's fault might not be that it does not listen to its users - because really they shouldn't. Their fault would be that they did/do not do enough controlled and observed user testing. http://uxmyths.com/post/746610684/myth-21-people-can-tell-yo... |
| jacog Dec 24, 2010 3:59 AM EDT |
Quoting:I can only tell them where I think they got it wrong.Are you doing it in an obnoxious manner on a forums and blog posts that are barely even seen by KDE dev team. or in a constructive way using the actual system that they have in place for discussing improvements? I'm guessing neither, because you are not a KDE user any more, and you have no incentive to get involved in the development process anyway. EDIT: removed duplicate url from my obnoxious triple post :D |
| hkwint Dec 24, 2010 4:22 AM EDT |
TA / Ridcully: I'm sorry for assuming you didn't try to communicate with the KDE-team themselves. The idea coined above about some sort of 'community voting' website of course assumes the problem is in KDE-devs not actually knowing what their users want. I thought that was the reason for organizing K16 in first place. I saw some of the KDE people in real life (Jos and think Sebas and maybe Aaron to) and I they appeared like reasonable people to me, Like tuxchick said, developers not listening to their users is not a technical problem, On the other hand, I find it also a bit funny Microsoft is blamed (by some Linux users) for always empathizing on backwards compability too much, and being afraid to make choices which might alienate some 'rusted Win98-users'. Clearly, the KDE team did make some choices. I thought about finding someone from the KDE marketing team and asking them for an interview, so the can comment on the perceived lack of interest in their users. |
| Ridcully Dec 24, 2010 4:52 AM EDT |
Hey Hkwint.......NO worries......My skin is slightly thicker than that, and I hadn't even realised your assumption. I think you and Tuxchick have hit the nail on the head as far as I am concerned......"listening to the users is not a technical problem" and one very quickly decides it just isn't worth it to keep on saying things when "put downs" are all you get. Okay......in the hopes that the Aaron team is actually watching this thread and will truly listen to a suggestion, I'll select just one item, file management and Dolphin. Konqueror in KDE3.5 was a delight to use, Dolphin in KDE4 (as far as I am concerned) definitely isn't. The KDE4 team would really make me happy if Dolphin could do precisely what Konqueror did in KDE3.5. I would love the default Dolphin to be a two view window with a tree down the left hand side and icons or a tree down the right hand side and I'd also love it to be able to remember my settings. Please get rid of the "dumbed down" panel that currently exists on the left hand side; if you use a two view window and a tree down the left hand window, you don't need the panel at all. Now there is one serious, constructive improvement I would be delighted to see in KDE4. I can think of lots more, but that is a start. |
| tracyanne Dec 24, 2010 6:11 AM EDT |
@jacogQuoting:Are you doing it in an obnoxious manner on a forums and blog posts that are barely even seen by KDE dev team. or in a constructive way using the actual system that they have in place for discussing improvements? Just to clarify. AS I said above, I did try at one time on the KDE Forums - That's the ones on the official KDE website. I got the same sort of arrogant responses as the quote that started this thread, and which devenet made. I'm not a c or C++ programmer. I mostly program in Microsoft based languages, none of which include C or C++, and recently PHP. I also had a fairly short email conversation with Arron whatshisname (I forget now), wher he showed no interest in hearing why I thought they had taken the wrong path. I was genuinely excited by the prospect of KDE4, I wanted to contribute something to it, my reason, originally , for being on the KDE forums. My expectation was that the incredible KDE3.5.x was about to be taken to new heights. The whole plasma thing, the semantic desktop, the ability to further customise one's desktop were very exciting prospects. Unfortunately what we got was the dumping of everything that made KDE the incredible desktop it was, and most of those things are still missing, or so hidden I can't find them when I try. Dolphin is a mere shadow of what Konqueror was , and Konqueror in KDE4 is gutted and a mere shadow of Dolphin. I moved to GNOME, I try KDE4 as I try out lots of different desktops and distributions, but no I'm no longer interested in contributing anything to KDE4.. the scars are still too fresh, the disappointment still too new, and when I test a newer version of KDE4 only a little attenuated. Every now and again I contribute comments when someone starts a KDE4 thread, they continue to be negative. Occassionally I read comments such as thos that I started this thread with, that confirms to me that the KDE4 devs are as arrogant as they once were, and devenet confirmed it again in this thread. KDE4 is, in my opinion, a case of throwing out the baby with the bathwater. So many lost opportunities. |
| hkwint Dec 24, 2010 6:24 AM EDT |
Ridcully: http://www.krusader.org/screenshotsfs.php?limit=3&next=21 Whenever I do 'graphical' file management, I use MC, Krusader and on Windows I prefer Total Commander (was called Windows Commander before it was forbidden by ms) I'm not sure what people were doing with Konq in KDE3, but I think lots of it can be done with Krusader. |
| dinotrac Dec 24, 2010 8:40 AM EDT |
>"listening to the users is not a technical problem" AAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! Has everybody here gone stupid? Not listening to users IS a technical problem, just as software without decent documentation might as well not exist. Real honest-to-God technical types, including all ( I repeat, all) good developers work to achieve a purpose. An uncomfortable Mercedes is a failure, no matter how many miles per gallon its gee-whiz engine gets at 100 mph. Likewise, a gas-guzzling Prius is a failure, no matter how plush the ride. Developers who ignore the intended audience are incompetent developers no matter how slickly they can code or how quickly they can recite design patterns. KDE developers may not be incompetents. I have no way to know that. However, if they are competent, the intended user base must be a small one. |
| bigg Dec 24, 2010 9:40 AM EDT |
I've never seen anyone, anywhere, illustrate a point others were making better than devnet did. |
| jdixon Dec 24, 2010 3:44 PM EDT |
> I find it also a bit funny Microsoft is blamed (by some Linux users) for always empathizing on backwards compability too much The only backwards compatibility I've ever complained about with Windows (where it exists, which isn't as much as Microsoft claims) is wrt viruses. > I got the same sort of arrogant responses as the quote that started this thread... And please keep in mind that this is an Aussie who's talking here. For an Aussie to consider your response arrogant, you really have to try. This amply demonstrated arrogance with users who were loyal KDE enthusiasts is what turned me off KDE4. I don't care if it works well or not. I have no interest in supporting a group of developers who are arrogant enough to alienate a group of devout users this way. Whether the KDE dev team likes it or not, the KDE4 project will go down in history as an example of how not to do software development. If they actually wanted to develop a completely a new desktop environment which was incompatible with KDE3, they really should have called it something else. There's plenty of room out there for new projects. But no, they wanted the prestige of working on KDE, without accepting the accompanying responsibility to existing users. |
| tracyanne Dec 24, 2010 5:55 PM EDT |
Quoting:BTW, PCLinuxOS is the best KDE4 distro in my sometimes-humble opinion, and Debian Unstable gives you as close to plain-vanilla unmodified KDE as you can get without building from sources. I recommend that the KDE4-curious try those. I've just been looking at PCLinuxOS 2010.12, and I have to say much of the functionality I loved about KDE3.5.x seems to be returning, as is the easy perform configuration. Idon't know if this is just devnet, who for all his arrogance does seem to build a really nice distribution, or if KDE4 is finally beginning to build the baby back into the system. I still hate the way the icons in left hand panel on Dolphin expand to fill the space when you expand the left hand panel. You can remove that silly right hand panel, and you can select multiple detail panels. The terminal opens in a separate window, and not as a panel in dolphin. Still have no idea what the columns option is supposed to achieve, and my favourite view of the filesystem is still missing. I'm going to have to install it to see what else I can and can't do. |
| tracyanne Dec 24, 2010 7:36 PM EDT |
Configuration settings are all over the place. I can't find a way to make the taskbar go full screen width, nor can I find a way to make it auto hide. Multiple previews work, and beautifully, I don't need to install a separate application, like the DockBarX applet to get multiple previews. I can't get the desktop grid to work, but that may be my setup, I'm running in a Virtual machine, and neither the hot keys nor the mouse positions work. Activities actually make sense and are actually configurable, but they are definitely not what I perceived them to be. I can't create separate Virtual Desktop layouts, and, in fact the Virtual Desktops are not like the old KDE3 desktops where I could at least give them different backgrounds to differentiate them for different tasks. more later |
| dinotrac Dec 24, 2010 7:53 PM EDT |
@jdixon: You got that right. They wanted a short-cut to prestige, kudos without dues. |
| Ridcully Dec 24, 2010 8:29 PM EDT |
@jdixon.......Like Dinotrac, allow me to "second or third" your comments - spot on as far as I am concerned. What continues to interest me is that the KDE4 team has been allowed to do what they have done with apparently absolute immunity from retribution. And despite the continuing dismay from a wide spectrum of users, the team continues to increase the complexity of the software while simultaneously trashing and dumbing down its administrative controls. What we now have is a piece of software that is KDE because the logo says so. Who supports the KDE development team ? Who tells them what they should or should not do ? Or is it simply that they are displaying their own version of Microsoft's overall embracing and arrogant stance of: "We know what is best for you mere mortals ~ you'll take what we give you and like it !!" At this stage, I think there are two options: 1. Vote with your keyboards and move to another DE: Gnome, Xfce, Trinity (as it matures) etc., or 2. Try using the heavily restricted version of KDE4 in the manner I described in my two part article which forces KDE4 to mimic KDE3.5 reasonably closely and simultaneously continue to hammer the KDE4 team to get some rationality and simplicity back into what was a superb DE. It is very difficult for the developers to defend their points of view if you are actually using their software to demonstrate in production conditions the problems that they have created. As a fellow Australian, I confess option 2 would be the most satisfying if the KDE4 team actually listened to any of the comments, but on that I have my sincere doubts. Continual bleeding of the user base from option 1 is far more likely to eventually get the message home. I note Devnet has not replied to any of the comments. |
| jdixon Dec 24, 2010 9:55 PM EDT |
> ...is that the KDE4 team has been allowed to do what they have done with apparently absolute immunity from retribution. I suspect a number of former KDE users have chosen your option 1. > They wanted a short-cut to prestige, kudos without dues. To be fair, Dino, you were the first one I saw who made that point. |
| Scott_Ruecker Dec 24, 2010 10:09 PM EDT |
I would like to chime in for a moment here.. Devnet made some great points, he did do what would/should lead to making KDE4 better by submitting patches and becoming a part of the process by which positive results can be realized. That said, and for those of us who are not developers (including me) what he did is not something everyone can do. I plain and simply cannot do what he did because I do not have the skills too..yet. I commend you devnet for your hard work and everyone else who has worked very hard to contribute to KDE before and after the switch to KDE4. I am just a 'lowly' user, I know it, and I try not to pretend to know more than I do. But for the powers that be with KDE to choose to not listen to what a multitude of users have said over and over again (even if the devs do not feel like hearing it) regarding KDE4's usability is asinine to me. For them to just dump KDE 3.5 and leave it for dead when thousands of users all over the world were still very happy to continue using it seems extremely short sighted to me. Lastly, I would like for everyone involved in this conversation to be nice to each other..please? Whether we all agree on the particulars of the why's and what's they like or do not like I think we can all agree that the developers at KDE could have handled this a lot better, period. |
| tuxchick Dec 24, 2010 10:55 PM EDT |
Quoting: >"listening to the users is not a technical problem" It's not a technical problem in the sense that technology, such as a nice web site, or nice bug reports, or patches, or whatever can fix it. I'm looking at KDE 4.4.5 right now and it's the same old waste of time. Some examples: - Can't move panel items, like the desktop pager. It is jammed on the far left and there is no way to put it somewhere else. When I right-click on an icon for an open app, such as Kmail, there is a 'move' option. But it doesn't move the icon-- it MOVES KMAIL. Now WHY?? I can move Kmail by dragging its title bar, just like any app! This is useless and redundant. - Can't put application launchers in the panel, like Kmail and Firefox. You can add a whole entire system menu launcher, or a Quicklauncher full of microscopically tiny icons that you have limited control over in the systray. Why would you want another system menu launcher? And again it can't be moved. - 'Recent documents' records the URLs of every Web page I visit. *headpound* - No 'list all open apps on all desktops' button - No run-command launcher that sits in the panel so I can quickly type in a command - It's still a disorganzed mishmash for configuring anything. Bringing some sanity to configuration would have been a big step up from KDE3 - Dolphin is much improved, but still far short of the old Konqueror as a file manager No dialup Internet tool (the Network Settings widget doesn't even show my NIC), no way to configure startup services, no graphical block device manager to control what mounts at startup, no graphical udev manager which IMO is the most necessary widget of all. But hundreds of options for controlling the appearance. And on and on...the available right-click options are mostly not useful to me. I love right-click because it is fast and efficient, so this makes me sad. I'm sorry Devnet, I don't want to sound like I'm whinging at you-- my gripes are against KDE4 and this weird insistence from KDE4 devs and fans that we who hate it would really learn to love it if we only tried harder. That's not going to happen in its current form. |
| tuxchick Dec 24, 2010 10:58 PM EDT |
One more, and this is a biggie-- disappearing toolbar icons. When there is more than one row of icons in a toolbar, the extras do not wrap around and automatically appear in a second row. Instead there is this little arrow that is supposed to expose them. Which it does, briefly-- and then they disappear. IMO the new KDE is all about looks, with very little effort being put into efficiency and usability. |
| dinotrac Dec 24, 2010 11:14 PM EDT |
TC - I understand what you're saying, but I think it's wrong consider any developer as competent who ignores the intended user base. It is, in a larger sense, a serious technical problem because technology doesn't exist in a vacuum. You want to pursue theoretical pursuits without regard for real-world impact? Great. Go into research. Have a blast. Don't be a software developer. You don't have the skills. |
| tracyanne Dec 24, 2010 11:57 PM EDT |
There's something called "different widgets on each desktop" if you set it, the wallpaper displays on only 1 of the desktops, the other desktops get a default background (wallpaper) that is black. there seems no way to select other wallpapers for the other desktops. In KDE3.5.x you could select different wallpapers/background colours for each desktop, all at the same place, there must be some configuration form somewhere but I can't find it. As I said Activities seems to be something quite different from what I believed it to be, from the original description. It's certainly not very useful, as far as I'm concerned. So whatever this "different widgets on each desktop" thing is it's not Activities. Then there's another thing under workspaces called "show an independent widget set", an no idea what that is either. Or what the difference is between Activities, Workspaces and Virtual Desktops, come to that. |
| tracyanne Dec 25, 2010 12:24 AM EDT |
At last I've worked out how to reconfigure the panel to go full screen width. When you right mouse click on the panel there are 2 options "smooth Task Settings" and "Unlock Widgets", I've been avoiding "Unlock Widgets", because I didn'r want to unlock the widgets, which I assume(d) are the objects on the panel. But when you slect it, a whole bunch of hidden functionality is suddenly revealed, including a menu option called "Panel Options" with leads to a menu Option called "Panel Settings" which leads to a Menu called "More Settings", and finally on that menu there is an option for "Maximise Panel" (which sets the panel to max screen width), amd another for 'Auto Hide". That's just plain cumbersome. |
| ComputerBob Dec 25, 2010 12:31 AM EDT |
Quoting:...That's just plain cumbersome.In KDE4-speak, it's "intuitive." |
| tracyanne Dec 25, 2010 1:01 AM EDT |
Everytime I click on the "Desktop Search" in System Settings I get a message saying that Nepomuk Server is not running, but the current settings will be used next time it's started, but restarting the machine doesn't start Nepomuk, and I can't find anywhere to start it, or stop it for that matter. The more I dig into the KDE4 configuration on PCLinuxOS 2010.12, the more confused I get. It'd Byzantine. I have never had this much trouble making sense of any other Desktop. Not Windows 7, or Vista, or any of the Server Versions. They make sense, and prior knowledge actually helps. I had far less trouble moving from Windows XP to KDE3 and from KDE3 to GNOME or LXDE or XFCE or Enlightenment. Each of them were accessible from prior knowledge of other desktops. KDE4 just confuses. One thing it is not is the KDE3.5.x with extra functionality. Me being me I'll no doubt poke around with it some more, and maybe I'll get past some of the road blocks I've encountered. In the mean time I'm feeling just a little frustrated, and trying to keep an open mind is becoming exhausting. |
| Ridcully Dec 25, 2010 2:01 AM EDT |
For Tracyanne.........Nepomuk...........This is a little stinker and is a classic in just how convoluted the KDE4 Personal Settings Manager has become. Here is how you do it (and I had to go back and check) when running on openSUSE 11.3 1. Open Personal Settings Menu 2. Select the Advanced Tab 3. On the top line, select Desktop Search 4. In the displayed menu, select the appropriate box for Nepomuk 5. Select Apply 6. If the fool thing STILL (and it also does for me) tells you that things have changed and you need to apply them, accept that as well and that should be that. 7. If you open up the thing again, the Nepomuk box should be ticked and even if you have touched nothing, you will still be told that things have changed (yep, as good as classic Microsoft procedures) and you must still apply them. 8. Restart KDE4 and Nepomuk will be running...... Okay......that's how I did it........and it's working fine for me. Hope that helps. |
| jacog Dec 25, 2010 4:38 AM EDT |
Quoting:- Can't move panel items, like the desktop pager. It is jammed on the far left and there is no way to put it somewhere else. When I right-click on an icon for an open app, such as Kmail, there is a 'move' option. But it doesn't move the icon-- it MOVES KMAIL. Now WHY?? I can move Kmail by dragging its title bar, just like any app! This is useless and redundant. The context menu on the task bar reflects the context menu of the respective window title bars. This is not some new usability convention that KDE invented. As for moving items. Click the cashew on the right of the panel, this switches the panel bar into configuration mode. Now you can drag-move items around at will. When you are done, lock it again by clicking the cashew. Quoting:- Can't put application launchers in the panel, like Kmail and Firefox. You can add a whole entire system menu launcher, or a Quicklauncher full of microscopically tiny icons that you have limited control over in the systray. Why would you want another system menu launcher? And again it can't be moved. In the K menu, right click on the item you want to add and select "Add to panel". It goes there instantly. And again, see the previous comment about moving items. So far none of the above two things are convoluted or difficult. in fact, it's quite simple. Quoting:- 'Recent documents' records the URLs of every Web page I visit. *headpound* You are bashing the feature without seeing its usefulness. A better complaint would be the lack of a sorting/separating/filtering mechanism of some sort. Complain better! :) Quoting:- No 'list all open apps on all desktops' button I confoos. You mean on the task manager? If I right click on that and select "Task Manager Settings", I see filtering options right there. :/ Maybe I am misreading this. Quoting:- No run-command launcher that sits in the panel so I can quickly type in a command Agreed. it'd be great if krunner were able to live in the panel rather than having to press Alt-F2, or whatever. Then again, I'm pretty sure there is a widget for that. If there isn't, there should be. Quoting:- It's still a disorganzed mishmash for configuring anything. Bringing some sanity to configuration would have been a big step up from KDE3Anything? There are loads of dialogs I'd relocate since it doesn't always make sense how one actually gets to them, but the individual components themselves are perfectly fine. |
| tracyanne Dec 25, 2010 5:03 AM EDT |
@jocog, what are you quoting? |
| Ridcully Dec 25, 2010 5:13 AM EDT |
For Jacog.......and while I appreciate and thank you for what you are trying to do, in your first item you have illustrated immediately and perfectly the complexity of problems with KDE4.Quoting:As for moving items. Click the cashew on the right of the panel, this switches the panel bar into configuration mode. Now you can drag-move items around at will. When you are done, lock it again by clicking the cashew. Right now in KDE4.4 as I have it running, there is NO cashew at the right of the panel. And of course, the reason for that is ? .... Ah yes, I have first to unlock widgets by clicking on the cashew at the top right of the window, and selecting that option from the drop down menu that appears. Normally, a user runs with the desktop "widget locked". Now certainly, this may be a small thing to you, but when I first met it, I tore my hair out as I tried to understand what on earth was going on. Moreover, when the widgets are unlocked using the top right hand corner cashew, the tiny cashew that then appears at the extreme right hand end of the bottom panel is greyed out and very, very readily overlooked. It activates when the cursor is placed on it and a user would normally see the "grey status" and ignore it. And while we are on the subject of "clicks", do remember that there is no way, as far as I am aware, to slide the panel off the bottom of the window with a single click......you need 5-6 "clicks" in KDE4 to get to a situation that approximates the KDE3.5 solution. Also, if you personally know how to get a different background on each of the (normally four) virtual desktops I run (as Tracyanne has also noted) I'd love to know now KDE4 manages it. In KDE3.5, it's a piece of cake and you know which desktop is open purely on the base of the different desktop images. So, how do you do that in KDE4, because I still cannot find out how to do it ? Update: And an extra question: Why DO you need the two cashews ? For interest, I just tried out the procedure and as soon as widgets are unlocked using the master cashew in the top right hand corner, all the adjustments to the bottom panel are immediately available and as far as I can see, the bottom right hand corner cashew is un-necessary and irrelevant. Again complexity for complexity's sake ? Or am I being over cynical ? The point is that I am now using KDE4.4 in a restricted "KDE3.5 mode" as my routine desktop in order to try to understand what it does. Therefore the points I make are not hypothetical in any way ~ they are simply what I find as I use the software. |
| tracyanne Dec 25, 2010 6:18 AM EDT |
@Ridcully, I don't have a Personal Setting menu, I'm using PCLinuxOS.However interestingly and to cause further confusion I have discovered Service Manager, it's under System Administration in the System Settings. According to Service Manager - Startup Services Nepomuk is running.Quoting:Moreover, when the widgets are unlocked using the top right hand corner cashew, the tiny cashew that then appears at the extreme right hand end of the bottom panel is greyed out and very, very readily overlooked. It activates when the cursor is placed on it and a user would normally see the "grey status" and ignore it. On PCLinuxOS 2010.12, there's a right mouse click option fon the bottom panel, other than that it's exactly the same. I never even noticed the cashew on the far right of the panel until it was pointed out in the above posts, and yes it's grey, so even if I had noticed it, I would have ignored it. Indeed as I noted earlier I had ignored the "Unlock Widgets" option both on the top right cashew, and on the right mouse context menu on the bottom panel. I could see no point in Unlocking the Widgets, I wanted them to stay locked, I had no use for them unlocked, as far as I was concerned they could stay right where they are. I only found out by accident, I clicked on the "Unlock Widgets" option by accident, that unlocking Widgets revealed the additional functionality and several layers of menu options that got me to where i was able to set some configuration settings that I had been searching for. |
| tracyanne Dec 25, 2010 6:22 AM EDT |
For the record PCLinuxOS 2010.12 is using KDE4.5.4. |
| Ridcully Dec 25, 2010 6:37 AM EDT |
@Tracyanne.........Okay......I'm using KDE4.4.4, but hopefully the difference will not be too excessive. I think however that openSUSE's version of KDE4 may differ in some ways from that in PCLInuxOS and this is now going to be another major bugbear with the DE as different distros try to smooth out the very obvious problems with KDE4. I'm sorry but I simply cannot help with Nepomuk - I got my system working by "monkey see monkey do" processes and I remain very irritated that Nepomuk is now in the whole shebang since it was utterly un-ncessary for KMail in KDE3.5. However, if you really want to experience a silly little incongruity of KDE4, use the Folder view which allows you to put both widgets and icon links on the desk. I like to use icon links on the desktop, it's just my personal preference and all of my icons are simply put there by dragging and dropping from the main menu. But there are other items which are actual "widgets"......for instance the Trash Can, and for some weird reason, the VLC icon which was dragged and dropped onto the screen. Now, when widgets are locked, those two icons are un-moveable, but all the remaining icons can be shifted at will.......But if you just look at the screen, there is no difference whatsoever between an icon or a widget. Curious. |
| tracyanne Dec 25, 2010 6:47 AM EDT |
Just to make things more frustrating, every now and again, for no reason I can determine, when I click on the top right cashew or the System Settings widget in the panel the desktop restarts, and I have to log in again and reopen applications and start again. |
| Ridcully Dec 25, 2010 7:03 AM EDT |
That sounds like major instability to me and is something I have not experienced with the version I am running on openSUSE...... I'm now using KDE4.4.4 on openSUSE 11.3 as my principle desktop; if you want to "know what the water feels like, you have to jump in" so to speak. I can say with complete honesty that my present system has been and continues to be remarkably stable - it just works. My biggest problem is that I am very limited in my knowledge of other distros because I have only used openSUSE for about 6-8 years and I deeply regret I wouldn't know where to start on PCLinuxOS or how close its version of KDE4.5 is to the one I am running. I do know that I can now live with KDE4.4 on openSUSE 11.3 as regards its stability and ease of use, given that I have stripped it down to the bare essentials. |
| tracyanne Dec 25, 2010 7:22 AM EDT |
PCLOS is or was derived from Mandriva. It is still very Mandrivaish although I think is pretty much fully developed independently of anything Mandriva do now. I'm currently using either Linux Mint or Ubuntu (both GNOME) depending on the machine, so they are quite different from PCLOS with KDE4. This install of PCLOS is just so I can test the latest and greatest version of KDE4. I think you can tell from my comments that as you get deeper into personalising it the more frustrating it becomes. If I had left it with devenets configuration it would probably work just fine, but that would mean I would have to modify how I prefer to interact with the desktop. However, with a couple of exceptions I can configure a GNOME desktop to something very close to what I had on KDE3.5.10 plus a few things I couldn't. In other words I can set up GNOME to suit my style, while I still haven't got close to doing that with KDE4. For me KDE4 is like using a Windows desktop, only less configurable. |
| hkwint Dec 25, 2010 7:24 AM EDT |
Dino: You're confusing marketing with technique. Most people can distinguish between them it seems, hence why some people are technicians and others are marketeers. Saying they're both the same (even while they're related) is absolute nonsense. When you have a marketing problem, you can't solve it with technique. Maybe you've heard about the term 'orthogonal', which means you can't describe boys in terms of just girls, you can't describe sinuses with only cosinuses, and in the same way marketing and technique are largely orthogonal. Technique on its own doesn't care if it has users or not, and thinking technique is only useful when it has users has proven nonsense time and time again in history. |
| Ridcully Dec 25, 2010 7:31 AM EDT |
@Tracyanne......I have a LXF installation disk of PCLinuxOS 2010.........I'll give it a whirl and see what I come up with on a test hdd. |
| dinotrac Dec 25, 2010 10:24 AM EDT |
Hans - I have no idea what you are talking about. I'm talking about technology, not marketing. Good technicians deliver good solutions to problems. The Saturn V was great technology for delivering an Apollo capsule to the moon. Had somebody delivered that technology for the morning commute downtown, they'd be lousy technicians. The quality of the KDE technicians depends largely on their goals. If they actually care about delivering a viable desktop environment suitable for ordinary (ie -- non coding) users, they are crappy technicians. They have failed to understand the problem space and failed to deliver good technology to address the need. If they want something for developers to play with, not so bad. Dishonest, but not so bad. |
| jdixon Dec 25, 2010 1:30 PM EDT |
> Click the cashew on the right of the panel, ...in fact, it's quite simple. Let me get this straight. Clicking on an item which has no obvious connection with anything else on the desktop, and whose function is completely non-ovbious from both its name and icon, is supposed to be simple? If its function is to lock things, why not make it a lock? Making it a cashew is, to put it simply, nuts. > You are bashing the feature without seeing its usefulness...Complain better! :) And this response it is typical of what you get from the KDE developers. How is the user supposed to know how to "complain better"? They're users, not developers. In most cases, not even technicians like me. These two simple examples are enough that I think any outsider looking in will see immediately why I don't want anything to do with KDE4. |
| tuxchick Dec 25, 2010 1:58 PM EDT |
Quoting: So far none of the above two things are convoluted or difficult. in fact, it's quite simple. Simple when you know how! I don't peck and whine, I searched all over trying to figure this guff out. Well now I know, thank you. Quoting: - 'Recent documents' records the URLs of every Web page I visit. *headpound* Aye mon Capitan! :) But it's still silly--I might visit several hundred web pages in a day, so it overwhelms the recent documents history. Such a 'feature' is pointless clutter, because browsers have their own histories. A recent document history is a time-saver for local docs; just click to open. Whatever 'use cases' (a favorite phrase of KDE4 devs) KDE4 is trying to solve are not my use cases. I am fine with KDE4 having its fans, they just need to quit with the futile efforts to make people like me like it. It's a big fat weird thing and it does not do what I want. I've been on a desktop/WM testing binge. The results so far: - XFCE is super-nice, a lot like KDE3 in basic functionality. Fast and efficient. - LXDE is pretty cool, a lot like XFCE - FVWM is very interesting; the default is fast and easy to figure out, and then it is endlessly customizable with good docs - Gnome is the reliable old fallback. Finally after all these years it is very nearly usable. |
| tuxchick Dec 25, 2010 2:28 PM EDT |
I will keep an open mind that KDE4 is like all revolutionary and far-seeing and someday, someway, will achieve its goals. The central concepts, as near as I can tell, are Semantic Stuff. This is what Nepomuk and Akonadi are all about. I've been reading up on these until my eyeballs bled and my brain went on strike and demanded a bowl of pork rinds and six episodes in a row of Dukes of Hazzard for purification and renewal. Because the people who think these things are cool and useful are very poor at explaining why they are cool and useful, or how they work, or how they will benefit we lowly end lusers.. "Networked Environment for Personalized, Ontology-based Management of Unified Knowledge NEPOMUK brings together researchers, industrial software developers, and representative industrial users, to develop a comprehensive solution for extending the personal desktop into a collaboration environment which supports both the personal information management and the sharing and exchange across social and organizational relations." No, really. That is English. "Akonadi - The PIM Storage Service Mission Statement We intend to design an extensible cross-desktop storage service for PIM data and meta data providing concurrent read, write, and query access. It will provide unique desktop wide object identification and retrieval." I have no idea why this requires a giant boggy infrastructure with truckloads of dependencies. There is no KDE alternative for users with simpler needs, like a plain old mail client with a simple plain-text contacts file. No wonder Google is eating FOSS' lunch with GMail, Google Docs, and Android. But as I said I am keeping an open mind. |
| dinotrac Dec 25, 2010 3:01 PM EDT |
@tuxchick: You sound just like all of those stick in the mud kernel developers who fought the idea of a micro-kernel back in the last millennium. Can you imagine where Linux would be now if Linus and all had been content to stick with the old-fashioned monolithic kernel? Can you imagine trying to compete with the HURD using such old and obsolete technology? |
| devnet Dec 25, 2010 5:27 PM EDT |
@tracyanne me either. I can create a patch for documentation though...it took me a few moments to figure out how to make a diff between docs that were wrong on an application and my corrections. Then I sent them in on a bug and notified the developer. I also donated some money to KDE...which ppl can do of course to help out. @tuxchick Did you have license to pry my mouth (ok, fingers/keyboard) open to stuff those words in? I didn't say KDE4 was for developers...I said that if you notice something wrong, buckle down and help fix it! Quoting:Those that don't bother trying KDE4 don't complain. I'm afraid those that DON'T try it complain much more. Those are the majority out there. Putting a Kubuntu CD in the tray isn't trying it either...they don't do a very good job on KDE4 imho. The problem is...everyone says they've tried the most recent version...and most haven't. I've been running the bleeding edge of things for months and have had 0 problems with it. Everything works. It's fast. It's responsive. It does everything I need. It makes me feel like I'm using an updated KDE 3.5.10. I hear people moan about it and I don't understand what they're talking about...I just haven't seen that from a Mandriva based KDE4. It makes me think that people have tried older versions of KDE4 and are just ignoring any progress and fixing that went into the most recent iterations. Quoting:Cool software is one thing. Depending on a bunch of jackass developers is something I can't afford. Thanks for calling me a jackass Dino! You're all heart! Honestly, the real reason KDE4 came into existence is because of the new version of Qt...not because developers wanted anyone to suffer. It's pretty much the same thing that is happening with Gnome right now moving to the Gnome shell. People don't like to talk about that though because it 'just isn't the same thing as KDE4'. Bottom line is...there is a fundamental shift in how Gnome will be used just like there was for KDE4...so it is comparable. KDE4 is NOT all full of jackass developers. Many of us want the desktop to succeed and continue to make changes to Amarok that makes it more usable. Changes to PIM so that applications can access semantic data that makes users better able to have cross application labeling/searching. The bottom line is...it is ignorant to say that all KDE developers are only concerned with themselves. I don't know who perpetuated this idea...but you might as well take everyone back to before 1965 in the USA with statements like that. @jdixon Quoting:You're a programmer, devnet. I'm not. I'm a technical writer not a programmer. My contributions are mostly from documentation and what little python fixes I can do with my limited background in coding. Even when I didn't have any idea what python was...I still helped out with KDE. I donated. I sent in patched documentation. I commented on developers blogs via planet. I hopped on IRC to chat with developers. [quote]One more, and this is a biggie-- disappearing toolbar icons. When there is more than one row of icons in a toolbar, the extras do not wrap around and automatically appear in a second row. Instead there is this little arrow that is supposed to expose them. Which it does, briefly-- and then they disappear. IMO the new KDE is all about looks, with very little effort being put into efficiency and usability.[quote] What distro did you try? I have NONE of these problems on my Mandriva based install. NONE. |
| devnet Dec 25, 2010 5:32 PM EDT |
Quoting:Konqueror in KDE3.5 was a delight to use, Dolphin in KDE4 (as far as I am concerned) definitely isn't. The KDE4 team would really make me happy if Dolphin could do precisely what Konqueror did in KDE3.5. I would love the default Dolphin to be a two view window with a tree down the left hand side and icons or a tree down the right hand side and I'd also love it to be able to remember my settings. Please get rid of the "dumbed down" panel that currently exists on the left hand side; if you use a two view window and a tree down the left hand window, you don't need the panel at all. Then switch it out for Konq. It's a single setting in the KDE Control Center. Go there >> Default Applications >> File Manager and select Konq. Hearing this from you leads me to believe that you didn't really give KDE4 a fair shot. |
| Ridcully Dec 25, 2010 6:01 PM EDT |
@Devnet.....I promised myself that I would be polite in this discussion, but when I read things like this:Quoting:Hearing this from you leads me to believe that you didn't really give KDE4 a fair shot. I do begin to feel a little annoyed. Let me put the ball straight back into your court because you obviously have NOT been reading what I have been saying in my posts above: I am using openSUSE 11.3 with KDE4.4.4 as my principal and only workplace, and have been doing so for the past two months. Now if that isn't a "fair shot" Devnet, I don't know what levels you place a "fair shot" at. All my work, emails, file managment, desktop work, articles, accounts, are being done on KDE4.4.4 and have been for that period. I am using KDE4.4.4 routinely "day in day out". Now please, do not even imply that I have not tried to use KDE4.4.4 . In fact, this response is coming to you right now from Firefox running on KDE4.4.4. As a retiree, I do not have the luxury of several computers with a different OS and DE on each and when I move to a new DE, I move carefully, slowly and with a great deal of caution......as I did this time too. Now, as regards Konqueror and Dolphin and your suggestion of the single setting in the KDE Control Centre, let me put it this way: Been there, done that !!!!!!! And what I got was not, repeat NOT what I had hoped for. The KDE4 team have also "mucked around" with Konqueror.......it is NOT the same software that was in KDE3.5, as I found it had been altered in its basic views and settings. I played around with it for an hour or so and gave up in disgust. You cannot get it to behave in even the most simple KDE3.5 ways of the two columns, tree permanently on one side and icons or tree on the other, and retain those settings.....Konqueror has now been put into an internet browser mode as its principal operation, not a file manager and it is now clumsy, dare I even say "gauche" ? Devnet, I'd be pleased to discuss things with you, but please, please read all my comments on this incredible thread before making statements that are, in my opinion, pretty mistaken. If you search LXer, you will find two longish articles published by me about 3-4 weeks ago on how a welded to KDE3.5 user moved to KDE4 and the problems I faced in doing so. I think that should give you the basis for any future discussions. http://lxer.com/module/newswire/lf/view/144200/ http://lxer.com/module/newswire/lf/view/144900/ |
| Ridcully Dec 25, 2010 6:14 PM EDT |
@Devnet........And one more "little" thing:Quoting:Honestly, the real reason KDE4 came into existence is because of the new version of Qt...not because developers wanted anyone to suffer. And this particular quote is the one over which I feel even more irritation on a long term basis because it flies in the face of what is now happening: The Trinity KDE3.5 project. All the KDE4 team had to do was what the Trinity team is doing right now, ensuring KDE3.5 is Qt compatible. Instead the KDE4 team chose to completely disregard the fundamental principles of software development and tear up the most widely used KDE version while simultaneously dropping in something that was totally different in its concepts and operation. And believe me, because I am a KDE3.5 user who has moved to KDE4, I know this statement to be true. There was no need in any way for the KDE4 team to choose the particular development route that they did. If Trinity can develop KDE3.5 without destroying its basic structure and is doing it right now, why couldn't the KDE4 team ? Some unilateral decisions were made by the KDE4 development team on the development path they would take and my personal perception is that they took a path that would gratify their own development satisfaction, not the needs of the users. Ask yourself one thing please: If KDE4 is so screamingly good, why is this thread in existence and why are its various contributors saying more or less the same negative things about KDE4 after so much time and after so much "apparent" improvement ? |
| jdixon Dec 25, 2010 6:36 PM EDT |
> ...everyone says they've tried the most recent version...and most haven't. Devnet, why did they release it as 4.0 if it wasn't ready? Yeah, I know, to attract more users. But what good does it do to attract users if you're going to ignore them and/or belittle their comments? We're now up to 4.4. The worst bugs should have been fixed long ago. But no, you still have to try "the most recent version". I finally have a new box set up running Slackware 13.1. So I now have KDE4 available to test. But of course, it's not the "most recent version", so why bother? In fact, given the public responses of the KDE developers to users, why bother at all? XFCE is perfectly usable. > it is ignorant to say that all KDE developers are only concerned with themselves. I don't see where anyone has said that. But if so, those who aren't are letting those who are dominate the discussion. The attitude I'm getting comes from the public statements of the KDE developers themselves. > It's a single setting in the KDE Control Center. Go there >> Default Applications >> File Manager and select Konq. And why isn't this information readily available in a faq? He posted a two part writeup of his attempts to make KDE4 work like KDE3 here on LXer. Obviously he didn't find that information anywhere. In fact, most of the people complaining are complaining because KDE4 changed KDE3 behavior without rhyme or reason. A simple faq explaining how to easily restore or duplicate the old KDE3 behavior would have resolved most of the problems. Other projects can do this. Why couldn't KDE4? It's probably too late at this point. The KDE 3.5 users have moved on, either to another desktop or to Trinity. I doubt there's anything the KDE4 team can do to get them back. > Hearing this from you leads me to believe that you didn't really give KDE4 a fair shot. Read his writeup and then try to say that with a straight face. You can find the first part at http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/144200/ Added: Ah, I see Ridcully has beaten me to pointing out his article. And explained that Konqueror doesn't work the way it used to, so changing to it doesn't work. |
| tracyanne Dec 25, 2010 6:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:me either. I can create a patch for documentation though...it took me a few moments to figure out how to make a diff between docs that were wrong on an application and my corrections. Then I sent them in on a bug and notified the developer. I also donated some money to KDE...which ppl can do of course to help out. Clearly you didn't bother reading my comments above, and merely skimmed them. But given your arrogant blog, also quoted in this thread, I'm not surprised. I stopped having interest in KDE4 for two reason, being rebuffed by the arrogance of KDE4 devs, including your Aarron whathisname Seigio who had no interest in listening. Iwas told the complete break and rewrite was necessary... Excrement of the Bull. I no longer use KDE4 and am no longer interested in helping it's development. I am happy to post my experiences in testing it from time to time. Maybe one day it will work. I notice you have not provided any answers to any of the questions/ issues/ blockages raised in my posts, or indeed Ridcullys. Once again and typically those issues are ignored. I suspect because you a KDE4 contributor don't know the answers but prefer to ignore them as a user. KDE4 doesn't solve or support any of my use cases. I can't personalise it to my satisfaction, there are too many roadblocks, it is simply too Byzantine. Too many of the things I managed to do were by accident, NOT because it seemed logical to go there. My attitude to KDE4 is a bit like my attitude to Microsoft. I don't send bug reports to Microsoft either, and I disable the automated bug reporting system. If Microsoft want my bug reports they can pay me. If any KDE4 developers wish to take the time to read what I post on non KDE4 forums like this, they can do whatever the hell they like with the information. I suspect they will ignore it, but I no longer care. |
| dinotrac Dec 25, 2010 7:19 PM EDT |
@devnet: 2+2 does not equal 5. I have called you nothing. However, I have seen enough from various KDE developers that I do not want to trust my day to day computing needs to them. My computer has to work, which means I need to trust the people who create the software I rely on. KDE used to be the most important piece of software on my computer. I trusted the software and I trusted the people who created and maintained it. That isn't true any more so I have moved on. |
| tuxchick Dec 25, 2010 7:59 PM EDT |
Quoting: Hearing this from you leads me to believe that you didn't really give KDE4 a fair shot... Um...yeah. What bigg said. |
| hkwint Dec 25, 2010 8:33 PM EDT |
Quoting:Hans - I have no idea what you are talking about. It clearly shows, but what the heck, our little discussion is moot because besides you and me nobody cares about the small issue of semantics so let's forget about it and concentrate at the topic at hand. From the update to the article: Quoting:Our long-term goals - create something so compelling it can overtake windows - should be the focus I'm not sure if overtaking Windows is a good goal when discussing the "roadmap to 2016". I think even in 2010 desktop Windows has been downgraded to 'ancient system of the nineties' and I'm not sure if overtaking something of the nineties is an ambitious goal for 2016. The 'tens' (or whatever 2010-2020 is called) are probably going to be 'hybrid' or whatever term PR coined, meaning software from many companies, associations / projects even on different architectures and with different type of GPU's, on different platforms and very different screens, mixing local and remote storage and 'on demand' with 'designed for peak computing'. I think those are the challenges for 'the tens', and there's no way Windows solves any of those challenges. What's needed is something which works across platforms, architectures and display sizes. One of todays problems is all the data spread among different "services", and almost no good way to exchange them between applications / platforms. There's data on Facebook, LinkedIn, GMail, GCalender (or whatever it's called), maybe MS Web-Office, there's local storage like OOo / KOffice etc., then there's stuff in databases like MySQL (I'm thinking of Akonadi), there may even be some paper documents and then there are maps (like Google Maps), some augmented reality coming and somewhere lost at the center is the user, juggling all those platforms and trying to make all these services / devices (desktop, laptop, tablet, mobile phone, camera, PND) talk to each other. In my opinion, the main thing lacking here is standards, not software. Also, the coming discussion will be more about who owns the data, and not who owns the license to the software. I mean, looking at a broader perspective, IMHO there's margin compression when it comes to (both) selling licenses of software (thanks to FOSS!) and hardware, so the best way to earn money is by selling data. There's a difference in viewpoint about who owns the data, and many people say citizens should own the data about them, and not companies like Google and Facebook. There should be a way for citizens to store and own their own data, and then choosing which data they want to make available to sites like LinkedIn, Facebook, Twitter and Google. I think that's the challenge for 2016. I read this somewhere before on a blog, and what's interesting to note, is Viviane Reding says the very same thing (better than I do) in an interview: http://voices.washingtonpost.com/posttech/2010/12/eu_privacy... from 1:50. I see a clash coming between Google and the EU. I'm not sure how all of this will pertain to KDE, but in my opinion, if they're aiming for being a 'better Windows', they're not dealing with the issues at hand. So if they really want to be ambitious, both Akonadi and Nepomuk have to be aimed at storing data about users on a local PC and then making it available to websites like LinkedIn and Facebook. I'm not sure how old-fashioned desktop OS'es like Windows and KDE / Gnome fit into this discussion. I think Google got the message with their ChromeOS, and so did Microsoft, even though their KIN was a large failure. So, when talking about what KDE should be in 2016, you might say: "Make it do everything KDE3.5 did", but that would ignore the issues about 'data-ownership' above. In my opinion, enhanced versions of Nepomuk and Akonadi may be needed to solve these issues. But more important, people should kick Google, Facebook et. all. to stop keeping hostaging our data and opening it. Back in 1991, most people didn't knew about Linux or FOSS, and most people didn't knew how it would change the world. Nowadays, open software is accepted and there are many fans. There are whole websites devoted to FOSS. I think today Facebook may be what Microsoft was in the 90's, and Diaspora might be what Linux was in the 90's. Zuckerberg is the next Gates. That's what's important, and I think developing a "desktop environment" in the 2011-2016 era is a pretty outdated objective as the desktop diminishes in importance. Because where's the predicted $14billion app-market of 2014? Certainly not on the desktop! Better develop a "K Cloud Environment". Look at it like this: Microsoft et. all. made tons of money because they made proprietary software, and then came free software and they suffered from margin compression. Intel made tons of money because of lock-ins, anti competitive behaviour and lack of competition, and then came cheaper platforms hosting cheaper chips and Intel will suffer from margin compression. Google and Facebook make tons of money because they proprietarize data, but who will make sure they will suffer from margin compression (by opening up the data) some day? Think I almost have my submission ready... |
| devnet Dec 25, 2010 8:40 PM EDT |
@Ridcully Boy you are very touchy. Look at me...I'm like one of 2 people here that are trying to defend a project that is provided FOR FREE to ANYONE out there to use how they see fit...I'm trying to stick up for developers that put blood, sweat, and tears into a project from people saying they're all jackasses and not concerned with anyone but themselves. I'm getting pounded left and right and people are using straw man arguments as proof that what they're saying is true. Yet, here I am...still trying to reason with the unreasonable. According to most here, nothing I say about KDE4 is true and the developers ABSOLUTELY care about no one but other developers and are all assholes. So really, why are you upset about anything I say at all? Afterall, I've already been proven wrong by numerous people numerous times right? Quoting: And this particular quote is the one over which I feel even more irritation on a long term basis because it flies in the face of what is now happening: The Trinity KDE3.5 project. All the KDE4 team had to do was what the Trinity team is doing right now, ensuring KDE3.5 is Qt compatible. Instead the KDE4 team chose to completely disregard the fundamental principles of software development and tear up the most widely used KDE version while simultaneously dropping in something that was totally different in its concepts and operation. And believe me, because I am a KDE3.5 user who has moved to KDE4, I know this statement to be true. Maintaining 2 codebases/branches in any project is a tall order without increasing the number of developers. I'm pretty sure that their choice to "completely disregard the fundamental principles of software development" were actually normal choices that happen in just about any and all branches of software. Quoting:Ask yourself one thing please: If KDE4 is so screamingly good, why is this thread in existence and why are its various contributors saying more or less the same negative things about KDE4 after so much time and after so much "apparent" improvement ? I didn't know there was an aggregate source of all the various contributors and users saying negative things about KDE4. Most people I develop my distribution of Linux with actually like KDE4 and I don't hear much negative from them...so, your perspective is everyone is up in arms about how much KDE4 sucks...mine is that everyone is pretty happy where it is at. Who's right? Are you? Will you use an Lxer thread where everyone vs. 2 people serves as proof that you're right? Will you refer to mystical feedback that exists out on the web that 'everyone' is posting about the suckage that is kde4? Quoting:Devnet, why did they release it as 4.0 if it wasn't ready? Yeah, I know, to attract more users. But what good does it do to attract users if you're going to ignore them and/or belittle their comments? You got me man, you're going to have to ask the main KDE people on that one. This has NOTHING to do with what we're talking about right now though...we're talking about where KDE4 is NOW not where it was then. Quoting:The attitude I'm getting comes from the public statements of the KDE developers themselves.give me links to your examples please. I read planet daily and visit most of the KDE devs blogs. I subscribe to mailing lists for KDE as well. On a side note, I'm pretty sure these guys are far less abrasive than most of the kernel devs via the kernel devs mailing list...yet no one is talking about how crappy the kernel devs are. I'm just sayin. @tracyanne, TF did i ever do to you to have you call me arrogant? Seriously? Please, someone step in here and please put an end to this crap right here....we can't seem to have a conversation without someone calling other people names. I guess you're judging me AND my blog on the basis of one editorial rant despite it being online and blogging about Linux for over 6 years. Nice. Quoting:I notice you have not provided any answers to any of the questions/ issues/ blockages raised in my posts, Honestly, on Christmas, I haven't had the time. Apologies that in all my "arrogance" I was not able to do so to meet your expectations. Quoting:However, I have seen enough from various KDE developers that I do not want to trust my day to day computing needs to them. Links to where it happened please. Seriously. If you're going to call them out, show us. |
| hkwint Dec 25, 2010 8:50 PM EDT |
Seems KDE already implemented my earlier idea and somebody said "the exact same thing I meant above" in the comments to the original article: Wed, 2010/12/22 - 6:56pm — damipereira Quoting:I think Kde brainstorm is enough |
| dinotrac Dec 25, 2010 9:19 PM EDT |
>Links to where it happened please. Seriously. If you're going to call them out, show us. Are you serious? Come January, it will be 3 years since the release of KDE 4.0. As so many of the comments on this page indicate, some KDE developers have used that time to repeatedly demean their former user base and to demonstrate that they consider them(once upon a time that would be us, but, as I mentioned, I've moved on) to be a bunch of morons. At this point, asking for links to back my lack of trust is like asking for links to prove that the US is south of Canada. Either you've paid attention or you haven't. |
| Ridcully Dec 25, 2010 9:22 PM EDT |
@Devnet 1. Nope, not touchy at all. But if someone implies something about me which simply isn't the case, then I do get annoyed. Wouldn't you also get upset over a false implication about yourself ? And by the way, do you now accept that I am actually using KDE4 seriously ? Have you read my articles ? I fully accept that the KDE4 team work hard....no-one least of all me, accuses them of anything else. What I argue about is how they did it and what they produced. 2. I don't think that they had to maintain two code branches at all......They simply had to take KDE3.5 and upgrade it, step by step. That's what Trinity is doing. As for a complete break with the code base, we will have to disagree. It is not a step I would ever encourage if you want to keep a happy user base. I have seen K3b in its latest iteration in KDE4.4.4......it is different from that in KDE3.5......>>>>But so close that the differences are easily understood and compensated for. 3. Why not start a thread praising KDE4 and find out........I'd be interested in the results....and the serious reasons. 4. Christmas and its demands ? Darn good argument as far as I am concerned. |
| tracyanne Dec 25, 2010 9:26 PM EDT |
@devenetQuoting:TF did i ever do to you to have you call me arrogant? Seriously? Please, someone step in here and please put an end to this crap right here....we can't seem to have a conversation without someone calling other people names. I guess you're judging me AND my blog on the basis of one editorial rant despite it being online and blogging about Linux for over 6 years. Nice. What would you call the attitude exhibited in your blog post, the one you linked to, and your statements that indicate that the problem with KDE4 is a user problem, especially in light of the fact that said user are in fact using your latest and greatest. Sounds arrogant to me, hey what would I know. I'm only a lazy ignorant user (your words), who only tries something for 5 minutes before dissing it. |
| tracyanne Dec 25, 2010 9:47 PM EDT |
Quoting:I didn't know there was an aggregate source of all the various contributors and users saying negative things about KDE4. Most people I develop my distribution of Linux with actually like KDE4 and I don't hear much negative from them If I didn't try to personalise your 2010.12 distro with KDE4, I'd probably be very happy. Problem is it doesn't suit the way i like to do things, no Distribution does. So I customise. I can't customise KDE4.5.4 to suit my needs. I can customise every other Linux Desktop I've tried, to suit my personal preferences. I can think I a lot of people who would be very happy with you customisation of KDE4, only they would never use it. They are already happy enough with what Microsoft gives them as the defaults on Windows. |
| Bob_Robertson Dec 25, 2010 9:47 PM EDT |
Gee, I just dropped in to see if things were the same. They are. What I didn't realize is that I'm not the only lonely person on Christmas. What a pointless argument, might as well argue on YouTube with people who think food just "falls from trees". Good night, all, sleep well. |
| tracyanne Dec 25, 2010 9:50 PM EDT |
@Bob, it's morning here. I slept well thank you. |
| jdixon Dec 25, 2010 10:13 PM EDT |
> ...give me links to your examples please. Simply search the archives here for the KDE4 discussions. You'll find numerous examples. Tracyanne in particular has given numerous examples of problems and the responses, and the open letters from the developers have been discussed. But if you can read the comment in the first post on this thread and not find it condescending, then I doubt any of them will convince you. > As for a complete break with the code base, we will have to disagree. It is not a step I would ever encourage if you want to keep a happy user base. It can be done. You simply have to keep the user interface the same or similar enough for the changes to be obvious. If the interface must change, then the information on the differences should be in a faq and the help files. It's not like no one has ever managed this type of transition before. |
| Ridcully Dec 25, 2010 11:09 PM EDT |
Many, many thanks Jdixon.......you said precisely what I intended but described very badly. I keep thinking of the code and interface as a single unit and at that time was thinking of the interface, whereas they can (as you say) be considered and managed separately. As you have correctly pointed out, it is the GUI interface that must remain recognisable after an upgrade, even if the code underneath it is different. And that's the link that I think KDE4 broke rather horribly. |
| tracyanne Dec 26, 2010 6:32 PM EDT |
Quoting:Boy you are very touchy. Look at me...I'm like one of 2 people here that are trying to defend a project that is provided FOR FREE to ANYONE out there to use how they see fit... Part of the problem is that not everyone can use it as they see fit. I know I can't, and I'm still trying (with KDE4.5.4 on PCLinuxOS 2010.12) Quoting:I'm trying to stick up for developers that put blood, sweat, and tears into a project Good for you. I might point out that the amount blood sweat an tears expended does not necessarily make the project good or useful, or any less difficult for ordinary users to deal with. Quoting:from people saying they're all jackasses and not concerned with anyone but themselves. From a user perspective they, and you, certainly look like jackasses who are only concerned about themselves. Far too many public statements (like the one that started this thread), and including at least one made by yourself, the one you linked to from this thread, in fact, are antagonistic towards the user, blame the user for any problems they have with KDE4. I have never yet seen contrition from a KDE4 developer or apologist when it is demonstrated that the system is overly complex and obtuse (as I demonstrated when I accidentally discovered the route to setting the bottom panel to max width and auto hide),for example. Quoting:I'm getting pounded left and right and people are using straw man arguments as proof that what they're saying is true. Strawman arguments, please. If they were strawmen there would be no pounding, you would be able to answer them with more than rhetoric. Quoting:Yet, here I am...still trying to reason with the unreasonable. In the face of having demonstrations of where KDE4 is overly complex and obtuse, and still lacks useful functionality we loved in KDE3, more arrogance. |
| bigg Dec 26, 2010 7:38 PM EDT |
FOSS is about producing good quality software. The low price has nothing to do with it. How many patches has Linus refused over the years? All of them had low price tags too. If you don't want criticism, don't work on KDE. If criticism is a surprise then you've been living under a rock and have no business in this community. And once more just so I get the point across: It's about the quality of the software, and if you want someone to make you feel good, you're looking for a therapist, not the FOSS community. |
| devnet Dec 26, 2010 8:51 PM EDT |
Quoting:Have you read my articles ? Not until after you posted links to them in this thread...so you can see why I came to the conclusion I did...I don't read every single thing that comes across lxer.com nor that happens to go inside the forums here...I've only recently started visiting the forums after a year or more away. Quoting:What would you call the attitude exhibited in your blog post, the one you linked to, and your statements that indicate that the problem with KDE4 is a user problem You're taking it in the context of RIGHT NOW. It was written during the early parts of KDE4 (check date on the article). Most people attacked KDE4 without putting in any effort to find out how the configuration screens had changed. So, the article, when written at the time (it did post to lxer.com as well then...I know there is a thread on it here (found it: http://lxer.com/module/forums/t/29399/ ) I think I did a pretty good job at setting out to bust myths that accompanied KDE4 back then. Everyone was freaked out by the huge change. Also, my article was written in response to this article http://it.toolbox.com/blogs/locutus/what-i-dont-like-about-k... (summary paragraph at the end of the post links to it). So, it was a direct response to someone else's dismissive KDE4 article on another site. If I came off as arrogant it was to match tone. Quoting:If I didn't try to personalise your 2010.12 distro with KDE4 I'm not a PCLinuxOS developer nor have I been for many years. The last release I worked on was PCLinuxOS 2007 release...I left the developer ranks after that and I don't use PCLinuxOS anymore. Not because I don't think it is good (It is pretty decent) but because I work on Unity Linux (http://unity-linux.org) which is a derivative of Mandriva and have done so for 2+ years. Quoting:From a user perspective they, and you, certainly look like jackasses who are only concerned about themselves. If I'm so concerned with myself, why would I give any time to this argument at all? I'm not officially recognized as a KDE developer but am rather a minimalistic contributor. My only attempt in this conversation is to get people to get off the bandwagon of bashing KDE4. It's been cool for a very long time to bash KDE4...cool like owning an ipod/pad/mac. But whatever, it's impossible I guess. I'm surprised that anyone thinks I look like a jackass...I've been able to post in the past (Since January 2005 fwiw) without worrying that someone is going to personally attack me (save for Penguin Pete) or call me names. I thought I might have earned some lxer cred..but I guess not. |
| tracyanne Dec 26, 2010 9:12 PM EDT |
Quoting:You're taking it in the context of RIGHT NOW. No I'm taking it in the context of a recent similar statement by another KDE developers/apologists, and also things you've said on this thread. Sorry if I confused you with PCLOS development, I guess I missed the bit where you'd parted company. I'll have to check out Unity Linux. We all get to look like jackasses from time to time, I've done my share. It's the nature of the beast. Holding strong opinions. So I don't hold it against you. But I do want you to see things from my/our perspective, and just accept publicly that there may actually be some substance to the continuing complaints about KDE4. Even better I'd like to see the KDE developers like Aaron thingy publicly admit it at the KDE mutual admiration festival (I won't hold my breath though). |
| ComputerBob Dec 26, 2010 9:45 PM EDT |
In my opinion, the KDE4 developers achieved something that no other Linux DE developers could do: They created a DE that turned me -- a 3-plus-year, loyal KDE3-only user -- into a very happy Xfce user who has absolutely no interest in ever using KDE again. |
| jdixon Dec 26, 2010 10:01 PM EDT |
> My only attempt in this conversation is to get people to get off the bandwagon of bashing KDE4. People who liked, and if fact were loyal users of, KDE3 will probably always bash KDE4. The developers changed too much without consulting users or advising them of how to work around the changes. A system which worked well and met most of it's users needs was replaced by one which was largely incomplete, required completely new operations to get the same work done, and was poorly documented (to put it kindly). And you're surprised? I'm an outside observer in this matter. I usually run older, relatively underpowered systems. I therefore tend to use XFCE as my desktop environment. I normally only use some specific KDE apps, and only when I need their functionality. So I've watched the debate with interest, and made the occasional comment. Based solely on those observation, I've concluded that the KDE4 developers don't care what the KDE3 users think, and don't care if they use KDE4 or not. They think what they've made is better, and if you don't agree with them you're either misinformed or stupid. If that's my take on the matter as an outside observer, think how the KDE3 users who have tried to use the system and asked for help when it didn't work as they expected feel. On its own merits, without reference to KDE3, and after 3 years of work, KDE4 is probably now a passably usable system. It will probably eventually find new users to replace the ones they've lost, but they'll never get the old KDE3 users back, and it'll never again be the user friendly interface that most newbie friendly distros used. Those days are gone, and the developers have only themselves to blame. Now, I've recently upgraded to a newer system which is probably powerful enough to handle KDE4. But as I noted, I normally use XFCE and only a few KDE apps (mostly K3B). I would need a reason to switch to using KDE4. KDE4's much touted features don't give me that. A developer base which doesn't seem to care what the existing user base thinks and actively insults their complaints doesn't give me that. So why on earth would I ever want to switch to KDE4? |
| jdixon Dec 26, 2010 10:09 PM EDT |
> We all get to look like jackasses from time to time, All too true. |
| hkwint Dec 27, 2010 4:18 AM EDT |
It's sad there isn't some "real market survey" though, since the most vocal group with a certain opinion is not always the largest group. Happy people most of the times aren't vocal, only dissatisfied users are. Therefore the net is full with writings of the latter. |
| dinotrac Dec 27, 2010 8:39 AM EDT |
@hans - Wonder how you define happy in a case like this? Sounds like most of the "unhappy" users are actually pretty happy now, we're just happily using something else. |
| tuxchick Dec 27, 2010 12:06 PM EDT |
One more thought or three, then I shall find another dead equine to flog--- the KDE4 supporters strategy of continually focusing on why the critics are wrong is doomed to failure. You can't argue with "I don't like it because it does not do what I want." If KDE4 has so many great new and cool features, then tell what they are. There are all these weird buzzwords floating around, semantic desktop, Activities, Nepomuk, Akonadi, and all this crazy stuff, and it's meaningless. When I hear 'database backend and search index' I think 'Windows bloaty junk, yuck.' And then I look on my little laptop and I see that this database index is nearly 2 GB! Now what in the heck do I need all that for? How do I benefit? I don't. I find stuff faster and more precisely with find, grep, and locate, and they don't bring my dual-core system to a screeching halt, in classic Windows fashion, every time the index is updated. Why not just make a nice friendly graphical front-end to find, grep, and locate that makes common searches pointy-clicky, plus a box for arbitrary user command options? How do users benefit from Nepomuk? Why use confusing terminology like 'cashews' and 'dashboard'? In all other software a dashboard is a nice comprehensive control and monitoring panel. In KDE4 it is Spartan. Why does it take so many clicks to get to configuration menus with only one or two options? How does breaking configuration menus into multiple tabs with hardly any options on each tab benefit users? It drives me nuts. It takes too long to faff around and discover that there is no there there. I still remember Aaron Seigo ranting about how the old Gwenview had all these configuration options which screamed 'Look at me! Look how how powerful and amazing I am!' That is a very weird attitude, and that was when I developed serious doubts about the future of KDE. It's like Havoc Pennington infected KDE4 with the early Gnome 2 philosophy of simplifying the user experience by removing features wholesale. And the Gnome 2 philosophy of not listening to users-- remember how Havoc resisted the many pleas for a menu editor? And how Gnome finally got one because a college student took a summer off to write one and then managed to get Gnome to accept it? It wasn't a question of having enough developer bandwidth, Havoc just didn't want one. Why is there still no 'open as root' option for config files? I believe that the majority of KDE4 fans like it for its looks and fancy effects. In fact most reviews talk about appearance rather than function. Which is fine, just be honest about it and spare us the blahblah how it's all revolutionary and cool, because when it comes to functionality and efficiency I am not seeing revolutionary and cool, just lots of ornamentation and system hoggery. |
| devnet Dec 27, 2010 12:23 PM EDT |
I'll be interested to see what people think of two things that are coming in the near future on the other side of the fence: 1) Gnome Shell 2) Ubuntu Unity Desktop |
| herzeleid Dec 27, 2010 12:44 PM EDT |
@tc - that was the clearest and most comprehensive critique of kde4 I can remember ever seeing. |
| tracyanne Dec 27, 2010 4:22 PM EDT |
Quoting: I'll be interested to see what people think of two things that are coming in the near future on the other side of the fence: I'll happily discuss them in another thread. In the mean time what about a few issues that have been raised in previous posts that haven't been resolved yet. |
| hkwint Dec 27, 2010 5:10 PM EDT |
TC: I'm sorry to say, but your rant seems a bit uninformed and I even addressed the very topic of NEPOMUK before. Think of having 'updatedb', but no '(s)locate'. That's the current situation of NEPOMUK: There IS 'updatedb', but 'slocate' is not ready as of yet (4.5 era). So, of course you don't benefit from your 2GB index at all, if there's no way to search it! It was pretty much the same situation as with KDE-PIM until 4.4: There was Akonadi, but nothing was using it yet (as far as I understood). I think I said this before: If KDE4 was about new frameworks (though it seems other people think it was about QT4?), then KDE4 is not ready yet because (almost) "nothing" is using the new frameworks yet. Okay, it's coming, some of it came in 4.5 I believe - though I saw very strong advices not to use Kontact 4.5.1 as sometimes it "ate mail" so still at 4.4.x here - and some of it in 4.6. There are some frameworks which were used from the start though like Plasma, and Sonet by Amarok I believe, though I'm not sure as I'm no Desktop Environment user, I'm mainly a "KDE Apps"-user. In my opinion, they just forgot the zero in the middle and the beta at the end of the version numbers, because if it was 4.0.6b which was coming, it would be easier to explain it would be the first version making use of Nepomuk. Above, I explained why I think these frameworks are useful. But of course, frameworks which are not used are useless. And sad thing, whenever they will actually be used, they'll probably become even slower. Don't buy into the "new storage backend", it's just another way of saying "Kontact relies on / uses MySQL/InnoDB now". That easy! As to the why: Seems someone developed the idea of "one size fits all"-software: The backend should be usable for single end-users, but also for Kolab-groupware aimed at hundreds of users simultaneously trying to access some addressbook and adding / changing / deleting contacts. When comparing netbooks to laptops there are two ways to look at it: -One can say: The new netbooks don't resemble laptops well enough, because I can't do everything with it I did with my laptop, -One can say: The new netbooks resemble laptops TOO MUCH, because of the resemblance people develop the idea a netbook should be able to do the same as laptops did. I think such is the case with KDE4: One can say it doesn't resemble KDE3 well enough, but one could also go the other way and say it's too much like 3, and therefore people expect they can do the same with it as with 3. If it was developed as a parallel project aimed at different form factors, some cloud sauce and then called "K Cloud Environment", people would probably have no problem with it not being able to perform the functions which KDE3 performed. Now, because of resemblance and familiarity, people think it should perform the same functions as KDE3 did. No matter what way you look at it, the situation is pretty messed up. A few years ago (2007 I think), I heard about the new KDE4 frameworks and thought this was all going to be pretty exciting, but boy did I know it would take another four years to develop it. That was probably the biggest problem about KDE4: It was aiming too high. Even Microsoft can't fully rewrite their software to (use) new frameworks within a few years. Let alone a volunteer project which already suffered from a lack of developers / testers / documentation writers and so on. Maybe if they developed the frameworks one by one it would have made sense, but they decided it would be "cleaner" and "easier" to start from scratch. But it proved to be too much work, I think I can say now; still struggling with Akonadi-errors and manually adding the leap second table to MySQL (an error which Bugzilla said should already have been fixed in my version???) |
| Scott_Ruecker Dec 28, 2010 12:55 AM EDT |
Forum posting should work again..;-) |
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