Sounds logical to me
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Ridcully Dec 11, 2010 6:14 PM EDT |
Okay, I'll admit immediately I am no programmer. However given the results of Oracle stewardship on OpenOffice, open Solaris, and Java, I am not surprised at the suggestion being made in this article......In fact, I'd be more surprised if tentative opening talks between Apache and Google have not already taken place. Seems to me that the current activities and positions of both organisations make collaboration on a Java replacement almost a "done thing". My overall impression is that it's steadily showing that big proprietary companies like Oracle still cannot grasp one essential of FOSS: the happy and collaborating community is a crucial part of the FOSS package that they are administering. |
| tracyanne Dec 11, 2010 7:06 PM EDT |
Sounds like a plan. |
| r_a_trip Dec 11, 2010 7:19 PM EDT |
A plan indeed, but only if they can steer clear of the garbage that are software patents. Not only need they prove that Dalvik is not infringing, they will have to legally clear the harmony classes too. Every new development must make sure it doesn't tread on patent protected Java or .NET ground. A massive undertaking, but one that seems worthwhile. |
| KernelShepard Dec 11, 2010 7:50 PM EDT |
I'd drink to that! |
| keithcu Dec 12, 2010 3:29 AM EDT |
I think everyone should use Python. We don't need to develop another language, and Python is the best language for FOSS already. |
| dinotrac Dec 12, 2010 12:31 PM EDT |
Python bigot. Everybody should use ruby. It's the only language named after a gem that doesn't come from shellfish. |
| jimbauwens Dec 12, 2010 2:51 PM EDT |
Sorry guys, but Ti-Basic beats Python and Ruby, its simply the best programming language available. |
| cr Dec 12, 2010 4:02 PM EDT |
Is the Dalvik security model safe enough for client/server apps? If so, all they really need is a new front end and associated libraries. I wonder if they could get that quickly by compiling one of the OO scripting languages (Python|Ruby|...) to Dalvik bytecode. @dinotrac: I'm quite happy with using Perl as a kind of super-shell. If that off-the-shelf-interest means I'm being shellfish, so be it. All that sigil-wrangling builds mussel, you know. |
| Ridcully Dec 12, 2010 5:40 PM EDT |
Okay.......I'll risk exposing my rather poor programming knowledge base this much. I use a Java based piece of software called Lucid. My understanding of its operation is that in order for it to function, it must "see" a Java run-time engine in my Linux OS and it then runs on that interface. And Lucid will also run on OSX and Windows, provided it sees the relevant run-time engine/interface in each case. So, first question to the devotees of Ti-Basic, Python and Ruby: do all three programming languages use this same procedure of a run-time engine in Linux, OSX and Windows ? If not, then my limited knowledge suggests that they cannot be candidates for a Java replacement ??? From what I am seeing so far, Google seems convinced that its Dalvik system does not infringe Oracle's patents/copyrights/licenses/whatever. If Apache is likewise convinced, and the courts agree, then my bet would be on Dalvik. Assuming that is the road both organisations take, then there is no need for the expense of putting together a new language; existing Java could be retained as the programming language without any further worries of noises from Oracle. Moreover, I'd expect Google to want to keep Dalvik: I believe it has enormous advantages over vanilla Java in the mobile area. |
| Ridcully Dec 12, 2010 5:49 PM EDT |
Just browsing and came across this very relevant article: http://www.pcworld.com/article/213342/oracle_tries_to_pull_a... It sounds very much as if Oracle may have realised the damage it is doing to Java by getting Apache thoroughly "off-side". I think Oracle will have to do much more than say "please come back" however. |
| jimbauwens Dec 12, 2010 5:58 PM EDT |
I was just joking about Ti-Basic, its a programming language for calculators of Texas instruments, not for pc's :) |
| Ridcully Dec 12, 2010 6:14 PM EDT |
Oh dear, Jimbauwens, you've *really* exposed my lack of knowledge........LOL ! :-) |
| gus3 Dec 12, 2010 9:18 PM EDT |
Bash, the Bourne-Again Shell. If it can't be done in Bash, it isn't worth doing. |
| tracyanne Dec 12, 2010 9:41 PM EDT |
2 really good candidates for a replacement for Java (and C#), vala (has a java/C# style syntax) and genie (uses the same engine as vala, but uses a Python style syntax) Both compile to full binary, not byte code, but I dare say that should be possible to provide, if necessary. if they were extended to include http capability (web page handling) they would or could be killer languages. If that web page handling included the sort of code behind capability that C# has I think they could provide a replacement for Mono/.NET and possibly Java server pages (but I don't know enough about JSP to be sure) |
| dinotrac Dec 12, 2010 10:46 PM EDT |
@cr - Boo. |
| jezuch Dec 13, 2010 3:28 AM EDT |
Quoting:Boo. You mean this? http://boo.codehaus.org/ |
| bigg Dec 13, 2010 4:26 AM EDT |
Let's talk about Java replacements when COBOL is gone. Languages don't die. Java will be around for decades unless something comes along that can run and interface trivially with all existing Java code. |
| jacog Dec 13, 2010 7:11 AM EDT |
Minecraft runs on Java. So for that alone, I want it to live. :D |
| keithcu Dec 13, 2010 10:30 AM EDT |
I'm not a Python bigot. I recommend Python because it has the richest support on Linux. Like this: http://scipy.org/Topical_Software Ruby doesn't have anything close to that. The scripting language for everything from Gimp to Blender is Python. FOSS loses because it doesn't have enough people with common sense. |
| JaseP Dec 13, 2010 10:38 AM EDT |
All this developer political/bigotry stuff is why I truly believe once Meego goes into full release, it will slowly sap mind-share from Android. Android's Davlik (or the Java, which it shares heritage from) is just not as powerful as a true open system, where any run-time environment can be hosted or on which direct code can be run. Java, Davlik, ad nauseum, only helps the developers & the app peddlers (develop once, no re-compile, then sell, sell, sell). Meego just needs to avoid the same closed-minded claptrap we are now seeing around Android & Java. Case in point; ReMoku/BlueMaemo. This useful app allows a bluetooth device to emulate a bluetooth keyboard, mouse, game controller or presentation pointer (etc). Porting to Android is (near) impossible without a rooted device because of the bluetooth stack in the Davlik (?!?!) Virtual Machine. So, any equivalent Android apps need a PC resident "server" app to run. On an N900, BlueMaemo allows the handheld to directly emulate an input device. And this is just one example. |
| Koriel Dec 13, 2010 11:33 AM EDT |
As a java developer i like this idea and would love it to come to fruition but my nasty little brain keeps telling me its just a pipe dream and will never happen in reality no matter how i wish it was so. And by the way Sinclair Basic is the only true language! |
| dinotrac Dec 13, 2010 11:58 AM EDT |
@jezuch - Nope. I mean boo as in Boo! Boo! Booing. It's pundamental. |
| dinotrac Dec 13, 2010 12:00 PM EDT |
@keithcu - There you go again. But what should I expect? Snakes have forked tongues while gems shine and make you look good to your girlfriend. Any honest analyst can see that. |
| hkwint Dec 14, 2010 7:16 PM EDT |
Quoting:Sorry guys, but Ti-Basic beats Python and Ruby Second that. Funny thing was, any BASIC program was "open software" by default, and in practice you could say it was Free Software, because nobody was going to enforce copyright or patents anyway. Also, there was no way at all of protecting software; no way to have serials because you just changed "if" to "if not(" and you would be done. The 83-dialect is about the only interpreted computer language where you can store the command "Output(" in only 1 byte , and you can do cool optimizations like rewriting "log(C)+1" to 1+log(C", no need to close parentheses so eventually saving 1 byte. And you can manually type in hex-assembly and run it with a simple "send(9****". Running the self-test actually reset the whole thing and all content was lost, which was kinda... Er, interesting to say the least. Building your own pixel routines was also great fun, making your own mega-slow snake game in Basic on the 4mHz processor. It could be overclocked with a 0.1pF capacitor, but I think that was just a bad internet-joke to fool people like me, because no matter how hard I searched, I couldn't find one. Even not in the 600+ Conrad-catalog. What I always liked the most of the machine, was making up random hex-numbers - especially using CD a lot(assembly call to address!), and then running it as assembly and see what happens. Sometimes, you received the weirdest output, almost destroying the machine as well; and you needed to remove all batteries for over a minute to have it back. Once, I made my screen display purple lines. Which is kind of funny, because it's a black and white screen. And sometimes you could display nice garbled ASCII-chars all around the screen. Such a great machine! Almost sad I own a 89 now; as it seemed ~32k was all I ever needed. When you needed an 'objects-like system', you wrote it yourself in BASIC; because out of the box it didn't support it. You just used integer-variables as 'messages to send to objects', and upon receiving those ints the 'objects' could decide which block of code to run, hence emulating object-oriented in BASIC. I even emulated linked lists (of course it didn't support those), which was kind of funny because I even 'nested' them (with the lengths all at the beginning and actual data at the end BTW), they actually worked but I had never ever even heard of linked lists back then. I also devised my own zipping-algorithm which used a QuadReg to match the isotrope table of the table of elements as closely as possible, and only save differences between data and the QuadReg. And it wasn't designed to convert numbers to strings, the only way possible was about the obscurest algorithm ever designed by human, by means of doinng a LinReg; matching {1,2} against {A,2A} and then retrieving 'a'. Also, I went on the hunt for a primitive of the 'normal distribution' function, and my hunt lasted for about a year. Because only after a year, I learned that function mathematically just didn't exist; which might have explained my failure to find it. Needed to reload my batteries about every month, I recall. And you could drop it, even throw it around the classroom, spill coffee over it, clean the keyboard with soap after it and it still survived. Back then, I didn't know what a compiler was, so I thought you had to translate ASM to Hex by hand. I printed out 50+ pages of translation tables from ASM to Hex, but just before I started using them I found out you could let a computer do the translation. What a great invention! Yeah, those were the days! Maybe one of the last pieces of great US/Taiwanese engineering, who'd tell? And now we have 1.5gHz dual core full HD phones costing less than a 89. Wel, that's not bad, but the freakin' things running Java on the other hand is. |
| gus3 Dec 14, 2010 9:13 PM EDT |
Quoting:especially using CD a lot(assembly call to address!)A Z-80? /me double-checks the opcode Sure enough, CD is a branch and link to -(SP). You never forget your first love. |
| jimbauwens Dec 15, 2010 4:14 AM EDT |
Yep, the ti-83 is z80. But I prefer programming on the 68k series (89, 92 plus). I've actually have a whole basic game programmed, and ready to be released on ticalc.org. But first I want to do a port to Linux (and Android). And now I have to choose what language I want to program it in :) hkwint: You can always switch your 89 with my 83 :p |
| cr Dec 15, 2010 9:22 AM EDT |
Actually, when you mentioned TI-Basic, I thought you were talking about what ran on the TI 99/4. Shows how behind in calculator-land I am, still lugging my HP-41CV around. |
| jimbauwens Dec 15, 2010 9:25 AM EDT |
cr: [quote]The HP-41C represents a totally new concept in the design of Hewlett-Packard calculators. In fact, because of the advanced capabilities of the HP-41C, it can even be called a personal computing system. The HP-41C is the first Hewlett-Packard handheld calculator offering an exciting array of alphanumeric capabilities. With so many different kinds of calculator uses and applications in the world, we at Hewlett-Packard decided we could provide a significant contribution by designing and building you a quality calculator with expandable and flexible capability. The alphanumeric HP-41C is just the calculator.[quote] Wow! |
| hkwint Dec 15, 2010 9:44 AM EDT |
gus3: Most important command: CD5547 is a call too 4755, which clears the screen! I have to admit I like Python though, as my TI83 programs basically were ~10k programs pushed in one line of code. Statements like :End:End:End:End:End:A+1->A:End:End:End were no exception, and then one of the End's was at the wrong place and such. Java, I haven't got the hang of it as of yet, though I'm trying to learn C++ now. |
| dinotrac Dec 15, 2010 9:47 AM EDT |
Hans - Java. Ptui. There is no such thing as java, only a pile of big frameworks without which you can do nothing. |
| hkwint Dec 15, 2010 9:50 AM EDT |
I managed to write hello world in VI / command line though! Actually took me several hours, but still. But now I understand, I think. |
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