"...and won't be tolerated."
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| kenholmz Sep 15, 2010 8:28 PM EDT |
I commend the author, I commend the Peppermint moderators, and I commend Scott. There is a reasonable limit to tolerance and a reasonable response. Otherwise it becomes a case of, "come into my parlor said the fly to the spider." |
| Scott_Ruecker Sep 15, 2010 9:49 PM EDT |
The toughest part of being a forum moderator is knowing, explaining and adhering to the rules. You can have the most succinct and fair TOS on the planet but if you cannot apply it evenly and consistently, you shouldn't be the moderator..;-) And Thank You for the compliment Ken. |
| pmpatrick Sep 15, 2010 10:21 PM EDT |
I'm not sure what constitutes "Terminal Bullying" but can "GUI Bullying" be any less offensive? Jerks are jerks, regardless of the mode of action. I really don't think it is bullying to ask some one to run a command in a terminal. If you are dealing with a neophyte, you just have to make your instructions clear and explain what you are doing and why. It is frequently the most efficient way to get at the underlying problem. I think the Peppermint mods have gone too far in one respect - users are not allowed to post code on the Peppermint forum; only mods can post code:
Quoting:3. Your systems safety and security is of the utmost importance to us, so we only the forums moderators will be allowed to post code on the forums. This will ensure that all information posted will not harm or compromise your system in any way.I guess that's one way to make sure no one is a victim of a Terminal Bully. |
| tracyanne Sep 15, 2010 10:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:I really don't think it is bullying to ask some one to run a command in a terminal. It's not. Although I usually try to give both, doing a GUI explain is hard work though. It also needs to be noted that most people are not aware that one can copy/paste into the CLI, and so see typing complex commands as unnecessarily bothersome. Quoting:If you are dealing with a neophyte, you just have to make your instructions clear and explain what you are doing and why. Absolutely. but that applies no matter what path you take. Quoting:It is frequently the most efficient way to get at the underlying problem. It is, but often the GUI approach is clearer to people who are habituated having a graphical Window in front of them instead of the CLI. The CLI appears to be much harder because one is required to type rather than click. However that said the majority of new Linux users who currently visit Linux forums are pretty flexible, else thye wouldn't be experimenting, or even visiting the Forums. Hopefully as time passes there will be more less technically savvy people taking up Linux. Although it's probable that such people will defer to their more technically savvy friends. |
| moopst Sep 15, 2010 10:40 PM EDT |
find / -exec rm -rf '{}' \; I'm a bad boy! |
| azerthoth Sep 16, 2010 12:36 AM EDT |
The more I read, the more I had the over powering feeling of political correctness run amok. Now normally I am an IRC over forums type of person. Troubleshooting works best in real time, where I can be honest enough to say "interesting question, give me a few minutes to get some reference". However in almost every instance I and the others will come back with a command line answer. Thats not elitist, in simplist terms, kde moves/renames things from one revision to the next. Thats different from where you would click to accomplish the same thing in Gnome, or XFCE, or LXDE. It's faster than click here, scroll there, select this and that, click here and select apply. Hoping to $DIETY the entire time that they are observant enough to see the buttons and spot where they are going in the scroll. instead I can say 'apt-get install' 'pacman -Syy' 'equo install' or some other variant. 99% of the time, command line is faster and relies less on someones observational skills and replaces it with a couple of simple words to type in. It's not elitism, simply put it's universal whereas the myriad of WM/DE's handle the same task differently across the board. Not to put too fine a point on it, this article and the forums it's commending, are prime examples of convincing a 'special needs' child that they can grow up to be a surgeon when they can barely handle velcro straps on their shoes at 14 years old kind of P.C. mentality. |
| gus3 Sep 16, 2010 2:41 AM EDT |
@az, I understand the point you're making, but I take exception to your last paragraph. Michael Oher's story is a great exception that disproves the rule (even if Hollywood distorted it). |
| cr Sep 16, 2010 5:20 AM EDT |
Quoting: 99% of the time, command line is faster and relies less on someones observational skills and replaces it with a couple of simple words to type in. It's not elitism, simply put it's universal whereas the myriad of WM/DE's handle the same task differently across the board. It's also more succinct and can be applied verbatim... Though that gets into the give-a-fish-or-teach-fishing issue. IME the problem with that one is, most of the time, they really want the fish right then and there and they're too impatient (or desperate) to learn the offered lessons and they know it. Or they're afraid, if they get into the lessons, they'll wind up spending all of their time fishing and none of it eating. I know some Windows folks who're convinced that we Linux folks dwell on working-on-computers to the almost total exclusion of using computers to get stuff done... maybe because that's the only time they can be bothered to pay attention to what we're doing. Also, unless you can open the exact app and desktop they've got on your own console, you're unlikely to be able to coach them through using it to get the job done; even the minor variations among Firefox's versions and platforms have caused some confusion in my coaching-by-phone efforts. Lately there's been a real uptick in how-to articles for GUI-driven tasks, complete with real actual pictures from screenshots, and that's a good thing. if I can find one on a quick search after getting a GUI question, I think I best help the querent by passing them the link and telling them to read it through and come back to me with any remaining questions. They can get the graphic directions in an article where somebody's had a chance to sit down and compose the text in an orderly manner, rather than being under the gun for answers-right-now. |
| kenholmz Sep 16, 2010 11:36 AM EDT |
I feel like I'm watching "Dead Poet's Society" just now. I need to stand on my desk and get a different perspective. The article I read is NOT about the CLI. And yes, some of you touched on the relevant aspects of the article, some more than others. Still, I think I am not the only one who needs to look into the room through a different opening. |
| helios Sep 16, 2010 12:42 PM EDT |
ok...I help many of the people that receive HeliOS Project computers. Many times they do something dumb like delete their bottom panel or close down their computer incorrectly and get a busybox prompt when they boot. 90 percent of the time, having them run fsck with the proper switches fixes the problem. The most common is that their wireless won't work. Usually this just takes a few minutes of debugging. When this happens, I tell them to go to applications/accessories and then click "Terminal" From there it's a simple matter of typing in iwconfig (or ifconfig if applicable) and getting a sense of what is working and what is either showing up or not. While they would not know how to do this on their own, no one has really complained about having to do it. Ditto with running lspci or lsusb. I tell them to write down these commands and remember them for next time. I have even taken to installing Yakuake on our machines in the past 6 months. If you explain to people what the command line is and how it works with some of the commands, we've found people will actually start using it for other things such as installing software or using the locate command to find files. Pull back the curtain and let them see the little man at the console and it becomes a whole lot less spooky to them. I'm just sayin'... h |
| caitlyn Sep 16, 2010 2:54 PM EDT |
I agree with helios and also with kenholmz comment about this not being about the CLI. It is all about how you treat people, how you approach people and what sort of attitude you bring to a forum. There is a small but vocal minority of the Linux community that are elitist, don't like newbies and wishes they would go away. I've seen time and again where people looking for help are treated with utter disrespect and are berated for asking a question in a less than clueful way. Some forum moderators step in, some don't and some encourage this sort of nonsense. Peppermint has taken the extra step on making it a rule. Linuxchix had a nicer way of putting it: "Be polite, be helpful." That was rule #1. That is really all this is about. Some people aren't either because of a lack of social skills, a lack of comprehension about the level of help really needed or, in some cases, a deliberate decision that the person asking the question isn't worthy of a polite, helpful response. A forum moderator needs to be able to discern when rudeness is deliberate and deal with it accordingly. When it isn't deliberate all you can do is try to help the person asking the question. Does Peppermint take it too far? IMHO, yes, they do when they ban code. Like helios I've walked people through a brief excursion to the command line. I've even had people ask me if the command line was really necessary and my answer is almost always something like: "No. It is faster and easier for me to explain. You could have done this without the command line but it would have been more difficult or taken longer." People accept that for the most part. Remember that MacOS and Windows have the command line too. What I don't like about the article is equating bullying (a real issue) with a terminal session. The two have nothing to do with each other. What I don't like about certain comments is the whole P.C. argument. Shouting "PC!" is a way by some to excuse all sorts of boorish behavior, both IRL and online. To me, political correctness is just not going out of your way to offend people and thinking about the consequences of what you might say instead of just blurting things out. To me, political correctness is generally a good thing. Oh, and yes I am aware that too much of a good thing can be harmful at times. |
| kingttx Sep 16, 2010 3:25 PM EDT |
Agreed, less about sending CLI text and more about too many geek egos shouting down newbies. Such irresponsibility has about killed off a local LUG even if many won't acknowledge it (or they justify it in some way). Being courteous isn't necessarily a P.C. thing. Social skills usurped by geek rage shouldn't be the norm. |
| kenholmz Sep 16, 2010 8:55 PM EDT |
"What I don't like about the article is equating bullying (a real issue) with a terminal session." Touché, Caitlyn. Touché! |
| TxtEdMacs Sep 17, 2010 11:00 AM EDT |
kenholmz, Your nothing but a quitter. How can you be so easily swayed? Quoting:Touché, Caitlyn. Touché!Letting facts get in the way of what you know to be true, is the easy, elitist form of surrender. The answer is fight on even when you know you are wrong. Am I not right? YBT P.S. As for your penitence, sign on to a Debian help form and shout RTFM to every utterance*, then you will be returned to good standing. * Whether a question or not. |
| Scott_Ruecker Sep 17, 2010 2:00 PM EDT |
I got an idea..I know I know but work with me here people.. What if we had a forum just for really smart and cool geeks where we (see how I included myself in the group?) can just make fun of each other and others using only acronyms, abbreviations and slang that only we can understand? That way no one will know what we are saying and will have no idea just how smart we are or be capable of fathoming the true geekness of our answers. It'll be like we're cool or something..;-) |
| gus3 Sep 17, 2010 2:59 PM EDT |
"Geek elites." Yeah, I like it. It just rolls off the tongue. Wait, did I say that out loud? |
| kingttx Sep 17, 2010 5:04 PM EDT |
And everyone must use Geek Code in their signature, right? :) |
| gus3 Sep 17, 2010 6:18 PM EDT |
My geek-ness is so powerful, the Geek Code can't express it properly. |
| helios Sep 17, 2010 11:10 PM EDT |
Then would that make us "gelites" running off to beat Oracle to the copyright office... h |
| gus3 Sep 17, 2010 11:51 PM EDT |
@h: "to the copyright office" is unnecessary. Dang, I'm on a roll today. |
| Scott_Ruecker Sep 18, 2010 3:42 AM EDT |
Hear ye Hear ye..I call this first meeting of Geekelites to order... First order of business, someone tell Helios its bad karma to beat on an Oracle.. Second order of business is..oh look its shots of Jagermeister for everyone! ;-) |
| hkwint Sep 18, 2010 12:03 PM EDT |
Oh no, you've been drinking Jagermonkey again? You know fermented apple became alcohol, turned to nitro and was inserted? Makes you feel like a magic dictator, doesn't it? The remedy I suggest, is eating lots of JavasScript (preferably obfuscated spaghetti) and see at what rate you can spit out bitecode. Hopefully, you have a Virtual Food Processor Machine to process the bitecode. Otherwise, when on the station, rest assured the bitecode is portable and you carry it when crossing to another platform, before vomiting. Er, I meant omitting the framepointer. Because what's the point of using frames - besides B-frames? Nah, I'm not good at pretending to be a geek I'm afraid. I'll be off to my hash-table I think. I'll think I'll burn the hash in the | . |
| gus3 Sep 18, 2010 1:10 PM EDT |
Perhaps not a geek, but I nominate hkwint to be the Deputy Punster, to be in charge of the hot dog and hamburger puns. |
| hkwint Sep 18, 2010 8:10 PM EDT |
Actually, I was looking forward to read 'the Little Schemer' (former "little LISPER"), maybe that explains it a bit. |
| hkwint Sep 18, 2010 8:11 PM EDT |
Actually, I was looking forward to read 'the Little Schemer' (former "little LISPER"), maybe that explains it a bit. BTW: Look what I just found! A picture made by someone else, depicting what Scott has been drinking! http://www.webmonkey.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/Jaegermo... |
| Scott_Ruecker Sep 18, 2010 11:19 PM EDT |
Hey! Where did you get that pic of me? Not fair! ;-) |
| kingttx Sep 20, 2010 3:13 PM EDT |
Jägerbombs |
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