Against the spirit of FOSS
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| bigg Jul 31, 2010 6:42 AM EDT |
While I agree with the points made in this article, I would add one more reason why it's wrong to go after Canonical. There's no obligation beyond respecting the license. Some would disagree with me, but if that's the case, GNOME should adopt a different license. Let's not give Red Hat too much credit here. They don't contribute out of niceness, they do so because a better product allows them to sell more. |
| zenarcher Jul 31, 2010 8:23 AM EDT |
If those people who complain about Canonical wish to draw users away from Ubuntu, getting them to use distros that contribute more, perhaps they should take time to think like "average users," and less time thinking like "developers." I'm just an "average user," and have used several distros over the past five years....OpenSUSE, Mandriva, Fedora and Kubuntu (as I prefer the KDE environment). For the past couple of years, I've stayed with Kubuntu. Why? Well, when I think about switching to another distro, the first thing I do is look at which applications I use and need. I'm a ham radio operator, so I use applications such as Klog and CallGit, among others. I do a search for applications and can't find many of the applications packaged for other distros. No, I don't want to untar some package and hope I have all the dependencies met. I just want a simple way to install and Kubuntu/Ubuntu has them. Likewise, I want steghide with the GUI. I go to KDE-Apps.org and sure enough...there are .deb packages for Ubuntu. Easy to download and install. The same goes for many other applications. If I'm looking for an easy to follow, "How To," I'll do a Google search and nine times out of ten, I'll find one...for Ubuntu/Kubuntu. I'll find a plethora of "How To's" for Ubuntu/Kubuntu I've never even thought about before but are worthwhile. More "How To's" than I find for any other distro. Then, there are hardware drivers. I want to use the proprietary Nvidia driver. Kubuntu....one click. Fedora...I spend two days of total frustration, follow "How To's" which don't work for me. I then go to the Fedora forum and find more "How To's" which don't work for me or which I don't understand. I ask for help and am given a lecture on how much better off I am to use the free Nvidia driver from the "freedom" philosophy. Great, but I don't have all the features I have with the proprietary driver. Same with setting up my HP network printer. Never can get it installed, yet a couple of clicks with Kubuntu and it's working just fine. The Fedora forum?? No responses. I must have the only HP network printer around. I'm not an Ubuntu "fanboy." I could care less about the name of the distro I use. I'm just an old retired guy who probably isn't as quick thinking as I was when I was younger. I don't want to jump through a hundred hoops to get an application I need installed, nor to have my hardware working as I wish it to work. So, maybe Canonical doesn't "contribute" in the true philosophical sense for many, but as has been said, there are many ways to "contribute." Maybe it's contributing to the community, since so many skilled people spend so much time making sure there are endless applications packaged and available for "average users." Or those other people who contribute with never ending easy to follow, "How To's." Or those people with the patience on forums to walk you through what you want to do, using simple explanations...even just "copy and paste" instructions, if necessary. Maybe the world of contributing covers many facets beyond the philosophical aspect so often argued in these articles which complain about Canonical and their "contributions." At least from the perspective of the "average user." |
| pmpatrick Jul 31, 2010 10:33 AM EDT |
As far as the package selection goes, let's give credit where credit is due - those .deb packages(Klog , CallGit, etc) are from one of the debian branches and were originally packaged by debian developers. From a package point of view, a ubuntu release is, by and large, just a snapshot of debian testing. If you want maximum package selection install debian and be done with it; no distro has a greater package selection than debian. All this brings up another recurring criticism of ubuntu, its failure to contribute back to the debian community. Ubuntu uses much from debian; it couldn't exist without debian and the ongoing debian development by the debian community. However, the claim is often made by those in the debian community that Canonical contributes little back to debian. Your willingness to praise ubuntu for the scope of its package selection without seeming to realize where those packages come from and who should really be given credit for them is at the heart of the hostility many feel toward ubuntu. Giving proper credit and acknowledging the contributions of others is not required by the GPL but it is definitely part of the social etiquette of the free software community. Ubuntu users tend to be newer to linux and often have the impression that ubuntu somehow invented all of this stuff themselves. Ubuntu is often seen as doing little to disabuse these neophytes of that mis-perception. |
| zenarcher Jul 31, 2010 10:49 AM EDT |
Well, I've tried installing Debian...it's been awhile back...and found it somewhat confusing to install and set up. Maybe that's just me. I have been around Linux for about five years, and it's one of the last distros I've used, so I'm pretty well aware that Canonical didn't invent all the stuff themselves. Rather than meaning to praise Ubuntu or Canonical, I may have missed the point I was trying to make. My primary point was, for the average person, like myself, what's really important is the volume of packages available and the multitude of "How To's." As you say, they exist with Debian, as well but lack with the other distros. Likewise, I found that when I tried Debian, the proprietary drivers I wanted and some of the setup, such as the network printer, just didn't work for me. Certainly, I would love to see the huge package inventory with other distros and some ease with things such as installing the proprietary Nvidia driver. If Canonical can make the procedure as easy as they do, why make the process so complicated in the first place? Certainly I give credit to the people who do the Debian packaging and I realize that isn't a Canonical effort. I'd just like to see other distros make so many packages available...be it RPM packages or whatever else. |
| bigg Jul 31, 2010 11:13 AM EDT |
> no distro has a greater package selection than debian. I've heard that, but I'm not entirely convinced. It depends what you're trying to do. Mandriva and Arch are both of similar depth (though you may have to build a few of your own packages with Arch). Setting up Debian for CUDA development, for example, is not much fun. On Mandriva and Arch you just install the relevant packages. All packages are not the same either - with Debian there is so much time between releases that you're either using ancient software or a development version. I got burned by Debian before, listening to those who say it's okay to run a development version, and found out what that really means. If you want the best selection of all the latest packages, you need to use Arch. Of course, this is a bit of a tangent from Canonical's contributions. > Giving proper credit and acknowledging the contributions of others is not required by the GPL but it is definitely part of the social etiquette of the free software community. That's one of the traditions I don't care for. What should matter is the availability of high quality free software. I don't understand why we should call it "GNU/Linux" when "Linux" identifies the product and doesn't make us look like a pack of morons. Freedom should extend to not having to give credit if we don't want to. I don't like these after the fact, "oh by the way" additions to the license. |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 31, 2010 11:34 AM EDT |
pmpatrick [Serious] Upon seeing the packages labeled deb it was a dead give away that it's Debian based. Nonetheless, should one go the Debian route and [insert whatever deity you implore] if there is a problem the response to newbies* are NOT welcomed with understanding on the Debian forums. Thus, while credit for creation and proper packaging is due to the Debian community, their allowing distorted personalities free reign on support forums keeps more people out of Linux than their superior product retains. Txt. * Unfortunately that applies to others with skill, because too often the jerk population that resides upon Debian forums is there just to give the sterling, useless advice of "RTFM". Thus, the latter negates the efforts of good souls that are truly helpful on those same forums, because the former are quicker to respond with the packaged Wisdom. [/Serious] |
| TxtEdMacs Jul 31, 2010 11:46 AM EDT |
Sorry about the confusing use of 'the latter ... ' followed later by 'the former ... ' where both refer to the unhelpful. I had an edit, but an older version got sent. The main cause is I have very severe hardware problems - one machine temporarily dead the other with a terribly slow network connections. Regarding this machine, I found it had no connections at all, got a wire to work, but so slow. Though a later faster distribution, I cannot even successfully load a mere five tabs where I could load, near a hundred on my other machine's browser. No email yet and my searches for fixes have not been promising, so far. |
| azerthoth Jul 31, 2010 12:09 PM EDT |
Against the spirit? From the start it has been as contentious as a bag full of cats. Start with a megalomaniac, toss in a few 'true believers', sprinkle with fanboi's ... going after Ubuntu/Canononical for talking the talk but not walking the walk is actually in the true spirit of FOSS. RMS has been lashing out at perceived 'intellectual injustice' from the beginning, with that glowing example of leadership, is it any shock that some would follow in his foot steps? |
| ComputerBob Jul 31, 2010 2:12 PM EDT |
Quoting:...if there is a problem the response to newbies* are NOT welcomed with understanding on the Debian forums. Thus, while credit for creation and proper packaging is due to the Debian community, their allowing distorted personalities free reign on support forums keeps more people out of Linux than their superior product retains...It looks like you must have seen the following new (and very busy) thread in the Debian support forums: http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54074&start=0 |
| Steven_Rosenber Jul 31, 2010 5:22 PM EDT |
ComputerBob, I just looked at that Debian Forums thread, and this entry http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=54074&start=0#p... leaped out:Quoting:As a relatively new Debian user (2 yr +) I roughly agree with your points, although as has been said, hate is too strong a word. Sure Shuttleworth's millions are a factor for Ubuntu, but Ubuntu itself, along with projects like Mint and PCLinuxOS (on the newbie end) and Arch, Sidux and Gentoo (on the grizzled-veteran end) exist and thrive because they fill a need that the existing distributions/projects are not taking care of very well. Debian is great. No doubt about it. I've probably run it on more systems for more time than anything else because it runs better (or at all) on more of those systems. But Debian doesn't always take care of new users very well. I like the Debian User Forums, but they are less-used by far than they should be. A user of Debian, more often than not, can find answers to their questions in the Ubuntu Forums. Sure there are a lot of not-so-helpful answers, but there are so many posts you're likely to find what you need not just for Ubuntu but Debian, Mint, CrunchBang and the like. The Ubuntu community is very good with new users. Those active on the forum know they're going to be asked the same questions hundreds of times. You don't get and keep new users by being anything but helpful and patient, and for Ubuntu and the community in general is a very valuable thing. And yes, I think that's an extremely significant contribution to the entire Linux and FOSS ecosystem. I'll go back to one of the communities perceived as downright hostile: OpenBSD. You're told very early on that reading and knowing the FAQ, using the man pages and doing a search before you ask is a good way to go. In the case of projects like OpenBSD, showing the community that you've "done your homework," goes a long way. Just reading the OpenBSD-related discussion on DaemonForums.org, which is friendlier than the mailing lists, will give you a good idea of what is acceptable and not. In any community, posting without a great deal of lurking beforehand will definitely get you into trouble. As far as other BSDs go, I don't see any less RTFM on Forums.freebsd.org - and their FAQ/Handbook is somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 pages. In the case not just of Ubuntu but Debian, Arch, Gentoo, the BSDs, etc., having voluminous amounts of up-to-date and easily navigated online documentation is the answer to just about all of these issues. Some projects are better at this then others. Most newbies (and everybody else, too) I'm sure wouldn't mind at all to have their question answered with, "Look at this Wiki page, which should answer your question / solve your problem, and if not, let us know what you did and how it went, and maybe somebody will have more targeted information." OpenBSD is in no way aiming for the kind of world domination that Ubuntu (or Linux in general) aspires to. I don't even think FreeBSD has ambitions, on the desktop anyway (and PC-BSD notwithstanding, as it stands alone as the only BSD desktop-focused project), but for those in the Linux community who want to bring users over from Windows and Mac, a welcoming and helpful (and non-threatening) attitude is the only way to go. |
| zenarcher Jul 31, 2010 5:26 PM EDT |
TxtEdMacs: As you point out and as ComputerBob supplied the link, the Debian forum hardly encourages a newbie to seek help. What may seem simple and basic to a skilled user may seem insurmountable to a newbie. At 65 years of age, I've learned a lot, but I wasn't born knowing what I do. And I've spent a lot of time and patience in my life helping others who wished to learn something and needed help, even it it seemed basic to me. At best, that thread ComputerBob offered, shows a juvenile mentality which is going to do little to attract much more than more juveniles. I've seen a few similar posts on the Ubuntu forums, but someone generally will give the poster a quick admonishment. I've been a ham radio operator for 43 years. Another area requiring a fair bit of technical assistance. We've always used what we call the "Elmer" approach with newbies. An "Elmer" is someone with the skills and takes the time and patience to answer the same rudimentary questions time and time again, if necessary. We try to encourage participation, not discourage learning. A bit more mature approach than the Debian forum seems to apply. Much the same on several of the other forums. I've encountered problems with Fedora and posted on the forums....only to be met with utter silence. I ask myself if I'm the only one who has ever attempted to set up an HP network printer with Fedora. Apparently so, as there is silence. I run hp-setup, as I do with Kubuntu and get little but errors. Or, I attempt to get a package installed, with no success and am given a list of other dependencies I need to have. Why doesn't the installer find those dependencies? If I'm asking for help in installing the proprietary Nvidia driver, I'm not seeking a lecture in why I should use the free driver which is crippled. As for the number of packages available....I don't know. I just know that I can set up a few easy to locate PPA's with Kubuntu and I have all the packages I need. With other distributions, there are always packages I need which I cannot find. So yes, perhaps others find all they need with other distributions, but I personally do not. |
| tmx Jul 31, 2010 5:27 PM EDT |
Quoting:It looks like you must have seen the following new (and very busy) thread in the Debian support forums: [HYPERLINK@forums.debian.net]And another thread goes on about "What is a "Real" Debian User." I'm not sure, but maybe there are better things to do than to argue about these ideologies. Remind me of that group of people trying to rebel in the movie Monty Python - Life of Brian. I'm afraid of Ubuntu forum and now I'm definitely staying away from Debian forum. |
| pmpatrick Jul 31, 2010 5:38 PM EDT |
Re debian having the largest package selection, I don't think there can be any doubt. Debian maintains a full set of its packages for a huge number of architectures: http://www.debian.org/ports/ Arch and mandriva support only intel x86 and amd64. That's the basis for the assertion that debian has most packages. Re giving developers credit, there's a good reason for that tradition. Many developers donate their time and labor to free software projects. One of the main things they get back is recognition and the opportunity to build a good reputation as a skilled developer which in turn can impact their professional opportunities. An environment where credit is not given undermines this incentive. Re the debian forums, I've never used them so I can't comment. But if you think they are bad, you should take a look at the BSD forums; those guys are really tough. |
| ComputerBob Jul 31, 2010 5:50 PM EDT |
A full-time Linux user since July of 2006, I've been using Debian full-time for more than 2 1/2 years. I'm a regular visitor and contributor to the Debian support forums, but a small group of elitist bullies there have been allowed to publicly ridicule and villify me and other helpful posters many, many times -- because they thought that we were being too helpful to newbies. In the Debian support forum thread to which I linked, several of the posts are from forum moderators (their names are in green). |
| jdixon Jul 31, 2010 8:20 PM EDT |
> ...no distro has a greater package selection than debian. >> ...I've heard that, but I'm not entirely convinced. I've compared them in the past, and I believe Debian has the largest selectionn of packages, with one caveat: If you're talking commercial support, Red Hat is the clear winner. I don't believe either Debian or Fedora are set up for a desktop user to compile their own packages out of the box, though. For that you want something like Gentoo, Arch, or Slackware. |
| tracyanne Aug 01, 2010 7:44 PM EDT |
Just been reading Bob's link. Interesting... one of them refers to himself as a grown man. That he may be, but maturity has somehow managed to elude him, and his playmates. You're pushing sh1t uphill Bob. They are determined to be rude obnoxious and juvenile, where they are they get to be the big boys in the sandpit. |
| ComputerBob Aug 01, 2010 9:26 PM EDT |
Quoting:They are determined to be rude obnoxious and juvenile, where they are they get to be the big boys in the sandpit.It's really refreshing to me to know that a group of intelligent "Debian forum outsiders" sees that type of behavior the same way that I do. ;) |
| ComputerBob Aug 02, 2010 7:40 AM EDT |
I think it's shame that a very vocal minority of users at the DUF sets the tone and reputation for the whole forum by being openly friendly to hostile people and openly hostile to friendly people, as perfectly illustrated by the thread to which I linked. |
| jdixon Aug 02, 2010 9:30 AM EDT |
> ...a very vocal minority of users at the DUF sets the tone and reputation for the whole forum... If it's any consolation, the Slackware newsgroups had the same problem. I haven't followed them in some time, so I don't know if they still do or not. |
| ComputerBob Aug 02, 2010 12:38 PM EDT |
Quoting:If it's any consolation, the Slackware newsgroups had the same problem...Yeah, thanks -- I feel a lot better now. ;) |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!