Dodging the Point
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| helios Apr 16, 2010 10:24 AM EDT |
Linux is strategically placed at the intersection of a number of major IT trends that will serve to bolster adoption of the open source operating system. With the increasing growth of the mobile web and cloud services, Zemlin thinks Linux will end up the big winner. Again, The Linux Foundation skirts or ignores the real issue. Linux on the Desktop. As it was when Tom King and I talked to him, Zemin sans The Linux Foundation is only interested in growth from the server room, the cloud and devices. Funny thing...IBM echos this as well. It's all about money, I am painfully aware how money or the lack thereof can bring things to a screeching halt, but really? Linux on the desktop isn't even mentioned out of courtesy? hmmmmm... h |
| bigg Apr 16, 2010 10:40 AM EDT |
> It's all about money, I am painfully aware how money or the lack thereof can bring things to a screeching halt, but really? Linux on the desktop isn't even mentioned out of courtesy? That's somewhat misleading, I think (not what you're saying, rather the argument). As others have pointed out many times, doesn't what happens on the desktop have an effect elsewhere? Wouldn't it make it a lot easier to sell Linux for the server, the cloud, or mobile devices if Linux had a big share of the desktop market? I refuse to believe that there's no effect when kids get hooked on Windows as toddlers, and for those who don't, are forced to use Windows the first day of school. Companies use Windows on the desktop because that's what all their workers know and use at home. Most programmers write their first programs on Windows. How could that not make it more difficult to sell Linux elsewhere? |
| hkwint Apr 16, 2010 11:02 AM EDT |
Ken: Do you think we need a 'Desktop Linux Foundation?' |
| gus3 Apr 16, 2010 11:59 AM EDT |
From the Links in the right-hand column: http://www.desktoplinux.com/ |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 16, 2010 12:43 PM EDT |
I guess the server and cloud are "low-hanging fruit." The cloud, being new territory, is a great place for Linux and other open source to grab significant share. As many of you, I hoped that the netbook would be a space dominated by open source. And now we have the tablet ... |
| tracyanne Apr 16, 2010 6:41 PM EDT |
There is only one major company promoting Linux on the Desktop. It's not IBM, or Novel or Red Hat, and Mandriva is rather insignificant. The problem is the more this ompany Markets Linux, the more it pushes for mind share of it's Linux, the more detractors it seems to gaarner in the Open Source Communities. I'm just wondering if we shouldn't help it market Linux, instead of trying to bring it down like the tall Poppy it is. |
| azerthoth Apr 16, 2010 7:03 PM EDT |
tall poppy? |
| gus3 Apr 16, 2010 9:05 PM EDT |
It's that little blossom that appears under most quadrupeds' tails. (I think.) |
| vainrveenr Apr 16, 2010 10:06 PM EDT |
Quoting:I'm just wondering if we shouldn't help it market Linux, instead of trying to bring it down like the tall Poppy it is. Maybe Poppy = Puppy ?? Puppy Linux mainsite http://www.puppylinux.com/ From Puppy creator Barry Kauler's blog entry 'Taking a break' found at http://bkhome.org/blog/?viewDetailed=01518: Quoting:I'll be in Perth, my daughter is coming over from Melbourne. I will also meet up with Ian (real name and forum name) who will be in Perth to see the Red Bull Air Race.Hmmmm..... maybe a new Poppy(Puppy) version uploaded by fellow countryperson Kauler, mid-week this upcoming week?? |
| tuxchick Apr 16, 2010 10:30 PM EDT |
TA is right, or maybe I am jet-lagged from traveling two hours to the big city and am not in my right mind. Canonical is pushing desktop Linux farther and faster than anyone, and the Linux Foundation is doing a bang-up job of bringing businesses on board. There are many things about both that I'm not crazy about, but they are building wide inviting bridges to Linux, and that is a very good thing. |
| tracyanne Apr 16, 2010 11:45 PM EDT |
A Poppy is a flowering plant. Sometimes some grow taller than others, and in doing so stand out from the crowd. I n my country (but not so much now, thankfully), and it would seem the Free Software communities, anyone who acts like a tall poppy, and stands out from the crowd, in ways the crowd (or in this case the Free Software Communities disapprove of - by Marketing themselves to those outside the Communities, for example -, seems to have their head figuratively removed, to bring them back down to the same level as the rest of us. Where I come from it's called Tall Poppy Syndrome. |
| gus3 Apr 17, 2010 1:54 AM EDT |
Gah. Maybe I need new glasses. There's a Russian proverb that says, "The tallest blade of grass is the first one mowed." In the US, it's, "Don't rock the boat." |
| jacog Apr 17, 2010 3:29 AM EDT |
I suggest we all take the poppy analogy, put it in our pipes and smoke it. :) |
| Rob_on Apr 17, 2010 10:46 AM EDT |
"Again, The Linux Foundation skirts or ignores the real issue. Linux on the Desktop. As it was when Tom King and I talked to him, Zemin sans The Linux Foundation is only interested in growth from the server room, the cloud and devices. Funny thing...IBM echos this as well." Funny, Linux has been on the desktop issue or not ...oh god IBM said that !!!?; most don't know about Linux on the desktop because they go by the wrong numbers. Wrong numbers ? If you count retail, well thats the first mistake because Linux nor Linux on the desktop depends on those numbers. Linux need not be mentioned to those that know better, having someone just mention "Linux" means little and does less then what is really going on, the growth of Linux on and off the desktop that both do count !. Sorry, the Linux community does include those liked and not, large and small poor and rich and nothing can be done about that. "Do you think we need a 'Desktop Linux Foundation?" Now that is funny, because Linux on the desktop is a choice, and if you can't make that choice ? shame on you. Have 100 Foundations, when at some point will they bring Linux to the desktop ? because if people are not doing it I can't see how more Foundations will. I read arguments all the time about the 'Linux Foundation', and those arguments are about the job the Foundation is doing running things from their end. Seems ideas run deep and opinions are wide; but my opinion is that having a community do the same set of functions - work the Linux Foundation has done and doing, would never happen if things were handled as I have seen them across forums. To have a voice is important but it too can go too far, too far running those away from Linux because all they know is, what they read. |
| bigg Apr 17, 2010 11:20 AM EDT |
+1 Rob_on |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 17, 2010 12:38 PM EDT |
bigg,Quoting:+1 Rob_onThen I can only conclude you own a Universal Translator, because for such a volume of verbiage and implied audio setting so little comes across clearly. Moreover, it's more than the eccentric punctuation. The whole comment makes me think of khess and his saying "I was just joking ...". Rob_ons's criticisms of some commentators here are unwarranted when by their actions they have accomplished more than his/her/its loud proclamations. They can cite real accomplishments in gaining Linux users that far outshine your and mine opinions. So say what you mean and mean what you say, please, a bit more concisely. YBT |
| bigg Apr 17, 2010 7:42 PM EDT |
I figured I would make myself look smart by pretending to have at least a vague idea of what he was saying. |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 17, 2010 7:55 PM EDT |
bigg, Sorry, I see there is some ambiguity in the last line. It was directed at Rob_on. I promise I will try to be more careful, except when it turns out that I am not. Good enough? YBT |
| Rob_on Apr 17, 2010 8:26 PM EDT |
"Rob_ons's criticisms of some commentators here are unwarranted" No criticisms more like difference of opinion, though if you wish it to be criticisms ? then there is little I can do about that and I'm not trying. As for those "real accomplishments" please share them, as accomplishments "real" or not are too vast to claim in a single statement. I mean for example the red thread on the side of a bandage package was an accomplishment, not beyond allowing people to get to a bandage quicker then before the red thread. So do please be clear or as I asked share, otherwise I can't take that to heart. |
| dinotrac Apr 17, 2010 10:19 PM EDT |
Rob_on -- You wouldn't mean folks like Ken Starks, would you, who has delivered more than 1,000 free Linux computers into the hands of people who could not otherwise have computers? And certainly not our dear Carla -- TC -- who, aside from her nasty habit of editing an "other" Linux site, has also written some very useful Linux books ( Including the Linux Networking Cookbook, on which I have heaped well-earned praise) and -- Goodness!! -- was one of the original Linux Chix, helping other women (and the men in their lives) get a handle on Linux. Even I have played a small role -- providing an example guaranteed to make any new Linux user feel like a guru by comparison. Good for their self-esteem, you know. |
| Rob_on Apr 17, 2010 11:33 PM EDT |
dinotrac I have accomplishments too in the form of many of my hours hands-on and through mail - e-mail to get Linux to people through understanding. I didn't and I don't get paid. Have and continue to provide my knowledge and time to people that are willing to sit and ask questions about Linux in hope that I can help them better understand it and the Linux community. Criticisms ? yes I have for many things as I believe most if not all people have when something is important. I should have a better approach when it comes to my criticisms and I feel the same gos here. Need to note the lack of respect from remarks made about a Universal Translator as maybe that is talking about someone's English, such remarks are out of place and unwarranted too in a world where people may be comming to LXer unknown to those here seeking information and with criticisms that may not be accepted, handled with those remarks does nothing for the Linux community or LXer. I wouldn't want to buy a book or accept a computer from people not knowing who they are from out of those that because they didn't know who I was handled me so bad; as to make any such good work by anyone, worthless. |
| tracyanne Apr 18, 2010 2:43 AM EDT |
Rob_on: What s your native language? |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 18, 2010 6:38 AM EDT |
Quoting:Then I can only conclude you own a Universal Translator, because for such a volume of verbiage and implied audio setting so little comes across clearly. The gist of his post seems to be: Linux is already used on the Desktop. Creating a "Linux Desktop Foundation" will not increase it's usage. And while the Linux Foundation may be focusing on the business end, at least they are doing something instead of bickering in forums. But yeah, Rob_on's posts are hard to read. Ron_on, a small piece of advice for you. Try to make short sentences. English is about short sentences. One of the biggest mistakes that non-english people make is writing long and compound sentences with lots of commas. I sometimes make that mistake as well. |
| dinotrac Apr 18, 2010 8:15 AM EDT |
Rob_on: I'm glad that you help people out. It's good to know and a good rebuttal to those who communicate with you. The Universal Translator stuff probably is a bit disrespectful. That's been known to happen on the internet and, while I don't defend it, what happens on LXer doesn't approach what I see in other places. There is a point to it, however: The advice about short sentences would help a lot. English doesn't read well (at least not by native English-speakers) unless it is broken up a bit. |
| jdixon Apr 18, 2010 8:53 AM EDT |
> in the form of many of my hours hands-on and through mail - e-mail to get Linux to people through understanding. I didn't and I don't get paid Welcome to the club. > I should have a better approach when it comes to my criticisms Only on the IBM thread. The rest of your posts, while difficult to parse, have been quite reasonable. > Need to note the lack of respect from remarks made about a Universal Translator I don't believe that's from a lack of respect. I believe ti's from frustration. Your posts are extremely difficult to read. And your point that a Linux Desktop Foundation might be counterproductive is both valid and insightful. |
| azerthoth Apr 18, 2010 10:47 AM EDT |
Difficult to read is one way to say it, painful is the way I would say it. To the point where I don't, I'm not enough of a masochist to want to fight my way through that morass. |
| Rob_on Apr 18, 2010 11:10 AM EDT |
dinotrac This is sad, that people new to Linux must deal with such things because they are not up to some "standard". What you call long sentences I can say in one breath. So the difference pointed to here is when I write, I don't use breaks very much, rather I write as I talk when talking to others. Pick if you must, but most people I have talked with, don't say "comma !", while talking. And I ask, how do you understand them. And just for a note, I listen to some people talk and hear the word "like", it's said so many times I scratch my head and ask, how many times can the word "like" be used before meaning is lost. I ask myself, if people knowing better when it comes to English usage, how do people understand each other when talking that way. Sad to think that you must deal with people everyday, that are not on the same level, a level that may only allow you to talk to others as yourself. Having to deal with the differences in people is a large part of getting along, as I will guess you don't correct someone when they are someone you respect, regardless of their English usage. Now I don't know about too many other places as you have mentioned, but I seem to know about here well enough. I will just avoid the books and other accomplishments by the names provided, and spend my money with others I do know. Just my nasty reaction, you know I am just so hard to understand as people like me are ? |
| krisum Apr 18, 2010 11:56 AM EDT |
> people new to Linux must deal with such things because they are not up to some "standard". This has nothing to do with Linux rather with written English. If you compare your posts with others', then the lack of paragraphs in your posts will also become apparent. This last post was much better but splitting into paras will be better still. If you will not be able to communicate well then others will hardly take notice of your posts after sometime. So better take the advise of other forum members in the stride. |
| Rob_on Apr 18, 2010 1:00 PM EDT |
krisum "So better take the advise of other forum members in the stride." The fact as I have it, this has nothing to do with English but more to do with that at the start, my criticisms. The English issue is new, compare what was said early on. In the future, I would just look over any post you find hard to understand and/or doesn't meet the standard. You have an answer, "will hardly take notice of your posts"; can't tell you on how many forums that post just sit with no replies. Someone said, "please, a bit more concisely", and the fact is that is just what I did. There is no single paragraph in any post I have made, sorry to read that this throws you. But paragraphs are not for the split of different points; because a single paragraph can have many points within. My "paragraph" is just that, a single point of points. Long sentences, not enough paragraphs; how did you ever learn anything, did you just assume bad English because you didn't understand a new subject after reading it. Because no matter how well written, a point, context may not be understood and that has nothing to do with English. It has to do with something is new to someone. So reading the best English doesn't mean you will get it ! Fact is that I never turned these threads into such as this one is now about, it has been and continues to be those that have made an issue of it. Lets end this here, pass over any post I make you find you don't like, and I'll keep my post independent of others post too. Agreed ? |
| jdixon Apr 18, 2010 9:20 PM EDT |
> ...but most people I have talked with, don't say "comma !", while talking. And I ask, how do you understand them. There are all kinds of non-verbal and verbal cues you pick up on when you talk to a person which are not present in written language. That's why it's so much easier to misinterpret what some one writes than it is when you hear what they say in person. > ...did you just assume bad English because you didn't understand a new subject after reading it. I've been reading English writing for over 45 years now, both good and bad. While you may not like it, that does give me some background for making judgments as to which is which. And it's not like Linux and FOSS is a new subject for us. > So reading the best English doesn't mean you will get it ! True. In fact, the best English writing can convey multiple meanings at the same time, so it can be even harder to "get". But that doesn't mean bad writing makes understanding easier. > ...Lets end this here, pass over any post I make you find you don't like, and I'll keep my post independent of others post too. Agreed ? If you want. But that means you'll be missing out on the best part of the forums. |
| tracyanne Apr 18, 2010 9:39 PM EDT |
@Rob_onQuoting:]What you call long sentences I can say in one breath. So the difference pointed to here is when I write, I don't use breaks very much, rather I write as I talk when talking to others. Pick if you must, but most people I have talked with, don't say "comma !", while talking. So can I. The point is you are not talking, you are writing. Written Engish is very different from Spoken Engish. The breaks, in the form of Commas and Full Stops, are necessary. As is the use of short sentences. Please follow these rules, you will make yourself way more understandable. Please recognise this fact. as It will also reduce misunderstandings, and unnecessary arguments. |
| gus3 Apr 18, 2010 11:31 PM EDT |
Quoting:In fact, the best English writing can convey multiple meanings at the same time, so it can be even harder to "get".The movie Patent Absurdity brings up this very point. Patent applications are written to be as broad as possible. This discourages others' innovation, on the fear that their ideas might infringe on such vaguely-expressed ideas in the patent (even if they don't actually infringe). |
| Rob_on Apr 19, 2010 1:11 AM EDT |
On the mention of the movie Patent Absurdity, I found the following reading of interest. http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1502864 |
| krisum Apr 19, 2010 3:08 AM EDT |
> Long sentences, not enough paragraphs; how did you ever learn anything Now such hyperboles have been the other major problem of many of your posts. The point is lack of readability of your posts, not whether I ever learnt anything. |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 19, 2010 12:59 PM EDT |
Everyone, More to the point how did Rob_on successfully teach newbies anything? The assertion of being helpful* (all without financial compensation) should be suspect on its face. What was his/her/its response when a tyro had problems understanding the explanation? Might the response had been "You are too dumb to use Linux if you are unable to follow my simple, clear instructions!"? I have noticed many here are treating this individual with an excess of cordiality that of uncharacteristic of some. Would this person treat others in the same manner? However, past behaviour here should engender skepticism. Consider if someone new to Linux expressed even mild doubt of this person's opinions. Many self aggrandizers and other malcontents can cite** the time they spent on help sites, but if their output was limited to "RTFM" and other useless drivel those are not to be honored*** for their efforts. That is, time spent does not equal positive accomplishments. * If communication is a problem here, how well could those new to Linux be successfully coached?. ** Not saying this applies to Rob_on, just an example of those that over value their contributions. *** This is NOT a personal attack against Rob_on, my son**** was treated to such answers on the Debian forum. Rob_on's attempts may well have been sincere, however, not recognizing the opaqueness of his/her/its text is not a good sign. Also different individuals require different approaches, requiring explaining the same concept a new way. **** Now he will only use Linux as a server. On the desktop he is an avowed MS Windows fan. P.S. Uncharacteristically this comment should be seen embedded in serious tags unlike my original post. If any readers are looking for a cause of my apparent ill humor on this topic, I had a more polished version partially written for yesterdays' thread that I lost. If so a minute amount rancor might be present. However, I think I am more put off by the obdurate resistance on good suggestions how to write understandable English (U.S. version, of course). English is difficult, I list it as my second language, since i lack a first. Moreover, that difficulty was instrumental in my be thrown out of a university. I find writing very, very difficult. [P.S. continued] Now on to other matters: Rob_on thinks highly his/her/its opinion, however, despite many of us believing all are entitled to an opinion - not all opinions are of equal value. If not firmly based upon fact or verifiable content, they resolve into religious certitudes that tend not to be universal truths. [P.S. continued, again] The question Rob_on asked: Quoting:As for those "real accomplishments" please share them [...]Had that person (Rob_on) lurked on LXer before posting essentially the same opinion repetitively, dino would not have had to name helios. Certainly tracyannes's contributions should have been noted, even though borne as a business sideline, her ability to bring a demographic spurned (scorned might be the better word) by most Linux fans is nothing less than remarkable. Perhaps like too many, counter evidence is to be ignored when one's opinion comes into question. P.P.S. Rob_on, if this is the way you deal with new comers to Linux, then do them and us a favor: stay the Hell away. But don't go away from LXer, just expect to be questioned. That's the scientific method. |
| jdixon Apr 19, 2010 1:33 PM EDT |
> I have noticed many here are treating this individual with an excess of cordiality that of uncharacteristic of some. With the exception of the IBM thread, Rob_on has been comparatively cordial. There's nothing wrong with replying in kind. If you think I'm being overly cordial to him you might want to revisit that thread. :) And there's no reason to assume Rob_on was helping folks in English. He's more likely to have been using his native tongue. I'd assume he's much more fluent in it. |
| Rob_on Apr 19, 2010 2:04 PM EDT |
TxtEdMacs: One thinking highly his/her/its opinion, is a given. Isn't it ? As for the work I do for others for free, helping them with Linux, I don't believe anyone does that for a living. I don't get the point here "lurked on LXer before posting essentially the same opinion repetitively", because why would/should an opinion change every time I post it, if it is, an opinion. Again, I don't get the point "Consider if someone new to Linux expressed even mild doubt of this person's opinions", because I know that most people new to something have an interest, enough to want to learn. So, if my opinion is given without asking for it, say for example, I'm not asked what disrto to use. The logic is someone new to Linux would not doubt it, if early in the learning process. What is difficult to understand is someone that takes an issue based upon another's opinions to heart. To heart to the point you are showing here, that is way off base from where all this started. This started with the issue of my criticisms about some, some in the community and has continued and grown to this point. Last on this post, is about the mention of contributions and accomplishments, return early on this thread, I was not the person to use contributions or accomplishments, as they were used as some basis for retort of my criticisms. My criticisms had nothing to do with any contributions or accomplishments, they have to do with attitudes found in the community. |
| dinotrac Apr 19, 2010 2:17 PM EDT |
Rob_on: FWIW- The paragraph spacing in your last post was sufficient to make it a much easier read. Thanks for that. Nobody expects perfection and nobody gets it. A little help for our poor eyeballs makes all the difference in the world. |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 19, 2010 5:06 PM EDT |
Quoting:More to the point how did Rob_on successfully teach newbies anything? The assertion of being helpful* (all without financial compensation) should be suspect on its face. What was his/her/its response when a tyro had problems understanding the explanation? Might the response had been "You are too dumb to use Linux if you are unable to follow my simple, clear instructions!"? Most likely Rob_on communicated in his own language, not English. |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 19, 2010 5:36 PM EDT |
Rob_on, I second dino; see you could do it. Even I understood your points (with the exception of one paragraph, but that could be me). However, you should read through the thread with fresh eyes and see how resistant you were. I have seen two assertions that you used your native language to help / aid Linux newbies, so without a recording Universal Translator I cannot be certain at the actual rebuttal content. However, should your pattern match what was seen here I still might not have been completely in error. Notice how much slack you are getting here, so do not complain too much about your ill treatment here. But you are allowed to complain loudly about me, just keep the clean* syntax. Thank you, YBT * You can swear as much as you like, but you might have your post obliterated if an editor decides you have gone too far over the line pertaining to LXer's TOS**. ** Terms of service. |
| hkwint Apr 19, 2010 6:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:Have 100 Foundations, when at some point will they bring Linux to the desktop ? because if people are not doing it I can't see how more Foundations will. How about this: $100 million put in adds for Motorola Droid, 1.05 million Droids sold in 74 days. "What does that have to do with a foundation?" you might ask. After all these are companies. Not a community of individual members making a choice when they buy a PC in the store. From practice however, it turns out foundations / alliances of companies are powerful when it comes to pushing products. More powerful than a tiny bucket full of consumers 'demanding' the very same products. In the words of Microsoft: "There's a difference between satisfying demand and creating demand'. What Dell is doing, is satisfying demand. It's "selling products which they didn't want to sell in first place". Selling with dislike. What Verizon and Motorola are doing, is creating demand. Obviously they like Android and the Linux kernel, otherwise they wouldn't have decided to create demand. Satisfying demand is reactive. Creating demand is pro-active. That's the difference. Motorola and Google are part of the Open Handset Alliance. http://www.openhandsetalliance.com/oha_members.html And in my opinion, the Open Handset Alliance is what makes Linux kernel on mobile devices successful. Pretty much in the same way OpenGL ES 2 will be successful because of Khronos-members: http://www.khronos.org/members/promoters So, look at the Linux Foundation members: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/about/members And what do you see? About the same companies. So, what do we have: -Khronos: Group of companies pushing OpenGL ES, -Open Handset Alliance: Group of companies pushing Android, -Linux Foundation: Group of companies pushing Linux And what might we miss? I'd say: A 'separate' group of companies pushing Linux for the desktop. |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 19, 2010 8:05 PM EDT |
Hans, It will NEVER work, but i will let Rob_on cogently explain it to you. As always, YBT [For newbies to LXer forums: ak[a] You Buddy Txt.] [Edit: See edit between extra set of brackets, now this make sense and the string of postings that follow. I wondered what set that off.] |
| Rob_on Apr 19, 2010 9:21 PM EDT |
ROFLMAO: This whole thread now cannot be taken to heart; so beat that drum all you want, it doesn't matter to me because it has gone on too long now. Too long because this English tin coin rubbed faceless, offers nothing of interest; so please try something that has enough meaning I may just pay real attention to, other then to continue this. Taking attention away from the point of a thread and giving it all to me, well I don't know what to say. Saying anything though is asking for more attention, and I would like to get back with people that have their attention on more then just me. If you have a problem understanding my English, I see no reason to reply do you ? |
| tracyanne Apr 19, 2010 9:43 PM EDT |
I have no trouble understanding you ..... now. |
| jdixon Apr 19, 2010 10:31 PM EDT |
> ... offers nothing of interest; so please try something that has enough meaning I may just pay real attention to, As I already said, if you want. If communicating your ideas to others and getting theirs back really isn't important to you, then that's the way it is. Though I have no idea why you bother posting here in that case. > ... and I would like to get back with people that have their attention on more then just me. Believe me, with that attitude, paying attention to you won't be high on my priority list. |
| Rob_on Apr 19, 2010 10:59 PM EDT |
jdixon: not > ... "offers nothing of interest; so please try something that has enough meaning I may just pay real attention to," whole>..."Too long because this English tin coin rubbed faceless, offers nothing of interest; so please try something that has enough meaning I may just pay real attention to, other then to continue this." and not > ... "and I would like to get back with people that have their attention on more then just me." whole>..."Saying anything though is asking for more attention, and I would like to get back with people that have their attention on more then just me." I believe good quotes are just as important as English when it comes to understanding. |
| azerthoth Apr 19, 2010 11:44 PM EDT |
Quoting:Too long because this English tin coin rubbed faceless in context or out of context is a meaningless statement. when your grasp of written english is as firm as yours seems to be, you shouldn't try for prose. |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 12:30 AM EDT |
azerthoth: Try again; the "statement" is a metaphor; something worthless held as valuable and worn. Seems understanding of English is not being far from a source, like a book I'm guessing. Its meaningless because it's not understood; but that is subjective, isn't it ? Set in stone English is not, need to go beyond the limits of the textbooks world, and dare your mind, really. Otherwise, find something better that makes a point, and some thinking went into it. |
| tuxchick Apr 20, 2010 12:36 AM EDT |
Yoda, on topic you might try being. |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 12:43 AM EDT |
tuxchick: Ah, make others too, understand you will ? |
| gus3 Apr 20, 2010 1:32 AM EDT |
And with adjusted commas, "I make others to understand you, Will." The vagaries of English. |
| jdixon Apr 20, 2010 6:56 AM EDT |
> I believe good quotes are just as important as English when it comes to understanding. Yes, which is why I cut extraneous material and only quote what I'm replying to. Of course, you probably don't care if you waste a readers time or not. > ts meaningless because it's not understood; but that is subjective, isn't it ? Whether something is understood or not is not subjective. > ...need to go beyond the limits of the textbooks world, and dare your mind, really. And now you think you're qualified to teach us the proper use of English. Yeah, right. |
| jacog Apr 20, 2010 8:16 AM EDT |
Somebody set up us the bomb! |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 8:36 AM EDT |
"Whether something is understood or not is not subjective." Sad, that knowledge must be a limit on thinking and understanding. So, yeah, right. Just thought I would offer this, you look it up for yourself. "pertaining to or characteristic of an individual; personal; individual: a subjective evaluation. " Now the last part above you see, is only an example of usage and not the only usage. So while I have no idea what 'subjective' means to you, I know what it means in the way I used it. "And now you think you're qualified to teach us the proper use of English. Yeah, right." No; FYI, I was talking to you only. Now tell me, "us"; are you saying all/most are tied at the hip only when I say something ? |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 20, 2010 8:38 AM EDT |
Quoting:Somebody set up us the bomb!Now that's the epitome of writing clarity that makes a concise, pointed impact upon readers of all persuasions. It should go into a text book of Language. YBT P.S. jacog, could you please send me a private message explaining it to me? I got lost towards the end. But it had a remarkable impact. You could phone if you like, I am keeping a portable satellite unit here under the bed while I wait your call. |
| jdixon Apr 20, 2010 9:03 AM EDT |
> So while I have no idea what 'subjective' means to you, I know what it means in the way I used it. No, you don't. Either that or you're deliberately misusing it. I'm not sure which, but I don't really care either. > No; FYI, I was talking to you only. Well, I wasn't talking to you, but rather about you. And again, I don't really care what you think about the matter. I was granting Rob_on the courtesy of assuming English wasn't his native language, but I'm no longer certain he deserves that courtesy. His abuse and misuse of the language and frequent latching onto form over substance is so uniform and functional that it almost strikes me as the type of project a sophomore psych student would come up with to analyze Internet forum behavior. In any case, I'm tired of playing his games. I'll do my best to ignore the troll in the future. That's not a term I like to use, but I'm convinced it applies in this case. |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 9:13 AM EDT |
To everyone, I asked in another reply I made to end this, but no matter if I reply or not, this thread will go on it's own without me. I find it hard to believe that people think this is important enough to keep it alive. When a simple end to it can be, to continue with the topic and keep me out of it. Sad to know that people that claim contributions and/or accomplishments are here to do nothing more then this. You can pick that I am included in my last statement above; so the question is, who's level are we on ? Level because now I just got a bit of info about 'private message(s)', this is most telling, as I have been thinking and asking how could so many be on the same page and agree to the point you all do. |
| tuxchick Apr 20, 2010 9:57 AM EDT |
Yoda, someday a point you could have. (Hey, I can dream) TxtEdMacs, you have led a sheltered life! It is from an interestingly-translated introduction to a game, Zero Wing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 10:01 AM EDT |
jdixon: tired of playing games so why not just stop ? "I'll do my best to ignore the troll in the future.", how about before your last post ? I undrestand troll alright, I am the kid on the block that noone knows or likes. This is a playground and you don't want me here. I have been reading LXer for years, fine selection of stories and very good reading most of the time. So it is sad to find that the fence around this forum playground only serves so few that control it and offer nothing in the way of any content. I have yet to talk to or even read someone that quotes the LXer's forum folks; seems there is not much reason to, seeing little is comming from this forum of any value. The attraction to post here is limited, I see the names count here proves that. I can guess many others have had to put up with what is, nothing more than trashy writing in the form of replies claimed as being something worth reading; they avoid it. Need a big big trash bag, put all the trashy content into it and throw it. jdixon, goodbye. |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 10:10 AM EDT |
tuxchick: Really ? Goodbye. |
| tuxchick Apr 20, 2010 10:17 AM EDT |
You keep saying good-bye. It's not nice to get people's hopes up with fake promises. |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 10:20 AM EDT |
tuxchick: Give people what they may never have. Its a dream tuxchick, just like my making a point, right ? |
| azerthoth Apr 20, 2010 10:32 AM EDT |
methinks "I'm not posting anymore" must mean something other than what he thinks it does ... yes I'm mocking you. |
| gus3 Apr 20, 2010 10:34 AM EDT |
Inconceivable! |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 10:40 AM EDT |
azerthoth: Here we are again, mock away. I love the hand-off trick done here. You are burning up those private messages ? "methinks "I'm not posting anymore" must mean something other than what he thinks it does". So my saying goodbye was mistaken for "I'm not posting anymore" ? Did tuxchick's dream end ? |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 10:47 AM EDT |
gus3: Oh try now. |
| bigg Apr 20, 2010 10:56 AM EDT |
For some reason I can hear Beavis and Butthead laughter when I read this thread. |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 10:58 AM EDT |
bigg: Agreed, I loved that show. |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 11:06 AM EDT |
Bye-bye ! |
| hkwint Apr 20, 2010 11:58 AM EDT |
Quoting:So it is sad to find that the fence around this forum playground only serves so few that control it You're in a position to do something about it! Quoting:Taking attention away from the point of a thread and giving it all to me, well I don't know what to say. Just ignore it, and continue discussing the topic. Like I did in my reply above (the one about Khronos, Open Handset Alliance etc.) You didn't react to that one, instead you chose to react to the of-topic comments. Don't let other people distract you, don't mind the little bullying children in the sandbox. If you want to discuss the topic, which I think is generally a good idea, it's up to you (and me and everybody else who agrees) to do so. |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 20, 2010 12:15 PM EDT |
hkwint, Good advice. Now are you going to tell him I sent you the text to post in a background, private message? tc, Thanks, but I think I like my own version better. Now I know why I will never be a gamer. YBT |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 2:44 PM EDT |
hkwint: Sorry I didn't get back with you before now. And you are right, I went right over you on that post. Your advice is well taken, and thank you. To get back with your earlier post, I read on two of the links you provided, khronos.org and the linuxfoundation.org already. And on that note, I have always agreed with such relationships built, as the Open Handset Alliance, because it is important to the future of the contributions made to such open source developments, and the support that such alliances provide on both sides of the relationship. Support, people are looking for in these areas of technologies, they don't always understand, providers of these technologies as Handsets, are not all training tech and/or managers to handle open source at the retail level. The lack of information at the retail point of sale, I feel I can say will/does back-away some non-tech people, mostly as I find, those who feel they are more "up on" Microsoft for example. I have a funny story, went to a large tech retailer, asked about the phone from Google; the sales staff person didn't know what I was talking about. So, I understand that someone walking into the same retailer, a non-tech person, after they have read/other about the phone from Google lets say, and maybe get lost because they get the same when asking about the same phone. The future is looking better as more people learn about Linux and the community that support it, and the projects of software developemnt as a whole. |
| dinotrac Apr 20, 2010 3:19 PM EDT |
Quoting: The future is looking better as more people learn about Linux and the community that support it, and the projects of software developemnt as a whole. Rob_on -- I think some kind of coordinated effort to nudge the desktop along in a coordinated way would help, just as it has helped for servers and handsets, but...ultimately, Microsoft's (and Apple's) biggest advantage are the network effects it enjoys. As you point out, retail stores carry Windows software and the people who work in big boxes are much more likely to know and push Windows software. Ditto for the Apple Geniuses at Apple stores. A new user considering Linux isn't going to find the same kind of support and reinforcement system without looking for it. |
| Rob_on Apr 20, 2010 11:39 PM EDT |
"I think some kind of coordinated effort to nudge the desktop along in a coordinated way would help, just as it has helped for servers and handsets, but...ultimately, Microsoft's (and Apple's) biggest advantage are the network effects it enjoys." dinotrac: I believe OEMs don't view Linux as part of the marketing, of their hardware to consumers. I believe that because people, not enough anyway, just walk into retail and ask for Linux by name. I say that because having talked to people about Linux, most have been quick to mention that they just don't see Linux where they see/buy computers. Most retail sales staff have little if any knowlege to offer about Linux, even know what it is in some cases I have found. I agree with you, on a coordinated effort to nudge the desktop along in a coordinated way; however I can't believe it would work without more OEMs with Linux boxes on retail display, and people become aware of Linux seeing it in the market where they shop. True, that mags and even on the internet people can find OEMs that offer Linux as DELL; but I believe the MS networking you mentioned, allows people to interact with new Windows boxes and few if any Linux ones where consumers buy. People like to see and interact with what they will use, and buy more when things are available to do so. I know as a consumer that seeing and interacting with something makes an easy choice to try something new too. The "trick" I see will come down to relationships as well, relationships with the people that will use Linux not using it now; not too unlike those relationships with Handsets makers etc. |
| Sander_Marechal Apr 21, 2010 2:32 AM EDT |
Quoting:Most retail sales staff have little if any knowledge to offer about Linux, even know what it is in some cases I have found. Most retail staff that I have talked to have little to no computer knowledge at all. They're just generic sales drones. They can't answer any question that you can't answer yourself by reading the box. The very few shops that do have knowledgeable and technically inclined staff are also the shops that sell Linux. They may not have it on display, but they will sell you a computer with your choice of Linux distro installed (and make sure the hardware works). |
| hkwint Apr 21, 2010 7:23 PM EDT |
Rob_on: Of course the lack of a Linux 'showcase' corner in MediaMarkt / TESCO / Carrefour / Wal- or K-Markt (or whatever it is where you live) is a problem too. It would be great if it had its own corner in such shops, where people can ask questions and see live product demo's. It's the path Apple went. And I'm pretty sure Apple did some research before they left their "Apple store only" adagio. After that research they made their own "Apple-corners" in stores like MediaMarkt, I believe. Now, you could make a booth with some volunteers in front of the store showcasing Linux. But only few people would volunteer to do so. The only reason lots of people would do so is if they were paid. I'd say some 'corporate Linux desktop alliance' would be the right body to so. But it seems at this moment, they don't think "creating Linux-desktop demand" is the right thing to do. The problem here is Microsoft forbids them to create Linux demand (we're pretty sure this happened at Dell), but we can't proof it to the EC. Motorola, Google and Verizon on the other hand, they're not dependent on the prices Microsoft charges them for Windows. So they're in the position to create demand. As long as Dell, Acer, HP and such don't have a market share above 40%, they can't be fined (by the EC) for abusing their market share, unless they have a secret 'cartel'. So that's the problem: Microsoft can forbid them to create Linux demand, and as long as those 'contracts' remain secret there's nothing the EC (or other authorities) can do. |
| azerthoth Apr 21, 2010 8:10 PM EDT |
astounding, no big players have decided to push it into boxmarts because the boxmarts havent asked for it. The boxmarts havent asked for it because the players arent supplying it ... and you guys are arguing the points as if one of the two should naturally be doing it. On one hand we have the circular logic and in the other, linux users with a stick merrily whacking the wheel along. whaa whaa whaa whaa So what does it take to get zareason or some other firm into boxmart? Why expect the entrenched to make the push from a known profitable strategy, give boxmart a way to see atleast a one shot profit from carrying product from yet another from a myriad of suppliers. wow |
| jdixon Apr 21, 2010 8:41 PM EDT |
> So what does it take to get zareason or some other firm into boxmart? Enough cash flow/profit to buy their way in. Floor space at a big merchandiser costs money. It gives you enough visibility that you can easily make it back (if your product is popular enough), but you've got to have the money first. |
| azerthoth Apr 21, 2010 8:46 PM EDT |
jd since when do you rent floorspace in boxmart? |
| Rob_on Apr 21, 2010 10:32 PM EDT |
azerthoth I think, the boxmarts are where the mass public go to buy, regardless, knowing about Linux or not. Thats where they buy. Most of such buyers, they have little/no contact with Linux, and really don't think about it, as we do. I can say Linux doesn't need the boxmarts, but that gos with the fact I already use Linux. For those with the only choices that are on display, I see the boxmarts as only a good place to start to reach more people. As for a starting point if asked, I will tell you OEMs need to be first, inside and outside the boxmarts with Linux. More people would take more notice, if Linux was found on more OEM's boxes. Boxes available for interaction, that are found in those common places people shop and buy computers. OEMs will respond when people are using Linux through computer sales, sales because of Linux. Those people over just the past five years, started using Linux as I believe, did so through contact and interacting with it. I know I did some years ago without going the boxmart way. Because, few then, were offering Linux anywhere other then well known Linux sources. |
| jdixon Apr 22, 2010 12:29 AM EDT |
> jd since when do you rent floorspace in boxmart? You don't rent space, but unless you're an established vendor, you usually have to pay them an upfront fee of some type to put your items on their shelves. At least that's what I've always been told. |
| azerthoth Apr 22, 2010 10:31 AM EDT |
@Rob_on, OEMs first is just perpetuating the circular logic. As I mentioned earlier, looking at it as an either/or is like a kid with a stick rolling the wheel down the road. You just whacked the wheel another time. @jd, it's a little more complex than bribery but also a little more legal. |
| jdixon Apr 22, 2010 2:15 PM EDT |
> it's a little more complex than bribery but also a little more legal. You'll notice I carefully avoided using that word. :) |
| gus3 Apr 22, 2010 3:05 PM EDT |
I wouldn't go that far. Shelf space is zero-sum; one product's shelf space can't be another's. Putting a product with "less than stellar" demand involves risk for a retailer; a payment to that retailer reduces the risk. |
| Rob_on Apr 22, 2010 3:21 PM EDT |
@azerthoth Is there another choice, as maybe buying a boxcar load of computers and mass install Linux on all of them. What then is done with them. Is it to open a roadside tailgate store in the summer, selling cold iced-tea as an attraction. Or maybe, setup yet another website store, so people that have no idea what a "Linux" is, can search and find it. As for the OEMs, can kiss me on the darkside, and be done with it. I don't care about them. I see though on second thought, I am not making these computers that, people are buying. I believe that is important. Maybe an approach like an OEM could work; that is if I could get the help to have such (no namebrand) computers made to put what I want on them. Yet again I don't like the roadside tailgate store in the summer idea, from the fact that, when most people like to shop in the AC, of a store well stocked, and being able to interact, with almost everything. This is not just my idea(s); it's a fact. Bribery not included: When thinking about it, all the logic adds up to sh*t. Because I just can't seem to nail how a tiny kernel that has grown to this point, growth that has anything that ties-up with logic. Wait, that picture just painted, has to do with the facts of the past, when the tiny kernel, was in the shadows of the many tall trees then. I can't see a great kernel as Linux didn't move along as a whacked wheel a few times in it's climb. Starting points play an important role, no matter how bad they seem to be at first. |
| azerthoth Apr 22, 2010 4:02 PM EDT |
The whacked wheel analogy is the circular logic of OEM must provide before boxmart supplies / boxmart must demand before OEM provides. Keep whacking, but your stuck in that loop. |
| jdixon Apr 22, 2010 5:03 PM EDT |
> Shelf space is zero-sum; one product's shelf space can't be another's. Putting a product with "less than stellar" demand involves risk for a retailer; a payment to that retailer reduces the risk. Exactly. Walmart knows how many Dell's, HP's, and Acer's they can sell each month. You're a complete unknown. If you want shelf space, you have to pay Walmart what they'll lose by giving up the space for the Dell/HP/Acer machine up front. Once you have a proven track record of sales, they'll drop that requirement. |
| hkwint Apr 22, 2010 5:29 PM EDT |
AZ: Maybe read Wikipedia next time before making comments? "In 2003 Saturn and Apple Inc. signed a contract for a "store-in-store" concept, allowing consumers to purchase Apple products in special sections of some branch stores." Quoting:Why expect the entrenched to make the push from a known profitable strategy Don't ask me, ask Motorola and Verizon why they invested $100M. |
| Rob_on Apr 22, 2010 6:02 PM EDT |
"whacked wheel analogy" @ azerthoth At this point I would just love to know what it is now you're getting at for sure, as only now I can make a good guess. My guess is that retail (boxmarts), are yet another to be forbidden any favor ? Your understanding of my point, has me scratch the side of my head, because I know that retailers (boxmarts), put on the shelves WHATEVER the OEMs are paying them to do so ! Regardless, or your logic it seems, would have a nasty kickback I believe. The "pay shelves" is also common where you buy food too, it has been around for many years; so says nothing to your fig of logic, whacked wheel analogy. |
| Rob_on Apr 22, 2010 6:05 PM EDT |
@jdixon Apr 22, 2010 4:03 PM EST Yes, I couldn't agree more with the truth ! I wish I had added it to my reply before this one. |
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