There is no sexism in the Linux community. None at all...
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| caitlyn Apr 10, 2010 5:10 PM EDT |
This has to be my favorite comment on the Ubuntu article so far:Quoting:By Howe on April 10, 2010 1:24 PM | Reply A couple of guys have basically handed him his head over this one, which is good to see. Having said that, I am reminded of those who insist that there is no sexism in the Linux community. Nope, there's none at all. Uh huh... Writing a one paragraph summary of my resume was kind of fun too, considering what he said about my supposed lack of background in development. I didn't mention Yarok at all. I'll save that for the public announcement, probably in June :) |
| jhansonxi Apr 10, 2010 5:18 PM EDT |
"A couple of guys have basically handed him his head over this on" What makes you think Howe is male? Trolling is an equal-opportunity sport. |
| caitlyn Apr 10, 2010 5:50 PM EDT |
Oh, I don't know. I've never seen a woman write a comment like that. I suppose, thought, that it is just possible he's a woman named Steve. Just maybe... Nah! |
| ComputerBob Apr 10, 2010 6:01 PM EDT |
Since "the Linux community" is a tiny subset of many, much-larger communities, I'm not surprised that it contains the same sexism as its supersets. |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 10, 2010 7:08 PM EDT |
Is there sexism in technology, software, open source and Linux? Yes. But something else lurks in that negative comment: developer-centrism. If open-source wants any real uptake, it needs to stop treating non-developers as non-entities. I'm also a reporter, and I don't claim to know more or less than anybody else. Say what you will about Ubuntu and button-placement, but whatever you think of recent Ubuntu decisions, they appear to be made, if not with users or potential users in mind, but not designed to wholly please the development and fanboy communities. As a community or communities, open source should be welcoming to all - women, non-developers and even know-little/nothing, non-coding journalists like myself. The fact that I don't write in C doesn't mean I can't be pissed when upstream decides that entire swaths of hardware don't need working video and every project that depends on that upstream code just goes along with it ... but that's just me, non-developing journalist that I am ... |
| caitlyn Apr 10, 2010 7:16 PM EDT |
Well, Steve, I'm waist deep (or maybe up to my neck) in specialty distro development right now and I agree with you. Of course, when I say it loudly and publicly I get my head handed to me. If I criticize a favorite distro I might as well be the devil's spawn. Oh well... I still think there is more sexism in the Linux/FOSS community than it IT at large, and more in IT than in society at large. |
| Steven_Rosenber Apr 10, 2010 7:24 PM EDT |
I'm ready to learn packaging, too. ... one of the reason I wanted to get back into Ubuntu was the whole PPA phenomenon, which I'd like to explore. |
| tuxchick Apr 10, 2010 7:51 PM EDT |
Barefoot, pregnant, and properly submissive...Caitlyn Martin...I felt something snap inside my brain when I tried to put those together. Steven is right about developer-centrism. It's annoying and counter-productive. |
| gus3 Apr 10, 2010 8:05 PM EDT |
Quoting:Steven is right about developer-centrism. It's annoying and counter-productive.Someone might want to tell Steve "Developers! Developers! Developers!" Ballmer. |
| TxtEdMacs Apr 10, 2010 8:08 PM EDT |
caitlyn, [serious] Quoting:I still think there is more sexism in the Linux/FOSS community than it IT at large, and more in IT than in society at large.Maybe. However, I think banging keys while being obnoxious is much easier when done with near anonymity being assured. When combined with low probability of meeting the target just assures an increase the bluster level. Thus, there may not be as great a difference as you infer, because physical presence could invite retaliation, hence, when courage is lacking many opt to be more socially correct but harbor similar feelings. [/serious] YBT |
| tracyanne Apr 11, 2010 1:41 AM EDT |
Quoting:If open-source wants any real uptake, it needs to stop treating non-developers as non-entities. My complaint. too, (while it's true I'm a developer, I've never developed anything for Linux, which makes me a Linux user, not a Linux developer), The if you are not a developer rhetoric, your opinion is invalid, argument was trotted out by several people I "conversed " with over KDE's direction, way beck when 4.0 was released. |
| gus3 Apr 11, 2010 2:08 AM EDT |
The "providers" need to stop thinking they know what's best for the "receivers," across all lines. Perhaps it's time for a good-ol' barn-burning rant along this vein. |
| theBeez Apr 11, 2010 5:10 AM EDT |
I think people have a point when they complain when they have something that does not work. That is not equal to a (legal) right, true, but you're a lousy developer - not to say a lousy community leader - when you leave that be. Note a bug does not equal a feature enhancement - that is quite another issue. I think that when FOSS can only grow up when it starts taking its users seriously. If you're not doing it for them, for whom are you doing it? For yourself? Why publish it in the first place? This "I'm a developer, I'm coding, I'm great" attitude show itself particularly in the documentation area. In some cases you could ask the question, what documentation? And then we come back to the women: if you can't code, document! There is nothing wrong with documentation. I did it several times for some project I held valuable. And do we really have to go into this "sexism" issue again, this "Hi guys" - "Oh, the depths of my soul are irretrievably torn apart for eternity" thing? |
| jacog Apr 11, 2010 5:35 AM EDT |
theBeez - Actually read the quote before you comment. It's not the "hi GUYS" = "offended!" thing at all. Did you get stood up at the prom or something? |
| theBeez Apr 11, 2010 10:14 AM EDT |
@jacog
Yes I have. Have you read the title of this thread?
"There is no sexism in the Linux community. None at all..."
Comprende? BTW, there is no prom tradition in Holland. We make out where we park our bikes. |
| dinotrac Apr 11, 2010 10:31 AM EDT |
Steve and Caitlyn and CB -- This one is a tough call. So developer-arrogant-asshole and so freakin' sexist. I'm going to give a tilt to the sexism, because even the boneheaded developer-asshole angle seems to be driven by lonely boner sexism. What a moron. If this guy donates his brain to science, it's going to a veterinary school. That said, it is a good idea to keep up with the laundry. |
| caitlyn Apr 11, 2010 1:07 PM EDT |
@theBeez: I should have know you'd turn up with your claim that there really is no sexism. Read the quote again about how women (and me specifically) should be home taking care of the family and staying away from writing about Linux. That's classic sexism. I can't help it if you're in denial or have a compelling need to defend sexist men. That's your problem. Then we have this wonderful comment: Quoting:And now we have a revelation from a clueless chick, that "Ubuntu' or whatever, has no standards.. I will be writing about sexism in the Linux community, in FOSS and in IT in general whenever we have another egregious example. I may even use you as an example of part of the problem. I won't shut up or go away. |
| theBeez Apr 11, 2010 2:56 PM EDT |
@caitlyn (1) Show me where I claimed there is no sexism in FOSS. Everything is online. C'mon..! Back it up! (2) Show me where I agreed to the expression that guy gave. In any way or form. Jerks are everywhere. You just give 'em more airtime this way. (3) Try using me as an example. You may not like me, but I'm a bad example to your cause. (4) I won't shut up, neither I'll go away. |
| gus3 Apr 11, 2010 3:25 PM EDT |
Beez, every time she (or any woman) points out an obvious sexist pig, there you are trying to claim "oh it isn't that bad, get over yourself." Actually, this is what you said, in this very thread:Quoting:And do we really have to go into this "sexism" issue again, this "Hi guys" - "Oh, the depths of my soul are irretrievably torn apart for eternity" thing?In light of the pertinent quote, your point #1 is satisfied. Agreement is immaterial, and your point #2 is moot (pathetic attempt at distraction). The proper concern is your defense of the indefensible, which makes point #3 satisfied by definition. Like an enabler for an addict in a dysfunctional relationship, your consistent denials have become embarrassingly predictable in this regard. As for point #4, neither you nor I have the final say on it. That's explained in paragraph 10 of the TOS. |
| caitlyn Apr 11, 2010 4:09 PM EDT |
@gus3: I'd have written a response to Hans but you've done it so well there simply is no need. Thank you! @theBeez: Hans, using you as an example is easy. I would just quote you verbatim. As Gus pointed out your words do speak for themselves. |
| Alcibiades Apr 11, 2010 4:36 PM EDT |
I don't know about the sexism, but its a pretty decent article and very true. |
| theBeez Apr 11, 2010 4:45 PM EDT |
@gus3 (1) It just says, we've covered this issue before - not that there is no sexism. (2) It just shows how pathetic the reasoning of my opponents is. Is there any reasoning? Conjecture, your honor! Leading he witness. immaterial. |
| gus3 Apr 11, 2010 5:18 PM EDT |
Yeah, I knew it. I pity any woman in your life. Well, up to a point. |
| theBeez Apr 11, 2010 5:47 PM EDT |
@gus3 I think I can ask her to do the talking for herself.. If you prefer. That would point out how ridiculous your abusive and offensive allegations are. Not to speak of the threats that are made to my very person. |
| jdixon Apr 11, 2010 6:21 PM EDT |
> Not to speak of the threats that are made to my very person. While there may have been, I'm not aware of any which took place in these fora, and I have followed the threads. Hans is right about one thing though, we've covered this before, and it's unlikely that anyone will change their minds. As for me, I'm largely in agreement with ComputerBob. |
| gus3 Apr 11, 2010 6:24 PM EDT |
After spewing such bile earlier, now you have the raw chutzpah to be offended? "Abusive"? "Offensive"? Yet you defend comments that are abusive and offensive, and you say "they're not that bad." Let me point out what you're defending: Quoting:Honestly, you should be at home taking care of your children and doing the laundry. If your children can stad you.You won't call that "offensive and abusive" when it's directed at caitlyn personally, but when I point out the logical consequences of your attitude toward such blatant sexism, now suddenly you shed your tears of faux-victimhood. The first rule of holes: When you find yourself in one, stop digging. And your hole is deep, indeed. |
| theBeez Apr 11, 2010 6:36 PM EDT |
@gus3
Where am I defending that? Where? Where do I make that chuckle and say: "Yeah, that's put the right way. Take that". I clearly said "Jerks are everywhere. You just give 'em more airtime this way." On the other hand, I see: "I will be writing about sexism in the Linux community, (..) I may even use you as an example of part of the problem." "That's explained in paragraph 10 of the TOS." (so eager to get me kicked?) "I can't help it if you're in denial or have a compelling need to defend sexist men." "I pity any woman in your life." If this is an example of the righteous at heart in FOSS, sexism is a minor problem. Because some people obviously lack not only courtesy, honesty and the ability to have a proper discussion, but also have a serious ethics deficiency. |
| azerthoth Apr 11, 2010 7:17 PM EDT |
/me starts taking notes. You never know when they will start looking for ideas for more monty python. *note* if you think I might be talking about you with that, your probably right. *wanders off whistling lighter side of life* |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 11, 2010 7:30 PM EDT |
One finds sexism when one looks for it. Just like racism. Ignore the insensitive lout, whoever it is, and move on. |
| ComputerBob Apr 11, 2010 8:40 PM EDT |
Working from the presumptions that: 1. Caitlyn's name is pretty well-known in geek circles. 2. Caitlyn's willingness to point out the sexism that she encounters is pretty well-known in geek circles. 3. Every online community has at least a member or two who likes to "act" like an incredibly clueless, insensitive jerk, as some sort of "joke" that only they find funny. I SUSPECT that it's very possible that "Howe" is one of those people (AKA troll), and he posted blatantly, ridiculously sexist remarks in the comments at the end of Caitlyn's article as "a joke" to pull Caitlyn's chain, knowing that she would probably take the bait and give his "joke" a lot more attention. Which she did. In fact, we all did. And now "Howe" -- a sad and lonely, socially disadvantaged, deeply narcissitic and extremely manipulative personality, thinks he has proven that he is more intelligent than all of us are, and is having a good laugh at our expense, the same way that blackhat guys get a kick out of reading newspaper stories that describe the damage and chaos that their exploits create. |
| jdixon Apr 11, 2010 8:46 PM EDT |
> One finds sexism when one looks for it. True, but it also sometimes finds you, whether you're looking for it or not. > Ignore the insensitive lout, whoever it is, and move on. While often true, some problems don't get better if ignored. And in this case, highlighting that there is a problem is one of the steps in resolving it. |
| Bob_Robertson Apr 11, 2010 9:09 PM EDT |
> some problems don't get better if ignored. I didn't mean it quite like that. I meant, ignore the _individual_. Put them on the crap-list and let them fall into the void. I'm with ComBob, someone wanted some attention. |
| jdixon Apr 11, 2010 9:22 PM EDT |
> I meant, ignore the _individual_. Well, I took that as a given. :) > ...someone wanted some attention. Entirely possible, but it's unlikely we'll ever know for sure. |
| gus3 Apr 11, 2010 10:16 PM EDT |
Quoting:True, but it also sometimes finds you, whether you're looking for it or not.And, sometimes it shows up on a silver platter. Quoting:> ...someone wanted some attention.I like the terms at the bottom of the User Friendly discussion pages: "UserFriendly.Org and its operators are not liable for comments or content posted by its visitors, and will cheerfully assist the lawful authorities in hunting down script-kiddies, spammers and other net scum. And if you're really bad, we'll call your mom. (We're not kidding, we've done it before.)" I suppose that's one way to find out. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!