Dell bars Win 7 refunds from Linux lovers
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| henke54 Mar 18, 2010 10:36 AM EDT |
Quoting:Dell has told a Linux-loving Reg reader that he can't receive a refund on the copy of Windows 7 that shipped with his new Dell netbook because it was bundled with the machine for "free". ....................................................................................... Asked about refunds for rejected copies of Windows 7, Dell tells us that despite the $115 success of Reg reader Graeme Cobbett, the company policy is that it will only accept returns for the entire system. "We consider the OS part of the base config, like and other key components (e.g. processor, memory, etc.)," the company says.http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/03/18/dell_windows_7_free/ |
| hkwint Mar 18, 2010 2:49 PM EDT |
This can only lead to one conclusion: Where at Dell can we apply for our free OEM licenses of Windows 7? |
| dinotrac Mar 18, 2010 4:54 PM EDT |
Han -- Not a problem. All you have to pay for the medium, which is, um, a Dell computer. |
| tuxchick Mar 18, 2010 5:24 PM EDT |
I was laughing at what dino said, and then I realized that is probably their policy. |
| dinotrac Mar 18, 2010 5:42 PM EDT |
Probably? |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 18, 2010 6:59 PM EDT |
The last two laptops I bought came with the same statement in the End User License Agreement: No separate refunds for software. The system is sold as a package, and can only be returned as a package. So I don't bother. I didn't buy it for the software anyway, I decided that the price for the hardware alone was sufficient. |
| gus3 Mar 18, 2010 8:16 PM EDT |
Was the EULA available in print, or did you have to read it on the screen? |
| jdixon Mar 18, 2010 10:03 PM EDT |
> Was the EULA available in print, or did you have to read it on the screen? Equally important, whose EULA was it? Hopefully the laptop manufacturer's and not Microsoft's. |
| gus3 Mar 18, 2010 10:47 PM EDT |
@jdixon: Does it really matter? It'd be binding, either way. Well, as binding as you'd let it be. |
| jdixon Mar 18, 2010 10:50 PM EDT |
> Does it really matter? Based on previous actions, I'd expect the DOJ to take a dim view of Microsoft trying to tie their software to the hardware in that way. |
| dinotrac Mar 18, 2010 11:55 PM EDT |
jdixon -- Here's the problem: 1. It ain't Microsoft doing the tying, it's Dell 2. Dell doesn't have a monopoly 4. There is no showing of harm. Dell is willing to take the machine back and, apparently, can offer Windows as a freebee. DOJ has no reason to care. |
| gus3 Mar 19, 2010 12:00 AM EDT |
Quoting:Dell... can offer Windows as a freebee.If that's the case, it can't count as a Windows "sale." But you know d@mn well it will. |
| tuxchick Mar 19, 2010 12:02 AM EDT |
I think #1 is debatable. MS' only genuine core competency is getting a firm grasp on the short hairs of their partners, and making them do their biddng. |
| jezuch Mar 19, 2010 3:06 AM EDT |
Quoting:It'd be binding, either way. Isn't it done in a catch-22 way? By opening the package you agree to the terms, but you can only know the terms by opening the package. |
| jacog Mar 19, 2010 4:05 AM EDT |
Quoting:I think #1 is debatable. MS' only genuine core competency is getting a firm grasp on the short hairs of their partners, and making them do their biddng. Then we will fight them with Brazillian waxes! |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 19, 2010 5:48 AM EDT |
Quoting:Isn't it done in a catch-22 way? By opening the package you agree to the terms, but you can only know the terms by opening the package. No. The EULA appears during setup.install and there's a decline button. |
| bigg Mar 19, 2010 6:36 AM EDT |
How about this: if you don't want Windows, don't buy a Dell? I've always felt there was something dishonest about buying a machine that you know comes with Windows, and then asking for a refund. You don't need Dell. |
| dinotrac Mar 19, 2010 7:15 AM EDT |
bigg - yes. gus3 - of course it can count as a windows sale, at least if you're Microsoft. It's just that Dell is paying for the license instead of the ultimate consumer. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 19, 2010 8:46 AM EDT |
Sander is spot on. The EULA comes up as "required reading" during the initial setup, it may even be the very first question, the "click through" that "nobody reads". I have never tried saying "disagree" to the thing, since I was going to erase it anyway. I wonder what happens? |
| jdixon Mar 19, 2010 8:51 AM EDT |
> 1. It ain't Microsoft doing the tying, it's Dell That's what I was asking, Dino. If it's an EULA for the machine, then there's no problem. Dell isn't a convicted monopolist. Microsoft is, so if it's a Windows EULA, there's a problem. |
| jdixon Mar 19, 2010 8:53 AM EDT |
> The EULA comes up as "required reading" during the initial setup, Almost certainly added by the manufacturer then. |
| jdixon Mar 19, 2010 9:01 AM EDT |
> I have never tried saying "disagree" to the thing, since I was going to erase it anyway. Yes. The really interesting question is what happens if you never agree that EULA or never even see it. I'm fairly sure that if you select decline you'll be told to return the machine. However, with a Dell, if you press F12 at the bios screen it brings up a boot menu and you can boot from a CD or (if current enough) a USB device. If you have a Linux install CD or USB drive ready, you'll bypass the EULA completely. I'd think even a good lawyer would have a hard time arguing that an agreement you never saw was binding. |
| bigg Mar 19, 2010 9:13 AM EDT |
> However, with a Dell, if you press F12 at the bios screen it brings up a boot menu and you can boot from a CD or (if current enough) a USB device. If you have a Linux install CD or USB drive ready, you'll bypass the EULA completely. Does that work? When I got my new work machine in 2007, I tried to get into the bios, but was not able to do so. I've not used Windows on it even once, though I think I booted into it one time to get some information. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 19, 2010 9:18 AM EDT |
> The EULA comes up as "required reading" during the initial setup,
During the initial WINDOWS setup, I should have said. During those "last two laptops", there were two EULAs, one Microsoft, one HP. Both said the same thing, "this is a package and can only be returned as such". |
| jdixon Mar 19, 2010 9:33 AM EDT |
> Does that work? It does on our Dell Optiplex's and Latitude's at work. The F12 prompt comes up during the bios screen. We reimage them with the company image anyway, so if I'm fast enough with the F12 key, I never see the EULA. |
| TxtEdMacs Mar 19, 2010 10:18 AM EDT |
RE: Windows monopoly on the desktop:
Quoting: [...] [getting them by] the short hairs Quoting:Then we will fight them with Brazillian waxes!Count me in ... but aren't most business people at the top male. Call me a bigot, but I only service women. [Gosh just when I thought I had the ideal gig ... so much better than being a shill for whomever or astroturfing for whatever.] Your Sad Buddy Txt. |
| dinotrac Mar 19, 2010 10:27 AM EDT |
>I'd think even a good lawyer would have a hard time arguing that an agreement you never saw was binding. So, what exactly do you think that buys you? You certainly can't rely on any language in the EULA to ask for a refund because, as you point out, it's not binding if you don't agree to it. |
| hkwint Mar 19, 2010 10:54 AM EDT |
I'm quite lucky I don't have to hunt for these licenses anymore, they'er on the web nowadays: [url=http://download.microsoft.com/Documents/UseTerms/Windows 7_Professional_English_b7a7153f-1a6c-498c-9350-c86926bb1aa9.pdf]http://download.microsoft.com/Documents/UseTerms/Windows 7_P...[/url] That's a Win7 PRO OEM EULA. It's an agreement between the user and OEM, it just happens to be written by MS. It states 'ask for the refund policy of your OEM', hence my try a few years ago to ask for those policies at 10 OEM's. Appears most of them simply don't have a policy at all. Looking at Dell - first doing a refund and then saying it was a mistake - there's clearly not such a policy. It's a bit awkward if an agreement between me and a company mentions a policy of said company while said policy doesn't exist in my opinion, but I think legally it's no problem. Therefore, you should try to find out the refund policy before buying Windows I suggest. Quoting:I've always felt there was something dishonest about buying a machine that you know comes with Windows, and then asking for a refund. Yes, you're right. There's also something dishonest about 'all PC's taking advantage of economy of scale' coming with Windows, on the other hand. That's why I feel it's OK to want to have advantage of economy of scale but not Windows. If you want to profit from economy of scale you have to buy from HP, Dell, Acer or Toshiba. Of course I can build my own PC, and I did, but separate bought parts will never be as cheap as the same parts in Indian-made Dell's (because that's where they're assembled and Windows is put on their HD's). |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 19, 2010 10:57 AM EDT |
I find the lack of general awareness of Microsoft EULA methods in this form quite heartening. |
| dinotrac Mar 19, 2010 11:17 AM EDT |
Ummmm....Hans.... Yout act as if that economy of scale doesn't benefit you, but readily admit that Dell's are a better deal than you can make for yourself or buy from others. That's why you want to buy the stupid thing. Carping because Windows makes possible a terrific deal for you sounds just a little precious. |
| tuxchick Mar 19, 2010 11:25 AM EDT |
Quoting: Yout act as if that economy of scale doesn't benefit you, but readily admit that Dell's are a better deal than you can make for yourself or buy from others. It's a better deal for the immediate term. For the long term, it reinforces Microsoft's lock on OEMs and retail, and keeps competitors off the shelves. |
| DiBosco Mar 19, 2010 12:23 PM EDT |
Quoting:but separate bought parts will never be as cheap as the same parts in Indian-made Dells (because that's where they're assembled and Windows is put on their HDs). That surprises me. With desktops I have always found I can put together a machine cheaper with parts from a local supplier than I could from someone like Dell. With laptops it's a different matter. I wonder whether parts are cheaper in the UK than the Netherlands? |
| techiem2 Mar 19, 2010 12:28 PM EDT |
My builds tend to be more expensive than your typical "Dell special", but I'm very picky about my components. Combine that with the fact that Dell probably orders parts in batches of thousands....they probably pay quite a bit less for their individual parts than I do. |
| tuxchick Mar 19, 2010 12:36 PM EDT |
The parts that are significantly more expensive for the DIY system builder are the power supplies and cases. The big OEMs like Dell use special power supplies that are specced to the absolute minimum wattage and amperage. Good luck adding more drives or higher-powered CPUs. Dell has pretty nice cases, but again they are specced out to precise requirements without regard for flexibility or expansion. I like Antec cases because they are big and quiet and I can do pretty much whatever I want with them. |
| techiem2 Mar 19, 2010 1:02 PM EDT |
Especially when you're like me and decide to get the nicer Antec eathWatts 80+ certified PSUs for $70-$80 or so instead of the standard $30-$40 ones. :P I put the ew500 in my last 3 machines (vm server, personal workstation rebuild, mythtv box). I figure they may cost a bit more, but they should be good reliable PSUs. Not to mention saving a few $$ on the parents' power bill since those machines run 24/7/365. :P |
| TxtEdMacs Mar 19, 2010 1:37 PM EDT |
dino, [serious] Quoting: [...] Dell's are a better deal than you can make for yourself or buy from others.Hans didn't actually say that, he just said it would be more expensive. I too will grant you that, since neither he nor I could buy at the same discount done by volume orders. However, we would tend to buy better quality and matched components where the rise in price is worth the added expense. That's the way I try to do my regular machines and I only wish the option were available to try to do the same with a laptop. However, have you noticed that laptops [non - Macs] have become easier to modify / upgrade? Well time to end this [/serious] crap, YBT |
| TxtEdMacs Mar 19, 2010 1:43 PM EDT |
Everyone after dino's post, [serious] Sorry I see others made the same point in more detail and with greater clarity. Thus, making my post superfluous. Sometimes I should just skip the [/ i.e. end ] [serious] and do what I like the best. As always, YBT |
| bigg Mar 19, 2010 1:47 PM EDT |
> Good luck adding more drives or higher-powered CPUs. Or as is pretty common these days, a high-end video card. I paid $80 for a very good power supply and case last year. The deals are out there if you have patience. If you want something that will "just do the job" you can find $30 deals like this: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147... |
| tracyanne Mar 19, 2010 7:24 PM EDT |
I'm not at all sure Dell and Quality are words that belong together. Every Dell Laptop and Desktop and Server that has been purchased by the company I work for has had at least one service call out during the first year. On the other hand just comparing notes with my colleagues, it would appear that most other brands, including the No Name brands that I can get wholesale, with the exception of HP, are very reliable and (in this admittedly small sample) have never had to be serviced during their lifetime. |
| hkwint Mar 19, 2010 8:03 PM EDT |
Indeed, like told, I 'built' my own desktop - because it was the best deal (Dell doesn't offer energy efficient Gentoo-certified desktops). Also durability was an issue; my 280W PSU is 5 years old but still better than most of the #### you find in OEM-pre-assembled cases even when not grounded. But nonetheless I ended up paying pretty much for memory and CPU. Consider this: 1) Intel CPU's are manufactured in Taiwan (TSMC?), put on some foam, with 1000 of them put in a box, shipped to India and put in a Dell, 2) Intel CPU's are manufactured in Taiwan (TSMC?), separately packaged in boxes thirty times as big as the CPU's (labour costs), manual / guarantee certificate added, (maybe) shipped to the US (transport costs), put in a climate controlled warehouse (energy costs + labour costs), then shipped to the Netherlands (transport costs), 19% VAT added (administration costs), again in some temperature controlled warehouse (energy + labour costs) at some wholesale company (labour costs), then they're sold (administration costs) to some smaller distributor (value added), transported (transport costs) to the small company and then I walk across the street to buy them (some VAT added in the process again!) So if someone is able to put a desktop together with 'local' components and ends up with a cheaper solution than Dell, it would surprise me. Apart from that, Dell probably pays less for a typical CPU than System76, so there's no level playing field between those OEM's that install Windows on 90%+ of their PC's and those that install Linux on 90%+. Given Windows is installed on Dell PC's even _before_ those desktops enter the US, you probably know why Dell Ubuntu desktops are more expensive: Some expensive US worker probably has to remove Windows, send the license back to India + added cost to transfer that Windows license to some brand new Indian-assembled PC (They don't let the Windows users pay for that!), and then they add Ubuntu. So you have to pay for removing Windows as well as adding buntu and because it's done by adults in the US and not in India it's expensive. So there's no level playing field between Linux computers and Windows computers, that's all I'm saying. [1]You can buy a Linux Dell-desktop and then _you_ will be the one paying for removing Windows + adding Linux. [2]Or you can buy a Windows Dell-desktop and ask for a refund and add Linux yourself, end Dell will end up paying. Please note in [1] there's more work done by Dell, so they make more profit. Even if much people buy one, there's no reason for them to change the process in India. Even better, US Dell employees having to remove Windows and adding Ubuntu means more employment for Dell US and more profit, that's the normal way (some) companies work. They'd rather do more work to make more profit than make the process more efficient to avoid work and earn less. Sounds contradictory, but I've encountered this in real life: More work means a higher margin on your products. So buying [1] only enforces the status quo, unless more than 10% of people buy their Dell with Linux. However, if a lot of people do [2] then Dell ends up losing lots of money, even if only 1% of their customers do so. That's the only way to change their sw-installation process and stop 100% of the Dells having Windows pre-installed in India before the computers are boxed. It's disrupting their Windows-centered helpdesk employees who are trained to guide people through Windows GUI's and are now asked to consider legal EULA-stuff and fix refunds instead of virusses. If I were to buy some Dell, I'd certainly know what I'd choose. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 19, 2010 9:05 PM EDT |
The only Dell I'm likely to buy is recycled. |
| jdixon Mar 19, 2010 10:44 PM EDT |
> So, what exactly do you think that buys you?.... You certainly can't rely on any language in the EULA to ask for a refund.... Dino, the EULA is what says you can't get a refund. If it's not binding, then neither is the no refund clause. Not that it's anything other than a intellectual exercise for me. If I need/want Windows, I'll by a Windows machine. If I don't, I'll build my own or buy a Linux machine. There are times it's good to have a valid Windows license lying around. |
| jezuch Mar 20, 2010 6:47 AM EDT |
Quoting:So if someone is able to put a desktop together with 'local' components and ends up with a cheaper solution than Dell, it would surprise me. But if they're serious about business, they would buy CPU's just like Dell does, in trays of 1000. Building desktops for sale using retail parts is insane. Also, you forgot that the assembled Dell box in your scenario 1) goes through the same packaging-shipping-taxing-shipping-again routine as the CPU from scenario 2), only later in the production pipeline :) |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 20, 2010 7:49 AM EDT |
Quoting:I wonder whether parts are cheaper in the UK than the Netherlands? It's not expensive here either. When I build myself I can build cheaper than Dell if I want. The difference being mainly the cost of a Windows license. Usually I can match price on Dell machines. That is: Build a machine that matches the specs of Dell but uses quality parts instead, for the same price as Dell (but sans Windows of course). |
| hkwint Mar 20, 2010 12:40 PM EDT |
Quoting:1) goes through the same packaging-shipping-taxing-shipping-again routine as the CPU from scenario No, I didn't forgot, and no, it's not the same routine in my opinion. At Dell, the CPU is in the case and then it's done for the CPU. My separate case goes through the same scenario, but without a CPU in it, that's the difference. More boxes, more loose parts, more warehouses and personnel needed and such. More steps are more times value added. A Dell has one manual, my computer may have six of the separte parts, six boxes with foam (before RoHS) etc. The CPU in the Dell is in the case - and the case had to come to me anyway so putting the CPU in the case is much cheaper than shipping them separately. It's only for the VAT that it doesn't matter, however if someone has to calculate VAT for a CPU on Monday, for memory Tuesday and for a case Wednesday it's more expensive than if they do it for one Dell at the same time. I've tried to match certain Dell PC's in the past using the same hardware, but I couldn't. It was more than four years ago however, so I'm not sure, maybe Dell's just became more expensive or something, I'm not sure. But given I buy one CPU and Dell buys 1 million of them, I cannot imagine Dell's cost price of their desktops not being much lower than mine, so maybe it's just their profit that makes doing it yourself almost as cheap? |
| dinotrac Mar 20, 2010 3:08 PM EDT |
Hans -- I can never afford to buy Dell or HP or any pre-built machine, but only because of a cheat that comes from building your own --- I rarely upgrade everything at once. A new motherboard can usually slip right into my existing case and use my current power supply. Keyboards, mice and DVD drives often overlap system upgrades, Etc. Not so easy when buying Dells. |
| hkwint Mar 20, 2010 3:43 PM EDT |
Indeed, that's true. I saw this when my father bought some Packard Bell pre-built etc., a nightmare to add new hardware to. So in the long run building yourself is cheaper and if people say they can build cheaper than Dell I believe them. Nonetheless the few times I tried listing some configuration comparable to some Dell computer, it was more expensive than the pre-built one. I think the desktop is diminishing in importance however, the next-gen will be tablets / smart- / cloud- / netbooks and smartphones who are not configurable, just like most laptops, so configurable DIY-changeable computers might be a thing of the past for a short while. |
| gus3 Mar 20, 2010 5:52 PM EDT |
An Asus Eee Box PC, prebuilt, with Red Flag Linux, small enough to mount on the back of a monitor (bracket and screws included), all hardware addition via USB2. Nothing in the warranty statement about binding the installed software to the hardware for return or service purposes. For US$230 from NewEgg. It now has Fedora 12, but I did make sure to exercise the hardware before wiping the HD. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 20, 2010 7:29 PM EDT |
Several years ago, I believe in the LXer forums, on just such a topic as this, I posed the question: "What if, because of these software kickbacks, a Linux computer ends up costing only $5 less, or even MORE than with Windows?" Well, now we know. |
| dinotrac Mar 20, 2010 10:25 PM EDT |
BR -- I remember those discussions well. I made the same point -- why do people assume a Linux system must be cheaper than a Windows box? The cost of the system is the sum of the parts, and some of those Windows parts are negative, coming in the from of payments from software and service providers for the right to install their crapware. |
| gus3 Mar 21, 2010 12:07 AM EDT |
So..... the net value of Windows is negative! Kind of demolishes the anti-FOSS argument that "it can't be any good if it's free." |
| dinotrac Mar 21, 2010 8:33 AM EDT |
gus3 - Wouldn't that be nice! Unfotunately, it's also great support for the proposition that Windows offers superior ROI. It makes you money before you even use it. |
| TxtEdMacs Mar 21, 2010 10:03 AM EDT |
dino,Quoting: It makes you money before you even use it.But it loses it at a frightful rate once you do. [I would not be saying such nasty truths if my checks were not bouncing. Shill now, shill forever, but you have got to pay.] YBT |
| gus3 Mar 21, 2010 11:03 AM EDT |
Quoting:It makes you money before you even use it.Again, false. That's like buying mustard instead of caviar, and claiming you "made money" in the difference. Kind of like "baseline budgeting." |
| dinotrac Mar 21, 2010 11:32 AM EDT |
gus3 - No, it isn't. Buying mustard doesn't get you cheaper hot dogs. It seems that buying Windows gets you cheaper computers. |
| gus3 Mar 21, 2010 11:47 AM EDT |
dino, it's the "making money" part. You don't "make money" by not spending it. You "make money" by adding value. |
| dinotrac Mar 21, 2010 6:19 PM EDT |
gus3 -- Hmmmmmmmmmmm. OK. I can buy that, even if it's a bit on the tomato/tomahto side of things. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 21, 2010 7:31 PM EDT |
Dino, I wouldn't have said that Windows has negative value, just that Windows has a positive net value to the OEM. The negative net-value is to the CUSTOMER, who has to be bribed with a lower cost into taking Windows. Whereas, installing Linux doesn't gain Dell anything. So what we need is some Linux gaming sites, like S2Games, to pay Dell to put demos of their games on Linux installs. |
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