Uh....
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| techiem2 Mar 09, 2010 8:29 AM EDT |
(No, I didn't read the article. The teaser was enough for me.)Quoting: Ubuntu. If you've ever tried it, you'll agree that it is the ultimate Linux distribution. From its Debian roots to its commercially available support to its overwhelming popularity, Ubuntu is the ultimate Linux distribution. Really? The Ultimate Distro? Ultimate for what? Speed? I don't think so. Hardware support? No more so than any other distro. Software availability? No more so than any other distro. Power? Nope. Customization? No more so than any other distro. Raw number of users? Maybe, but that doesn't say much. Commercial support? I doubt it. RedHat probably still owns that department. User friendliness? All a matter of personal opinion. Community Support? Maybe, but most decent distros have fairly good support communities. Noob friendliness? Again, all a matter of personal opinion. Fanboyism? It might have a chance at that one due to the pure number of users, but most distros have pretty dedicated fans. Sorry, I'm just not seeing it being the Ultimate at anything. I'll stick with my Gentoo/Funtoo and pure Debian installs. Ok, maybe I'm just being ornery since I'm up early today. But I have a hard time seeing ANY distro being called the Ultimate distro. They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and from what I've seen, Ubuntu isn't really that much different than any other "full desktop setup" distro. Better than some, worse than others. |
| ComputerBob Mar 09, 2010 9:23 AM EDT |
I've never said this about anyone else, but IMHO, Ken Hess has repeatedly demonstrated that he's a click whore who willingly trades his credibility for publicity, by writing controversial garbage to bait readers into visiting DaniWeb to disagree with him. I think he should change his name to Ken Kardashian. |
| jdixon Mar 09, 2010 9:52 AM EDT |
> ...and from what I've seen, Ubuntu isn't really that much different than any other "full desktop setup" distro. Better than some, worse than others. Which pretty much sums up the opinion of most long time Linux users when it comes to Ubuntu. Yeah, it's a pretty good distro, but no better than a dozen or so others. It's one good selling point is it's relatively newbie friendly support forums. |
| gus3 Mar 09, 2010 10:28 AM EDT |
Ken Kardashian? That would make Bruce Jenner his step-dad. I'm sure there's worse things to have happen... As for the "raw number of users," that would make Windows the ultimate Linux distro. |
| tuxchick Mar 09, 2010 10:54 AM EDT |
It's the ultimate hype distro. |
| flufferbeer Mar 09, 2010 10:57 AM EDT |
@techiem2, ComputerBob
I've seen about 1-2 Ken Hess DaniWebs per month here, and yet I cannot recall seeing any Boycott Novells? What gives?
You think that maybe Ken Hess is the antithesis of Roy Schestowitz, and that maybe Roy has given up posting here?
Just wonderin.... In any case, I pretty much agree w/ jdixon that Ubuntu is a good distro. With its friendly support forums, I think that it's even better than raw Debian for persons switching over from M$ Winbloze. No doubt Steven_Rosenberg or some other long-term raw Debian user will find a way to disagree w/ this. Whatever..... to each his/her own. My 2c |
| TxtEdMacs Mar 09, 2010 11:46 AM EDT |
All, I have taken a new oath: Not only will I not read anything purportedly authored by Ken Hess I will no longer even comment on threads documenting his further decline. My reasoning is simple. Why bother dribbling on drabble? YBT |
| azerthoth Mar 09, 2010 12:16 PM EDT |
Quoting:* There are no restrictions on modifying the software (except for keeping certain notices intact). Cant even get the GPL right Ken? I mean it's not like it's undocumented and uncommented. |
| dinotrac Mar 09, 2010 12:30 PM EDT |
azer -- Sorry, but you got the wrong wrong... He wasn't referring to the GPL, but to free software, which encompasses a number of licenses. That said, it's pretty moronic to make that statement as it is not true for the most common free license and may or may not be true of others. |
| azerthoth Mar 09, 2010 1:03 PM EDT |
Thanks dino, yours is the more correct statement. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 09, 2010 2:41 PM EDT |
I'm not going to read the article either, the author's name is enough. And Daniweb makes my antique Konqueror 3.5.9 choke and I have to play games just to read the articles there. Not worth the effort. |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 09, 2010 3:33 PM EDT |
One of the problems I face in my own writing is that of audience: Is your article aimed at readers who already know about open source and have some or much exposure to FOSS applications and operating systems and who have probably run one or more Linux distributions on the desktop or server? Or are you writing for a general audience that might have heard of Linux - or not - and which is primarily made up of people who have never run or installed a Linux distribution? I have both kinds of readers in my audience, but when I write about Linux or BSD, I'm generally aiming for a reader who has at least a little familiarity with FOSS, both applications and full operating environments. Not that I haven't written articles like this, but I mostly tell readers to take the next step and start looking for as much information as they can on open source software. This article tries to appeal to both audiences but doesn't really have enough for either one. The words "Mark Shuttleworth," or the money he is putting into Canonical aren't enough to tame Debian, if in fact it needs any such taming. In the article, Ken is encouraging readers to set up a server, even a cloud server (what that actually is, I have very little idea). The whole thing is much more complicated than this. I've boosted Ubuntu plenty in my articles, but anybody who has used it to any extent knows that it's far from "ultimate," except maybe the ultimate brown, even that is changing. I guess now it's "ultimate purple." I've taken great pains over the past few months to say that Ubuntu has a lot of ambition, not nearly all fulfilled - and I think anybody involved in the project would have to agree that there's much work to be done. One of the best things about free, open-source software is the ability to take a project and build on it to create something different. Ubuntu does this with Debian, Debian does it with the Linux kernel, the GNU tools and thousands of upstream packages. And Mint goes further, taking Ubuntu and bolting on the multimedia bits. While I don't want to get into a "what's ultimate" pissing contest, there are dozens of choices in Linux and BSD for the experienced user. Ubuntu is not the clear choice, even though it markets to the already-using-Linux community way more than it does to the vast never-used-it world. In my opinion, the new user is not being taken care of very well at all. Installing a Linux or BSD operating system on a given set of hardware, configuring it and keeping it configured over time is too difficult. I still think that the hardware retailers who preload, ship and support (both themselves and with their community) a free, open-source operating system and accompanying applications are what's missing. If Ubuntu can make preloads happen on a large scale and not cause mass havoc among the new users they get as a result, it'll be closer to "ultimate," but until then it's just another Linux distribution among many. It's a good one, but it doesn't stand alone or apart from the rest of the community - or at least that's my take on it. The irony inherent in this post is that I recommend Ubuntu for new users, although now I'm gravitating more toward Mint, which is Ubuntu-derived. The difference is that I know full well that a new user needs a lot of help, even with Ubuntu. In most cases, they can't do it without help, and if the designated helper wishes, any number of other Linux distributions can do just as well, or better. |
| Alcibiades Mar 09, 2010 3:56 PM EDT |
"I recommend Ubuntu for new users, although now I'm gravitating more toward Mint, which is Ubuntu-derived." I've had good luck with Mandriva One, Gnome Edition. People do pretty well with it. Upgrading is a bit of a struggle, but you only have to do it every 18-24 months. If I am going to actively support it personally, Debian, well what else is there? |
| azerthoth Mar 09, 2010 4:33 PM EDT |
Gentoo family |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 09, 2010 4:57 PM EDT |
Ironic or not, I have more multimedia working in Debian than I ever could get right in Ubuntu. |
| wolfen69 Mar 10, 2010 2:15 AM EDT |
"Ironic or not, I have more multimedia working in Debian than I ever could get right in Ubuntu." All you need to do is "sudo apt-get install non-free-codecs" This will give you every codec known to man. I'm a multimedia junkie, and have yet to find something I can't play. Not so hard after all, huh? |
| ComputerBob Mar 10, 2010 9:38 AM EDT |
Quoting:All you need to do is "sudo apt-get install non-free-codecs" This will give you every codec known to man. I'm a multimedia junkie, and have yet to find something I can't play. Not so hard after all, huh?Pretty patronizing after all, huh? Which repos are you using? My Debian Squeeze doesn't list any "non-free-codecs" package. Never mind -- I figured out that you're using the medibuntu repo in Ubuntu, not Debian. |
| helios Mar 10, 2010 10:10 AM EDT |
"Which repos are you using?" And that's what it comes down to. The last time I installed Ubuntu...I am guessing about 3 months ago, the repos I needed required manual insertion. Other Ubuntu-based distros may not include them, but they are in the list and a check mark away from being activated. The new user isn't going to know how to find the repository string and add it to her repo list. Yeah I understand the non free religious and legal arguments but that makes not one bit of difference to a new user. Make it easy or don't. The market will decide which distro is easiest, not a blogger....any blogger. Saying something repeatedly doesn't make it the truth. h |
| ComputerBob Mar 10, 2010 10:27 AM EDT |
I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. You're right, helios. |
| hkwint Mar 10, 2010 10:41 AM EDT |
From a user-approachability perspective the Debian repository system is flawed anyway: The user has to bundle separate repositories to create one compound repository at the client. Why aren't all the repositories compounded (maybe using links or something like that) to one repository at the server side - and then the user selects which licenses they do / don't allow? That would be far easier. Maybe provide some 'safety switch' a la Windows in which some user can specify to what safety grade packages should conform: "High safety" meaning only Debian packages, "Normal safety" meaning any controlled repository and "Low safety" meaning whatever repository is available - including 'maybe untrustworthy' 3d parties. I also never understood why Debian seems to insist on wanting to copy all software to their own repositories and letting the user download stuff like VMWare themselves instead of providing 'recipes' like distro's like FreeBSD, Gentoo and Arch, this makes installing non-free stuff in Debian a real PITA, and without any need. |
| dinotrac Mar 10, 2010 10:44 AM EDT |
CB -- Wait a minute -- Does that mean the "World Famous Apple Pie" down the street at (********)'s isn't? |
| hkwint Mar 10, 2010 10:51 AM EDT |
Here, compare this (installing VirtualBox PUEL:) Ubuntu: ___________________________ As root (sudo), add the line "deb http: //download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/debian intrepid non-free" to /etc/apt/sources.list Add the key: $wget -q http: //download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/debian/sun_vbox.asc -O- | sudo apt-key add - Resynchronize package files: $sudo apt-get update Now, you can only find the PUEL-version by means of ruling out the ose-versions (how stupid is that?): $ apt-cache search virtualbox And finally: sudo apt-get install virtualbox-2.0 _____________________________ Gentoo: _______________ Add 'PUEL' to ACCEPT_LICENSE= in /etc/make.conf if necessary, $sudo emerge virtualbox-bin _______________ See the difference? |
| gus3 Mar 10, 2010 10:52 AM EDT |
I am smarter than everyone here. I am smarter than everyone here. I am smarter than everyone here. I am smarter than everyone here. I am smarter than everyone here. I am smarter than everyone here. I am smarter than everyone here. I am smarter than everyone here. HA! You're wrong, helios! |
| jdixon Mar 10, 2010 11:02 AM EDT |
> I am rich and famous. You know, I've never seen the attraction of being famous. Rich? Yeah, that I can understand. > I am smarter than everyone here. Since the intelligence of a group can roughly be determined by taking the highest intelligence in the group and dividing by the number of people in the group... Yeah, you probably are. |
| dinotrac Mar 10, 2010 11:06 AM EDT |
jdixon - No, not while my humble little self is around. |
| ComputerBob Mar 10, 2010 11:40 AM EDT |
Very few people know how famous I am. |
| dinotrac Mar 10, 2010 11:42 AM EDT |
CB - We do, we do. |
| azerthoth Mar 10, 2010 12:07 PM EDT |
Whats worse is, in bowing to pressure from some hosts and mirrors, Sabayon was forced to separate from a single repository to the idiots guide to debian repository structure. Happily however, that even though we were forced to do a major back end overhaul in between release revisions, we were not forced to make these 'opt in' like so many others distro's handle repo's. It just means to our users that after install you just have to use a less strict hash check for about 6 packages the first time you update. |
| tuxchick Mar 10, 2010 12:53 PM EDT |
Computers get smarter and people get stupider. Managing multiple repos is not hard. Both Debian and Ubuntu provide good instructions, and graphical package managers with clicky-pointys. The advantage of multiple repos is it's easy to control what goes on your system, so if you don't want source code or non-free packages, for example, no worries, they're in separate repos. Third-party repos are great for supporting apps that the distro doesn't, or doesn't support very well. Like Planet CCRMA for Fedora and CentOS. Planet CCRMA specializes in low-latency kernels and audio packages. Since they specialize in audio packages, their energies are not divided so they are able to maintain high-quality stable packages. Teach people how to do things. All noobs are going to face a learning curve. With Linux, the more you learn the more you can do, which is not true of OS X or Windows, both of which lock away real control from users. Linux doesn't need to imitate that model. |
| TxtEdMacs Mar 10, 2010 1:07 PM EDT |
The Computer Bob Guy,Quoting:I am rich and famous. I am rich and famous. [...]I will believe you, it just requires sending me a non-bouncing check and I will praise your singing ... or is it sing your praises. I always get those mixed up. YBT P.S. Electronic transfers will suffice, send private email with your account number so I can clean you out ... No I mean take my share ... ah, how about a pittance? |
| ComputerBob Mar 10, 2010 1:40 PM EDT |
@YBT - Just as soon as I receive my check from Nigeria. |
| dinotrac Mar 10, 2010 2:12 PM EDT |
Worry not, CB -- Check's in the mail. BTW -- need any Viagra, personal enlargers, or special guaranteed to melt inches away without diet or exercise while you make big bucks working from home shakes? |
| herzeleid Mar 10, 2010 3:29 PM EDT |
I see a lot of ruffled feathers from enthusiasts of non-ubuntu distros, many of them damning ubutu with faint praise, contemptuously referring to it as a distro for newbies, yadda yadda yadda. As someone who works as a unix admin, I've been using linux as my full time, primary OS since 1993, starting with SLS and then moving to slackware, which I kept running for a good 3 years. That was when it took some skill to run linux, and if you wanted sound when you played doom, you had to recompile your kernel, choosing the correct IRQ, IO port and DMA channel for your soundblaster. I've used a lot of distros between then and now - redhat, mandrake, caldera, debian, fedora, suse/opensuse, sles, and others, and switched to ubuntu when 8.04 came out. For me, the main selling point of ubuntu is none of the silly reasons mentioned above, but rather the fact that absolutely everything on my various laptops, desktops and servers works 100%, out of the box. Full stop. I also appreciate the qualities it shares with debian - the vast inventory of packages available, and the apt package management system. After using the native suse and redhat package management systems for some years, I have to say that debian package management wins hands down. I also appreciate the lean, mean ubuntu server install. No GUI, and just what you need for the job, no more and no less. I can recommend ubuntu to a newbie, knowing that he/she will have a fairly easy time installing it and figuring out how to use it. In the past, these sorts of folks would struggle with other distros and give up. OK, donning the asbestos suit - flame away, ubuntu haters! |
| wolfen69 Mar 10, 2010 3:29 PM EDT |
hkwint said:
"Here, compare this (installing VirtualBox PUEL:) Ubuntu: ___________________________ As root (sudo), add the line "deb http: //download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/debian intrepid non-free" to /etc/apt/sources.list Add the key: $wget -q http: //download.virtualbox.org/virtualbox/debian/sun_vbox.asc -O- | sudo apt-key add - Resynchronize package files: $sudo apt-get update Now, you can only find the PUEL-version by means of ruling out the ose-versions (how stupid is that?): $ apt-cache search virtualbox And finally: sudo apt-get install virtualbox-2.0" WRONG. All I need to do in ubuntu to get the PUEL version of vbox is to go to the vbox site and download the .deb file for ubuntu. 1 click install. Nice try at FUD. And btw, the PUEL version is now the default download on the linux download page. Have a nice day. |
| wolfen69 Mar 10, 2010 3:38 PM EDT |
herzeleid said:
"For me, the main selling point of ubuntu is none of the silly reasons mentioned above, but rather the fact that absolutely everything on my various laptops, desktops and servers works 100%, out of the box. Full stop." I agree. I have done over 40 installs of ubuntu on various hardware configs, and have yet to find a better all around distro. It simply works 99% of the time. |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 10, 2010 3:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:From a user-approachability perspective the Debian repository system is flawed anyway: Uh, no. The software does this for them. All the user has to do is pointy-clicky to say they want the non-free repository. Better: It's on by default. Quoting:Here, compare this (installing VirtualBox PUEL Flawed, like Wolven69 said. Debian is even better. It ships Virtualbox in it's install. Again, just point-click in the software list. |
| dinotrac Mar 10, 2010 3:45 PM EDT |
wolfen - Sucks to be the 1%, though, an experience I have had several times. Admittedly, I have had some, umm, less that popular hardware in the process, including a pci Express ethernet card, a Pinnacle PCI HD TV tuner, a couple of ralink wireless cards (well, one is a USB adapter) that, ummmm, well -- they work now. And I can't really blame Ubuntu for failing to understand a 3 core Phenom II. All in all, I'm not thrilled with Ubuntu, but part of that is that I came over from OpenSuSE, a very good RPM-based distro. I also came over from KDE and never warmed up to GNOME and am only slowly learning not to grumble at XFCE. |
| bigg Mar 10, 2010 4:27 PM EDT |
> It simply works 99% of the time. 99% must not be as big as it used to be. > Nice try at FUD. Except that your method only works for the PUEL version. Not everyone wants that. Plus, hopefully to offend the Ubuntu fanbois, Ubuntu was the only distro that ever gave me trouble with USB and vbox. |
| dinotrac Mar 10, 2010 4:35 PM EDT |
bigg -- Wait -- did you get past that problem with USB and vbox? I would REALLLLLLLLY like to know how you did it! |
| bigg Mar 10, 2010 4:56 PM EDT |
> did you get past that problem with USB and vbox? Not really - that's a typo, it should have said virtualbox, not vbox. |
| wolfen69 Mar 10, 2010 5:00 PM EDT |
bigg said:
"Except that your method only works for the PUEL version. Not everyone wants that. Plus, hopefully to offend the Ubuntu fanbois, Ubuntu was the only distro that ever gave me trouble with USB and vbox." Is everyone having an off day? If you want the non-PUEL version, just open synaptic, search for virtualbox, and click to install. Anyone else need help? |
| bigg Mar 10, 2010 5:19 PM EDT |
It's not good to post when I'm in a hurry. My recollection is that you can't just install virtualbox from synaptic. I believe there is still some configuration. At least the last time I tried I gave up and installed the PUEL version, usually the FOSS edition is easier, but not with virtualbox. |
| wolfen69 Mar 10, 2010 5:41 PM EDT |
The only configuration needed is to add yourself to the vboxusers group, but that's with any distro. And yes, vbox free edition is in synaptic. |
| hkwint Mar 10, 2010 7:13 PM EDT |
Quoting:WRONG. First of all: No reason to get excited, I was / am just somebody willing to try / use Debian (a potential user), not somebody willing to flame Debian. It is because I am actually looking for something more user friendly as I am fed up with Gentoo, which can be found in my earlier comments and the article I wrote about it. 1) This process is what I found using the web, it documents this procedure at multiple locations. I found about the same procedure (and used that procedure) for VMWare-Workstation 2) Of course I can download a binary and install it, but normally in Linux I'd let the package manager handle stuff like that. Because it is the tool supposed to do so, I don't think I have to point out the advantages of using a packet manager here. It's just that I feel this 'merging' / 'compounding' could have been done server side if the ones making the distro decided it should be easy for new users. Like TuxChick says, of course you can learn new users and I was happy to learn this method, but things could have been more easy. The other thing which they could have made more easy was booting from LiveUSB and making X 'fallback' to VESA because for me - out of the box it doesn't work and has't worked since 2006 or so. If there's some point & click list in Ubuntu where I can enable / disable repositories - than sadly I missed this opportunity or didn't find it. Also, it's not always straightforward for the new user (such as me) what the differences between those repos are, I'm pretty confused by all those options. If they were given some 'security' / 'approvedness-level' or something and some level of 'freeness of the license', in other words: If an expert on this topic would 'rate' those repositories, new users would have an easier time instead of just blindly following 'add this to your sources file if you want xx to work'. In an ideal situation, there would be a list with all repos (a repo of repos) with all those ratings. I was rather happy with Ubuntu last time I tried it (about three years ago?) but for a distro which (it seems) aims to be approachable, some things are rather hard to accomplish. And they could be fixed, that was what I'm trying to say. I mean, much of what I tried to accomplish was really easy in Ubuntu, much easier than in other distro's, so I find it sad if something is difficult (for newbies like me) in Ubuntu. If something is hard in Gentoo, OK, I can live with that, I expected it, and that's why I'm surprised some things are easier in Gentoo than in Ubuntu. To me, that's not the way things should be. These minor annoyances (plus I find it pretty hard to mix stable / testing / unstable in Debian) are what currently keeps me 'locked in' to Gentoo, but try updating a box which has not been updated for three months in Gentoo and you'd probably understand I'm looking for something else. |
| hkwint Mar 10, 2010 7:15 PM EDT |
BTW last time I wrote about my Debian attempts http://lxer.com/module/newswire/view/113405/index.html I promised to try it once again, so maybe 2010 is a good moment. |
| jdixon Mar 10, 2010 8:30 PM EDT |
> ...so maybe 2010 is a good moment. I'd wait till 10.04 is released, Hans. |
| hkwint Mar 10, 2010 9:02 PM EDT |
Note to myself: Why install virtualbox-bin if virtualbox-ose is also a bin (in Debian)? |
| azerthoth Mar 10, 2010 10:39 PM EDT |
vbox-bin and vbox-ose are not feature complete mirrors. vbox-bin is the closed source do more version. |
| wolfen69 Mar 11, 2010 12:19 AM EDT |
hkwint said: "I was rather happy with Ubuntu last time I tried it (about three years ago?)" That says a lot right there. Ubuntu has made loads of improvements since 3 years ago. I suggest you wait until 10.04 comes out and try that. I think you will be pleasantly surprised. |
| jdixon Mar 11, 2010 7:52 AM EDT |
> Ubuntu has made loads of improvements since 3 years ago. Unless you use certain Intel video chipsets. But then most distros seem to be having that problem lately, as it's an Xorg issue, not one specific to any particular distro. Of course, if you're going to claim that Ubuntu is that much better than other distros, it should be able to fix such a problem. |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 11, 2010 10:23 AM EDT |
10.4 isn't out yet jdixon. They may still fix it before release. |
| hkwint Mar 11, 2010 10:37 AM EDT |
Sadly, I was not able to easily see those improvements made in the last three years, as making it boot from USB took multiple hours of my time, after that making X boot took at least another hour and after that I didn't know how to proceed - as the failure of X dropped me to the command line without any clues how to continue to start the familiar Gnome environment. But I'll promise I'll give 10.04 a try. |
| jdixon Mar 11, 2010 11:32 PM EDT |
> They may still fix it before release. Possibly. We'll just have to wait and see. |
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