I'm one of the defectors
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| jezuch Mar 03, 2010 3:19 AM EDT |
I admit it: I dumped Firefox for Chromium, even though I thought I was happy enough. But I finally got fed up by the fact that Linux is a second class citizen in Mozilla land. I hate all those "why I switched" stories, so that's all I'm going to say. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 03, 2010 9:33 AM EDT |
As if Google has treated Linux as much more than a red-headed stepchild over the years. If they ever realize their mistake and contribute the kernel updates they try to do internally.... argh. |
| dinotrac Mar 03, 2010 10:04 AM EDT |
I may have to give Chrome a try. I'm getting tired of Firefox not being able to turn its back on any available memory. |
| gus3 Mar 03, 2010 10:08 AM EDT |
Just put in more memory. 4 gigs, baby! LOL |
| dinotrac Mar 03, 2010 10:11 AM EDT |
gus3 --- But when Firefox wants that 5th gig, what do I do? |
| ComputerBob Mar 03, 2010 10:13 AM EDT |
Quoting:I may have to give Chrome a try.Just for the record, because it seems that a lot of people don't know it, Chrome != Chromium Chromium != Chrome |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 03, 2010 11:34 AM EDT |
In the immortal words of C3PO, "Don't get technical with me!" |
| gus3 Mar 03, 2010 11:43 AM EDT |
Quoting:But when Firefox wants that 5th gig, what do I do?When that happens, 256 gigs will be standard on cheap equipment, and you'll be counting the weeks to retirement. @ the Bobs: Perhaps it's time to subvert this deliberate attempt by Google to muddy the waters. We should call them "the Google browser" and "the Google OS". Microsoft tried that with their "{Open Office,Office Open}XML" stunt, and while the stunt may have won the battle, M$ lost the war to ODF. |
| ComputerBob Mar 03, 2010 12:18 PM EDT |
@gus3 - Except that they're both Google browsers. One is proprietary; the other is open source. I think you may be thinking of ChromeOS instead of Chrome. (I hate all of those similar names.) For further muddying: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome_OS |
| herzeleid Mar 03, 2010 3:10 PM EDT |
I too have made chrome my default browser - I love the instant startup and the speed on javascript intensive tasks. But I also use firefox-3.6 because it has some nice features, plugins etc that I find useful, and it does some things better than chrome. At this point I'm a 2-browser man, because I don't buy the idea there can be only one. |
| jezuch Mar 03, 2010 4:12 PM EDT |
Quoting:As if Google has treated Linux as much more than a red-headed stepchild over the years. Yes, but... Chromium actually *feels* like a native Linux application. Quoting:I'm getting tired of Firefox not being able to turn its back on any available memory. Well, prepare to be disappointed, because I don't see much difference in memory use ater the switch - on exactly the same workload. But my results are highly unscientific and YMMV :) |
| tuxchick Mar 03, 2010 4:46 PM EDT |
~/o Torn between two browsers, feeling like a fool
Loving both of you is breaking all the rules We don't have much real browser choice. For a time there were several good all-around Linux web browsers: Konqueror, Galeon, Firefox, and Opera. Konqueror has fallen way behind; there are many sites it cannot render correctly, or it gets hung on scripts and freezes. Galeon faded away, and Opera is closed source. Though it is one excellent web browser. Firefox has a number of annoyances; Linux users are at the back of the bus, and having gillions of plugins is nice, but they're chaotic and untrustworthy. There is no mechanism for sorting them by license, and no mechanism for requiring them to remain up-to-date. So lots of them are out of sync with Firefox releases, and some never catch up. Firefox is pretty much it if you want an open source browser that works for all sites, add Opera if you don't mind closed-source. Epiphany, Arora, and Dillo are all nice lightweight graphical web browsers, but there are a lot of sites they can't handle. Chrome? How open is it really? |
| herzeleid Mar 03, 2010 4:52 PM EDT |
@tc - if you don't mind adding opera, why not chrome? |
| tuxchick Mar 03, 2010 5:08 PM EDT |
herzeleid, I do mind adding Opera, because it is closed-source. |
| herzeleid Mar 03, 2010 5:39 PM EDT |
Ah, pardon my misunderstanding. It seemed as though you were saying opera is fine as long as you don't mind closed source, but chrome is unacceptable. At any rate, what I want in a browser is that it performs well and is a fully supported, native application on my platform of choice, which is linux. I have no problem whatsoever with commercial vendors creating cool closed source apps for linux. |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 03, 2010 5:49 PM EDT |
I love my keyboard and detest the evil rat (mouse/trackball). Sadly no other browser has something like Vimperator, so I'm sticking with Firefox. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 03, 2010 6:31 PM EDT |
> @ the Bobs: Hehehe, that sounds like we're living together. Have Konqueror and FireFox, use FireFox when Konqueror can't handle the load, such as javascript and YouTube, haven't installed anything else. I adore competition, because it makes even the established players pay attention and make their products better. Ok, not _always_ better, just newer. |
| hkwint Mar 03, 2010 7:52 PM EDT |
Quoting:if you don't mind adding opera, why not chrome? At least it doesn't pretend to be 'open'. When something is closed and the manufacturer says it's closed, I can live with it. Therefore, I live(d) with WinXP for work, .doc, Opera, PTC's .drw and what have you. When something is open and the manufacturer says it's open, it's preferable over closed. When something is half open but advertized as being open I will avoid it if possible. That goes for OOXML, Mono/Silverlight, Android, Chrome(/ium) and the likes. |
| herzeleid Mar 03, 2010 9:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:When something is half open but advertized as being open I will avoid it if possible.hmm. dunno, I'm having a hard time working up any righteous indignation about this issue. maybe I'm missing something? So, you're saying that google claims that the chrome browser is open source, but the source isn't in fact available? If that's not the issue, exactly what is? |
| jezuch Mar 04, 2010 3:13 AM EDT |
Quoting:Chrome? How open is it really? Chrome? It doesn't matter. Chromium? You can check for yourself on its project page how open it is: http://code.google.com/intl/pl/chromium/ |
| Scott_Ruecker Mar 04, 2010 3:44 AM EDT |
I am using FF and Chrome about 50-50 now I must admit. They both have their advantages for me. I tend to do my work surfing in FF and my non-work surfing in Chrome but then I am in Chrome now as I write this so..uhh..yeah. |
| azerthoth Mar 04, 2010 2:30 PM EDT |
@Scott isnt it nice to know that google knows that you did it too? That alone should remove any doubts as to if using it is appropriate. If the answer is yes, then hey, I guess security isnt one of the reasons you use linux. Chrome has innovated a few things, FF was smart enough to implement them as well. Page isolation being the big one. |
| ComputerBob Mar 04, 2010 2:36 PM EDT |
Quoting:Chrome has innovated a few things, FF was smart enough to implement them as well. Page isolation being the big one.Has FF implemented page isolation? I've never used Chrome or Chromium, but I always considered page isolation to be their most tempting feature, so I'd be really happy to know if FF has implemented it, too. |
| TxtEdMacs Mar 04, 2010 3:29 PM EDT |
az, Don't be such a grouch. Google has your best interests in mind and when they err they apologize promptly: http://www.theonion.com/content/news/google_responds_to_priv... So what's your worry. Chrome now, ChromeOS and Android for everything else. Who needs Linux and that flossing stuff? YBT |
| herzeleid Mar 04, 2010 3:30 PM EDT |
Quoting:Who needs Linux and that flossing stuff?Why, google, for one! |
| TxtEdMacs Mar 04, 2010 3:35 PM EDT |
Herz, Linux is just a foundation to walk on, once Google is finished piling the dirt on top you will never know it was there. YBT |
| herzeleid Mar 04, 2010 3:40 PM EDT |
TxtEdMacs - I dunno, it's pretty hard to hide all that power. If you put a 426 mopar hemi in a nissan pickup, you can cover the engine with mud, but still there's no mistaking it. |
| Scott_Ruecker Mar 04, 2010 4:04 PM EDT |
Tracking or no tracking Azer, once you can Google yourself and you are the first thing that comes up does it matter? I am not worried about what may or may not be on record in my name with Google, I have been using G-mail, Docs, Reader and Calendar every day for 3+ years now. If I wanted to hide from anyone I have done a terrible job doing it..;-) |
| azerthoth Mar 04, 2010 4:04 PM EDT |
@CB it's in the current FF4alpha |
| ComputerBob Mar 04, 2010 4:16 PM EDT |
Quoting:@CB it's in the current FF4alphaThanks - I'll have to do some homework on that. |
| azerthoth Mar 04, 2010 7:24 PM EDT |
@CB, it's coming even earlier than I thought. SMK has a blurb on it. http://blog.internetnews.com/skerner/2010/03/mozilla-lands-o... |
| ComputerBob Mar 04, 2010 8:21 PM EDT |
@az - That's certainly good news, and please correct me if I'm wrong about this, but it's my understanding that there are two different types of isolation on the horizon: plugin isolation and global page isolation. Plugin isolation will be rolled out first, and it will prevent one bad plugin from crashing the entire browser. Then, later on, global page isolation will isolate each tab from the others, to prevent one bad site from crashing the entire browser. |
| azerthoth Mar 04, 2010 8:35 PM EDT |
Not being 100% up to speed on it, just coming from random readings while scouring the net for something interesting, I think thats correct. |
| ComputerBob Mar 04, 2010 8:47 PM EDT |
Yup, I used that exact same rigorous research methodology. ;) |
| hkwint Mar 06, 2010 8:45 PM EDT |
Quoting:google claims that the chrome browser is open source, but the source isn't in fact available? If that's not the issue, exactly what is? Open source is less important these days. Consider this: -Windows is open source, -TiVo software is open source, -LiMo is open source, -Android is open source, -XMMS was open source. -OOXML is open source. -Mono is open source. In case someone didn't know: -Windows is open source, but only to selected parties such as the Russian / Chinese government, -TiVo is open source, but not everybody can change the code and still have it work on the TiVo device -LiMo uses open source software, but the platform is considered 'closed' as only companies which are LiMo members are supposed / able to change source code, -Android is open source which means you can get and study the source. However, the project is rather closed as not everybody can contribute and it's not transparent what's done with user input and filed bugs. -XMMS was open source, but only the three developers were able / allowed to commit new code. -OOXML is open source (well, at least 98% of it), meaning you can get the specs. However, it was "code dumping", meaning it didn't came into existence as open source. Some huge project that didn't came into existence as "open source" but was later 'open sourced' (Java maybe?) is not really 'workable open source'. -Mono is open source, but it isn't the Mono project that decides on future features, because most of the time it will include new features Microsoft puts in Silverlight. Mainly, 'open source' is used as an excuse by companies these days to claim something is 'open' while they still remain in full control. So open source is not that interesting. IMHO, "open source" as we used to know it is dead. There are many grades in how open something is, and those need to be taken in consideration as well. If a project and its development are 'open', that's what's important. Examples: -Are discussions open? For OOXML, the ECMA discussions are closed. -Is everybody able to add to the discussion of future roadmaps and 'vote' for changes? For OOXML, non - corporate entities can't steer where it goes. -Is the bug handling process open? For Android, you file a bug to a black box and something might come out of it, you can't change the process in the black box however. -Is the project / entity which produces the software an open entity? Sun, Microsoft, Google etc. are not open entities like for example Debian etc. So, Opera is closed, its company is, OK, I can live with it. Debian is open, the entity which makes Debian is open, OK, can live with it. But things like OOXML, Mono, Android, Chrome(ium?) etc. are advertized as "open", though only the source is open. I have my doubts about these projects, most of the time only the source code is open. |
| gus3 Mar 06, 2010 9:29 PM EDT |
I use the term "visible source" when one can see and study the code, but not modify it. Freedom 1 of the Free Software Definition is incomplete in this case. http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 07, 2010 6:03 AM EDT |
@Gus: Alternatively, the term "Free Software" starts to make sense again. Something can be open source but not free software. |
| dinotrac Mar 07, 2010 10:21 AM EDT |
Sander - I have gone back to using "Free Software" for several years now, for a variety of reasons. The best, to my mind, is related to the problem you described. "Open Source", as a marketing pitch, is a to businesses, but a geek pitch, emphasizing something that geeks care about and which, in the end, isn't even the most important aspect of free software. Yes -- it is important that you can see the code. It is important that you can modify the code, but those are both components of the freedom that actually most to a business: the ability to use the software (which includes the ability to modify it as needed) to make your business run better, more efficiently, and/or more profitably. I've used free software in corporate settings for years, and only rarely did I ever have to modify code. The freedom to bring up copies when and where we needed, to incorporate them into streams of tasks, to put them on big and small machines, to pilot ideas without having to go through legal, financial, or contract hoops is a very big deal. |
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