For me...
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| r_a_trip Feb 24, 2010 2:34 PM EDT |
...it is. I've got too much stuff going on in my life at 35 and too little time to do it all. Distro hopping only occurs when the situation calls for it. |
| bigg Feb 24, 2010 3:08 PM EDT |
Distro-hopping is not supposed to be a permanent state of affairs. I can understand testing distros and maybe even moving just for the heck of it. But the goal should be to find distros closer to what you need, and then stick with it. I agree with the author that all distros are getting better, in large part because of hardware support, but there are still big differences under the hood. Compare Gentoo, Arch, and Slackware with Ubuntu, Mandriva, and Mint, or Debian and Zenwalk, and you are talking about some very big differences. Not all users are looking for the same thing. The only way to know which is best is to try a bunch of them. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 24, 2010 4:23 PM EDT |
When I first looked into Linux, I liked the "community development" model of Debian, so I tried that. Then I tried a few others, used RedHat and some specialty distributions, Knoppix and PCLinuxOS for LiveCDs, but always came back to Debian. Trying more than one is the only way to learn. But it must be up to the individual to do it, because change is something they themselves have to deal with. |
| Ridcully Feb 24, 2010 5:28 PM EDT |
Yes........I'd agree with the points made by everybody above. Personally, about 10 years ago, I bounced all over the shop as new versions came out, but principally assessing Red Hat, Mandrake, SuSE and a couple of others...Then, around the time before Novell took over SuSE, I began to return to SuSE more often because I loved its reliability, stability and ease of use. Finally, I purchased the boxed set plus manuals of SuSE 9 and since then, I have been firmly welded onto that distribution and currently run openSUSE 11.0 Whether or not I stay depends on whether I can finally swallow KDE4 ~ but that is another and very different story and set of reasons. I find that knowing the quirks and operational styles of one distribution reasonably well is time saving and stress reducing........so, I stay with what I know, but encourage newcomers to try Ubuntu first. |
| dinotrac Feb 24, 2010 5:39 PM EDT |
Sounds familiar, with an ironic tip of the hat to both Bob and Rid -- I started out with Debian 1.?? 14 years ago. Stayed with it until they screwed over my KDE over the QT licensing flap. Tried a few others -- including the Red Hat and the late, lamented Caldera Linux with the Lizard installer -- before settling on SuSE. Stayed there through OpenSuSE 10.4, but have been at Ubuntu the last couple of years out of KDE 4.X disgust. |
| jdixon Feb 24, 2010 5:50 PM EDT |
Well, I started with Slackware in 1994. Red Hat wasn't out yet and Debian was really just getting started. I've tried Red Hat, Mandrake, Debian, Mepis, Ubuntu, and Mint (and probably a few others I've forgotten) over the years. For new users, I think I'd recommend Mint, Mepis, or Mandriva. For me, I've never found anything that works better than Slackware, so that's what I've stayed with. |
| gus3 Feb 24, 2010 5:51 PM EDT |
Every time I've left Slackware, I've regretted it. The sole exception is when I was using SLAMD64 and BlueWhite64, because Slackware had no official 64-bit version. Two days after Patrick Volkerding put up the 64-bit Slack packages, I was happily back in Slack-land. |
| herzeleid Feb 24, 2010 6:42 PM EDT |
Quoting:I've got too much stuff going on in my life at 35Ah, to be 35 again.... whippersnappers these days... In any case, distro hopping is a great way to learn. I'm glad I started with SLS, and that I ran slackware for 3 years. I benefitted from my years spent with redhat, and later, fedora. I learned a lot from SUSE, SLE and opensuse - and I'm happy I started running ubuntu in 2008 - it's made me a debian fan. There are some distros I haven't tried, but one of these days... Rock, LFS, gentoo and other ricer distros beckon! |
| dinotrac Feb 24, 2010 6:49 PM EDT |
>Ah, to be 35 again. I was thinking r_a sounds old before his(?) time. I was 43 when I installed my first copy of Debian on a home-built K6. Still had time and desire to play around. |
| phsolide Feb 24, 2010 8:06 PM EDT |
I'm 49 and I just started to experiment with Arch linux. I have been a staunch Slackware user since about 2003, but I just felt the need to experiment. Arch's "rolling revisions" and emphasis on bleeding edge seemed like a nice counterpoint to Slackware's periodic all-or-nothing upgrades and emphasis on stability. Why wouldn't you distro-hop? PCs are cheap, no reason not to have a "stable" and an "experimental" PC to try stuff out on. |
| vainrveenr Feb 24, 2010 9:24 PM EDT |
Quoting:Then I tried a few others, used RedHat and some specialty distributions, Knoppix and PCLinuxOS for LiveCDs, but always came back to Debian.It seems that a number of current Ubuntu-users have similar sentiments about distro-hopping back to Debian; this from the recent comments arising from Shuttleworth's announcement that Ubuntu Lucid Lynx is to have Facebook and Twitter enabled by default. - Read Shuttleworth's telegraphed plans at 'Ubuntu's Lucid Lynx to Facebook and Twitter you' found at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/24/lucid_lynx_shuttlewo... - Read the Debian-trending comments to this (some heated!) at http://forums.theregister.co.uk/forum/1/2010/02/24/lucid_lyn... Quoting:I've tried Red Hat, Mandrake, Debian, Mepis, Ubuntu, and Mint (and probably a few others I've forgotten) over the years. For new users, I think I'd recommend Mint, Mepis, or Mandriva.For more info on Debian and its derivatives (other than the widely-popular Ubuntu), one can re-review the tried-and-true DistroWatch.com site. E.g., - Debian; http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=debian - Mint; http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mint - MEPIS; http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=mepis - PCLinuxOS; http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=pclinuxos |
| jdixon Feb 24, 2010 11:19 PM EDT |
> ...no reason not to have a "stable" and an "experimental" PC to try stuff out on. Memory and disk space are even cheaper. There's no need to have a second PC with all the Free/free virtualization options out there. Just install a one of KVM/Qemu/VirtualBox/VMware Server and use a virtual machine. |
| Ridcully Feb 25, 2010 2:29 AM EDT |
I find it fascinating to see how others often deal very differently with similar problem situations. Here's mine "jdixon"......purely because I have never bothered or wanted to master the virtual box software and because it suits my unusual situation. Our home runs on solar electrical power and eventually I realised that moving to laptops cut down on power consumption enormously.......and so all computers here are laptops........To try out a new distro, I keep a number of hdd's.......and it is a matter of a couple of minutes to swap over a test hdd and away I go.........installation etc. Very simple, very reliable and never touches any critical data on the master drive. Of course, that's "MY" solution, but others may find it cumbersome. I guess it is always individual tastes. |
| r_a_trip Feb 25, 2010 5:57 AM EDT |
I was thinking r_a sounds old before his(?) time. Yep, I'm male. Old before my time? I always thought it was a busy social life combined with a full-time job. My boyfriend likes to go places, meet people and entertain them at our place. Fun to do, but a serious drain on "me" time. Add to that the fact that my better half likes stability on the main computer and there isn't much room for experimenting. He reluctantly lets me keep my VirtualBox ;) I've unsuccesfully mucked about with Red Hat 5.2, SuSE 6.x back in the day. Kept mucking with SuSE as the secondary dual boot system until 2000, then made the plunge and made it my primary system (after Windows crapped out on me for the umpteenth time). From 2000 till 2005 I kept sniffing at different distro's, while having SuSE as the primary OS. After the Novell purchase I had a short bout with Mandrake (I had no confidence that Novell would be a good steward). In 2004 I hopped on Warty Warthog and since then it has mostly been Ubuntu. The sniffing has continued in Virtual Machines, but too many options and really too little time to properly dive in. I had a short episode a few weeks back with bare metal hopping, because I'm not particularly fond of the current direction Canonical is going with Ubuntu (More Mono, mucking with default package selection, BING(?!?), plans for a thin shim acting as a bonafide "Ubuntu" music store). It wasn't too successful on my end. I was pleasantly surprised with Fedora 12, but it still is a little Red Hattish and it isn't as far in the "it just works" department. There really is a lot of polish in Ubuntu. After the first week of Fedora 12 I desperately wanted to just type "aptitude install" and have stuff "automagically" appear and work well. Fedora needed much more basic fiddling. Debian proper was a very mixed bag. First, the Debian project really needs to refresh their website. Completely unintuitive. Then we have Debian itself. Lenny was too stale for me. I have ext4 partitions and wasn't planning on reverting them back to ext3 (too much stuff on them). I then stumbled upon the Debian Live CD, worked like a charm. Loved it. Too bad that it doesn't have an option yet to install to harddisk. The next option was Testing, which was a complete mess on the main computer. It installed, sort of booted, but I've never seen so many bugs hit me on the desktop as with Testing (month of Februari). Maybe I just had bad timing, but I absolutely couldn't sell my boyfriend on that hot mess. (He gracefully let me have my distrolife crisis though). In the end I put my principles back in the fridge and reverted back to Karmic Koala (much to the relief of my BF). Maybe Ubuntu really is an ancient African word that means "can't configure Debian". I will keep an eye on the antics of Canonical. If it does get worse and I'm no longer able to close my eyes, It'll probably be Fedora 13. Until then, it is easier to stay on Ubuntu. Although my first encounter with Warty seems like yesterday, I've been on Ubuntu for 5 years now. I know the quirks and know how to deal with them. I just haven't got the time to spend hours to discover the new ins and outs of a different distro. I have 40 hour work weeks, my boyfriend has 40 hour work weeks, we have a very busy social life, we also need to run a household. I could claim distro hopping time, but my boyfriend doesn't want to be a computer widower and I don't want to make him one. Plus, my BF expects things to just work and he is a lot stricter in that requirement than me. I'm lucky he lets me keep the main desktop on Linux (Ubuntu is probably instrumental). On his laptop he happily uses Windows most of the time (it is a dual boot config with Ubuntu). |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 25, 2010 10:12 AM EDT |
JD, > There's no need to have a second PC with all the Free/free virtualization options out there. I used VB for just that, to see how well the 64-bit transition has been going. Maybe I'm running on old information (very likely), with the talk of having to run 32-bit apps in 32-bit jails, or trying to run the -amd64 kernel with everything else 32-bit, and "problems" there by. Anyway everything seemed to work, but I never levered my tushie out of my comfortable -686 install to actually do it. R_A, > Plus, my BF expects things to just work and he is a lot stricter in that requirement than me. My Mom dropped in for a couple of weeks, since her HP laptop decided to give itself a mother-board-ectomy (craziest thing I've ever seen, "network" just won't work. Not built-in wifi, not cabled ethernet, not USB wifi. Nothing. Other than that, the machine is fine. HP says it's a known problem, $400 please.) she wanted to get a new system and get on the road. For her "just works" is paramount, too. However, she's seen Vista and Win7 and how much trouble her friends have with virii et. al, so the fact that Linux, once installed, "just works", is exactly what she wants. I'll echo that "ah, to be 35 again". Just physically, please, I don't want to lose what I've learned. |
| dinotrac Feb 25, 2010 10:44 AM EDT |
r_a - Understood, and highly envious of your full-time work week. Sigh. OTOH -- at 43, I had a full-time job, 3 hour daily commute, and 2 kids. So There! |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 25, 2010 2:00 PM EDT |
My "trajectory," if you will, in Linux and BSD on the desktop has led to my having less and less time to deal with breakage, configuration and setup of my machines. I'm most comfortable in the .deb-based world, so I have been sticking with Debian and Ubuntu. I maintain maybe a half-dozen machines at any one time, and they're all old. I run Ubuntu in the cases where the hardware and the user likes it. Often Ubuntu won't load from CD or install, and if the hardware is anemic, Debian does a lot better (as does OpenBSD and Puppy Linux , which I recommend for certain cases). My main laptop is running Debian Lenny for a variety of reasons, the chief one being that my other laptop with Ubuntu, aside from a good deal of breakage between 8.04 and 9.10, became unusable when its LCD screen developed a major crack. I already had the other laptop set up with Debian and encrypted LVM for a test, so I just took the backups from the Ubuntu laptop and loaded them in. Since I now have Debian Lenny doing pretty much everything I want, I'm sticking with it. I have been testing Debian Squeeze (in my own not-quite-cricket way with Sidux 2009-04, which mimics Debian Sid as it stood in late 2009) and Ubuntu Lucid, and that has been going much, much better than expected. The Debian Multimedia repository http://debian-multimedia.org/ has been instrumental in my ability to be a happy Debian user, and I recommend it for everybody using Debian who wants all the audio and video to work. As one commenter mentioned above, I've had trouble running Debian Testing. I can't say that I won't try it again. Should some newer hardware come my way (I need a new desktop box and am unsure how new), I might load Ubuntu on it. I mentioned Puppy Linux http://puppylinux.com/ and http://puppylinux.org/ above. I've had quite a bit of success with it in the past, but I tend not to run it as my main distro because I like the update mechanisms and huge repositories of "full" distros. I realize that they way you update Puppy is to burn a new live CD and then upgrade your pup_save file that way, but the separation of the pup_save, which maxes out at 2 GB (I think), and other storage on the hard drive isn't something I'm too crazy about. However, for really old hardware with low amounts of RAM, it remains a great way to make it usable. |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 25, 2010 2:06 PM EDT |
@Ridcully: If you ever write up all those reasons and things concerning KDE 4.0 or want to share it with others.. Submit it to me and I'll post it. That goes for the rest of you too. As for myself, I'm still hopping. I have Fedora 12 sharing 80 gigs with XP on a laptop and Ubuntu 8.10 on my main desktop with all my favorite KDE apps installed over Gnome. I just cannot seem to get used to the 4.0 desktop so Gnome has reeled me in. |
| Ridcully Feb 25, 2010 6:46 PM EDT |
@Scott_Ruecker......Thankyou, that is most generous and kind of you. I confess I had my fingers burnt last year when I tried to move to KDE4.2 and found it so complex, unstable and different compared with KDE3.5 that since then I have decided that until KDE4 reaches KDE4.5 it probably will not have the characteristics I want. In a nutshell, all I want is what KDE3.5 does. So my first reaction in KDE4 would be to turn off everything in the way of fancy stuff, and try to get a classical menu style, a window that allows me to place icons and files (if necessary) on it, Konqueror as a file manager behaving the same way as it does now, a trash can on the window for goodness sakes; the last time I tried to use KDE4, I found the trash can was buried inside Dolphin and that was where it was "gonna be".......However, when openSUSE brings out 11.3, I will give KDE4 another whirl. What concerns me is that this "simplification" process is NOT just a matter of "one click".....it is many clicks, and so far, it has been trial and error over a considerable time, especially as you look into unfamiliar menus and choices. What has me quite worried is that KDE4 is turning people "off" KDE.......Sure, I know there are those out there with hands in the air all declaiming that KDE4 is the answer to a maiden's prayer and I am simply refusing to accept that there must be change.....but ultimately, my personal choice always boils down to the fact that my window manager is what I like and am prepared to use on the desktop and that implies also my own comfort in using a piece of software.......So far, I am very comfortable with KDE3.5 ; every attempt last year to use KDE4 ended in disaster and complete discomfort.....even a job as simple as trying to get Konqueror in KDE4 to have the same actions and views as in KDE3.5 ended up as a fiasco ~ and I believe that this is quite possible, but I couldn't do it. My perspective on KDE4 continues to be that it was designed by software developer's for software developers and their satisfaction, but not for the satisfaction of the previous user welded onto KDE3.5 because of that software's stability, ease of use and as always, user satisfaction with a desktop that did everything simply without fuss. In my various posts I have in the past often put forward the view that the best thing that the KDE4 team could do would be to have in place a single KDE4 menu selection which made the KDE4 desktop look and behave virtually identically to the KDE3.5 desktop, same menus, behaviour, etc............and then when the user was comfy, let them turn on as much of the bells and whistles as they liked.........as far as I know, that has either never been heard by the KDE4 team, or ignored by them. Yet to me, that is so obvious a simple way to get everybody back on side that I am unable to understand why it has never been implemented. |
| dinotrac Feb 25, 2010 7:04 PM EDT |
Ridcully - Nailed it. Quoting: My perspective on KDE4 continues to be that it was designed by software developer's for software developers and their satisfaction, but not for the satisfaction of the previous user welded onto KDE3.5 because of that software's stability, ease of use and as always, user satisfaction with a desktop that did everything simply without fuss. |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 25, 2010 8:29 PM EDT |
I 2nd that Dino.. |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 25, 2010 10:48 PM EDT |
Coming from my perspective, not liking KDE much, after a year of so using GNOME I have enjoyed using KDE 4.3 the little bit that I have. I can see moving over to KDE 4.x in the future. I'm not doing it yet, but it's not out of the realm of possibilities. |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2010 12:06 AM EDT |
@Scott_Ruecker.........There was an article that "tuxchick" wrote a little while back that explored one particular area of KDE4 and the difficulties with the processes it dealt with. In a response, Aaron Siego was pretty scathing about the article because she challenged various principles of KDE4 and how it operates with its menus. She is another person who has written that she found considerable discomfort in using KDE4 and I think I recall one of the points she made was that whereas a process in KDE3.5 can be initiated by a single click, it may take a series of clicks to do the same thing in KDE4.x . Aaron's replies and rationalizations to tuxchick were, in my opinion, a put-down. He simply disagreed with her, gave his own reasons and then stated he was off to do some real work on software. The points that she, myself and others have made and continue to make seem always to have this result: the KDE4 team considers that you just don't understand the wonderful work that they are doing and I have more than a suspicion that they consider the complainant as a stubborn "Luddite" whose rants can be ignored. Look, I accept that things do change, but you need somewhere firm for one foot while you figure out if the ground under the next step will hold you.......KDE4 threw that principle away. Frankly, everything I could say has already been said........and from where I sit looking at the results: ignored. As an example of how KDE4 has moved to provide the satisfaction of the developer, let me suggest the best idea of this comes about with "plasmoids". Everything is now a "plasmoid". Even the desktop is a plasmoid, if I have this right and that shows you how confused I am about what KDE4 is trying to do. From what I can understand, plasmoids are probably programmable icons....aren't they ? Right......but if so, what earthly use do I personally have for such an object if I am not a programmer and cannot program them ? Or the typist in a big firm ? Or the Joe Blow sitting down each night to email his girlfriend etc. etc. Plasmoids are there for the developer, the tinkerer, but for the standard user, what on earth can you do with a plasmoid except take and use a plasmoid that some software developer has developed. And there is the magic phrase: that some software developer has developed. I have no interest in programming; none !!!!! So, unless you are a developer or..................but I have said this already. |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 26, 2010 12:38 AM EDT |
All GNOME has to do is make everything depend on Mono and we'll really be in a pickle. |
| mortenalver Feb 26, 2010 5:36 AM EDT |
Ridcully: the "everything is a plasmoid" principle makes it simple to reorganize the desktop for different purposes (desktop, netbook, whatever, maybe some educational children's desktop), because all components of the desktop are interchangeable. This is a more flexible architecture than having dedicated components that can only play the role of dock icons, panel launcher etc., and it is probably a significant advantage for future development. All of this are advantages to the developers, not something the user would care about directly. But what benefits the developers benefits the users in the longer term. |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2010 7:44 AM EDT |
@mortenalver.............M'Lud, the prosecution rests; the defendant has more or less implied precisely what the prosecution has been saying: KDE4 is a developers' window manager, not a user's window manager; it is designed to allow the developers to put this window manager into a multitude of devices; a sort of Swiss army knife that does everything rather than being a "bread and butter knife" that does one thing really well. And this mortenalver is precisely the point I and others are trying to get across: we don't NEED a developer's window manager; we just want one that is easy to use, precisely the same as KDE3.5 is easy to use. In KDE3.5, things are fixed in what they do, it is stable, simple, and understandable. Reorganisation as you suggest is fine, if you want to reorganise the desktops for all those applications you are suggesting and I see where you are coming from loud and clear.......but that does NOT solve the plain desktop that is needed by the business typist, etc. as I have said in my posts above. Advantages in the decades ahead do not solve the user problems right now, and let me repeat again: the average user is NOT a programmer, he or she does not need the programming ability of plasmoids. However the KDE4 team has decided that we do not know what is best for our use but they do......to me, this is arrogance of the worst kind, but then I see it from a user's perspective, not a developer's perspective. |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2010 8:08 AM EDT |
And as an addendum.......this sort of situation is now evolving into numbers of web/blog comments which indicate that the person making them is carefully examining options such as Xfce or Gnome, purely because those window managers are perceived as being far better for simplicity and user comfort than KDE4. In my posts above, I suggested that there be a method within KDE4 which made it simulate KDE3.5 to give a "comfort zone" to KDE3.5 users.......allowing them to bring in KDE4 attributes as and when they needed them or were comfortable with them. I still consider that to be the best option of all, but I don't hold my breath. I will reluctantly give up KDE if I must, but no-one will force me to opt for a complex window manager that is not designed with user comfort in mind. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 8:36 AM EDT |
mortenalver -- >But what benefits the developers benefits the users in the longer term. And to the world at large, I think you need to provide me with a nice large house, a Gulfstream, a Bentley for the family, a Ferrari for me, and a Mini Cooper for going down to the mailbox at the end of my driveway. All of these would benefit me greatly and, in the longer term, would benefit you as well. What's that you say? You don't think that would be of any benefit to you? You ignorant and ungrateful pile of pus! What gives you the right to think that you know what is easier for you to use, or what things make you more efficient? Make me happy so that I can do as I please. I really have no time or patience for stupid little troll creatures like you. Once I am done with MyLife4, I must move on to th MyLife5, where you provide me with an inflatable space station and fill the Grand Canyon with cherry Jello. You probably won't like that, either. |
| mortenalver Feb 26, 2010 8:37 AM EDT |
I won't claim that KDE4 ought to be good for you today - it's not quite there for me either. But you shouldn't be so quick to reject the point that being a "developer's window manager" could make it a whole lot better for you later on. A good architecture can mean that work progresses faster and can make it easier to recruit new developers. That's what I meant about "the longer term". I also think you are overstating the problems of it not being similar enough to KDE 3.5, since you can still choose to use 3.5. |
| mortenalver Feb 26, 2010 8:49 AM EDT |
dinotrac: nice straw man. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 8:50 AM EDT |
mortenalver -- Something that is good for developers might or might not be good for users. There is no magic connection, other than the potential for making developers more productive and less error-prone. The key is whether the developers give rat's patootie about anybody but their precious little selves. In the case of the current KDE team, the answer is, ummmm, not entirely clear. |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2010 9:02 AM EDT |
Indeed I can mortenalver, and as a matter of fact, that is exactly what I am doing and using now ~ KDE3.5 on openSUSE 11.0. In fact, in order to prolong my use of KDE3.5 as long as possible, I am shifting all of my data and files to an installation of openSUSE 11.1 which still supports KDE3.5 and will still be supporting it after support for openSUSE 11.0 comes to an end. But that only puts the "evil day" off ~ it doesn't solve the problem which is that KDE3.5 is no longer being supported by developers, despite the fact that I believe it is currently a better option than either Xfce and the present Gnome.......Sooner or later, KDE3.5 will have to be discarded. I have written in a post above that I believe that KDE4.5 is probably the first iteration of KDE4 that will approach the user friendliness of KDE3.5 and I still think that is pretty close. Right now, I put KDE4.x around KDE3.2 or perhaps KDE3.3, but again this is MY perspective and others can disagree as they choose, or not. The whole stupidity of this mess also illustrates another aspect which is that I personally believe that until KDE4.x is really good enough (and you imply that for me it is not, and I agree), KDE3.5 should at least be being maintained (not necessarily developed) as a rock solid option....but of course that isn't being done. A work under development is literally being presented as a "fait accompli" which you take as is, or revert to a non-supported version, if you can still get it onto your machine without any difficulty. I don't ever see a KDE3.5 fork; sooner or later the KDE4 team will succeed in obliterating KDE3.5; what worries me most however, is that they will have "turned off" or alienated a large percentage of their previous user base. What percentage is there in having bells and whistles only a few want to use ? Of course, that is an exaggeration, but you get the idea. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 9:07 AM EDT |
Rid - Give the KDE team credit, though. Their work has been very beneficial to GNOME, XFCE, and others. |
| mortenalver Feb 26, 2010 9:09 AM EDT |
Quoting:Something that is good for developers might or might not be good for users. There is no magic connection, other than the potential for making developers more productive and less error-prone. Of course there's no magic connection. But is it necessary to be so literally minded? Try to read a little between the lines. If I had said "might benefit" instead if "benefits", would you have been satisfied? Quoting:The key is whether the developers give rat's patootie about anybody but their precious little selves. In the case of the current KDE team, the answer is, ummmm, not entirely clear. Yes, that's very nice and useful. Attack the developer's personal motivations instead of discussing the software. This kind of statement is what in my opinion makes all the KDE4 discussions sound so stupid and childish. |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2010 9:10 AM EDT |
LOL........I hadn't quite thought of it that way...........yep, I guess the KDE4 team has improved the user base of those other WM's; well done indeed. (Exeunt stage left with very wry smile. :-) ) |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2010 9:19 AM EDT |
Umm......Mortenalver, one of the current leader's of the KDE4 team, Aaron Siego, has illustrated (in my opinion) precisely what dinotrac indicates is the case. Whether or not his post was one of frustration is not for debate, the point I make is that some very good criticism was made of KDE4 with excellent examples. Aaron chose, in my opinion, to answer in such a way that his reply was merely a put-down of what I and others thought was pretty good criticism. |
| mortenalver Feb 26, 2010 9:20 AM EDT |
Ridcully: my only reason for breaking into this discussion was to give a suggestion for why the plasmoid stuff *could* be a good idea even though you couldn't see any reason to get excited about it. But anything that looks like defending KDE4 gets shot down pretty quickly in this forum. |
| mortenalver Feb 26, 2010 9:26 AM EDT |
Ridcully: if you're talking about the Gwenview related posts, I can't quite agree with you. Aaron made some good points, as well as conceding that some things should be improved. But I can see that his style may rub a lot of people the wrong way sometimes. |
| DiBosco Feb 26, 2010 9:33 AM EDT |
Quoting:As an example of how KDE4 has moved to provide the satisfaction of the developer, let me suggest the best idea of this comes about with "plasmoids". Everything is now a "plasmoid". The counter argument to this though is that you can quite happily run KDE4.x in an almost identical way to 3.5 if you want. You don't _have_ to have plasmoids on your desktop, you can still put icons on the desktop, the start menu works in the same way and the toolbars work in a very similar way. The devices plugged in now comes in a pop-up menu which to me seems much neater than the old way of icons coming and going in the system tray; other than that, I really fail to see anything like a major difference from a user's point of view if you don't want to use the newer features. I find 4.3.2 _nicer_ than 3.5 and I still see a whole heap off fuss being made of something that has a very, very small learning curve and has a very, very small difference to the previous incarnation if you wish it to be that way. Also, for every user turned off KDE, you'll find a new user who is impressed by it. I suspect people in time will become used to it and actually grow to like it. Sometimes people just need time to get used to change. |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2010 9:33 AM EDT |
@Mortenalver........possibly, but equally I have seen articles on KDE4 run through LXer without a comment; it is purely that there has been debate here. On the other hand, I have seen enormous negative debates on Linux Today as well.......and I repeat, all of these debates take up the fact that KDE4 stepped outside the usual routine of development which is to move from the old to the new in a series of steady, digestable steps. And generally, included amongst them are some who find KDE4 marvellous to play with and tinker with. Just so you get the whole picture, I am immensely frustrated at not being able to employ KDE4 routinely. I would love to get Firefox 3.6 working fully and integrated into my desktop which is automatic for openSUSE but which remains at 3.0.18 for my current distribution. I am waiting rather impatiently for openSUSE 11.3 to come out in mid year because it will have KDE4.4 and I think/hope that it might at last be workable........so I keep watching and waiting. I don't want the bells and whistles of KDE4, but I do want to use its superior (I hope) software.........but so far, it has always come down to the line: not yet ! For me, it is still a work in development and not ready yet to be deployed as mission critical on MY desktop. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 26, 2010 9:45 AM EDT |
Ok, I'll attack the software. KDE4 sucks. It's cumbersome, annoying, disjointed. There's a cute place called "settings", that doesn't have all the settings. One must "know" that this particular part of the system has settings in this particular place. You know, INTUITIVE: Having done it before. The so-called "desktop", in "desktop" mode, has nothing what so ever to do with anyone's prior experience with a "desktop". The problems I had trying to figure out why this "desktop" didn't work like any other "desktop" would be enough to throw a user of any other GUI into fits, much less someone who has been using KDE for a decade. Really, Mort, it's not that the new programming style isn't "better", it may very well be. But I'M NOT A PROGRAMMER. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 9:47 AM EDT |
Hey mortenalver -- Read between what lines? There is no subtlety to this issue, no matter how hard you stumble over yourself to find some. The KDE developers screwed up royally, then got huffy because people didn't like having their lives screwed with. They've acted like spoiled little children and warrant that much respect. |
| mortenalver Feb 26, 2010 9:52 AM EDT |
dinotrac: ok, whatever... Bob: I don't disagree with your points. Especially the desktop thing is counterintuitive. It's not a problem for me since I know about the folder view mode, but it is certainly something that ciould put new users off. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 9:57 AM EDT |
mortenvaler - I get the impression that you are a newcomer to the world of free software. In case you don't know, bragging rights and reputation are among the major motivators to get involved in a free software project. You do something to help the community, you should get a little psychic reward for that. To this day, the linux kernel maintains a CREDITS file with the names of contributors. The flip side to that coin is this: If you disregard the community in your efforts, if you are selfish in your actions and your goals, you should (although chances are that you would be too much too arrogant under this scenario) expect to have opprobrium heaped upon you. |
| DiBosco Feb 26, 2010 10:15 AM EDT |
--- Deleted - I don't want to go round in circles on this again. Suffice it to say, you're a bunch of Luddites. :~p (Please note my emoticon here!) |
| mortenalver Feb 26, 2010 10:17 AM EDT |
Quoting:I get the impression that you are a newcomer to the world of free software. I guess that depends who you compare with. Quoting:The flip side to that coin is this: If you disregard the community in your efforts, if you are selfish in your actions and your goals, you should (although chances are that you would be too much too arrogant under this scenario) expect to have opprobrium heaped upon you. So what? Should I give up any hope of a sensible discussion just because some people proclaim that "They screwed up", and must by necessity be buried in a heap of [insert impressive word]? Must any discussion be hi-jacked by flames directed at the developers? |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 10:21 AM EDT |
Hmmm. Seems you understand neither hi-jacking nor flames. Hi-jacking means to take over a thread and to change its direction. Flames are pointless invective hurled for the purpose of making noise at the expense of communication. I'll grant some of the "eye of the beholder" room, but you were the one who opined that the KDE4 changes would trickle down to the users. It is utterly in point to keep in mind who the developers are and what they have demonstrated by their actions to date. |
| mortenalver Feb 26, 2010 10:28 AM EDT |
dinotrac: I think your definitions fit my use of the words pretty well. Perhaps "flames" was a little inappropriate. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 10:37 AM EDT |
mort - S'all right. I do get a little charged up. I am not an unbiased reporter. I had used KDE for more than ten years before feeling forced to switch away. I had even switched distributions from Debian to SuSE (that was long before OpenSuSE) when the whole QT licensing flap made KDE on Debian too painful to keep up. So, yeah, I'm a bit acidic on the issue. |
| mortenalver Feb 26, 2010 10:57 AM EDT |
:) I started using Linux around 2002-2003, but never settled completely on KDE or any other desktop. I never saw KDE 3.5 as perfection, so I probably miss it less than many others. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 26, 2010 11:00 AM EDT |
> I never saw KDE 3.5 as perfection No one has ever said anything to the contrary. The difference between KDE3 and 4 is that 3 _works_, and it's not just a matter of things that haven't been updated "yet". Basic usability has fallen. Decreased. Become worse. The transitions from 1 to 2, 2 to 3, did not have this regression. That's all. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 11:10 AM EDT |
Bob -- They had some regressions, but nothing remotely on this order. In fact, I had always felt comfortable installing betas on my day-to-day machine. Yeah -- some aggravations along the way, but nothing I couldn't live with for the notable improvements each new release brought. |
| jacog Feb 26, 2010 11:29 AM EDT |
Blergh. This whole "oooh, a KDE4 thread/article, let's take a dump all over it" thing is both childish and getting old. |
| bigg Feb 26, 2010 11:40 AM EDT |
It started with a discussion of distro hopping. |
| gus3 Feb 26, 2010 12:10 PM EDT |
Quoting:But anything that looks like defending KDE4 gets shot down pretty quickly in this forum.Just returning the favor to Aaron Siego. Seriously, this is what it comes down to: 1. The KDE project released alpha-quality code, with a general release version number. Their stated reason for doing so, was to increase the user base; by that, the general usage spectrum; and by that, the feedback on remaining usability issues. Releasing the code in that state was, in itself, a poor judgment call. 2. Where Windows has always hidden away "power user" options, so that the would-be power users had to search for them, KDE3 made everyone power users, even if the users didn't know it. Many learned. Then, suddenly, with KDE4, that option of learning how to be, and then being, a power user, got taken away. 3. The KDE project said they wanted feedback, but the broad choruses of "what the hell?" were met with silence, apathy, or derision (EDIT: or even outright hostility). It's one thing for a dozen people to carp, but when one can no longer count those dozens on one's fingers and toes, maybe there's something worth paying attention to in those complaints. Any one of these can do damage to a software project's reputation. All three of them, together, indicate Something Is Very Wrong, Charlie(tm). |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 12:36 PM EDT |
bigg - And, if you followed the thread, you will find that KDE played and plays a role in more than a few distro-hopping decisions these days. It certainly caused me to hop away from openSuSE. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 26, 2010 12:40 PM EDT |
Ok, Distro hopping. KDE4 has stopped my distro hopping. I'm sticking with Debian Lenny until I just can't stand it any more, because it has KDE3.5. |
| bigg Feb 26, 2010 12:54 PM EDT |
@dino I was just pointing out to jacog that it wasn't actually a "KDE 4 thread". The DE may well be a good reason to hop. I'm not complaining. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 1:36 PM EDT |
bigg - Sorry. Misread your intent. |
| ComputerBob Feb 26, 2010 1:59 PM EDT |
DE/WM-hopping can be very similar to distro-hopping. And if you do both at the same time, it can be hard to keep track of all the possibilities. That's why I'm very glad that I found KDE relatively early on in my distro-hopping, and I liked it so much that it guided my distro-hopping choices from then on. But after being a very happy and very productive KDE 3.5.x user since 2006, my recent experience with Debian Squeeze's KDE4 http://www.computerbob.com/guides/my_debian_adventure_3.php forced me to take a very serious look at my non-KDE options -- and even my non-Debian options. (!!!) As a result, I've been running Debian Squeeze with Xfce 4.6 for the past two-and-a-half weeks. At first, it seemed very spartan, compared to KDE 3.5.x. But after I tweaked it with a few Thunar custom actions and a few config edits, I began to find Xfce to be more and more just what I'm looking for in a DE/WM. I don't want or need my OS to include social networking features. I don't care about the semantic desktop or plasmoids or widgets or glitz. I just want my present and future computing experience to be at least as functional and efficient as my past computing experience has been. KDE4 (at least in Debian Squeeze) is nowhere near that point (yet?), and I have some doubts about whether it will ever get there. Because every time a new version of KDE4 is released, all the news stories gush about new social networking features, the semantic desktop, plasmoids, widgets and glitz. And every time I read articles and blogs and forum comments, I see people who apparently really care about social networking features, the semantic desktop, plasmoids, widgets and glitz, making fun of people like me, who just want their desktop to GET OUT OF THEIR WAY so they can get their work done as quickly and easily as they've done in the past. I didn't leave KDE. KDE left me. And apparently, the KDE devs are happy to have left people like me. So I found something to take KDE's place. I no longer gaze longingly at KDE4 as it fades away in my rear-view mirror. In fact, I would never have anticipated it, but I don't even miss KDE 3.5.10 any more. I feel like I have the same old excitement about my computer that I had in 2006, when I first started using Linux full-time instead of Windows. I'm FREE again -- no longer a slave to ANY DE or WM, but especially not to KDE. So, as soon as I have time, I plan to blow away my two Debian Squeeze KDE 3.5.10 installs and replace them with Debian Squeeze Xfce. And I also hope to have time soon to write about my Xfce experience. |
| hkwint Feb 26, 2010 3:54 PM EDT |
I want to distro-hop, but 'migrating to some other Distro' isn't that easy it seems, it requires some planning and efforts. Like "How do I do mdraid + lvm in another distro?" - which might lead to the question: "Do I still need mdraid at all?" Those reconsiderations might make someone (like me) doubt, and those doubts might lead to the 'safe conservative choice': "Just continue using the familiar bugs / known quirks" I note a minor-lock-in on my part. Like said above, most people are only familiar with the quirks of one distro. Becoming familiar with the quirks of another distro is hard. I finally know how to efficiently / quickly mix stable + unstable + untested on Gentoo, which probably takes quite some knowledge (I'd say it is very easy), but when I tried on Debian it was really different and I blew the whole system FUBAR, for example. Though FUBAR is relative: I couldn't repair it of course. Or when I tried Suse and couldn't manage the GUI I 'hopped' to the CLI and just started editing scripts etc, or tried to, only to find out files were at another place and had a really different structure and such. Hopping from KDE3 to KDE4 - even while not using KDE as my DE- was pretty hard too - even when on the same distro. I had to manually copy files from .kde to .kde4, and had to fight some battle with Akonadi and MySQL and tons of 'blockers'. Blockers is a way of saying: "Gentoo dependency hell", mainly caused by the migration from monolithic to modular packages (just like which happened with Xorg) and portage migration to 'package sets' in the near future. When doing some more fancy hopping I couldn't get X to boot, on modern Fedora and Ubuntu. And not all distro's support 'USB-images', for example for Ubuntu it's really hard to make it work. Ubuntu did boot, but it just didn't start X, and it wasn't easy to make it do so. In OpenSuse I dd'ed to /dev/sde1 instead of /dev/sde, and this is such 'beyond any repair' that I needed Windows (VirtualBox in Linux was OK though) to fix it. Apart from that, I wonder if I can copy my .kde4 dir from this distro to another and still have the same settings / e-mails in Kontact without 'data corruption', because after all it's my e-mail with some important passwords / letters / bills etc. in it. And I still don't know how any other distribution manages 'configuration file updates', one of the harder parts of using Linux in my opinion (at least it goes for Gentoo). And the init - system will probably be different, but I can live with that. As you might understand by now, most of my tries of distro-hopping weren't that successful and didn't encourage me to use anything else. openSUSE, advocated by the article - had a 'circular bug' first time I tried. There was a bug in the updater, which could be fixed by updating the updater, but because there was a bug in the updater the updater couldn't update itself. OK, it was easy to fix by using Smart Package Manager as HOWTO'd by SJVN - but it wasn't an 'inviting' experience. Fedora almost seemed to blew my monitor because it defaulted to Nouveau which was pretty much the same story / same faulty decision as "distro's defaulting to KDE4" I guess. Apart from that I fought for ages to have a working development env on Ubuntu (to get the latest Ralink drivers compiled as the newest ones weren't packaged back then) something that's just "working out of the box" on Gentoo. And I always get lost in those ncurses-menus like FreeBSD and Debian offer, sometimes I'm stuck somewhere midway installation and can't continue because I'm lost in the sheer labyrinth that those ncurses-UI's are. I'm a bit locked in to the OpenBSD / Gentoo way of 'sequentially doing things one by one in a one way direction' I guess, while if you use the Debian menus but something fails (like network or the user insisting he doesn't want 'swap' and Debian should p*** o** insisting I need it) you are dropped to a 'parent menu' and 'manually' through ncurses have to complete what the wizard was doing. So I guess it might not be needed to do distro hopping, but apart from that it's also quite hard to do on systems which you use for 'just getting work done'. Like any migration results aren't guaranteed, info corruption / loss may occur, it might mean another 20 hours of 'corfiguring' to your likening, another 20 hours of learning to deal with this distro, and another 20 hours of sheer desperateness when the new distro fails and you don't know how to recover. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 4:27 PM EDT |
Bob - I'd be mighty interested in your writeup. I haven't made much effort to tweak my XFCE, but would be interested in what it can do. Still trying to deal with the fact that I know what thunar is. > I didn't leave KDE. KDE left me. Oh yeah, and that hurt when you consider that I was using the beast long before it ever went 1.0. I even stuck with it when those silly critters at Debian screwed up my desktop in the name of hating the QT license. Ditched Debian, kept KDE> I'm still not settled into XFCE, but, after using it for well over a year, I guess I'd better start accepting it as my environment. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 26, 2010 4:27 PM EDT |
> I didn't leave KDE. KDE left me. Right there with you, Bob. One thing about WM/DM "hopping" is that I really, really like Debian for that. Debian populated menus in every WM that handles them, just install the WM and then select it from the installed list in KDM. One cute thing I've done to demonstrate the flexibility of Linux to someone who had never used anything but Linux was to open a second X session on F8 using a different Window Manager, like OLWM or LXDE, leaving KDE running on F7 and then switch back and forth between them. On distro hopping, I'd like to point out that I never distro hopped with my primary machine on which I get work done. Distro hopping is easy when doing a new install, rather than trying to replicate present functionality on a new distribution. |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 26, 2010 5:08 PM EDT |
Quoting:So, as soon as I have time, I plan to blow away my two Debian Squeeze KDE 3.5.10 installs and replace them with Debian Squeeze Xfce. I'm running one of my Debian Squeeze Xfce boxes right now (the converted Maxspeed Maxterm thin client with Via C3 Samuel CPU running at 500 Mhz, 256 MB RAM, 8 GB CF card as sole hard drive), and while it's not the best computing experience due to the hardware's age, it's better than you'd think. I had an Xfce problem recently - upon logging in the desktop was a blue screen with only a cursor. I eventually found a fix (hit alt-F2 and run xfce4-panel), but not until I had added GNOME and all that comes with it. So now I have Synaptic, the Update Manager, NetworkManager, all that stuff. I still like the "stripped-down" Xfce that Debian installs and have that configuration on my Compaq Armada 7770dmt (233 MHz Pentium II, 144 MB RAM). It runs a whole lot lighter than Xubuntu, which comes with a whole lot of GNOME as well but doesn't run as swiftly as Debian with Xfce and all the GNOME stuff running in the background. My newest computer was made in 2002. It runs Ubuntu, Fedora, just about everything. But the "older" stuff from 1999-2000 isn't terribly happy with everything you throw at it. I have yet to find a hunk of x86 hardware that won't run Debian. I wish they still supported SPARC 32 ... |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 26, 2010 5:15 PM EDT |
Seriously, don't "blow them away", just install XFCE and use it. No need to blow away anything, and it uses the same "Desktop" folder that already exists. Next time you log in, make sure to select "xfce" instead of "default" or "KDE" from the GDM or KDM options list, and it will remain selected as your default until you change it. Sorry I didn't see that "blow away" comment before, I would have been much more explicit about how really well Debian handles more than one WM at a time. I think I have 7 installed for "olwm: compute like it s 1992!" |
| ComputerBob Feb 26, 2010 5:27 PM EDT |
@Bob_Rob - I know that I wouldn't HAVE TO "blow away" KDE on my other two systems in order to switch them to Xfce. I just WANT to. ;) |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 26, 2010 5:30 PM EDT |
In my experience, the default installs of Debian and Slackware are much faster than most. Sure none of it is built from source like Gentoo and FreeBSD, but given how quickly this stuff changes, building from source is an exercise in endlessly waiting. Back in the Slackware 12.0/Debian Etch/Ubuntu and Xubuntu 6/7 days, on the very machine I'm using now I stacked up as many Xfce distros (with a bit of GNOME thrown in) as I could install (on a Via C3 Samuel, not everything will load). The tests weren't anywhere near Phoronix-level sophisticated. It was just me timing how long it took to boot, start various applications from an "unused" desktop and restarting the apps after quitting them. Not terribly scientific. But with Xfce, Slackware and Debian were very comparable. Xubuntu with Xfce was actually slower than Ubuntu with GNOME, leading me to continue to believe that there's not much of a performance penalty with Xfce over GNOME, and it's better to use what you like and not "settle" for Xfce just for a very small speed boost. The older the hardware, the more you notice these differences. On "newer" machines, which for me are any single-core processor with 2 to 3 GHz clock speed and 1 GB of RAM, I think any window manager runs more than acceptably well and at that point preference in terms of a working environment is everything. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 5:56 PM EDT |
>I think any window manager runs more than acceptably Haven't used Cinelerra, have you? |
| hkwint Feb 26, 2010 6:50 PM EDT |
Huh? Is Cinelerra a Window Manager? What did I miss?Quoting:On distro hopping, I'd like to point out that I never distro hopped with my primary machine on which I get work done. Neither did I, but I kinda did from WinXP to Gentoo trying to replicate most functionality, which took me about three years of dual booting. Moreover, I tried 'hopping' from WinXP to 'any'BSD, but I just couldn't replicate functionality: In OpenBSD I couldn't get the printer working, in NetBSD I couldn't boot my FAT-partitions, in FreeBSD I couldn't get OOo installed, for Slackware I couldn't get much 'real-life' support and then in Gentoo within two days all just suddenly worked. Quoting:building from source is an exercise in endlessly waiting. Yes it is. Hence my wish to hop. Nonetheless, I spent more than a week trying to make LPR work on OpenBSD, about two days before I found out NetBSD couldn't (reliably) mount FAT and about another week to find out FreeBSD wouldn't compile OOo (note: For Gentoo, you _don't_ compile OOo, but for FBSD you had to in the past). I fiddled for six hours with OpenSuse to make it just update the updater, I fiddled for another week to try to boot any non-Gentoo/TinyLinux from USB (mainly Kubuntu which - when it comes to USB-booting abilities - is just worthless). I spent another two days in KVM trying to make Debian use the newest vesa-driver before mixing stable / non-stable brought down my system FUBAR and left the whole mess unbootable, and unfixable by an unexperienced Debian-user like me. The last three months I haven't compiled anything in Gentoo apart from Firefox (3.6 was not available as precompiled in the beginning) and a 2.6.32 kernel. It's all stable, except for my 'broken' SATA-connector which from time to time halts my system. So it all depends I guess, precompiled or not doesn't mean all that much. Apart from you're absolutely right installing desktop-Gentoo normally takes multiple days. |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 6:58 PM EDT |
hkwint - No, Cinelerra is not a window manager, but doing much with it will make you want the lightest reasonable memory footprint from everything that is not Cinelerra, especially on a single core 1GB or so machine. |
| hkwint Feb 26, 2010 7:39 PM EDT |
As far as I understood from the presentation I once saw from one of the creators of Cinelerra it's not really intended to run on a (single) desktop. It's one of the most hardware-demanding apps a Linux user can have. Apart from Flash and/or KDE4 of course. |
| Steven_Rosenber Feb 26, 2010 8:23 PM EDT |
Quoting: ... I spent more than a week trying to make LPR work on OpenBSD ... I wasn't successful in this either, but I did get CUPS to work (there are a few extra steps, including finding your own drivers and entering the script to start the daemon). You do have to dig into the configuration files a bit in OpenBSD especially, but the end result is that you have a better understanding of how the system works. You do need time, though. The one thing that would make OpenBSD more useful to me personally would be easier upgrades. I've never successfully done an in-place upgrade of OpenBSD. I've since learned that most users don't upgrade, they reinstall. And they hack together scripts to restore things the way they want. I really enjoyed using OpenBSD, but I just don't want to spend the time necessary to get things working. Sure I learned a lot, but most Linux distros are so much easier that it's hard to justify spending all that time hacking on my OpenBSD install just to get things to work like HTML links in e-mail opening in my chosen browser. At the time I ran it on the desktop, I hadn't yet figured out the ways of my hinky CD/DVD drive (it likes DVD+R DVD-ROM and CD-ROM, hates CD-R), and the only way I could get a Unix/Linux system of any kind on it was via the floppy drive, and OpenBSD does have a single-floppy install image that includes a small kernel and pulls packages from the mirrors. That is pretty sweet. The lack of any Flash beyond Flash 7 in Opera (which is a bit hinky due to the Linux compatibility layer) was tough. I did finally get Java installed after a few marathon compiling sessions (which included manually gathering both source and binaries from about nine different places). There are plenty of packages for desktop OpenBSD users, but I'm not crazy about the six-month cycle ... |
| dinotrac Feb 26, 2010 8:25 PM EDT |
Hans - It does a lot better than the developer would have you believe, but, multicore is definitely better than single core and a render farm is better still. I have yet to set it up with a render farm, but my network has 3 amd64s on it, including 1 dual core and one hot-rod 3 core. Hmmmmm. |
| jdixon Feb 26, 2010 10:20 PM EDT |
> Any one of these can do damage to a software project's reputation. All three of them, together, indicate Something Is Very Wrong, Charlie(tm). Absolutely. And of the three, the third is the most unforgivable. And it's not just that they haven't listened, they've actively insulted those who complained. > And I also hope to have time soon to write about my Xfce experience. Please do. I normally use XFCE on my machine, and can always use good ideas. |
| gus3 Feb 26, 2010 10:36 PM EDT |
@jdixon: Noted, and revised. |
| Ridcully Feb 26, 2010 11:36 PM EDT |
@gus3.....Your three points are very nicely put and I thoroughly agree ~ especially with #3. There is no doubt at all in my mind that the KDE4 team is well aware of what they have done and the angst that they have created and still continue to create. My perception remains that they will continue to either ignore or deride these annoyances as the "baseless complaints of Luddites who just don't like change", even though the same basic problems are being fed to them again and again and again and from a wide variety of users. It has reached the stage where if they were to listen and act on what this angry user base is saying, then it would overturn their own cherished concepts of what they the developers believed the users wanted. (Mind you, as far as I am aware, "what the users wanted" has always been the KDE4 team's unilaterally taken position; it has never been as a result of a survey of actually what the users wanted.) As a result, we now have a group of developers who will do anything rather than address these complaints because to do so would be to admit they were quite wrong with the development philosophy and structure of KDE4. I have noted again with intense interest the comments about Xfce and it remains a serious option for my future desktop. It seems to me that Xfce retains simplicity while giving full control to the user, and, hey, that sounds awfully like KDE3.5, doesn't it ? |
| jacog Feb 27, 2010 7:45 AM EDT |
"a group of developers who will do anything rather than address these complaints" That is a complete and utter bull statement. There are many actual non-straw examples of the KDE team addressing user issues. Argh, I give up... |
| dinotrac Feb 27, 2010 7:59 AM EDT |
>Argh, I give up... Can't blame you. When you're on the wrong side of things, it can wear you down. As to complete and utter bull, perhaps you should think in terms of a hospital waiting room conversation. You are sitting with a loved one's cardiac surgeon: ". It's one very cool-looking heart. Best I've ever transplanted, in fact. Frankly, you've got a lot of nerve complaining about it. Only a complete and utter moron would fail to notice the beautiful stitch work. I know I put it in backwards from what you're used to., but it really looks much better that way. Look, I heard your complaints and I fixed up the arteries and spiffed up the valves. I even gave you an option to display a picture of a heart in the conventional position to make you more comfortable with the new heart. I don't know why you're being such a Luddite about this, and failing to appreciate all the effort I've put inot this thing just because the one feature you want -- beating -- isn't there." |
| jacog Feb 27, 2010 11:07 AM EDT |
Uh huh, yeah, that's totally the same thing. |
| dinotrac Feb 27, 2010 11:11 AM EDT |
jacog - Sigh. Never liked poetry, did you? |
| jacog Feb 27, 2010 11:26 AM EDT |
On the contrary, and I love a good metaphor. But notsomuch a crappy on with the sole aim of misrepresenting the truth. That's the sort of thing a lawyer might do. |
| hkwint Feb 27, 2010 11:51 AM EDT |
Hey Jaco, sounds like you know Dino? |
| gus3 Feb 27, 2010 12:05 PM EDT |
Beating heart, or not. Getting things done, or not. Nothing like spoon-feeding, huh? |
| dinotrac Feb 27, 2010 12:15 PM EDT |
>Nothing like spoon-feeding, huh? We try, gus. We try. Nothing can blind so effectively as a truth you don't want to see. |
| Ridcully Feb 27, 2010 5:35 PM EDT |
@jacog......I suppose I should say thankyou for your helpful, thoughtful, encouraging and generous comments ? Or perhaps not. I agree, what I wrote was in general terms, however I have been watching the KDE3.5 vs KDE4 debate intently and also had my fingers burnt several times over KDE4 (when I tried unilaterally to transfer) and its poor performance and abilities compared with the simplicity and power of KDE3.5 . Articles concerning the problems of KDE4 have been written again and again and as far as I can see, I am very correct when I say that the KDE4 team now will not listen to what these users and articles are saying because they criticise the underlying structure on which KDE4 was built. I am sure you are correct in that the KDE4 team certainly does respond to criticism and act on it by alterations to their software package, however I would put a rider on that and suggest that there is also selection: alterations are accepted iff (sorry, if and only if) they conform to the team's concepts of KDE4. What I and many others are saying consistently is that the baby was thrown out with the bathwater in the move from KDE3.5 to KDE4. What is now present is full of glitz and pretty and developer mode plasmoids, but it is not a simple, effective desktop for these users in the same way KDE3.5 was. You don't have to agree, but at least try to get the concept of what is being said by the other side. |
| DiBosco Feb 28, 2010 4:29 PM EDT |
By the same token, Ridcully, it's only fair and right that those of us who use KDE4 and find it not just a very good looking desktop, but also simple and very effective put *our* side of the story. I completely disagree with your synopsis that it's not simple and effective. I am totally mystified how a 3.5 user finds this version more than slightly different. I can see how there are a handful of things missing from 3.5, I can see that people are hacked off because versions 4.0-4.2 were rubbish. What I just don't get is how people think it's so different and ineffective because they have to learn how to do a few things in a slightly different way. So, I understand a lot of why people were disappointed, I even understand how bitterness and/or disappointment means that it will stop them accepting KDE has come along way (that's human nature), but I just do not get this whole thing about how different KDE is now. I think *this* is a truth people do not want to see. |
| tuxchick Feb 28, 2010 5:34 PM EDT |
DiBosco, there is a pretty big gap between putting out your side of the story, and telling people who don't agree with you that they are wrong, and discounting what they say. |
| ComputerBob Feb 28, 2010 5:40 PM EDT |
Instead of commandeering the KDE project, if the KDE devs had been forced to start a brand new DE with a different name that was exactly like KDE4 is now -- a DE that would have had to start with zero users and build up its popularity as it tried to compete with KDE 3.5.x, GNOME, LXDE, Xfce and all the others -- I think that they would be seriously struggling try to get users to switch to their new DE. But, unfortunately, that's not what happened. Instead, the KDE4 devs had the luxury of using the bully pulpit of the long-established KDE brand, and they knew that their new DE would turn KDE 3.5.x into an orphan. So instead of making sure that form followed function in their new DE, they repeatedly concentrated on form, with apparently much less regard for function -- safe in the knowledge that a large percentage of KDE 3.5.x users would eventually hold their noses, take the path of least resistance, and switch to KDE4, whether they really liked it or not. But I think that a growing number of KDE 3.5.x users resent that approach; resent being patronized and taken for granted; and are actively finding non-KDE replacements, instead of moving to KDE4. Time will tell, but I will continue to see KDE4 as the "New Coke" of Linux desktop environments -- at least until the devs concentrate on giving it at least as much basic functionality as KDE 3.5.10 -- instead of more and more Windows (sic) dressing. |
| DiBosco Feb 28, 2010 6:22 PM EDT |
Quoting:DiBosco, there is a pretty big gap between putting out your side of the story, and telling people who don't agree with you that they are wrong, and discounting what they say. Correct. Both sides should remember that. |
| Ridcully Mar 01, 2010 7:31 AM EDT |
I am going to add one last summation as I see it........Sooner or later, this group of erst-while KDE users will vote with their feet and move away from KDE to another desktop manager. It is the path I am now considering very sincerely, especially given that Xfce has pretty much the attributes of KDE3.5.10 . I have experimented and I am sure I can learn how to drive Xfce, but I have been completely "turned off" learning how to drive KDE4. I think that two things will occur under this enforced closure of KDE3.5 by these KDE4 developers: 1. Previous KDE users will move to other desktop managers: Gnome, Xfce or others. This represents a net loss to the KDE user base. 2. Those previous KDE users will continue to recommend that Linux users do NOT bother with KDE4; this is considerable negative publicity that KDE really does not need, and possibly cannot afford. Put both of those together and you produce a negative force that was never previously in the KDE arena. Certainly, the developers can continue to ignore this and go their own merry way ~ that's certainly their current attitude as I intepret it......and perhaps this animosity of the KDE3.5 users may count for little in the long run. However, if the KDE4 developers continue on the path that they have currently chosen, then for the next 20 years minimum, I will find myself in a position where I will never recommend to a Linux user that they try using KDE. And that, for a person who loved KDE as the best desktop manager ever, is a sad and serious situation to discover. @DiBosco........I will defend your right to use KDE4 as long as I draw breath. Mind you, I think you have opted for the "klutz" (I don't think I need to explain that term fully, but for one thing, it does include the concept of glitter rather than usefulness) desktop manager, but that is your absolute right. Perhaps KDE4.5 will improve........but I don't hold my breath on that one either. |
| TxtEdMacs Mar 01, 2010 10:13 AM EDT |
I am afraid your all mistaken. The gnashing of teeth only will increase your dental bills or your pain. Whatever your stance on KDE version 4 (dot) something, I think there is a failure to recognize the target market that will Love this new version. That is, disaffected Windows users that will never move to either Linux, or the BSDs or any other future alternative OS. Complain, yes they will, but they will love KDE*. YBT * Advisement of Potential Conflict of Interests: I have never been a user of KDE other than some applications back in version one or two. Moreover, I wiped KDE off one machine**, because it reminded me too much of Windows OS. So all the above comments are completely devoid of knowledge of the facts, but dripping in snideness. Beware, you have been warned. ** Installed by my son, when we shared my machine. |
| DiBosco Mar 01, 2010 12:47 PM EDT |
Quoting: I have experimented and I am sure I can learn how to drive Xfce, but I have been completely "turned off" learning how to drive KDE4. See to me this says two things: one is that you are willing to spend more time learning something that is hugely more different than the 3.5 to 4 difference - which makes no sense; two is that you are so fed up of the [small] change that you are making it harder in your head than in really is. I just think it's bizarre that you (or indeed anyone) doesn't know how to drive it having used 3.5. It didn't take me much tinkering time at all to work it out. Quoting:I will defend your right to use KDE4 as long as I draw breath And I would defend your right not to like KDE4; however the only really sensible reason I've heard not to like it is from Tracyanne who quite simply just thinks it's ugly. I get that in a funny sort of way because it's just a taste thing. However, I just can't see why people find it so different or hard to use now the bugs have almost completely disappeared. Txt is actually spot on about the gnashing of teeth and dental bills. Just seems to me that people's backs are up because early release were rubbish (and boy, they were) but they aren't willing to see that it's not like that any more. I also believe in a year or so many people will be happily using it again and the comments I see seem to suggest non KDE users are actually attracted to it. Maybe it's just all part of the changing nature of Linux and its users. Time will tell and I could be completely wrong about that. |
| dinotrac Mar 01, 2010 1:07 PM EDT |
Quoting: you are willing to spend more time learning something that is hugely more different than the 3.5 to 4 difference - which makes no sense; two is that you are so fed up of the [small] change that you are making it harder in your head than in really is. To me, this says that you are incapable of listening. This is a guy who has repeatedly given KDE 4.x an honest try and just can't wrap his head around it. I'm sorry, but if somebody like that would rather switch to something else altogether, then somethint is dreadfully wrong. if, for example, he really is making it harder than it is, that must speak volumes to the documentation. If the documentation really is that bad, then the software is, too, because software without decent documentation might as well not exist. |
| jdixon Mar 01, 2010 1:39 PM EDT |
> Correct. Both sides should remember that. Absolutely. > ...one is that you are willing to spend more time learning something that is hugely more different than the 3.5 to 4 difference... There's not that much difference in how KDE3 and XFCE work from a user perspective. But since it doesn't look the same, people expect there to be differences, and aren't surprised or upset when there are. > is that you are so fed up of the [small] change that you are making it harder in your head than in really is. It's supposedly still KDE. The expectation is that things will still work the same. Then they don't. The switch to XFCE is actually easier because of the lack of expectations. > I also believe in a year or so many people will be happily using it again... There will be a lot of people using it, yes. But they won't be the people who were happily using KDE3. They'll have switched to another desktop environment rather than put up with the (to their eyes) needless changes and condescension they've received from the developers. Hey, are we sure the KDE developers aren't the same people working on the Democrat's health care plans? The attitudes seem to be the same. |
| dinotrac Mar 01, 2010 2:15 PM EDT |
>Hey, are we sure the KDE developers aren't the same people working on the Democrat's health care plans? >The attitudes seem to be the same. Results, too, it would appear. And...defections? Reports are that Pelosi is having a much harder time rounding up 218 now than she did before. Can you say "November"? |
| DiBosco Mar 01, 2010 2:23 PM EDT |
Quoting:To me, this says that you are incapable of listening. Au contraire. I _am_ listening and putting across an opinion, just like you. Quoting:The expectation is that things will still work the same. But they do for the most part. That's the weird thing about all this. |
| dinotrac Mar 01, 2010 2:32 PM EDT |
Quoting: Au contraire. I _am_ listening and putting across an opinion, just like you.No, you are not. When I proffer an opinion, I make some effort - not always successfully - to note and understand what that opinion is referring to. Quoting: See to me this says two things: one is that you are willing to spend more time learning something that is hugely more different than the 3.5 to 4 difference - which makes no sense; two is that you are so fed up of the [small] change that you are making it harder in your head than in really is. You can't possibly say that if you are paying any attention at all. What you are really saying with that statement (and certainly the one that followed) is that people are too stupid to know their own experience and their own difficulties. Whether you have beans in your ears (er, eyes) or simply are that incredibly arrogant, you ain't listenin', Jack. |
| jdixon Mar 01, 2010 4:41 PM EDT |
> But they do for the most part. That's the weird thing about all this. Based on what people are saying, they don't. And the changes seem arbitrary to the users, without any rhyme or reason. That's why they're having problems. |
| ComputerBob Mar 01, 2010 5:35 PM EDT |
Quoting:Based on what people are saying, they don't. And the changes seem arbitrary to the users, without any rhyme or reason. That's why they're having problems.+1 |
| Ridcully Mar 01, 2010 6:58 PM EDT |
And here, DiBosco, are the comments that don't get the highlights they should. On LXer right now is this article: http://www.linux-mag.com/cache/7712/1.html By Ken Hess. The article seems awfully nice and just what KDE4 fans want to hear, but go into the comments and suddenly you find this, also by Ken Hess: Quoting: @auspex True, this is no "deep dive" into KDE but I tested a lot of the menus, widgets and apps and everything that I touched, worked. And I'm sure that it's true that OpenSUSE works better than Kubuntu or a Fedora Spin but it's still pretty cool. I'm waiting for KDE 5.0 before I attempt a re-dedication to KDE. If you're a KDE user, you should upgrade. If you use GNOME, LXDE, XFCE or another desktop, I wouldn't switch. Sorry. Think of it now in terms of the KDE3.5 user which does resemble/equal the efficiency of the Gnome and Xfce desktops, and that upgrade or switch is pretty well negated. If you were on KDE4.2 or 3, yes, upgrade, but from KDE3.5, no. Other comments on that article deepen the frustration; stories of continuous KDE4 crashes, followed by praises. I think Ken Hess' comment about waiting for KDE5 seems like a good idea; but then assuming I move to either Xfce or Gnome, who cares anyway ? |
| ComputerBob Mar 01, 2010 7:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:...waiting for KDE5 seems like a good idea; but then assuming I move to either Xfce or Gnome, who cares anyway ?That's EXACTLY where I've been for the past few weeks. And I'm surprisingly happy to be there. |
| gus3 Mar 01, 2010 8:16 PM EDT |
Okay, here's a little fuel for the fire: I ditched GNOME a month ago, for LXDE. I'd rather switch now, while the choice is mine, than to have the choice forced upon me by what might be another "we know what's best" desktop. Granted, I'm a control freak, at least on my own computers. (All 5 of them, not counting the four dead ones in the closet.) My desktop system, in particular, is set up with my preferences, clear down to using the Sawfish window manager. I'm getting mixed reports on whether or not those preferences will be honored in GNOME3. The only thing I don't like about LXDE is its lack of "desktop launcher creation". Or, if it's there somewhere, it's well-hidden. But that's a convenience for me; the menu has all the apps I use, and is faster anyway when an app is maximized on the desktop. |
| Romon Mar 02, 2010 12:43 AM EDT |
Interesting forum, as to distro hopping a team member in our computer lab has some 90 various distro's. Of some few, we've played god with and attempted our own re-mixes. Always with the hope of the magic one, that just works and commercially marketable. My first experience outside of gnome, Xfce was Mepis KDE4, I gave it up in a week. My mind spun and could make no real sense of where anything was, and my buddy. Thinking I was retarted. Secondly, the naming of programs in KDE do nothing for me and new users coming from Windows, are mostly utterly lost on account of that. I did run Mepis awhile after loading Gnome and cleaning KDE off the drive and ran AntiX M8 as a second choice, using Debian Stable 1-5 package disks and shut off Mepis repositories. To experiment with icewm and fluxbox, as alternative desktop environments. To date really, it was one of the most stable systems I've used for any length. Gotta love Debian! Now, I'm back to Ubuntu... since 9.04-10 came out and rated as a new Linux Maturity. The end user, can understand it. That's what is great about Linux... options. A system that can be played with, for those that like to tinker. There while be those like my buddy developer, that loves KDE4. As a marketing director in our company, we are pre-loading Ubuntu and we chose going with Gnome, for ease of use. Even though, KDE does in many ways have superior graphics and art work. I agree with much that has been stated in this forum. Though keep telling the developers your Linux communities valid contributions. They do have ego's... because, the are smart. Don't belie them their intelligence, Innovation in the world of Linux right or wrong is changing our computer experience. I let it go when my buddy treats me like a retard, because I've seen him do intuitive MAGIC. Which is needed, to get Linux working at times. For some of us leaving KDE behind, is personal choice. I love the learning curve, from my own personal experience and the choices the World of Linux, makes available to me. We all have a place in what and how we do, once we've arrived... in it. Change, is the only constant in the Universe. Linux is doing that and all these varied Linux Distro's, are only getting better. Hopefully KDE.whatever will get over itself. At least it has funding to develop... I'm off, to check out LXDE? Thanks for the read ya all! |
| Ridcully Mar 02, 2010 8:18 AM EDT |
One can only wonder if the lack of this aspect is the basis for the problem: http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Linux_Mint Quoting:Perhaps most importantly, this is one project where the developers and users are in constant interaction, resulting in dramatic, user-driven improvements with every new release. |
| dinotrac Mar 02, 2010 8:57 AM EDT |
Romon - Nobody has questioned the intelligence of KDE developers, only their maturity, failure to appreciate community, and warped notion of responsibility. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 02, 2010 10:00 AM EDT |
I would be much happier with Xfce if I could stop there being two bars, each taking screen space, top and bottom. Putting them both on the same side just overlays them, rather than combining them. Any pointers? |
| dinotrac Mar 02, 2010 10:10 AM EDT |
Bob_R -- No pointers, but I know it can be done because I have one bar on the bottom, that hides away -- So, there is hope. You might try the xfce panel manager. It has a + and - buttons for the panels, which implies that you can use it delete extras. |
| gus3 Mar 02, 2010 10:32 AM EDT |
Yes, Bob, it is possible. I hate that bar on top. Dino is on the right track. IIRC, the panel manager is found in the Control Panel or Settings. Sorry I'm not more help, but I'm in LXDE at the moment. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 02, 2010 10:35 AM EDT |
Thank you both, knowing it can be done is the most important thing. After that, it's just implementation. LXDE looks interesting, too. My first impression was a lightweight GNOME. |
| gus3 Mar 02, 2010 10:45 AM EDT |
"Lightweight" in the sense of "desktop environment, not application infrastructure". |
| ComputerBob Mar 02, 2010 11:45 AM EDT |
@Bob_Rob - I recently installed Debian Squeeze with Xfce -- actually 2 installs; one from the Debian Squeeze Xfce+LXDE CD and the other one by Netinst -- and I was very pleasantly surprised to see that both of those installs came with ONLY the bottom panel, instead of the two panels (top and bottom) that I've seen in several Xfce reviews. |
| jdixon Mar 02, 2010 12:10 PM EDT |
> ...and I was very pleasantly surprised to see that both of those installs came with ONLY the bottom panel... Slackware also defaults to only a bottom panel. |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 02, 2010 1:05 PM EDT |
My Debian Lenny Xfce install has been having problems. Now whenever I start an application, the window "sticks" to the top of the screen and can't be moved (nor does it have its own "title" bar). I'm sure I did this while trying to fix something else. Any Xfce gurus out there know how to fix this? |
| gus3 Mar 02, 2010 1:22 PM EDT |
Have you tried holding down Alt and clicking anywhere in the window to move it? |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 02, 2010 2:09 PM EDT |
Thanks, Com_Bob, it must be the default configuration new with Squeeze because my Lenny Xfce has the two. |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 02, 2010 3:05 PM EDT |
Quoting:Have you tried holding down Alt and clicking anywhere in the window to move it? I'll give that a try. I'm fairly sure I messed it up, so it should be easier to un-mess up than if it was something outside operator error. |
| DiBosco Mar 08, 2010 8:56 PM EDT |
Quoting:No, you are not. When I proffer an opinion, I make some effort - not always successfully - to note and understand what that opinion is referring to. Sorry, dino, that's simply not true. It just happens that my opinions on this differ from yours. I have made points in this that have been ignored over and over again and I have addressed others' points over and over again. It's staggeringly one-eyed (and inaccurate) to claim that you make an effort to see a point and I do not. Quoting:You can't possibly say that if you are paying any attention at all. What you are really saying with that statement (and certainly the one that followed) is that people are too stupid to know their own experience and their own difficulties. Whether you have beans in your ears (er, eyes) or simply are that incredibly arrogant, you ain't listenin', Jack. Nope, I have at no point in this discussion (or others about KDE4) said or implied that people are stupid. Others have been rude to me on regular occasions, but I have been nothing but polite in response. Oddly enough, when I read your first statement arrogant came to my mind about you, then I counted to ten and thought I shouldn't use that word because you can tell people are losing an argument when they resort to abuse. KDE4 has the start menu in the same way, you can place icons in the same way, has the same apps, same absolutely loads of things. All this seems to get ignored. I have asked over and over again for people to point out these big differences and they just can't. I have said in the past if they can, I would happily admit it. The point remains is that KDE4 is incredibly similar to KDE3.5 if you want it to be. Tell me how it isn't, point out what I am missing and I will happily admit I am wrong. What I see are a things like "Configure Your Desktop" being different which are not things that change how you drive your PC on a day-to-day basis, but a one-off learning curve when you set-up your new install. I would really like to see all these huge changes listed. So, I am not arrogant, I have no beans in my eyes (whatever that means), I listen to others' arguments and I respectfully disagree. I think it would be a jolly good idea for you to develop a bit of respect for my viewpoint too and not resort to name calling just because I have the temerity to have a different viewpoint to yours. Quoting:Other comments on that article deepen the frustration; stories of continuous KDE4 crashes, followed by praises. I think Ken Hess' comment about waiting for KDE5 seems like a good idea; but then assuming I move to either Xfce or Gnome, who cares anyway ? Yes, I have seen some people say 4.4 isn't as good as 4.3, others that 4.4 is fantastic and I know others that have loved it since 4.1, at least this article has some in favour as well as against. I have seen a couple of other articles that have been praising KDE4.4 to the hilt. (Isn't Ken Hess someone who is reviled around here, BTW?) Actually, your point about anyone caring if you move to a different DT is quite fair. It sounds callous, but I am not sure anyone will care, because others will be along who do like it [KDE4]. I actually don't care if you or dino or whoever don't like KDE4 (I and a lot of other people are loving it), all I want to do is point out that there are other viewpoints as unpopular as that might be. This is about the only place I read that still seems to have such an almost universally aggressive anti-KDE4 viewpoint. Maybe others feel the same way but are too afraid to voice their opinion. |
| jacog Mar 09, 2010 4:01 AM EDT |
Don't bother, DiBosco, just ignore them and they will go away. Instead, take the "beans", go grind them up and make a cup of coffee. :D |
| jdixon Mar 09, 2010 7:26 AM EDT |
OK, just in case I haven't made it clear by now: I don't use KDE4. I'm still using Slackware 12.2, and haven't upgraded to Slackware 13 and KDE4 yet. So all of my comments have been and will be as an outside observer. > Actually, your point about anyone caring if you move to a different DT is quite fair. It sounds callous, but I am not sure anyone will care, because others will be along who do like it [KDE4]. I think that point has already been made. The users who aren't happy are leaving. People who actually like KDE4 are becoming new KDE users. So, are you losing more old users or gaining more new users? I doubt anyone knows for sure at this point. > This is about the only place I read that still seems to have such an almost universally aggressive anti-KDE4 viewpoint. By and large, the comments here haven't been anti-KDE4. They've been anti-KDE4 developers. From the beginning, when they released beta (to be charitable) code as production ready, to the present; they've consistently done their best to give the impression that they know what's good for us better than we poor deluded users, and that any problems we were having were all our fault, not problems with the code. Whether this is an accurate portrayal is immaterial, it's the impression they've given, and continue to give. The results were predictable, and have played out pretty much as one would expect. |
| dinotrac Mar 09, 2010 11:51 AM EDT |
DiBosco - Of course. And unicorns, too. |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 09, 2010 12:36 PM EDT |
Quoting:Have you tried holding down Alt and clicking anywhere in the window to move it? That didn't unstick my Xfce windows. I fired up my other Debian Lenny Xfce laptop, and that one I didn't mess up, so I'll have to compare settings between the two and see what I did. |
| gus3 Mar 09, 2010 12:57 PM EDT |
In that case, the window may be marked as "maximized" (even if its AxB+C+D doesn't match). Try Alt-Space to get a window menu. |
| Teron Mar 09, 2010 6:12 PM EDT |
The thing I'm concerned about is that I'm probably royally f***ed in the future :P KDE is likely going to **** due to the devs' attitude and the project's general development focus. GNOME is introducing the GNOME Shell, something completely alien to me. XFCE's graphical configuration tools are, in my experience, crap and I don't expect them to improve significantly anytime soon. Modern Macs (hardware) are cr@p. Glossy screens, built-in batteries, buttonless tocuhpads... ugh. I don't think I need to say much about the possibility of using Windows to the people here. Of course, there's always the chance that GNOME 3.0 will turn out good. Here's hoping, because otherwise I'm in trouble when this MacBook Pro dies :P |
| hkwint Mar 10, 2010 11:09 AM EDT |
Teron: What about LXDE? |
| Teron Mar 10, 2010 5:31 PM EDT |
How's the configuration stuff? Any better than XFCE/GNOME? Do they have anything like the old guidance conf tools, or is it the same 800x600-only drek that XFCE and GNOME ship with? (I don't have any problems with the aforementioned drek, but nowadays it's combined with a totally barren xorg.conf. Autodetection is all fine and dandy when it works. In my case, it often doesn't.) |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 11, 2010 1:05 PM EDT |
Well, when no one is using KDE any more, there will be a bunch of developers who can go work on xfce and gnome. Just a thought. |
| ComputerBob Mar 11, 2010 2:03 PM EDT |
Quoting:Well, when no one is using KDE any more, there will be a bunch of developers who can go work on xfce and gnome.I was having such a nice day before I read that. |
| gus3 Mar 11, 2010 2:33 PM EDT |
Not happy about KDE influence muddying the waters, CB? |
| ComputerBob Mar 11, 2010 2:53 PM EDT |
Not happy with even the remote possibility that the current KDE devs might ever have the opportunity to "do their magic" on other DEs/WMs. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 11, 2010 3:05 PM EDT |
ComBob, just an aside, I read your entire My Debian Adventure novel with great interest. |
| ComputerBob Mar 11, 2010 6:34 PM EDT |
@Bob_Rob: Thanks! The next episode has been cooking in my head for the past several weeks, and I now have 2 pages of tiny, scrawled notes to remind me of things that I want to write about my next Debian Adventure (Squeeze with Xfce). |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 11, 2010 8:41 PM EDT |
Well, I have Xfce installed along with several others... Here, let me check... 10 other window managers, including the default Debian twm. BTW, "Start a new session" on Alt-F8 is one of those features I use to blow away people if they say, "So, that's Linux?" Then I start something that looks completely different, like OpenLook or Xfce, start an application or two, flip back to Alt-F7 where KDE3 patiently waits, maybe start a ping or "top" on random Alt-F1 through F6 sessions, go back to F8 and F7 to show that they're still working just fine, etc. At some point I may set up my server with remote X login so I can put that on F8 for actually getting things done instead of just playing. I'm rambling, sorry. Here, let's get back on track: KDE4 rots! |
| TxtEdMacs Mar 11, 2010 9:15 PM EDT |
BobR, You meant Quoting: [...] KDE4 ro[ck]s[!]Right? YBT |
| gus3 Mar 11, 2010 9:26 PM EDT |
And if you're on a trusted network, you can enable XDMCP on a remote, and be on two systems at once. Watch their jaws drop when you tell them Unix had this twelve years before Windows had the same thing! |
| jacog Mar 12, 2010 4:59 AM EDT |
Quoting:Watch their jaws drop when you tell them Unix had this twelve years before Windows had the same thing! Yet, I bet Microsoft have a patent for that in their patent library that they use to threaten people with. |
| dinotrac Mar 12, 2010 5:22 AM EDT |
jacog -- Not only do they have a patent, but it is a magical Dr. Who patent, awarded in the future of their past discovery after but before Unix. |
| jacog Mar 12, 2010 6:04 AM EDT |
Of course. Filed at the Tardis patent office. |
| dinotrac Mar 12, 2010 7:04 AM EDT |
I'll tell you this much... If you think ordinary patents are screwed up, wait til you deal with an area where all the patent clerks are Cybermen and all the lawyers Daleks. I can hear it now: "Infringing, infringing, INFRINGING!" |
| Sander_Marechal Mar 12, 2010 6:22 PM EDT |
I thought it sounded more like "litegate, LITEGATE, LITEGATE!" |
| azerthoth Mar 12, 2010 6:36 PM EDT |
Ood have guessed that the daleks were in patent office. |
| dinotrac Mar 12, 2010 8:34 PM EDT |
azer BOOOOOOOOOOood! |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 12, 2010 11:33 PM EDT |
Quoting:The next episode has been cooking in my head for the past several weeks, and I now have 2 pages of tiny, scrawled notes to remind me of things that I want to write about my next Debian Adventure (Squeeze with Xfce). I'd upgrade my laptop from Lenny to Squeeze right now if I was guaranteed to have working X, but with the ability to turn off kernel mode setting seemingly going away, I'm worried that X will no longer work with my early-2000s Intel video chip (i830m in my case). So until the Arch Linux people figure this one out (like they did for me with Debian Lenny and Ubuntu Karmic), I really have to resist the urge to brick my Debian install with an Xorg that hates me and my hardware. |
| ComputerBob Mar 13, 2010 12:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:I'd upgrade my laptop from Lenny to Squeeze right now if I was guaranteed to have working X, but with the ability to turn off kernel mode setting seemingly going away, I'm worried that X will no longer work with my early-2000s Intel video chip (i830m in my case).Yeah, I've followed your kernel-mode adventures, and even though none of my current hardware is affected by that problem, I feel your pain, and I'm hoping to someday read your confirmation of a permanent solution from the Debian devs. |
| Steven_Rosenber Mar 13, 2010 1:17 AM EDT |
Fedora has a great page on fixing X when it's broken. http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Xorg/Debugging I plan to keep an eye on it as Fedora 13 winds its way toward release. |
| ComputerBob Mar 13, 2010 1:37 AM EDT |
Thanks - I just bookmarked that Fedora page. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 13, 2010 2:25 PM EDT |
My first Debian X install, I finally found a reference for the screen I was using, "same frequencies as an IBM somegodawfulthingoranother". And miracle of miracles, there WAS a modline defined by that same IBM screen model number. I nearly cooked a friend's screen the first time I tried to install Linux on a laptop, through bunking back and forth trying desperately to get a working X. It has been, and remains, my humble opinion that video configuration has come a LONG way in Linux in the last 15 years, much like from a Model T to a Mustang, but remains the one awful weak-point when compared side by side with the competition. Right now, my server with an add-on nvidia card, I think because of the same Intel 810 video problem mentioned above, cannot get a correct 16x9 display on the "computer ready" and vga-input equipped TV, simply because the TVs frequency list and what X will put out just don't match up anywhere. The 1GHz CPU is also, well, "not worth keeping", so when it finally does become dreadfully important I'll be throwing that server out anyway and getting hardware that might, might, display correctly to the TV. Those recycled $100 2.8GHz Dell Optiplex office machines sold on Craigslist are all 60 miles away. Maybe next time I'm going to Raleigh I can remember to look to see if there are any available. Naa, then the wife would know. |
| jdixon Mar 13, 2010 3:31 PM EDT |
> Those recycled $100 2.8GHz Dell Optiplex office machines sold on Craigslist are all 60 miles away. Intechra delivers them: http://www.intechraoutlet.com/home/ Shipping is $27/machine from memory, so you're looking at roughly the same price. That's with 512MB of memory, a 40GB hard drive and a CD. We've bought 2 computers and 1 monitor from them over the past 3 years, and they've all been acceptable. There are probably dozens of competitors who offer equivalent deals, but they're the ones we've dealt with. |
| Bob_Robertson Mar 13, 2010 7:10 PM EDT |
Thanks. |
| hkwint Mar 14, 2010 1:11 AM EDT |
It's all a lack of standards I guess. Connected hardware needs to be able to talk to the OS as to its capabilities and which standards it supports. For example, a USB drive with an EXT3 partition adheres to the USB standard, to some partition - standard and to the EXT3 standard, and the kernel is able to communicate with the device. Also, normally the video card is detected by the kernel, though it depends on the module being load if the kernel can talk to all 'features' of the card. I'm pretty sure work is being done on standards for the kernel talking to a monitor, but it's not done yet. If it was, the kernel would ask for the modeline and the user needn't care. Nothing new I guess, just some continuation of the ongoing improvements. And currently it doesn't work all that well. |
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