Actually using KDE4....how I sincerely wish.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Ridcully Jan 29, 2010 4:56 AM EDT |
I looked at the superb image of the KDE4 screen in this article and almost drooled. I readily confess it looks marvellous and is almost "seductive" in the way it tempts one to get their fingers on mouse and keyboard and play with it. Certainly I'd agree that KDE4 is producing one of the most elegant and beautiful looking desktop environments that is available in the IT world......I wish, I wish, how I wish I could just drop it into my openSUSE computer instead of KDE3.5 as a "one for one" replacement.....But I keep waiting, watching and hoping. I think it will happen.....just not yet. |
| dinotrac Jan 29, 2010 7:43 AM EDT |
Come on, Ridcully --- That kind of thinking will get you banned from the FLOSS world, or, at least, the KDE version of it. Repeat after me: Developers matter. Users are invited to tag along, but only if they shut up and behave themselves. |
| DiBosco Jan 29, 2010 8:00 AM EDT |
I've already pretty much done it, Ridcully. Running it very happily, looks beautiful and is next to no different to KDE3.5 in terms of functionality. In fact, there are some improvements. Don't listen to the Luddites, come on in, the water's fine. :~) |
| jacog Jan 29, 2010 8:08 AM EDT |
I have been running Mandriva, but in need of a change of scenery, so will be trying Pardus for a while. I am curious to see their implementation of KDE. |
| Ridcully Jan 29, 2010 9:29 AM EDT |
@dinotrac :-) You mean my voluptuous language should be censored ? KDE users are extremely easily offended by even minimally suggestive writing ? Oh dear !! I shall be consigned to Gnomish outer darkness (That should offend a whole new group........I think I'd better start running.) That screen shot does look beautiful though, doesn't it ? What annoys me is that I had a live DVD here of KDE4.3 and tried to fire it up here earlier this evening so I could test out some ideas that have recently been published on how to configure Konqueror in order to make it the principal file manager instead of Dolphin and also how to make Konqueror's visual behaviour identical to how it operates in KDE3.5 with split screen and file tree..........the rotten @#$%#$%& disk is defective and will not boot up. Deep sigh. However I am sure another one will be along soon. |
| r_a_trip Jan 29, 2010 9:41 AM EDT |
Developers matter. Users are invited to tag along, but only if they shut up and behave themselves. Isn't that true for most end users anywhere in the software world? Closed and open. Unless you have the affluence to fund a piece of software from beginning to end, you can only accept what the author is willing to furnish you with. How much influence does an end user have over the Mac OS X interface? What percentage of end user input is expressed in the new Windows 7? At least with FOSS you have the source code and the license that theoretically gives you a stick to beat the developer with if he misbehaves. Then again, without ample money and/or a new group of developers, that source code is worth diddly-squat. |
| DiBosco Jan 29, 2010 9:46 AM EDT |
Quoting:Unless you have the affluence to fund a piece of software from beginning to end, you can only accept what the author is willing to furnish you with. Even worse in this case, most of the ingrates endlessly complaining about KDE haven't paid a penny towards the project. |
| dinotrac Jan 29, 2010 10:39 AM EDT |
Even worse, knuckleheads complaining about supposed ingrates who don't appreciate thoughtless children screwing around with something they rely on daily, especially when part of the attraction to those thoughtless children was the chance to work on something that people rely on daily. |
| DiBosco Jan 29, 2010 11:19 AM EDT |
Dino, because I appreciate the effort someone has put in does not make me a knucklehead. I am not stupid, bumbling or inept. It certainly does not make me worse than an ingrate because I have the gumption and tenacity to find alternative ways for the odd thing that has changed in the desktop, rather than moaning about the changes. The thoughtless children comment is also pretty poor. The work done is far from thoughtless. It was done with a great deal of planning because of Qt3 going obsolete. The idea of children being able to do what KDE have achieved is an insult to the devs. The people who don't like what's happened with KDE4 still have distributions like Debian running with KDE3.5 and can still use that. As has been pointed out previously, if certain features have gone, write to the program's maintainers and ask them for to be reinstated. However, people find it far easier to complain about it rather than do something constructive or find a work round. It's all very well saying that things were one way with KDE3 and a little different with KDE4, but the problem is the world changes. KDE3.5 is dead and complaining is going to do nothing about it. If it's that important to people they need to fund or start a fork of 3.5. Again, all I have seen through all this complaining is one example of something being different from 3 to 4 where most of the complaints were sensibly dealt with and the existing problems could be simply fixed by filling a bug report, being patient and using KDE3.5 in the meantime. One thing I do understand is that people do rely on these things daily, but I don't believe it's fair to take something you get for free and complain when things change for perfectly good and planned out reasons - especially when the changes are minor. There is far too much fuss being made about something that really hasn't changed that much. |
| dinotrac Jan 29, 2010 11:42 AM EDT |
DiBosco -- You called people ingrates for not being appreciative of those who would mess around with their lives. That's a knucklehead comment if ever I've heard one. The developers have no reason to whine like children. They chose to work on KDE when they could easily have started a new project of their own. If the developers are insulted at being called to task, I'm not surprised. Children tend to act that way. |
| tbuitenh Jan 29, 2010 11:54 AM EDT |
Um, KDE 4 is a new project. That's why it's not called KDE 3.6. |
| dinotrac Jan 29, 2010 12:00 PM EDT |
It is the KDE project with a version number. Just like the Linux kernel is still the linux kernel, even thought it's gone WAAAAY past 1.0. |
| gus3 Jan 29, 2010 12:02 PM EDT |
The only piece of hardware I've ever drooled over while window-shopping is the Optimus Keyboard from Art.Lebedev. http://www.gizmag.com/go/4283/ /me wipes chin |
| DiBosco Jan 29, 2010 12:05 PM EDT |
Dino, I did not call them ingrates for not being appreciative of having their lives messed with. I called them ingrates for not appreciating [necessary] work that has been put in to keep the desktop suitable for future development. In any case it does not make me stupid, bumbling or inept. It is an overstatement to say their lives have been messed with. Some programs have minor changes that require them to work in a slightly different way and they can still use the old programs on KDE3.5. It's not the developers that are whining like children, it's the users! The fuss being generated *far* outweighs the inconvenience some people might be suffering, especially when you look at the amount of feedback from other users who prefer the new system as it matures. |
| dinotrac Jan 29, 2010 12:08 PM EDT |
>the fuss being generated *far* outweighs the inconvenience some people might be suffering, It's always easy to berate "some people" for having the call to be "inconvenienced" by your actions. I remember growing up in the south when "those people" didn't know their places. |
| DiBosco Jan 29, 2010 12:11 PM EDT |
I have no idea what your analogy about the south means. |
| tbuitenh Jan 29, 2010 12:12 PM EDT |
So, if they had called the new thing ForkedDE 1, and still left KDE 3 to whoever wanted to maintain it, nobody would complain? I doubt it. |
| bigg Jan 29, 2010 12:18 PM EDT |
If it were called SeigoDE, there wouldn't be many complaints, because as they know well nobody would be using it. |
| Koriel Jan 29, 2010 12:28 PM EDT |
I have now been using KDE4 on my PCLinuxOS based dev machine for about 3 months now, and yes its drop dead gorgeous looking, but it does have its problems mainly buggy as all hell especially Dolphin, I like dolphin it took a bit of getting used to after konqueror but ive never been afraid of change but at the moment it crashes to often.
Then their is the almost random 100% cpu spikes you get sometimes which I believe have now been fixed.
As for the range of applications compared to KDE3.5, they are not on a parity level yet but its getting there.
Some apps are quite low on features compared to their KDE3.5 counterparts especially Amarok which for me is quite unuseable since it has no support for external mp3 devices yet.
My fav KDE4 app is KDE Svn which is incredibly well featured and far better than its KDE3.5 counterpart which im afraid can not be said for KGet which can't even do a proper Start/Stop/Resume at the moment which is the whole point of the damn thing. Since the machine is used mainly for software dev, ive not had that many problems but I have been trying out KDE4 as a multimedia unit on the machine we use for our MediaCentre/TV , and it seems to be fine there also its not ready for full time use due to problems not associated with KDE4 but with Linux/Firefox/Flash issues in general, the day the web is free of flash will be a great day for humanity! And then their is PulseAudio and on that low note i will say no more. |
| dinotrac Jan 29, 2010 12:37 PM EDT |
DiBosco -- Be glad that you don't. It's a sign that things have changed for the better. Guessing that I'm at least 20-30 years older than you are, but... when I grew up, "those people" were African-Americans, with their annoying insistence that they were people true, entitled to the same spectrum of rights as anybody else. |
| azerthoth Jan 29, 2010 12:50 PM EDT |
pulse isnt KDE, phonon is KDE, and both are ****. TBH while I have no proof only observation of my experiances versus that of others, many of the KDE problems may well be distro induced. I seldom run into problems running KDE on Gentoo/Funtoo/Sabayon, which as of last night is running 4.3.95 or 4.4rc2 as others call it. |
| dinotrac Jan 29, 2010 1:01 PM EDT |
azer - How much attention are you paying to KDE these days? Until KDE 4, I installed every KDE version from the time it went beta, starting with the first betas of KDE 1. I am not a happy camper with XFCE, and the noise from GNOME land doesn't convince me that they are determined to avoid the follies of KDE 4. Part of me wants to go back home, even though the house has been burned down and replaced by some strange looking new structure with garish paint and faucets I can't figure out how to work. The thing that keeps me from even trying is fear that the architects feel no responsibility to their work or to their client. Who knows what tomorrow will bring? |
| DiBosco Jan 29, 2010 1:05 PM EDT |
Dino, if you're 20-30 years older than me you're retired. The reason I didn't understand what you're on about is geography rather than age. To me southerners conjure up images of pompous old royals with a plumb in their throat or Cockneys. :~p (I assume now you're talking about the kind of thing that was portrayed in Mississippi Burning.) Our racist problems were and are a little different to yours from what I understand, although, happily, racism is not as big a problem as it used to be for us. Sorry, but I don't agree with your analogy (you won't be surprised to hear!). This is not about rights. No-one is being persecuted here as they were in your analogy, they are (currently and temporarily) deprived of *some* functionality on *some* programs on a desktop when they still have the old one to be going on with. BTW, as an interesting aside, apparently some of the functionality Carla was asking in Gwenview for has apparently already been fixed and if approved will be in version 4.5 which is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It's just a matter of time. |
| hkwint Jan 29, 2010 1:20 PM EDT |
Two things I'd like to say and haven't said before: 1) From what I read, it seems one of the biggest problem is the lack of some 'upgrade guide' from 3.5 to 4.x, which was also a problem for me when upgrading 'KDE-userland' (KDE-PIM meaning Kontact, and the lack of K3B and stable KDevelop). One thing to note is always half the internet is filled with 'how to make XP behave like 98' but those articles are lacking for KDE. I't sad I'm not a KDE user (except KDE-applications such as Kontact or Konsole), otherwise I might have tried writing such an article. Also, AFAIK there isn't a list made by the ones who complain about what features KDE 3.5 has and KDE4 doesn't, to be able for other people to write such an upgrade guide. What I mean is this: http://www.kdevelop.org/mediawiki/index.php/KDevelop_4/KDev3... Maybe it would be useful to build such a table if you belong to those relying on KDE 3.5 features and you can't work with KDE4, and then in some sort of WIKI-process users could add solutions. Sadly, I can't be of much help - apart from maybe adding to 'migrating Kontact from 3 to 4'. Asking for Dolphin to be like Konqueror 3.5 is probably not going to be of much help, because such a 'problem' is vague and undefined. Making a list of 'I did this in Konqueror 3, how do I do the same in KDE4?" would be more practical. If such a list with added solutions would exist, maybe people who want to switch such as Ridicully above could switch. 2) KDE people insist Dolphin replaced Konqueror because lots of people _asked_ for it. So they didn't make Dolphin to replace Konqueror because they only care about developers, but because their _users_ asked for it. Contemplate this for once, even though I know it's hard when you depend on Konqueror for daily work: Could it be that the Dolphin-bashers belong to a minority and the majority is happy with Dolphin replacing Konqueror? |
| azerthoth Jan 29, 2010 1:24 PM EDT |
@dino, with the exception of pykde4 which is a non essential package, I have had minimal problems compiling it, although 4.3.90 to 4.3.95 was a tad tricky. It's been rock solid stable for me and all of the functionality that reallt I have need of is there. That being said, it really does seem that most of the issues I hear about really are distro induced. |
| Koriel Jan 29, 2010 1:32 PM EDT |
@azeroth, I know Pulse isnt KDE, I was talking about linux stuff in general at that point and Pulse truly sucks, I would never have the balls to release such a half arsed piece of software pardon my language. Its not distro specific either or even sound card specific, ive tried Fedora, Mandriva both with a creative card, a turtle beach card and onboard nvidia audio all had issues although Fedora did fare the best as I actually managed to get some sound out of it although a bit crackly. Luckily Texstar (PCLinuxOS) loathes the thing so im hoping it will never be a default on that distro. |
| DiBosco Jan 29, 2010 1:37 PM EDT |
Quoting:Could it be that the Dolphin-bashers belong to a minority and the majority is happy with Dolphin replacing Konqueror? It's quite possible, but it's not really an issue because konqueror is still alive and well and works almost exactly the same as KDE3.5; all you have to do is change the default file manager. I really don't like Dolphin at all, but it's not affected my enjoyment of KDE4. The rest of your post makes a lot of sense and compiling a list of things that don't work the same or aren't present is an excellent idea. |
| tuxchick Jan 29, 2010 3:07 PM EDT |
KDE4 fans keep glossing over that is it's a radical change from KDE3. People who like KDE3 are running out of time-- it's been part of the roadmap from the beginning to discontinue it eventually. It has fallen behind, and every day lags further. When you take away software that people like and are happy with, of course they're going to object, and telling them to get used to it doesn't help. The other point the KDE4 devs and fans refuse to face is KDE4 does not offer equivalent functionality to KDE3. It is less customizable, it is less efficient to use, and it is all about looks over function. Have you counted how many special-effect desktop tweaks there are? Literally dozens. And yet useful features have been stripped wholesale for aesthetic reasons. Sure, it's not about glitz. :P This is Gnome 2.x all over again-- the rationale was that 1.4 was unmaintainable and needed a ground-up rewrite. Fine, but then in the name of "simplicity" mass features were discarded, and it became an overweight application launcher full of apps that hardly do anything. All the same excuses were used-- user feedback they did not want to hear was dismissed in favor of 'usability studies.' Naturally 1.4 users were not pleased, since everything they liked about 1.4 was throw away. A lot of them went to KDE3. Will all that beautiful KDE3 customizability, efficiency, and functionality come to KDE4? Time will tell, but I have my doubts, since anyone who dares to want these things is told they are wanting the wrong things. What will KDE3 lovers migrate to? Maybe back to a lightweight window manager and writing our own scripts. |
| Ridcully Jan 29, 2010 5:50 PM EDT |
When I put the first post in this thread, I was hopeful........ I must admit, after having read the comments and angst, I'm not and back to the near despair that KDE4 will ever become something that is good enough for daily desktop work. Frankly, KDE4 looks beautiful, but that is where the pleasure stops. It is NOT a one for one with KDE3.5; it has been totally and completely altered, there is no upgrade manual to help KDE3.5 users find their feet, KDE4 is essentially a new piece of software to learn and I find KDE4 confusing and irrelevant to my daily needs. I have noted again and again calls for a fork and re-maintenance of KDE3.5, purely because it IS a workplace effective and oriented desktop that does what users want, so perhaps it is time for that to be considered as a serious project. Finally, several things that get up my nostrils in KDE4 are the multitude of display formats and plasmoids with the "cashew". If you wanted a reason for the complexity and possible instability of KDE4, stop right there. For goodness sakes, I just need ONE desktop, not several forms or views of it (and I am not talking about the several virtual desktops KDE3.5 allows you to have either, I normally use a setting of 4 and I love them) - this is plain complexity for complexity's sake and probably adds to instability. Further, my probably too simple impression is that plasmoids stripped of all the hype are programmable applets which normally would be opened by a plain "non-programmable" icon in KDE3.5.......so why add this complexity layer ? Why not just have normal icons and somewhere, a list of these applets that you can put on the desktop ? And if you want, a specialised section that helps you to program an applet. I have the impression that plasmoids are a device that tinkerers and programmers like, but I'm not one of those - I'm just an everyday user......all I need is for a program to start if I click on its icon and that is what KDE3.5 does - and I suspect that is all most business and general users need as well. Sure, you can tell me that a "plasmoid" can behave that way if you lock them all.....but now you cannot shift them until you unlock them and in any event, why do I personally want to stretch, open, program and manipulate a plasmoid anyhow. For me, this is an utterly useless aspect and it just adds to the complexity and instability of KDE4 in the sense that it needs more code in order to operate . Finally, KDE3.5 has a superb, known, easily understood personal settings manager.......WHY wreck the menu situation and change things so that in KDE4 it becomes so difficult to find anything at all. You are faced with both a different menu tree and different icons and the KDE3.5 road map in your mind is more or less irrelevant. What the KDE4 team did had nothing to do with ease of transition and user comfort, but everything to do with what they thought was prettier and more feasible and it has produced a totally wrong result even if the reason was innocuous or intended to be helpful. Change the icons if necessary because of the later Qt situation (I think that is the reason), but keep the identical, note that word, "identical", menu tree.......and let people become familiar with a new but workable situation. That should raise enough dust. |
| azerthoth Jan 29, 2010 6:04 PM EDT |
The illogic astounds. "I dont want to learn how to do $SOMETHING in KDE4, I'll just switch to $WM/DE and learn how to do it there instead" Good grief if your willing to switch to a different de/wm and learn it there, then you have no room to kvetch about your unwillingness to learn in where you started from. Oh and last I looked the old style menu tree is still available for use. |
| Ridcully Jan 29, 2010 6:12 PM EDT |
@azerthoth.......Please read what I said again. Yes, I know you can put in the conventional menu tree......what you get is NOT the same as KDE3.5, or the last time I looked it wasn't.......sorry. And your comment about learning how to do something is again what I expect from KDE4 fans and developers. The point I make is that ......I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO LEARN EVERYTHING ALL OVER AGAIN. The break between KDE3.5 and KDE4 is so enormous that they are two different pieces of software. Be a fan of KDE4 if you wish, but try to see the situation from the other side too. |
| ComputerBob Jan 29, 2010 6:53 PM EDT |
Quoting:The illogic astounds. "I dont want to learn how to do $SOMETHING in KDE4, I'll just switch to $WM/DE and learn how to do it there instead" Good grief if your willing to switch to a different de/wm and learn it there, then you have no room to kvetch about your unwillingness to learn in where you started from.I think that maybe the point that the "kvetchers" are trying to make is that, if experienced KDE3 users are forced to learn how to do numerous $SOMETHINGs all over again before they can even hope to reach a similar level of productivity in KDE4, then they might as well see if they can learn how to do those things in a lighter, faster, more responsive, less glitzy-but-possibly-more-productive environment. In other words, by making KDE4 "radically different" than KDE3, the KDE devs have "broken their own franchise" in a lot of people's eyes. P.S. I'm still using KDE3 and I would be more than happy to consider some good recommendations for what other environment to use instead of KDE4. |
| dinotrac Jan 29, 2010 6:53 PM EDT |
azer -- It's more a matter of being forced to switch or fall behind. If I'm going to switch to something, might as well switch to something who's spoiled and pompous developers haven't kicked me in the behind. As to going back -- there is a double issue: 1. Has the software become adequate, 2. Have the developers become adequate. |
| DiBosco Jan 29, 2010 7:09 PM EDT |
Quoting:KDE4 fans keep glossing over that is it's a radical change from KDE3 Your dictionary must have a different definition to radical to mine. Quoting:I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO LEARN EVERYTHING ALL OVER AGAIN. You don't. It's bordering on the behaviour of a drama queen to scream you have to learn everything over again. Quoting:Be a fan of KDE4 if you wish, but try to see the situation from the other side too. The issue isn't just about KDE4 fans seeing it from the other side, it's a sense of perspective and patience. I get that *some* functionality has changed. I get that *some* functionality is different. I *do* see it from your side; you, however, clearly do not see it from any side but "I want it back exactly as it was". I and many, many more *do* use KDE4 as a daily desktop and it works beautifully, so how can we make the minor adjustments (and they are minor) to using the desktop? You're making mountains out of molehills. It really, really, isn't that difficult, for example, to find settings in the configure desktop. If you don't like plasmoids. Don't use them, it's that simple. Just ignore that little discrete icon popping its head out in the top right hand corner. You *can* put icons and links to applications, shortcuts etc on the desktop just like you did in KDE3. Again, it's just *not* that different. I honestly don't understand what you're meaning with the thing about needing only one desktop, so maybe that's something that's missing, but I've only ever used one desktop and I just can't see any difference from KDE3 (maybe I misunderstand to be fair). I honestly understand that KDE4 is a different, but, and this is a huge but, it really, really isn't *that* different. It used to be flaky, it used to crash, it used to have *loads* of missing functionality, but it's really rather good these days. Still no-one can give a list of this supposedly missing functionality and just how it's *so* different from KDE3. Carla, to her credit, at least did give an example, but that's already been fixed (and now approved apparently) and I gave her alternative solutions that would possibly be better than G3 anyway. Ach, I'm really sorry, I'm probably winding the KDE4 haters up no end and I really regret that. I am not trying to be antagonistic, I genuinely don't see there being anything but a small difference between the desktops and I also believe that features that are missing will come in time. The track record over the past eighteen months or so certainly suggests that will be the case. I'm also aware that I'm repeating myself, but I also think that a lot of points from the KDE4 fans are being ignored for the sake of a good rant! I'm not really sure why I feel the need to defend KDE4. This would suggest I'm turning into a fanboi. ****, time to stop methinks. :~) |
| gus3 Jan 29, 2010 7:22 PM EDT |
Quoting:The illogic astounds. "I dont want to learn how to do $SOMETHING in KDE4, I'll just switch to $WM/DE and learn how to do it there instead" Good grief if your willing to switch to a different de/wm and learn it there, then you have no room to kvetch about your unwillingness to learn in where you started from.After using Linux for eleven and a half years, I've seen no desktop change as much as GNOME and KDE. I'm glad I wasn't forced to use Metacity in GNOME 2, but I'm getting mixed signals from GNOME and Sawfish about what will be supported in GNOME 3. It isn't illogical to switch to a different DE, where your knowledge and workflow habits are less likely to become stale, or even totally deprecated and unsupported, in a couple years. Sawfish has undergone a total transformation in its development/management model and underpinnings, yet everything I knew about it eight years ago still applies. I can't say the same about GNOME. [rant]If they want to take their cues more and more from Microsoft, let them become just as despised as Microsoft.[/rant] |
| Ridcully Jan 29, 2010 7:37 PM EDT |
The problem DiBosco, is that opening KDE4 and trying to get started has each time produced problems in what I wanted to do. And as for the "drama queen" bit....that's a teensy bit unkind. :-) .....I emphasised that purely because when you try to do things the same way you have always done them, in many cases you cannnot......and so often KDE4 enthusiasts just steamroll over the problems raised by KDE3.5 users and say that we are making something out of nothing. That is very frustrating to a KDE3.5 user who has put forward what they believe are legitimate problems and complaints and has steadily reached the point where they believe that the developers are saying: We know best for you, you are just the user and what you will use is what we want to give you. I find KDE3.5 and KDE4 comparisons are rather like GIMP and Photoshop........as a generality, each can do the job superbly, but each has its own way of doing things and you just have to learn them.....terms may or may not be similar in the menus, and the menu structures are certainly quite different. In that sense, KDE3.5 and KDE4 are not "*that* different" as you said above, they are in fact, very different. As a result, people do not readily transfer one to the other as it is a full relearning process and that has been proven in very carefully set up trials with children on GIMP and Photoshop. A blogger on another site said two days ago that he considered KDE4.x at the moment to be equivalent to KDE3.2, and he meant in terms of usefulness and ease of use. My original concept in the first rather innocuous posting, was more or less the same: KDE4 is a work in progress....to be watched and trialled occasionally and then possibly used when KDE4 has reached sufficient maturity - probably at least at KDE4.5. What has astounded me is the way an innocent posting has once more hurtled into a strong attack on KDE4 and its direction, and this is the third time in about as many days. At the very least, there seem to me to be common threads in all the material and perhaps it is time for the KDE4 team to look again at what is being said. One cannot go back, but perhaps KDE4 can be developed in such a way that it is easier for a KDE3.5 transition. I said this 8 months ago on another site.......but as far as I am aware......silence. |
| azerthoth Jan 29, 2010 7:44 PM EDT |
No gus, your right it is not illogical to switch to a different DE, it is illogical to switch to a different DE and learn their way of doing things and rant on about not wanting to learn the (as DiBosco pointed out) relatively minor changes in what you changed from. @dino, I can not form your opinions of functionality for you, especially as some distros seem to have a more broken implementation than others. I have compiled my own under Gentoo which gives me rather more flexibility than what ever gets pushed out from binary distros. @bob, please dont trot out that gnome has a lighter foot print argument. It wasn't true 3 years ago and its not true now. Nor does KDE have the hard dependency for consolekit that Gnome does, there is 100 extra useless processes right there. I can say that it's not true because I'm not parroting 'common knowledge' I have actually done the baselines, the results of those tests are probably floating around debian-administration.org somewhere still. |
| DiBosco Jan 29, 2010 8:07 PM EDT |
Ridcully, I apologise for being a teensy bit unkind. :~) I understand your frustrations and I will respectfully agree to disagree with both the severity of the changes involved in learning KDE4 and how useful KDE4 now is. I really do hope that by KDE4.5 (or at some future release) you will find that KDE works for you again. |
| jdixon Jan 29, 2010 8:19 PM EDT |
> As has been pointed out previously, if certain features have gone, write to the program's maintainers and ask them for to be reinstated Numerous people have detailed their problems with KDE4, on numerous occasions. Some, like TC's' have been well written and coherent. Others have been less so. However, the responses have been fairly uniform. The writer has been insulted and the requests ignored or declared already fixed. > ...and the existing problems could be simply fixed by filling a bug report, being patient and using KDE3.5 in the meantime. It's now been more than a year since KDE 4.0 was released. How long are KDE user's expected to wait? > It's not the developers that are whining like children, it's the users! AFAICT, it's both. Now, which of them has accepted a responsibility which requires them to act like an adult? I normally use XFCE. I seldom use KDE 3. I expect to use KDE 4 about as often. I expect that I can make either meet my needs. However, my respect for the KDE4 developers is non-existent at this point. Dino is absolutely right. They've acted like spoiled children. |
| ComputerBob Jan 29, 2010 9:04 PM EDT |
Quoting:@bob, please dont trot out that gnome has a lighter foot print argument. It wasn't true 3 years ago and its not true now. Nor does KDE have the hard dependency for consolekit that Gnome does, there is 100 extra useless processes right there. I can say that it's not true because I'm not parroting 'common knowledge' I have actually done the baselines, the results of those tests are probably floating around debian-administration.org somewhere still.Was that comment directed at me? If it was, then I'm confused -- I haven't mentioned or even implied anything about GNOME. (Personally, I used GNOME for less than one week in 2006 before moving to KDE, and I've never looked back, but that's beside the point.) Again, I haven't mentioned or even implied anything about GNOME. ;) |
| azerthoth Jan 29, 2010 9:32 PM EDT |
My apologies CB, Gnome did seem implied to me in your previous comment. |
| ComputerBob Jan 29, 2010 10:35 PM EDT |
@azerthoth - Looking back at my previous comment, I'll bet it was my use of the word "environment" that gave you the wrong impression, but I assure you that I meant it in the most generic sense, not in the "desktop environment" sense. ;) |
| tuxchick Jan 29, 2010 10:38 PM EDT |
Beer. |
| gus3 Jan 29, 2010 11:29 PM EDT |
/me lifts a pint |
| dinotrac Jan 29, 2010 11:43 PM EDT |
gus3 -- It ain't the lifting that matters, old man, it's the downing. |
| gus3 Jan 30, 2010 12:52 AM EDT |
If I won't down, I won't lift. After all, what's the point of a pint? |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 30, 2010 11:09 AM EDT |
I'll skip the beer and have a shot of tequila. Just one, thank you, I'm typing. In the last 24 hours, I've been setting up a new system to replace a failing HP laptop. Don't you know, on the one machine that didn't get the extended warrantee, the motherboard cracks. Ugh. Anyway, because it's a brand new Asus laptop, it needs a newer kernel than what's available for Debian Stable. And we all know what that means: KDE4. It's usable. Finding anything is difficult, I miss Kcontrol and Kinfocenter greatly. Having 3.5 and 4 side by side is, politely put, insulting to 4. The "desktop view" vs. "file view" is VERY frustrating, and I have yet to figure out how to 1: get a system and trash icon, or 2: get "delete" as an option for desktop files. Now neither of these is required for operation, of course. But it requires opening konqueror or dolphin in order to do operations that used to be utterly simple. That doesn't mean that I object to getting rid of the entire "Desktop" directory idea and having the graphica UI point to the user's home directory. I think that's actually a GOOD thing. Lastly, where in #$%^& do I turn on device icons? One of the things I really like about KDE is that devices like disks in the CD drive, USB drive, memory cards, you know, DEVICES, can show up on the desktop and have the impossibly wonderful attribute of having a context menu to unmount and eject (safely remove) and then GO AWAY when I can pull the plug on them. Frustrating. And yes, I'm sure it's just that I haven't found the setting yet. ...unless that feature is actually gone which would suck profuse donkey tail. |
| TxtEdMacs Jan 30, 2010 11:19 AM EDT |
To All: with very uncharacteristic [serious] tags - begin now. dino, sorry those that contribute their time and only receive, at best, bragging rights can do as they please. Even when they arguably hijacked an extant, high visibility, high reputation project. Unless and until those users that want KDE 3.x like utilitarian functionality returned are willing and able to fund a new cadre of developers they must be prepared to move away from the new product direction they so avidly dislike. On the side of those that support the current direction, they must remember the tenet, i.e. first impressions count. So when these developers poisoned the brand by insisting that 4.0 was ready to be the default and heaping abuse upon a distribution that resisted on solid grounds to stay with 3.x, they too should take a good portion of the blame for a sizable portion of their former users resisting. I have since noticed several instances where I have read that KDE is Now Ready at version 4.X. Nonetheless, due to the early behaviour of the developers, that is a tune too easily resisted by those sorely offended. The developers of KDE 4 must accept that with their freedom to do as they please comes accountability. That is, those that are offended can and will walk away feeling justifiably spurned and embittered. To perhaps this small minority the KDE brand will be forever sullied For clarity, I am a long time user of Gnome (even contributed cash), but I make little use of its features or its lack of the afore mentioned. However, I had hoped I might have liked KDE sufficiently to have moved to it. Unfortunately, I have not even tested it, since I was offended not by its look, but by the obvious disingenuousness with which it was pushed early in its release phase. Time to end this [/serious] crap. Your Ol' Buddy Txt. |
| Koriel Jan 30, 2010 12:10 PM EDT |
From my perspective, regardless of the fact that i like KDE4 and the direction its heading in, I can very easily say that even at this stage it is still not ready to be used by joe six pack due to the number of bugs so when the devs said that it was ready at 4.0 that was just so plainly wrong as for some folks saying it works fine for them Ive tried KDE4 under Fedora 12, Mandriva 2010 and PCLinuxOS all have been buggy, not show stoppers but very annoying either im incredibly unlucky or its buggy you decide. Im willing to put up with these problems cause i like kde4 but promote it to others in its current state not on your nelly, I show all the fancy stuff to my mates and the wife is suitably impressed but I also qualify it with the statement its a definite work in progress, just how long its going to be a work in progress is anyones guess, as for the KDE4 developers they really need to start listening and learn from their mistakes as for us users we should just try and bide our time with kde3.5, gnome, xfce we are fairly spoilt for choice, im reasonably convinced that KDE4 will become a great DE eventually and if the dolphin window i have open doesnt segfault on closing, i'll buy everyone a beer. Cheers PS. It segfaulted :) |
| dinotrac Jan 30, 2010 1:03 PM EDT |
txt - You are dead flat wrong. Not taking money is not the same thing as working for free. Money is, of itself, worthless. It's value comes only as a medium of exchange. Before there was money, there was barter. The KDE developers are drawing value from their work. If they value bragging rights enough to justify their involvement, then those bragging rights are worth money to them, because they could be coding side jobs for money. If they do it for the resume points, that is worth money, too. Value is value, and a great deal of the value those guys hijacked came from the goodwill built by the KDE team over the years. if it weren't for that, nobody would give a rat's tailfeathers what they did. |
| DiBosco Jan 30, 2010 3:12 PM EDT |
Quoting:The "desktop view" vs. "file view" is VERY frustrating, and I have yet to figure out how to 1: get a system and trash icon, or 2: get "delete" as an option for desktop files. Bob, I'm using Mandriva, but I assume these things are essentially the same. I have a wastebin by default, but you can create one either by adding a watsebin widget by unlocking widgets and adding one, or right click on the desktop and choose create link to location URL. Call it whatever you want (you might prefer Trash to wastebin!) and enter the URL as trash:/ I must admit, the URL thing is not intuitive (I had to Google that - but was quick to find), but I'm surprised the distro doesn't have it by default. The adding widget thing is intuitive though IMHO. The delete thing for me is right click and move to wastebin, or highlight and hit the delete key. Do you not have the option of move to wastebin? Quoting:Lastly, where in #$%^& do I turn on device icons? This one is very intuitive, it's simply right click on the desktop and Create New | Link To Device. One thing to note though, and this is one of those things that I prefer in KDE4 now, is that clicking on the "devices plugged in" icon in the bottom left hand corner brings up all things like CD, USB drive, camera etc which you can use to open in Dolphin/konqueror as your preference or open with k3b or eject and so on. This means you're not having to minimise your desktop to access them. Again, this is standard with Mandriva, maybe not with Debian? Quoting:From my perspective, regardless of the fact that i like KDE4 and the direction its heading in, I can very easily say that even at this stage it is still not ready to be used by joe six pack due to the number of bugs so when the devs said that it was ready at 4.0 that was just so plainly wrong as for some folks saying it works fine for them Ive tried KDE4 under Fedora 12, Mandriva 2010 and PCLinuxOS all have been buggy, not show stoppers but very annoying either im incredibly unlucky or its buggy you decide This was exactly my take up until around the third or fourth set of updates in Mandriva 2010. I would dabble with it [KDE4] on my spare laptop and desktop just for browsing, photo manipulation etc that wasn't critical. I can honestly say I've hardly had an issue since then and I now find it as fast as KDE3.5. Maybe I've been a bit luckier with my hardware, but I wonder whether you've tried the latest updates? You are spot on though with the devs stupidly saying it was ready as 4.0. That was a massive mistake on their part. |
| DiBosco Jan 30, 2010 3:19 PM EDT |
Oh, sorry, forgot to mention:Quoting:It's usable. Finding anything is difficult, I miss Kcontrol and Kinfocenter greatly. Maybe kinfocentre's just not installed? It's in the Mandriva repositories but not installed by default. I'm mystified as to you missing kcontrol, it's in the tools menu as configure your desktop for me. Again, maybe it's just not installed as default on Debian? |
| Koriel Jan 30, 2010 5:14 PM EDT |
@DiBosco
Nope havent tried the latest updates, I distro hop a lot on one of my machines as being a developer I need to check out the software i write on multiple distros which I usually blow away afterwards so I only had Mandriva 2010 around a few days, I keep Fedora & Slackware around permanently along with my normal desktop of PCLinuxOS, It will probably be about a month before the latest updates appear on PClinuxOS, as KDE4 is still pretty much in beta testing on that distro. I should mention that the first thing I do is turn of desktop view and switch to folder view, Im an old dog who can learn new tricks, just not that new trick. As for find things such as adding delete to the context menu, cant say i had a problem, when i first used KDE4 i spent a day re-learning where everything was after that i was pretty much good to go. Most of the settings are available from the control area the rest i find are pretty much accessible by right clicking either the desktop, task bar or plasmoid. The only thing that ever gave me a problem was adding an application to the taskpanel, that took me awhile to figure out, turned out you have to unlock widgets before the "Add to panel" would become an option in the programs menu. Kinda felt a bit dumb for not figuring it out sooner but there ya go. You have a point on the wastebin, for some reason on PCLinuxOS the waste bin isnt created on the desktop but it is on Mandriva, and Fedora so its probably a distro thing, the easiest way to fix it is to add the trash plasmoid to the desktop. |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 30, 2010 7:05 PM EDT |
DiB, > This one is very intuitive, it's simply right click on the desktop and Create New | Link To Device. No, it's not "intuitive", it's impossible. What I was wondering was where the "device icons on desktop" setup is, and you have told me it no longer exists. I have to create them by hand, and they do not appear and disappear as the device is made available and removed. Too bad. That was one of the features of KDE3 I really liked. The "device icon" on the lower left is, sadly, just mimicking how Windows does it. Same with the default "menu by some other name", that, thank Cromm, was easy enough to turn back into a usable tree once someone who already knew how to do it told me where the setting was. (it's not, counter to being anything like INTUITIVE, NOT IN "SETTINGS"!) |
| DiBosco Jan 30, 2010 7:28 PM EDT |
OK, sorry Bob, I misunderstood what you meant (and still don't understand what you mean to be honest). I don't know what device icons on desktop means in that case. I don't understand what you mean by "No, it's not "intuitive", it's impossible." Please to be explaining! I don't really mind if the device icon is mimicking Windows. Much as I despise Microsoft, they have a good idea once every few years. ;~) I agree with you about the kickoff menu - that's horrible. Mandriva did originally go with that as default, but it's back to the old style now. You're welcome on the wastebin, control centre etc help though. ;~) |
| azerthoth Jan 30, 2010 7:50 PM EDT |
Bob that can be moved anywhere on the taskbar, or even onto the desktop. |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 30, 2010 8:04 PM EDT |
> I don't know what device icons on desktop means in that case. Put a disk in the CD drive, the CD comes up as an icon on the desktop. Or USB drive, or floppy, whatever. Context menu for "eject", "remove" etc dependent upon the device. Have you NEVER USED KDE3? > Bob that can be moved anywhere on the taskbar, or even onto the desktop. I don't want it moved, I want it irrelevant. But no, that option is gone. Sad. |
| azerthoth Jan 30, 2010 10:33 PM EDT |
did you miss that I said that your little auto devices can be on your desktop? so that they show up as they are recognized? exact same function with all the things that you just listed. |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 31, 2010 6:18 PM EDT |
> so that they show up as they are recognized? Yes, in fact that was entirely missed. I didn't want to create an icon for a CD, for example, which sat there on the desktop when there was no CD in the drive. That they appear and vanish as the media is inserted or removed was neither explicit nor implied in your post. > exact same function with all the things that you just listed. Same, no. Turning on device icons in KDE3 was a one-time thing. I didn't have to make one by hand for thumb drives, one for memory card(s?), one for DVDs, one for CDs, etc etc etc. |
| azerthoth Jan 31, 2010 6:29 PM EDT |
bob you dont have to make a darned thing. you drop a cd in, plug a USB drive in, want pull files from a SD card, it just shows up. YOU the user dont make icons for it, my goodness, how many ways do I have to say the same thing. |
| jacog Feb 01, 2010 4:10 AM EDT |
Yarr, I rather like having the removable media devices thingy in the panel, but it works just as well if you dump it on your desktop. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 01, 2010 10:48 AM EDT |
> YOU the user dont make icons for it, my goodness, how many ways do I have to say the same thing. Az, go back and read what was written. He said "right click to make a device icon". So how, from that, am I to conclude anything other than the fact that I, as the user, much create the icons? > Yarr, I rather like having the removable media devices thingy in the panel, An option which I can fully understand having. If anywhere in "systemsettings" it had had "device icons / device tray" option, hooray. But it's not a setting, it's "the way it's done now". I have not said one way is better than another, only that I prefer the removable media to appear as desktop icons. > but it works just as well if you dump it on your desktop. Ah, but we're back to the original question: How does one "dump it on {the} desktop"? |
| jacog Feb 01, 2010 5:03 PM EDT |
> Ah, but we're back to the original question: How does one "dump it on {the} desktop"? Everything in the panel (well, pretty much everything) is made up of plasmoids, including the removable media widget. So to have it on your desktop, you open up your Add Widgets dialog, and then just drag and drop the removable media one onto your desktop and position/size it wherever. It may seem a bit limiting at first to have them in a specified place on the desktop, but helps keep things neat and organised. |
| jdixon Feb 01, 2010 5:45 PM EDT |
> ...you open up your Add Widgets dialog, and then just drag and drop the removable media one onto your desktop and position/size it wherever. But doesn't that just duplicate the functionality of the current widget, which (as I understand the description) displays all of your removal media in one location? Bob wants separate icons for each device on the desktop, but only when they're actually present. The way KDE3, Gnome, and XFCE work. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 02, 2010 9:15 AM EDT |
JD, I really could be satisfied with the answer "No, it just doesn't work that way any more, nor will it." |
| jacog Feb 02, 2010 9:30 AM EDT |
Well, removable device icons are no longer icons that you can mix and match with files, directories, etc. Now they are contained in a bit of screen real estate of their own. You *can* have them in a box on your desktop by plonking the widget there, but in reality neither that, nor the dynamic icons on desktop as per kde3/gnome/whatever scheme is the best way to do it. So... No, it just doesn't work that way any more, nor will it. The old way is cluttery and in the way. It's rubbish, good riddance to it. |
| TxtEdMacs Feb 02, 2010 9:43 AM EDT |
Bob, Give it up, logical is no longer optimal nor does it fit the trends in design. Hey an indicator a drive has content and is ready for use is so passé, no one that counts would be caught dead using it. Get with the times or be left behind crying for simple sense. Those times are gone, if they were ever here. I guess that explains why nothing is intuitive to me ... YBT |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 02, 2010 9:46 AM EDT |
> So... No, it just doesn't work that way any more, nor will it. Thank you. That is far better than trying to tell me how I'm wrong. > but in reality neither that, nor the ... scheme is the best way to do it. My mistake, I wrote too soon. > The old way is cluttery and in the way. It's rubbish, good riddance to it. Keep that in mind when you see other people say "KDE4, good riddance to it." |
| jacog Feb 02, 2010 10:17 AM EDT |
Bob, your attempt at a sarcastic jab failed since I wrote the "No, it just doesn't..." bit AFTER the bit you responded "My mistake, I wrote too soon" to. So, basically by that I can assume you prefer illogical workflows and backwards thinking. :D Anyway, the whole thread has gone to waste. Might as well break out the politics and see how far it goes before getting locked. :) How 'bout them Republicans, eh? |
| dinotrac Feb 02, 2010 10:41 AM EDT |
>How 'bout them Republicans, eh? Hmmm. KDE developers are making them look miiiiiighty good. When Obama fixed the economy and got everybody back to work, Republicans became irrelevant anyway. |
| gus3 Feb 02, 2010 1:07 PM EDT |
Quoting:How 'bout them Republicans, eh?Are they with the American League or the National League? |
| jdixon Feb 02, 2010 1:10 PM EDT |
> No, it just doesn't work that way any more, nor will it. An acceptable answer. > The old way is cluttery and in the way. It's rubbish, good riddance to it. An opinion, not an answer (One that seems to mimic the attitude the KDE4 developers have taken from the beginning, admittedly). And one that many people may disagree with. Of course, they're free to choose another desktop environment. Oh, wait, most of them already have... KDE4 may eventually become a great desktop environment, with wonderful applications. Of course, there may not be any users left to know about it by that time. |
| gus3 Feb 02, 2010 1:17 PM EDT |
Quoting:An opinion, not an answerWill you say that after a newly-mounted volume's icon appears directly on top of another, pre-existing icon, and you have to move the new icon to get to the old one? Arbitrary placement of icons is nice, for me. It's worth the minor clutter, for me. But it's still clutter. |
| jdixon Feb 02, 2010 1:21 PM EDT |
> Will you say that after a newly-mounted volume's icon appears directly on top of another, pre-existing icon, and you have to move the new icon to get to the old one? I've never had that happen except under a certain proprietary OS. But yes, it's still an opinion, whether that happens or not. |
| DiBosco Feb 02, 2010 2:55 PM EDT |
Quoting:Put a disk in the CD drive, the CD comes up as an icon on the desktop. Or USB drive, or floppy, whatever. Context menu for "eject", "remove" etc dependent upon the device. Bob, there's no need to shout. I was politely trying to help you and I misunderstood what you meant. It's been quite some time since Mandriva had an icon on the desktop when you plugged something in on KDE3; it brings up an icon on the system tray which you click on now (maybe your distro is different?). I thought you were asking for an icon specifically on the desktop itself, which is why I was suggesting you add an icon. So, please, have a little patience with someone who was doing their best to help you and misunderstood. I have used KDE since 2001. My *opinion* is that the way it is now done is just as easy and as nice as an extra icon popping up in the sys tray and I think it is much better than having to minimise to the desktop to click on an icon that has appeared there. My *opinion* (again!) is that there is an incredible resistance to small change and I just don't understand it. The new way of new things being plugged is neither better nor worse, but it takes next to no time to get your head round it. Honestly, if things like that bug you so much I don't know how you ever coped with Linux from Windows in the first place. Quoting:KDE4 may eventually become a great desktop environment, with wonderful applications. Of course, there may not be any users left to know about it by that time. KDE running out of users is never going to happen, because just as eighteen months ago there were interminable posts all over the web about KDE4 simply not working, there are now absolutely stacks of posts with people saying that they are growing to love KDE4 and those posts will increases as will the number of users. I have seen quite a few Gnome users say they have come over to KDE since KDE4 was implemented for example. I'm starting to think that maybe for some it's purely a matter of taste and for others it's just a resistance to change. Again, this last part is only my opinion. This is all quite aside from some programs not yet being as functional as KDE3 equivalents, but I am absolutely convinced that those problems will be fixed. Of course, only time will tell on that. |
| dinotrac Feb 02, 2010 3:16 PM EDT |
>I have used KDE3 since 2001. rant_mode = 1 (with apologies to Paul Ferris) Pretty impressive. KDE3 was useful in betas (and alphas, as I recall) -- and you must agree as you were using it before it went 3.0 in april, 2002. Really impressive when you consider that the entire cycle from 2.0->3.0 took 19 months. In fact...the cycle from 1.0->3.0 took less than 4 years. Some pretty substantial changes in that time, too. And yet, we were wrong to expect a usable 4.0 given that it took six years, 50% longer than the 2 previous release cycles combined. rant_mode = 0 |
| DiBosco Feb 02, 2010 4:10 PM EDT |
Oh dear, *so* sorry for putting KDE3 when I meant KDE. Typo corrected. Next time I *will* rant about you using it's instead of its. |
| dinotrac Feb 02, 2010 5:31 PM EDT |
DiBosco Pretty silly to rant about typos. |
| DiBosco Feb 02, 2010 5:50 PM EDT |
I'm glad you see my point. |
| dinotrac Feb 02, 2010 6:54 PM EDT |
Wasn't clear that i was a typo.
You could easily have been using KDE3 in 2001, just as I was. Alphas came out in the fall and the first beta came out in December. Prior to KDE4, you didn't need to wait for the x.0 release to have a good desktop. |
| DiBosco Feb 02, 2010 8:20 PM EDT |
Oh, I see, you weren't ranting because you'd thought I thought I was using KDE3 before its release, but because of long dev cycles? No idea whether it's really been six years, but I don't mind how long they took - they've got it almost there (and perfectly usable) now and I've had the older version to be using in the meanwhile. |
| dinotrac Feb 02, 2010 9:11 PM EDT |
Not so much long cycles as long (and, as yet, incomplete) cycle -- singular. To date, it's been more than 7 years for a truly usable full-featured KDE 4.0. Quite a turnabout from past performance. |
| Bob_Robertson Feb 03, 2010 12:21 AM EDT |
> So, please, have a little patience with someone who was doing their best to help you and misunderstood.
Good sir, it came across as being deliberately obtuse. > I have used KDE since 2001. Well, I've got a full year on you then, I had Dragon Linux with KDE colocated on my first, and last, Win95 laptop, in 2000. I was so impressed that when I killed 95 by accident, and reformatted with Debian, I kept using KDE, and have continued to do so. Having found out during these KDE4 discussions that XFCE puts removable devices on the desktop, I'm going to give it a serious try when I have to abandon KDE3 with the next Debian stable release. Maybe I'll be able to figure out how to put all the menu bars on the top, or bottom, because I don't like having both. That's the last objection I've had to XFCE in the little time I've spent with it. I certainly don't prefer XFCE to KDE3, but there's nothing left to lose but the condecention. |
| gus3 Feb 03, 2010 1:08 AM EDT |
Quoting:the next Debian stable release.Isn't that one of the horses of the Apocalypse? |
| jdixon Feb 03, 2010 6:52 AM EDT |
> Having found out during these KDE4 discussions that XFCE puts removable devices on the desktop To be fair, Bob, Slackware's implementation of XFCE does. I haven't tried with any other distro. |
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