A Trend
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| kingttx Jan 28, 2010 1:12 PM EDT |
This is beginning to feel like a trend. Didn't mono just have its license changed to something other than GPL recently? |
| vect Jan 28, 2010 9:48 PM EDT |
Could you do a little investigation first before calling attention to yourself? http://www.mono-project.com/License Mono is multi-licensed and so you could build software and release it under gpl2 or a proprietary license. |
| kingttx Feb 01, 2010 1:35 PM EDT |
You are so ready to jump down anyone's throat, right?
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/opensource/?p=1155 This was what I was talking about, I couldn't find the reference in time for your highness. Get over yourself. |
| dinotrac Feb 01, 2010 4:11 PM EDT |
>Get over yourself. Sounds like good advice all around. |
| kingttx Feb 01, 2010 6:00 PM EDT |
I think I'm doing just fine, TYVM. ;) |
| dinotrac Feb 02, 2010 12:01 AM EDT |
That, I suspect, surprises no one. |
| kingttx Feb 02, 2010 11:55 AM EDT |
Yep, ask a simple question, get a snarky, condescending answer, expect more of the same in reply. And the beat goes on... |
| gus3 Feb 02, 2010 1:11 PM EDT |
http://faultline.org/index.php/site/item/incendiary/ |
| jdixon Feb 02, 2010 1:14 PM EDT |
> And the beat goes on... And will continue to do so as long as you provide a drum. Is that surprising? |
| kingttx Feb 02, 2010 3:11 PM EDT |
Naw, not surprising. Halfway amusing, though. Lots of geek ego starting with post #2. :) |
| vect Feb 02, 2010 7:30 PM EDT |
Kingttx, You were prompted to support your post with something more substantial than an idle question. You could have simply provided your link, but rather you took things personally, acted like you were bullied and you've made a big stink of this thread. Stop acting like a loser. |
| vect Feb 02, 2010 7:36 PM EDT |
In case anyone didn't notice, the article kingttx linked to says that Icaza is replacing mono's gpl code with lgpl code. Not a big deal. |
| gus3 Feb 02, 2010 10:24 PM EDT |
In other words, the article affirms what kingttx says. An incisive critique indeed, vect. I'd take offense as well, if a simple question got turned into an accusation of narcissism. (That's the part where you said "calling attention to yourself," in case you missed it.) |
| vect Feb 02, 2010 11:30 PM EDT |
gus3, You're right about that. 'calling attention to yourself' was a rude response :). |
| tuxchick Feb 02, 2010 11:34 PM EDT |
What trend? One or two examples are a long way from a trend. |
| gus3 Feb 03, 2010 12:06 AM EDT |
Right, tc. The minimum needed for a conspiracy is three. |
| vect Feb 03, 2010 12:12 AM EDT |
HAHAHA of all the people who would breath more life into this thread, I would have never guessed one of them would be tuxchick! On the topic of a 'trend'... I don't see a trend either. That is not the problem I see here. The problem is that some people, like kingttx, are over-skeptical and over-hostile toward software that's not gpl-licensed. I humbly ask people here to read an article I've made a link to below. It is written by an expert hacker and computer user. An effective point the article makes, is that the hostile attitude of Free Software advocates is based upon defending a certain belief system that comes along with using Free Software (ie, a religion). http://www.lambdassociates.org/blog/the_problems_of_open_sou... A trend that we need to see is a trend away from knee-jerk skepticism of non-gpl software. If such a trend takes place, it will be a positive sign of lucid-thinking and may signal growth for the open source user-space. |
| gus3 Feb 03, 2010 1:31 AM EDT |
Quoting:The problem is that some people, like kingttx, are over-skeptical and over-hostile toward software that's not gpl-licensed.I won't speak for anyone else, and in fact I know some here will disagree with me on this, but "not GPL-licensed" isn't the show-stopper for me, in the case of Mono. It's the nature of the project, tainted by Microsoft. Frankly, I wouldn't touch it with a hundred-metre Cat5 cable, even if Microsoft had put it under a BSD-style or MIT-style license, or into the public domain. Their business model; their outrageously poor approach to security; and their malevolence towards everyone, including their business partners, render them utterly untrustworthy. But that's just me. |
| vect Feb 03, 2010 2:41 AM EDT |
gus3, You're feelings on MSFT are another subject altogether. The point is that a 'trend' towards the appearance of non-gpl licenses in OSS user-space should be welcomed. If such a trend happens, you'll be able to support or frustrate sales of a product by purchasing it or ignoring it or undermining it with another product. Right now, we don't have that choice on our desktop because linux users insist everything be gpl-licensed. Under the gpl there is no a way for successful innovation to _secure_ a reward for itself. Don't support MSFT. Do appreciate that they are trying to break some ground here. The ground breaking will need to be done by strong companies like MSFT. A lot of sites support flash, but now that apple has firmly continued to reject flash, web designers are forced to provide flash alternatives in order to make web pages more accessible. A similar scenario could work itself out in linux-land, but only with the support of users like us. If a few companies would begin releasing innovative products for linux people would buy those products. If the products were highly visible and high-profile, for example final-cut-pro, people would insist on using distros that are able to run that software and users would scream loudly if an idealistic developer somewhere decided it was his/her duty to begin breaking things. The collective pressure would force a lot of positive user-driven changes in linux-land. |
| gus3 Feb 03, 2010 4:22 AM EDT |
Quoting:Don't support MSFT. Do appreciate that they are trying to break some ground here.They're trying to break a lot more than "some ground here." Quoting:users would scream loudly if an idealistic developer somewhere decided it was his/her duty to begin breaking things.Ummmm, KDE4 anyone? That collective pressure hasn't accomplished much. |
| vect Feb 03, 2010 4:36 AM EDT |
I can't say anything to that. I hadn't thought of KDE4 as an example. Open Source is helpless. |
| jacog Feb 03, 2010 7:40 AM EDT |
> Ummmm, KDE4 anyone? Cept KDE4 is not "broken" in the broader context, it's exactly as it should be. Most objections about it are from people that are upset that it's not KDE3. The collective pressure did not accomplish much because there's pressure from the other end as well by users. But I digress, there's anough KDE flamefests on here already. |
| kingttx Feb 03, 2010 12:34 PM EDT |
@vect: "You could have simply provided your link, but rather you took things personally, acted like you were bullied and you've made a big stink of this thread. Stop acting like a loser." So the same back atcha, bud! You could have replied simply with a link and a courteous comment about my question, yet you decided to jump down my throat. If you are feeling defensive about mono, since that was the example I used, that's all on you. No need to get snippy about it. @tuxchick: I'm not the only one noticing a trend (http://blogs.the451group.com/opensource/2010/01/28/as-the-gp...). I'm not terribly thrilled with the reasoning behind it, either. Although many of the licenses being swapped for are considered Free/Open Source, the reasoning behind it picks at my thoughts. From the article linked in this comment, the gist seems to be some businesses are stuck in the old mode where they just cannot get past building "IP" and cannot fathom any other way to use FOSS other than screw with the licensing. The crux of my squirming and the initial question is, if projects start with the GPL and then later feel the need to move away from the GPL for business reasons, it feels like they're more concerned with placating MBA-types that feel like they absolutely must have "IP" built into code rather than continuing with the Freedom they initially enjoyed and gave. Like control rods for a nuclear reactor, I hope there is some stop-gap to 1) keep code improvements Free (since code already under FOSS licensing cannot be revoked), and, 2) keep projects from increasingly taking advantage of the community and then crippling the code either by limiting the function of the Open code and keeping meaningful code closed, or by slowly sliding completely away from FOSS licenses altogether. Slippery slope? Perhaps. I hope these are simply a few errant examples. |
| kingttx Feb 03, 2010 3:43 PM EDT |
@vect: "Do appreciate that they are trying to break some ground here. The ground breaking will need to be done by strong companies like MSFT." Eh, what about all the MSFT apologists that claim GNU/Linux is merely riding Windows' coattails, that MSFT somehow has all the innovation and GNU/Linux is simply copying them? There are probably hundreds of such comments scattered in forums yet you appear to be advocating more of the same. |
| dinotrac Feb 03, 2010 4:08 PM EDT |
Gus3 -- Hey!! Take solace that Microsoft has finally found something that's hard to break. |
| vect Feb 03, 2010 7:07 PM EDT |
Jacog, Why can't people who are happy with KDE3 continue getting support for KDE3? It's another flag signaling problems in the open source model. There is no force that requires these people to respect users. Nobody would criticize KDE4 if its developers had not usurped the KDE3 user-space for making changes. KDE3 project did not respect itself or its users when it allowed the KDE4 devs to use the name 'KDE' and monopolize KDE3 resources. Such a major revision change is really a fork and appropriately should have a unique name and a separate development structure. KDE should have focused on maintaining its KDE3 identify and maybe contributing small resources to the new project that might, one day, become the alternative to KDE3. |
| vect Feb 03, 2010 7:13 PM EDT |
Jacog, There was no leader to protect and defend KDE3. Why? Because strong leadership requires the legitimizing influence of capital, something KDE can't have. Since the same situation is working itself out with Gnome, we can observe that a lack of good leadership is not unique to KDE, but is a major problem in the OSS development model. |
| gus3 Feb 03, 2010 10:34 PM EDT |
Quoting:Cept KDE4 is not "broken" in the broader context, it's exactly as it should be."Should be," according to whom? And what about the way it "should be," vis-a-vis upcoming patches? |
| jacog Feb 04, 2010 3:58 AM EDT |
vect: I don't think anyone would object if there was a KDE3 maintenance and further development initiative. It's a big task to take up though. It's prolly easier to just get involved with KDE4 and help shape it. T The nonsense about "developers attitudes" is overblown. I now have three feature requests that I supported that all got added, and never got any snark from them about any of it. Developers knee-jerk when they hear "WAAAAA it's useless because it won't let me do x, y, or z". I would too. Easy does it, as they say. KDE is, like a lot of FOSS, a community project. Become part of the community, use it, own it. It's actually rather fun too. |
| dinotrac Feb 04, 2010 8:42 AM EDT |
>The nonsense about "developers attitudes" is overblown. I recently read a really nice review in the NYT of Sarah Palin's autobiography "Going Rogue". What made it nice was not the review itself, per se, but a discussion of the critical differences between biography and autobiography. Seems POV matters. A lot. Wonder if that's true elsewhere in life? |
| jacog Feb 04, 2010 9:52 AM EDT |
> Wonder if that's true elsewhere in life? Indeed. Like is the pole up one's butt an aid to keep one upright, or just a hinderance? |
| dinotrac Feb 04, 2010 10:58 AM EDT |
>Like is the pole up one's butt an aid to keep one upright, or just a hinderance? Don't know. You tell me. |
| jacog Feb 04, 2010 11:14 AM EDT |
Heeeee, the only comebacks that come to mind at this point are rather rude and inappropriate for public consumption, I'm afraid. :D |
| dinotrac Feb 04, 2010 11:27 AM EDT |
jacog -- Glad to see there is still room for, ummm, reason! FWIW -- I vote hindrance. |
| vect Feb 04, 2010 6:31 PM EDT |
Jacog, Your perspective is EXACTLY the problem with open source. It's a 'community' project. Don't hold the 'community' responsible. Let's contribute to the 'community'. The concept of the 'community' is a myth. As a label the word is often used to invert the meaning of the thing it signifies. Think about it very hard. Historically, the rebellious inclination to break things and replace the old with the new isn't useful for 'communities'. What has been useful is stability, consistency and incremental change. The 'disorder' inherent in a 'community' driven project like KDE would make it ineffective as a capitalist market entity. For some, it may be easier to drop KDE3 and move on to KDE4, but continued support for KDE3 at this stage is the right thing to do. You can choose to ignore that, but it's still there. |
| azerthoth Feb 04, 2010 6:55 PM EDT |
Sadly vect your contempt of 'community' falls apart rather rapidly when examined. Your point would hold true were there no guidance from a person or committee of people who perform peer review. The development model for the Linux kernel is a prime example of this. Linus trusts a handful of people, who in turn trust a handful of people, and so on. Each vetting the work done both cross and downstream, with accountability. Everyone seems to be of the opinion that KDE3.x is no longer in existence. Sadly this is incorrect, I can go home this evening and had I the desire, install it on of my currently running systems. What everyone is belaboring and mis representing is that more and more binary distributions are dropping it. The code is still there and functional, any person or group of people who want to expand or continue it are more than welcome to. It is the mark of hubris that you would insist that once someone has scratched their developmental/creative itch that they keep scratching yours. |
| dinotrac Feb 04, 2010 7:21 PM EDT |
Azer -- Nobody thinks KDE3 is not longer in existence. Heck, WindowMaker and FVWM are still in existence too, as is XFree86. However, KDE users used to believe that the KDE team would keep current and develop the best desktop in the world, instead of casting it into a virtual graveyard to be pointed at and told "Hey! If you're too dense to appreciate what we think you should like, you can still use that stuff over there. Maybe whip a few buggies while you're at it, loser." |
| azerthoth Feb 04, 2010 7:33 PM EDT |
Dino, It really does come across that way. [deleted several brilliant paragraphs about expectations, change, and a bit of no **** sherlock, that has been hashed over way too many times.] |
| vect Feb 04, 2010 7:47 PM EDT |
azerthoth, How do your observations about the kernel affect my observations about community? 'Careful how you respond. The core kernel developers are paid to do their jobs. Do you consider the kernel a 'community' project? (HINT: Where it benefits the kernel to be a 'community' project, it's a community project) BTW, who do you think benefits MOST from the kernel development? If KDE were catering to users, they would maintain KDE3. They are not catering to users. This is at the heart of problem I'm pointing out. Because KDE is community driven, it will do whatever it wants with no responsibility. Users who criticize their half-assed commitment to the tools they offer are asking too much from tools that are 'free'. How dare we 'proud' users expect anything from KDE, -this stuff is 'free'. We just need to be knocked off our high-horses. The community left hundreds of megabytes of code on the internet for me to download. All I need to do is stop being lazy and start using a text-editor and a compiler. They did their job and now I need to do mine. I can't wait to start mucking around with the old amarok code base... |
| azerthoth Feb 04, 2010 8:06 PM EDT |
Thank you for emphasizing my point so dramatically vect [hint soundbites]. |
| vect Feb 04, 2010 8:07 PM EDT |
azertoth, Btw, Linus has not been the core kernel maintainer in several years. You never really had a complete thought in this thread. |
| azerthoth Feb 04, 2010 8:20 PM EDT |
Still trying to validate your contempt by shifting topics? oh, and the word you were looking for is coherent not complete. Thank you however for completely mis representing that point as well. Thank you as well for trolling, would you please, if you care too, address the real failings of the community model instead of imagined ones in your next response? |
| Scott_Ruecker Feb 04, 2010 8:44 PM EDT |
The only distro I know that defaults to KDE 3.5+ is PCLOS. Are there any others I am not aware of? Forgive the dumb question but where is a good place to pull tarballs of the 3.5 line from off the internet? |
| azerthoth Feb 04, 2010 8:58 PM EDT |
ftp://download.kde.org/pub/kde/stable/
and
ftp://ftp.trolltech.com/qt/source/ Gentoo has KDE3.5.x off in it's own overlay (nutshell def: repo) which makes continued use of it under Gentoo and derivs fairly simple. Doing it yourself, here is some starter information: http://techbase.kde.org/Getting_Started/Build/Stable_Version |
| vect Feb 04, 2010 9:26 PM EDT |
Hello Azerthoth! I can see from this discussion that you would be the perfect new member for The Community Kitchen. At our special community kitchen, you can participate by fixing meals with other chefs in our kitchen or by eating whatever it is we feel like serving! Here's your salad... enjoy. Did you say something? 'Took your plate back before you were finished eating? 'Need a menu with a few fixed items? 'YOU WANTED DRESSING!? OHHH-HO, Hey there Azer-bub buddy we're not THAT kind of 'community'! It's fine if you want to contribute but don't be a complainer, -there's an un-attended half-boiled chicken somewhere in the kitchen from the old 3.5 days. Pop that out and make yourself a sandwich. It's up to YOU to make the kitchen special, not US! We're a community here, bub. Occasionally, Mell Phone and Jane Frame make profits from packaging 'our' 'community' meals with a product. Less occasionally, one of them will throw chump change on the floor (leave it there it's mine THANK YOU). |
| jdixon Feb 04, 2010 9:34 PM EDT |
> It really does come across that way. Yep. Unfortunate, but true. > Are there any others I am not aware of? While Slackware 13 has moved to KDE4, it's reported that the qt3 and kde packages from 12.2 still work fine. |
| vect Feb 04, 2010 9:38 PM EDT |
Azerthoth, if you are being 'mis-represented' that is your own fault. No one is interfering with your ability to post here. |
| azerthoth Feb 04, 2010 9:46 PM EDT |
now thats funny, you avoid the topic and use a kitchen analogy ... fitting, because right now dont feed the trolls is running around in my head. goodbye troll. |
| vect Feb 04, 2010 9:58 PM EDT |
If you can't write something poignant, don't resort to name calling. Just be silent and at least pretend to use your brain for one moment. |
| TxtEdMacs Feb 04, 2010 10:21 PM EDT |
vect,Quoting:[...] don't resort to name callingPerhaps you have not noticed, but I am the only person allowed to practice weak humor on this site's forums. So cease and desist. Should you persist, expect that I will insist upon a formal redress via a court order enforcement with the costs heaped upon your head. For one purporting to believe is such a conservative memes, you act a rampaging bull in a veritable China Shop, that is more the revolutionary bringing proprietary to smother the free and open. The position is filled, I alone am the authorized astroturfer. You are too late and lack the ability to perform the task properly. In closing, regarding the calling of names. If I were "Community", would I be pissed at you. As always, Your Buddy Txt. [aks YBT] |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!