the results of abandoning "don't be evil"
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| Author | Content |
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| gus3 Jan 13, 2010 5:29 AM EDT |
From http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/01/new-approach-to-china... :Quoting:These attacks and the surveillance they have uncovered--combined with the attempts over the past year to further limit free speech on the web--have led us to conclude that we should review the feasibility of our business operations in China. We have decided we are no longer willing to continue censoring our results on Google.cn...This official statement from Google is basically an admission that their executives did not, and do not, care one whit about Freedom. Their motto "Don't be evil" wasn't worth the CPU time to render it in any browser. The words "outrageous," "treacherous," and "%&#@" come to mind. My weblog articles are licensed under CC-BY, but I grant exceptions to citizens of certain nations, and China is at the top of my list. http://gus3.typepad.com/i_am_therefore_i_think/modified-crea... It is not a stretch to say I, more than Google, care about the freedom of China's citizens. And I am not alone. |
| Bob_Robertson Jan 13, 2010 9:25 AM EDT |
> their executives did not, and do not, care one whit about Freedom. Sadly, firms are sorely beset by the requirement of abiding the laws of the countries in which they do business. Yes, anarchist, thinks there aught to be no statute laws, etc, sure. Don't shoot the messenger, I'm talking reality here. Firms like Yahoo and eBay have been successfully sued in French courts, not for selling anything, but for just making Nazi memorabilia _visible_ to French citizens. Such materials are illegal in France, just as all countries have different requirements and prohibitions, by law. What happens when those very proprietary search records are subpoenaed by Homeland Security in the US to track down "terrorists"? And who is going to say that search results for "nuclear reactor plans", "nuclear weapon designs" and such aren't being censored in the US right now? Or that Google Earth pictures of particular locations aren't being fudged, by law, in the US, just as results are censored, by law, in China? I'm not surprised that "abide the law" violates the principle "don't be evil", and I have a lot of personal opinions and reasons why "abide the law" will eventually violate any and all principles. What really bothers me is that anyone acts surprised. Is that because it's China? |
| hkwint Jan 13, 2010 6:09 PM EDT |
Because what is ethical and what is not differs from country to country, and from culture to culture. In my country there are no kangaroos in the wild, so there is now law for kangaroos over here. In the USA there were no Nazis and they didn't rule half of the country. When you say SS, it means something totally different in the US and France. Even when there was no law, things which would be considered morally right in some country may be considered morally wrong in some other country. Law may just be a result of those values. So why blame law if the difference is cultural? |
| azerthoth Jan 13, 2010 6:19 PM EDT |
Which is why I get snippy when people haul out morals as an argument or justification. Morals are nothing more than semi codified opinions. There is no "moral right" only mass delusions used to justify either being able to look down on or force your view point upon some other group that has a divergent delusion. |
| moopst Jan 13, 2010 6:24 PM EDT |
This has me wondering if Google thinks they have enough clout to make China back down. If Google pulls out of China they could still run a search engine in the Chineese language(s) and deal with the Great Chineese Firewall. China's Communist rulers might realize that Google is of some significant value to their economy after all. From a legal standpoint, couldn't the Chineese authorities simply subpoena Google for certain human rights advocates gmail data rather than trying to break in? And didn't they give up someone who was later killed by the Chineese justice system? A few years ago I remember Google boycotted BMW (I think it was bmw.de) because they were providing different results based on where your IP was coming from. Small potatos compared to going up against China. I've also been reading on finance sites that China could push us into a trade war. Good idea that, let's go Smoot Hawley and get a Great Depression going. This will be interesting to follow. |
| moopst Jan 13, 2010 6:41 PM EDT |
Quoting:In the USA there were no Nazis and they didn't rule half of the country. When you say SS, it means something totally different in the US and France.Exactly! When I see Nazi medals and insignia at a flee market in America I assume it is a war trophy taken from someone who got what he had coming (i.e. taken from a dead soldier killed by an American GI). The French would think differently... perhaps a symbol of their hummiliation and defeat, or as a neo-Nazi threat. However, as an American my attitude is if your country can't handle free speech then you have no business on the Internet. Go back to your radios with no dial, only push buttons for preset frequencies and your government censored print media and quit trying to break into someone else's computers. |
| moopst Jan 13, 2010 6:59 PM EDT |
Another thought crossed my mind. In as much as Google is moving to cloud based services they would be very keen to demonstrate that their services (including gmail) are secure. That means that perhaps Google weighs the future value of the cloud against Google.cn (current and future value) and .cn comes up short. So maybe google won't bend - and neither will the Chineese Communist government. |
| jdixon Jan 13, 2010 8:32 PM EDT |
> Morals are nothing more than semi codified opinions. There is no "moral right" That's perilously close to "there is no right or wrong" (from which inevitably follows the maxim that might makes right), and any such discussion will very quickly lead to a TOS violation closed thread. > This has me wondering if Google thinks they have enough clout to make China back down. I doubt it. I think they've just reached their limit of trying to deal with people who keep changing the rules every few days. > From a legal standpoint, couldn't the Chineese authorities simply subpoena Google for certain human rights advocates gmail data rather than trying to break in? Yes, but legal proceeding are usually public matters, even in China. If they don't want publicity (which in the case of activists they surely don't), they may chose a less public route. > I've also been reading on finance sites that China could push us into a trade war. I'm certain they could if they wanted to. But since we're by far their largest export customer, I doubt they really want to. > Good idea that, let's go Smoot Hawley and get a Great Depression going. There's at least a chance that's in progress even without such. U6 is on the order of 18% after all, which is getting fairly close to the 25% estimated during the depression. > So maybe google won't bend - and neither will the Chineese Communist government. A very likely outcome, yes. Of course, it's not like Google is weaponless in this fight. A simple add on to Chrome to have any Chrome user to proxy Chinese IP's (and any Chinese Chrome user to find such) would go a long way to breaking China's firewall. Such things already exist, but they don't have Google's reach. China could wind up winning the battle but losing the war. |
| jdixon Jan 13, 2010 10:02 PM EDT |
And, for a rather politically biased view on the matter, see http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2010/01/an_overdue_ap... Again, discussion of same would almost certainly lead to a TOS thread closure, so I merely post it for those interested. |
| hkwint Jan 14, 2010 4:43 AM EDT |
Moopst: I think China is able to block 99% of Chrome-downloads, P2P software and Google altogether. Those who are really predetermined however, will still be able to find and download that software / visit those websites. It's funny you mention the radio, in my country (probably France as well) it's a symbol of how the Germans in WOII were not able to stop communication between the UK and the resistance at the other side of the channel (France, Belgium, Netherlands). Yeah, that's what happens when you can 'dial' a frequency. Nowadays with all the sattelites, WiFi, tethering and the multi-million dollar failed attempts of 'censorship' by RIAA / MPAA I think it's even harder. Even Google has a hard time censoring Youtube, while the servers are their own. You only have to look at Iran or Turkey to see internet really makes a difference in politics and spreading news. Probably China is looking at Iran and Turkey to, and that's exactly why they are afraid. At the other hand, Kim Jong Il is going to visit China by train again (if my sources are correct), and I'm pretty glad China isn't following that example either. Also funny to mention are those 'corporate website-blockers' to make sure people work and don't browse the net: There are always sites they forgot to blacklist, and sometimes there are ways around also. I think the same goes for the Chinese government: Now matter how thick their aluminium wall is, if a vacuum is at the other side of the wall - air will move _through_ aluminium I was told two days ago. Pretty stunning. |
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