Thanks Carla
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| montezuma Dec 19, 2009 12:30 PM EDT |
For all your columns, books and sane Lxer comments. Very much appreciated by this FOSS user. For chrissakes don't buy a Mac. ;-) |
| gus3 Dec 19, 2009 1:16 PM EDT |
Quoting:For all your columns, books and sane Lxer comments.And even some of your insane LXer comments... |
| hkwint Dec 19, 2009 1:21 PM EDT |
I think Carla is fed up with computers, linux and LXer and buying a Mac in the i-store right now. But thanks anyway! |
| caitlyn Dec 20, 2009 5:02 PM EDT |
Carla is my hero. She got me started on Linux blogging for O'Reilly. Since then I've actually managed to get paid for writing about Linux on some other sites :) Also, no matter how hard I get flamed for what I write I can always find some article Carla wrote where she is absolutely pilloried by clueless readers. Then I know that it's not just me :) |
| theBeez Dec 20, 2009 6:14 PM EDT |
I just wrote Carla how surprised I was how women on "Geek Feminism" could GET any negative feedback with their commenting policy.. Which BTW boils down to anything remotely unsupportive gets deleted on sight. Guess what.. It got deleted! |
| caitlyn Dec 20, 2009 6:46 PM EDT |
Yeah, well.. Hans, as I said on my blog, issue advocacy websites are under no obligation to post contrary views. I can certainly understand why they wouldn't want to include posts from someone who insists that sexism in IT doesn't exist despite all evidence to the contrary. |
| theBeez Dec 21, 2009 3:14 AM EDT |
@Caitlyn, First, if you are referring to the article I think you're referring to: that's not what you said. You said there may be good reasons to limit free speech. When I asked you about your rules, you were unable to list them. Second, I never said there was no sexism in FOSS. I can clearly remember writing: "Nobody denies that sexism in FOSS exists. If not, Carla Schroder wouldn't be able to list a set of incidents. The problem I have with this statement is, that now it seems to be exclusively a FOSS problem." and "it is claimed to be the most important reason that there are very few women who participate in FOSS." Which I both do not support. Tsk, tsk.. when will you properly research statements before you publish them.. Third, Kirrily Robert wrote on December 6 2009: "Interesting to see the various discussions on meritocracy that are popping up since my post." It's very hard to discuss things when you don't allow discussion - as is so blatantly stated on her site. Or can you please explain me how you can discuss things without allowing opposing views? |
| caitlyn Dec 21, 2009 10:14 AM EDT |
An advocacy site or blog is not a debating site. I have no problem and indeed support the idea of feminist space such as Geek Feminism. Nobody is stopping you from having a discussion or debate or diatribe elsewhere. The owners of websites or blogs are not and have never been obliged to provide opposing opinions. As far as limiting free speech, my article very clearly stated that limitations on blogs or websites or other private venues are NOT limitations on free speech. Yes, I also covered good reasons to limit speech (i.e.:, not falsely shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater, which can lead to injury or death) by governments. The main point of that article was that free speech protections do not include the right to demand what someone will include in their publication, be it a television network, a radio station, a newspaper, a website or a blog. Indeed, demanding to be published in effect limits the ability to have issue advocacy and would impair free speech rather than grant greater rights. Finally, yes, sexism and exclusivity does represent the main barrier to women in FOSS. I see it's time for me to write about it again. I promise you won't like what I have to say about it. The comments section of LXer.com is not the appropriate place for it. |
| theBeez Dec 21, 2009 12:57 PM EDT |
@Caitlyn
Sure, you're right: no site has the obligation to provide place for debate. Simply don't allow any comments. But you can't have it both ways. You can't be proud you're firing up the debate without allowing the possibility for the debate itself. Worse, it's all about fooling yourself, thinking the whole world agrees with you. In essence, what are they afraid of? I'm not afraid. You can comment all you like on my site within the boundaries I've stated. If you want to make a fool of me, be my guest. And I certainly do not have the need to be "hugged" or "liked". I prefer that IRL. ;-) As far as your article is concerned, I've had plenty of time to prepare. I just didn't want to fire up the issue again. But if you want it that way, be sure you got your numbers right or prepare for some heavy pounding. |
| tuxchick Dec 21, 2009 1:49 PM EDT |
Beez, you're not into discussion or debate, but only pounding people over the head with many words, and going all out to "prove" them wrong. You don't listen and you make it personal. I don't publish non-responsive trolling or petty hatchet-grinding on LT, and I applaud the gang at Geek Feminism Blog and any site that doesn't let the conversation get hijacked. You may have read "Animal Farm"-- specifically the parts about "Four legs GOOD, two legs BAD." Carla Schroder |
| theBeez Dec 21, 2009 1:52 PM EDT |
Does that mean that the proper possession of male genitals dequalifies me someway? Girl, in what century were you born! |
| tuxchick Dec 21, 2009 1:53 PM EDT |
LOL, no beez, it means the more you talk the more you prove my point :) |
| jdixon Dec 21, 2009 1:56 PM EDT |
> Finally, yes, sexism and exclusivity does represent the main barrier to women in FOSS. I don't think that's true, caitlyn. Since women are still underrepresented in the technical fields overall, and the FOSS world is a small niche of the overall tech world, I'd say there's still a significant lack of qualified women. I'd only rate sexism as a secondary barrier, not the main one. |
| bigg Dec 21, 2009 2:10 PM EDT |
What part of the article discusses sexism? Did I miss something? Maybe there's a link to the wrong article? All I read had to do with thanking FOSS contributors. |
| tuxchick Dec 21, 2009 2:13 PM EDT |
True bigg, and I forgot to say: Thanks all you fine LXerers who say such nice things! No, don't worry, I'm not buying a Mac. My first ever PC was a Mac, and I've supported them on and off over the years, and they are nice and usually work well. But they still feel like handcuffs. Gimme that ole software freedom, and please some more hardware freedom too. |
| caitlyn Dec 21, 2009 2:24 PM EDT |
@theBeez: I can't have it both ways? LOL! It's my blog and I can have it any way I want. That's the point you don't seem to get. Oh, and I agree with Carla's assessment of your comments. @jdixon: Bruce Byfield wrote an excellent article a couple of months back that pointed out the huge discrepancy between women in proprietary development (28%) and the tiny percentage of women in FOSS development. When you take that difference into account no other explanation makes sense. |
| jdixon Dec 21, 2009 2:52 PM EDT |
> When you take that difference into account no other explanation makes sense. FOSS development is a backwater compared to proprietary development. There is no guarantee of an income from it, and it's only minimally supported (as in paying jobs) by most of the major firms (The fact that it's been so successful at competing with proprietary development is a tribute to both the people doing the coding and the process itself). It's to be expected that it would lag proprietary development in attracting the attention of qualified women coders. I'm not arguing that sexism doesn't exist and that it's not a barrier. I'm merely arguing that the larger barrier is still a comparative lack of qualified women coders with an interest in FOSS. Without eliminating that barrier, removing the sexism barrier won't resolve the matter. Which doesn't mean that we shouldn't work to remove the sexism barrier. It's just best to have no illusions as to how effective that will be at increasing the role of women in FOSS. |
| caitlyn Dec 21, 2009 4:19 PM EDT |
@jdixon: Read the Byfield article or my upcoming article and get back to me on that :) |
| tracyanne Dec 21, 2009 4:42 PM EDT |
Quoting:huge discrepancy between women in proprietary development (28%) and the tiny percentage of women in FOSS development. . When you take that difference into account no other explanation makes sense. Women probably prefer to get paid for their work, like you know so they can pay the bills and eat, I know I do. Anyone ever considered that. For me that trumps everything. As an explanation that makes sense to me, so I think it's not true to say no other explanation makes sense. |
| tuxchick Dec 21, 2009 5:00 PM EDT |
Is it really necessary to buy into the beez' off-topic trolling, and turn what started out as a nice on-topic thread into yet another unproductive off-topic re-hash? Say, how about all those great FOSS contributors, anyway? Hugs, thanks, whatever, they deserve better than this. |
| jdixon Dec 21, 2009 5:21 PM EDT |
> ...Read the Byfield article I'm pretty sure I read it at the time. > Women probably prefer to get paid for their work... Exactly. For many contributors, and most of those starting out, FOSS is not an income producing activity. Once you've established yourself it can be, but usually not before. Which means unless it's a company paid position, most young coders aren't going to be interested. |
| theBeez Dec 21, 2009 5:28 PM EDT |
@Caitlyn
As a matter of fact, there are several factors that influence that number, and those factors and explanations are clearly supported by the FLOSS reports. First, the way FOSS is developed and the usual "Software engineering" method require different skills. Some of these skills attract more women. FOSS on the other hand (again, according to the FOSS polls) is strictly bound to coding - mainly and in a very early stadium. Second, most main FOSS developers devote a very large part of their time to it. Something that seems to be required to lead and drive a FOSS project. Most women (again: FOSS polls) do or don't want to devote such a large part of their free time to FOSS. Consequently, they do not lead nor acquire an important part in FOSS development. And that's only part of the story. Of all the reasons FOSS reports list for women not being a large part of the FOSS community, sexism is listed only a few times - even when counting gratiously. Try calling me clueless again. @Carla You know who the pigs killed off in the end? It was the poor horse, who did all the work. |
| dinotrac Dec 21, 2009 6:06 PM EDT |
but, but, but beez ----- Last I looked at, say, the kernel contributors list -- There were lots and lots and lots and lots of names (including a couple of my friends). You know what? Linus spends a LOT of time. Little Teddy Ts'o, Jeremy Allison, Carsten Haitzler, those folks and others - they spend a LOT of time. But, y'know, guys like my friend Mike, who is on that list, he doesn't. Oh, he doesn't shortchange the stuff he works on in the least, but there is the matter of the full-time job and family and time spent actually enjoying the fruits of his labor. I know that there are more guys like Mike than like Carsten. Not only that, I know a chick (duck and cover) or two who put in quite a bit of skill and effort, not to mention coding skill. You seem to be blowing a big old pile of self-serving smoke. |
| theBeez Dec 21, 2009 7:19 PM EDT |
@dinotrac (a) Exemplary evidence is no evidence at all. (b) You want to question the wisdom of the FOSS polls? Is that what I hear? |
| dinotrac Dec 21, 2009 7:31 PM EDT |
You hear nothing of the sort. a) exemplary evidence absolutely is evidence. But who's talking about exemplary evidence? I make mention of my friend Mike, but are you going do deny that there is a public list of kernel contributors? Are you going to deny that other projects publish similar lists? Are you going to claim that everybody on those lists puts in an equal effort, that each one is equally devoted? If so, there is no need to continue. On the bright side, everybody will know what to think of your opinion. b) as to polls... If there was one good thing to come from my first marriage, it's that I know a thing or two about survey methods. Living with a phsychological metrics Phd will do that kind of thing for you. A few questions: 1. Who conducted these polls? 2. How were participants selected? 3. How were results adjusted for those who declined to participate? etc. I will take a good example over a self-selected internet poll any day of the week. H*ll, I'd take a Ouija board over a self-selected internet poll. I suspect that any reasonably knowledgeable survey type would agree. |
| gus3 Dec 21, 2009 7:46 PM EDT |
Beez is a griefer. |
| theBeez Dec 22, 2009 2:53 AM EDT |
@dinotrac
Have a look for yourself. Note I'm not the one who started referring to this document. Even now, Caitlyn quoted straight out of this survey. In fact, it's the only "evidence" they have. Attacking it will only make me happy, because I won't have to do that myself and consequently make my case stronger. http://flosspols.org/deliverables/FLOSSPOLS-D16-Gender_Integ... And don't come up with academic titles. I don't, because I feel I don't have to and frankly, I'm not impressed. BTW, do you deny that marigolds are yellow? |
| dinotrac Dec 22, 2009 7:16 AM EDT |
beez - Sharpen them readin' eyes, sonny. The only reference I made to academic titles was to my first wife, used as texture, not authority. Texture makes the world go 'round, but only when you can appreciate the feel. As to the study, it's more interesting than you let on. First and foremost, it is built upon those examples you dislike! Yes, the primary approach is "ethnographic", a fancy way of saying they sat around and watched a bunch of people do what they do, and talking to some of them at length. Not a bad way to go, actually. They didn't say much about their poll, other than it was online. Makes it sound non-random. If that's the case, it's a big problem. The problem with online polls is not that they contain no information. Assuming a perfect world, with nobody taking it on a lark, twice, etc, an online poll could be chock full of information about the people who took it. Unfortunately, its non-random nature leaves you unable to apply that information to the population as a whole. For example, it might be that only misogynists like to fill out surveys. In that case, you'd have a nice picture of what misogynists think, and know nothing about the community at large. Not sure what to think of these guys. In literally the same sentence, they bemoan their lack of psychological expertise, then venture that one source of apparent sexism in the FLOSS community is the disproportionate presence of autism among its members. Hmmm. Also, the surveyors were English, and their attention focused on Europe, which appears to be backwards and barbaric with regard to civil rights. I cannot imagine, for example, an American researcher writing the following sentence: Our recommendations are proposed on the principle that policy should explicitly aim to work with the community’s values and social dynamics rather than impose its own. Makes me imagine a policy discussion taking place 50 years ago in the US along the lines of, "Well, them old boys value their violence and their bigotry, but they also show up in church on Sundays. So, let's work within their values. Instead of an all-out assault on lynching, we make it our goal to eliminate Sunday lynchings." And that doesn't even get to the "seeing time as their own" bit, with the apparent understanding the European men would not dare to help with housework. And, in spite of that, Their first finding was this: Women are actively (if unconsciously) excluded rather than passively disinterested. The effect lies within F/LOSS cultural and social arrangements. Hmmmmm. |
| tracyanne Dec 22, 2009 7:26 AM EDT |
Personally, I think that finding is a load of old cobblers. |
| dinotrac Dec 22, 2009 7:37 AM EDT |
ta - Don't know. Whether or not their research is sufficient to support the finding, it seems utterly plausible to me. |
| tracyanne Dec 22, 2009 8:22 AM EDT |
I think most women give up in frustration, which is precisely the reason I don't write FOSS code, it's incredibly frustrating trying to work out what any arbitrary piece of code is supposed to do.Or how any arbitrary development toolset is supposed to work. I can work with C#, VB, and even when I was coding COBOL, everything I needed was there, with well documented tools, that did not and do not require arcane knowledge to use. I can't even work out how to use most of the Free Software tools that are available to me. You may or may not remember me talking about trying to learn how to use Eclipse, I still don't even know where to start with Eclipse, KDevelop is just as bad. There's a tool that is supposed to make it possible to write GUIs for Linux command line applicaations Kommander, I can't even get stuff to work with that. Yet I can sit down with Visual Studio and I can churn out complex code for large database driven Web applications like http://www.ptonthenet.com, without even breaking a sweat. I can't even use FOSS tools. I think that is what drives most women away from FOSS development, the tools require arcane knowledge, there is inadequate documentation, and the code is also poorly documented. If you are't in know you are never in the know. Just doing something really simple often requires huge indepth knowledge. |
| dinotrac Dec 22, 2009 8:29 AM EDT |
ta -- But that is gender-neutral frustration. It drives me up a wall, too. Including Eclipse, which I have made work, sort of. However, might that not be a symptom of an underlying "boys and their toys" problem? You create the fraternity, develop the secret handshake, and those you want left out don't come in. |
| tracyanne Dec 22, 2009 8:45 AM EDT |
That's right it's gender neutral frustration, I don't have time to put the effort into learning it properly, and i think most other women don't either, I have a life, such as it is, and think they do too. I think more blokes, by a large margin, are prepared to invest that much effort. That I think is your unconscious sexism in FOSS.Quoting:However, might that not be a symptom of an underlying "boys and their toys" problem? You create the fraternity, develop the secret handshake, and those you want left out don't come in. If that's the problem, then the kinder gentler, more Politically correct, lets not swear and scratch our testicles in front of the girls FOSS that Bruce Byfield rabbits on about, isn't going to make one bit of difference. |
| montezuma Dec 22, 2009 9:13 AM EDT |
TA, One thing thing that would make a helluva difference is some decent documentation (see assorted rants in other threads). The culture that says documentation writing is for sissies and real men can hack around and work out the answer after many hours of unneccessary tooling around is an unfriendly, unproductive and macho culture. |
| bigg Dec 22, 2009 9:54 AM EDT |
It's not a matter of it being somehow "bad" to write documentation. It's that writing high quality documentation is a lot of work for which few developers have an interest or training. Compounding the problem is the difficulty of finding the documentation when you need it. We still don't have a good model for putting individual contributions together into a single manual that can be downloaded with the source. That said, there are a lot of well-written books out there. And the more books we buy, the greater the incentive there is to write more well-written books. There are also examples of GNU (apologies to RMS haters) projects with excellent documentation. The GNU Scientific Library and Octave, for instance, have excellent documentation. |
| jdixon Dec 22, 2009 10:41 AM EDT |
> ...there are a lot of well-written books out there. Yes. In fact, the subject of this thread has a few good ones. |
| jdixon Dec 22, 2009 10:45 AM EDT |
> ...isn't going to make one bit of difference. As with caitlyn, I think that's overstating the case, tracyanne. There is no doubt that the overt sexism sometimes (not always, and not by the majority) seen in FOSS drives some women away. It not being there would make a difference, I just don't think it's would make as much difference as some others seem to think. As with most things in this world, there are multiple reasons for things being the way they are. |
| caitlyn Dec 22, 2009 11:03 AM EDT |
Even though it's argument by example and someone has already dismissed examples let me give two from my career, one positive and one negative, which are not from the FOSS world (or at least not exclusively from the FOSS world) which, I think, paint a picture of how women can be included and encouraged or excluded. In 2000-2001 I worked for Lockheed-Martin which was (and I believe still is) an exemplary company when it comes to diversity. Management clearly judged people based on their skills, experience and what was between their ears, not so much on intangibles like how someone would "fit in" to the team. The net result, with ~40 systems administrators in the group I worked for (both *nix and Windows) was racial and ethnic diversity like I've never seen in IT before or since. The gender mix was roughly 60/40 male and female. It was also a place where people weren't afraid to talk to one another, to bounce ideas off one another, to brainstorm and to collaborate. I have never worked on a team where there was so much mutual respect and where people got along so well. Shortly prior to that I worked as a contractor for a certain blue company that, on paper, has equally good policies. It was my fourth contract for them. In this case the team lead was a good ol' boy who wasn't terribly happy about women on his team, and when I started there two had just been hired by the manager (one was me). He was demoted because of complaints about his leadership which happened before I even got there. Still, he really didn't want to share or work with women in a very obvious way and if he was project lead the women on the team would only get whatever he wanted no part of. Maybe 14 months and one management change later he was promoted again. The excuse was that he was the only real employee left on the team. The rest of us were contractors. Every woman on the team gave notice within two weeks. All of us. He was just that bad. My point (and yes, I have one) is how you treat people greatly impacts the results. There are a lot of FOSS projects that really are good ol' boys clubs. As far as earning a living is concerned, most major FOSS coding nowadays is paid for by corporate interests. I've worked for a FOSS company (and a good one at that) but was still the only woman in my group. The argument that women aren't interested because of the hours (which are difficult in any IT job) or the lack of pay doesn't hold water. An economic downturn makes matters worse. The old saw about "birds of a feather" is a real reflection of human nature. When talent is in short supply what's between the ears matters more than anything else. When there is plenty of talent going begging all sorts of different selection criteria are used to come to a choice. This severely disadvantages women, minorities, and in IT in particular, older workers. I say this as someone who did just recently land full time (if contract) employment in a difficult market and who may have a real prospect of this position turning into something "permanent" even though I am obviously both female and older. The barriers are not absolute and don't exist everywhere. However, during the 1990s when IT and the economy was booming the percentage of women and minorities in IT grew steadily. During this decade there has been a recorded and fairly sharp decline in the number of women and minorities in tech and I believe entrenched attitudes, both conscious and unconscious, guarantee that tech remains a predominantly white, male bastion here in the U.S. I should also add that IT in the U.S. has never recovered from three things: the dot com bubble bursting, 9/11, and steady outsourcing to less expensive markets. For tech professionals the economic downturn is nearly a decade old. It just got markedly worse in the past 15 months. What Bruce Byfield pointed out that with all of these factors, which affect both FOSS and proprietary software pretty much equally, women, while in software development far less than their male counterparts overall, are far better represented in proprietary software development. The factors that many of you cite as reasons why women wouldn't want positions in development work does explain *part* of the reason that more than 7 in 10 developers are men. The barriers to women and minorities, which are real, also impact both proprietary and FOSS software. The discrepancy between the two is, in large part, still based on the attitudes of the FOSS community which are neither inclusive or welcoming. Going back to the certain big blue company office where I worked: when it was made clear that women were unwelcome we found elsewhere to go. The situation in FOSS development is analogous. Where women do succeed in FOSS is in companies and/or projects where the barriers have been consciously eliminated by leadership/management and where exclusionary attitudes just aren't accepted. Oh good grief... polish this a little, add links to source information, quote some real data and I pretty much have my article, don't I? |
| theBeez Dec 22, 2009 12:31 PM EDT |
"The discrepancy between the two is, in large part, still based on the attitudes of the FOSS community which are neither inclusive or welcoming."
Unsubstantiated. Exemplary evidence. Conjecture. I like opinions, everybody has got one. But - concluding from the posts here - I guess the FOSS polls are out of the window? Good! That'll make Carla and Bruce happy. |
| dinotrac Dec 22, 2009 12:33 PM EDT |
Beez - Out the window is too strong. Better to say that their trustworthiness has not been sufficiently established. |
| caitlyn Dec 22, 2009 1:15 PM EDT |
My opinion is based not only on my personal experience but it is from reading the horror stories told by women who belong to the geek/FOSS women's groups you disdain such as LinuxChix. Either a whole lot of the women in FOSS are pathological liars or what you dismiss as exemplary or opinions is reality. Your out of hand dismissal is an excellent example of part of the problem. |
| dinotrac Dec 22, 2009 1:28 PM EDT |
caitlyn - Yes. Don't know where this notion that examples don't constitute evidence came from. It's not remotely true. It IS true that anecdotal evidence isn't sufficient for some things, and that your individual experience doesn't say much about other peoples' experience in other companies or on different projects, but... There's evidence and there's evidence. Evidence in a court room, for example, must pass a series of reliability hurdles, but they are not the same as those for drug efficacy testing. There's a reason for that...some things are easier to see than others, and some things are easier to get wrong than others. |
| montezuma Dec 22, 2009 1:32 PM EDT |
Yes exactly caitlyn. Disrespectful and aggressive dismissal of a well thought out and measured position in a few words certainly conveys a strong message to me. |
| gus3 Dec 22, 2009 2:18 PM EDT |
Quoting:Don't know where this notion that examples don't constitute evidence came from.Well... To assert that so-and-so shoplifted a pack of gum two days ago, and offer the example that so-and-so was convicted of shoplifting three years ago, doesn't work. OTOH, a negative assertion can be disproven with a single counter-example. The history of mathematics is replete with such. |
| dinotrac Dec 22, 2009 2:22 PM EDT |
OTOH -- To assert that so and so shoplifted a pack of gum two days ago and offer that as evidence that so and so may not be trustworthy does work. The evidence you need depends on what you are trying to prove, and how rigorous your proof needs to be for the purpose at hand. |
| gus3 Dec 22, 2009 4:26 PM EDT |
Quoting:To assert that so and so shoplifted a pack of gum two days ago and offer that as evidence that so and so may not be trustworthy does work.Not in my court, not without giving the accused a chance to explain. Ever been threatened by a bully? I believe the US legal term is "under duress." |
| dinotrac Dec 22, 2009 4:29 PM EDT |
gus3 - Don't conflate evidence and conclusion, and don't forget that you can prove a point with one really strong piece of evidence or a lot of smaller pieces that, when assembled, make the conclusion inescapable to a reasonable mind. |
| gus3 Dec 22, 2009 4:43 PM EDT |
dino - If I'm reading this correctly, we agree that the assertion is evidence (actually, testimony), but we kind of disagree on the path to the conclusion. |
| dinotrac Dec 22, 2009 5:12 PM EDT |
Gus3 - To know that, we would need to know the specifics of the situation. |
| gus3 Dec 22, 2009 5:16 PM EDT |
Which is what I said in my "under duress" comment. Okay, we're on the same page, good enough for me. |
| tracyanne Dec 22, 2009 5:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:As with caitlyn, I think that's overstating the case, tracyanne. Yes JD I am overstating the case. I'm overstating it because I disagree that the the alleged culprit has as much to do with the problem as is asserted, The alleged culprit exists, as caitlyn rightly points out, in all walks of life. The real problem, I believe is that FOSS is elitist, it is allegedly a meritocracy, the best get to the top. The problem is most people don't want to work that hard, they just want to get things tht work done, they either don't have the time or the inclination to sift through the code to work out how things work. For every Linus Torvolds or Richard Stallman or whichever boy genius you look up to there are 100.. a 1000 tracyannes, we're not brilliant, but given the right tools we can turn pretty solid code that gets the job done. As Con Kolivas points out, he has a life, it doesn't revolve around code (and he's one of the people I think are brilliant) so what goes for him goes double for the less brilliant of us. With Proprietary software, you might not have access to the code, but it does come with well documented APIs and toolsets that are easy to get working with, that don't take a PHD to work out how they work. Yes eventually you reach the limits of what they allow you to do with the stuff, but in the meantime you can get some actual work done, you don't have to prove how 733t you are. And at the end of the day you ca ngo home and forget about it. Yes people do get paid to work in FOSS these days, but the majority don't. I personally would love to contribute to some projects, or even start a small project or two myself. But I can't get the bl**dy tools to work, and the APIs are either badly documented or just obscure. I'd do some stuff with GTK+ and C# except I can't work out how to make GTK widgets work with my code - once again bad or obscure documentation. Windows forms might be cr*p, they are actually, but at least they are well documented and accessible, so it's easy to write GUI applications that work. Ask yourself how many other people, man and women, have simply given up because of the elitist and yes unwelcoming attitudes of FOSS. FOSS might be all about the code, but because of that attitude there are like very large numbers of potential contributors that don't, Women, I think are less likely to be impressed by that attitude than men. |
| theBeez Dec 23, 2009 3:25 AM EDT |
@tracyanne
Bruce recently published an article on the abysmal quality of some (most?) FOSS projects and I wholeheartedly agreed with him (check out the comments). Again, shouting on the sideline doesn't change too much. Some of you may know I have a particular fancy for Forth and most Forths are very 1337. So I wrote a primer for it that has consequently been distributed with several Forths and inspired a brand new primer by another vendor. For my project I need a few cross compilers and I came around a very good one which was poorly documented. I wrote an article about it and afterwards (in collaboration with the author) I made it into a small tutorial. Simply crying "fire!" and expecting somebody else will change won't change a lot in the whole scheme of things. Taking action does, even if it is hard. Crying "fire" and giving only a whole bunch of excuses why you shouldn't do anything is something that irritates me very much. Giving up after trying very hard is better, changing the things you want to change is best. I'm not seeking praise, I just try to do small things for those causes I find important and I expect the same of all those who are part of the community or claim to be sympathetic. FOSS will only live as long things get DONE, not because some blogs are written. So, before one writes a blog, he/she should ask him/herself the question "What have I done for FOSS today or the problem I want to get solved". Simply stop blaming the horses. While rereading this entry I think I might give the impression it is addressed to you in particular, tracyanne, but believe me, that is not the case. |
| Alcibiades Dec 23, 2009 3:43 AM EDT |
FOSS attracts the socially awkward and technically gifted. It offers an outlet, a way of achieving something, of getting peer recognition. But it has a price, it mostly doesn't pay and if it offers personal benefits, they are not direct in terms of career, they have to do with acquiring skills that you can use in your paid career. Its clear that this environment is selecting for people with this combination. If they are not technically gifted, they don't get started. If they are socially well adjusted and well rounded, then they don't want to be there, they can get better returns, both social and financial, from their skills. Not always, but very often. This is a combination that is far more common in men than women. Its also one that the average woman finds difficult to work with. Social awkwardness, bordering on autism in many cases, is also something that makes it very difficult for these guys to relate to women, whether in a work or social environment. It does lead to fraught situations, this. Its not good. I don't know what the answer is, but suspect it may only be improveable at the margins. It may be that women in FOSS really do need their own groupings, that in this particular area, we are not going to get diversity in the same way we do in commercial software development. There just are not that many obsessive women who want to do this stuff for little financial reward. Certainly, to be talented and in that category, is a gift that comes with a very high price tag. I don't think that kommander is a gender thing. I can't make head or tail of it either. Probably it will be great when it finally gets wherever its going. And what a relief to read that someone else cannot relate to Eclipse. Don't feel like such a failure any more! |
| dinotrac Dec 23, 2009 9:08 AM EDT |
>This is a combination that is far more common in men than women. Is it? I'm not convinced that's true. I do believe that we still carry some residue of societal history that has not pushed girls in the direction of certain technical disciplines, but, Let's see... Discovery of radium -- woman First compiler -- woman First nuclear fission -- conceived by a woman, idea taken by male colleague who doesn't share credit and goes on to win a Nobel prize Experimental discovery of DNA structure? -- oops, another woman, but men went on to complete the work and win a Nobel prize (without crediting her) while she died of cancer. And, just to ensure we don't get hung up in stereotypes, spread-spectrum communication -- not just woman, but Hedy Lamarr. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it, stereotype hounds. |
| gus3 Dec 23, 2009 9:52 AM EDT |
Quoting:shouting on the sideline doesn't change too much.Depends on who's doing the shouting. And it depends on how many. Griefer. |
| hkwint Dec 23, 2009 10:50 AM EDT |
Interesting read: "we found that women were less interested in working in [software -]companies that contained objects stereotypically associated with CS (e.g., Star Trek poster, video games) compared to identical companies that had non-stereotypical objects (e.g., nature poster, general interest books)." http://faculty.washington.edu/scheryan/research.htm Conclusion is debatable (to be summarized in: "Beards attract more beards"), but study is interesting at least. What's also interesting, is that the percentage of women playing WoW (16%) is bigger than the percentage of women among FOSS contributors, showing it's not all about Sci-Fi (Sheryan 'partly blames Star Trek'). Other than that, this discussion went into a political argument some months ago. And like most political arguments taking place on LXer I think it will only entrench people even further in their opinions. So I'll be glad to just watch and not participate this time. Maybe Mr. Bezemer (being a teacher in Venlo IIRC) can shed some light on the decoration of 'software engineering' classrooms? |
| gus3 Dec 23, 2009 11:18 AM EDT |
Quoting:we found that women were less interested in working in [software -]companies that contained objects stereotypically associated with CS (e.g., Star Trek poster, video games)I wonder what those women's reaction would be to the hiring manager at my second full-time CS gig. She was an unapologetic Star Trek fan, and had a fully-lit model of the NCC-1701 hanging from her office ceiling. Besides, given the progressive views of Star Trek, B5, etc., I'd be surprised to find out that their associated subcultures had less of a "to all, their own" attitude. Edit: That study says more about the attitudes and (dare I say?) prejudices of the candidates, than it does about the actual workplace mind-set. |
| TxtEdMacs Dec 23, 2009 11:32 AM EDT |
dino, [serious] I am now one of your fans as the result of your last post in this thread. [/serious] But I still hate you in all the other venues. The only thing you left out was the invitation for him [or is it a her in disguise*] to Buzz Off. YBT * Just to confuse us and to think most other males are jerks. |
| Alcibiades Dec 23, 2009 11:56 AM EDT |
dino, its the combination that is rare, not the technical skill! Carla, for instance, is not a counter-example because although technically able, she appears to have a fatal lack of social disability! None of the women you cite were the classic nerd. There is no shortage of women with technical abilities. But what seems to be special about OSS development is the preponderance of people with both high social awkwardness and high technical skills and a certain goal orientation that amounts sometimes to obsessiveness. People like this do seem to be mostly male. And it does seem to be in the nature of the OSS ecosystem that it draws such people. We should be enormously grateful for what they produce of course, its not intended as denigration. I suspect that the financial and career opportunities that are offered by commercial development jobs, as well as the emphasis in increasing numbers of cases on social skills and being a good team member, result in a similar disproportionate representation of people with better social skills and also good technical abilities. And maybe a different sense of proportion about balancing life and code. |
| dinotrac Dec 23, 2009 11:57 AM EDT |
txt - For a serious moment -- I'm not a fan of finding discrimination where other explanations serve more ably, but I am the father of three daughters, not to mention the son of a young widow who had to make her way in the world when it, ahem, wasn't so enlightened as it is now. We still live in a world where some people don't believe that girls can like math (my middle daughter loves it, youngest is good at it but hates the building blocks (like memorizing times tables) that make follow-on work easier. I have to encourage the crap out of them and generally end up having at least one good "don't be afraid to push her -- she won't get in trouble for bringing home a B" conversation with math and science teachers each year. Kind of makes me think of my pre-IT career. I was an affirmative action/equal opportunity officer for a Fortune 500 company. Even well-meaning managers would fail to consider women for some positions because "there's a lot of travel and she has kids", or "part of that territory is a little rough". So many obstacles have been overcome -- attitudes remain the biggest hurdle. |
| caitlyn Dec 23, 2009 12:00 PM EDT |
Quoting:So many obstacles have been overcome -- attitudes remain the biggest hurdle. That is pretty much my entire argument in a nutshell. Indeed, some of the comments take gender stereotypes and treat them as facts. They aren't and that seems to be the crux of the issue. |
| dinotrac Dec 23, 2009 12:41 PM EDT |
caitlyn - They are facts of the "perception is reality" variety: self-fulfilling prophecies that start with a kernel of truth, extrapolate incorrectly, and reinforce the status quo. |
| theBeez Dec 23, 2009 2:09 PM EDT |
@hkwint
I wouldn't know about the decoration of Software Engineering classrooms, since my lectures involve mostly general project management and IT service management. However, I suspect the localities are not too different. May I add that the programming abilities of most students are abysmal, being unable to produce a simple CMDB in PHP with four or five students within four weeks? I did that in two days! Furthermore, people within the FOSS community have the privilege of addressing me by my first name, which is: Hans. ;-) |
| caitlyn Dec 23, 2009 5:14 PM EDT |
Quoting:And even some of your insane LXer comments... Her insane comments are the best ones :) |
| hkwint Dec 24, 2009 5:52 AM EDT |
Quoting:Furthermore, people within the FOSS community have the privilege of addressing me by my first name, which is: Hans. I know, but there's a reason: You probably wouldn't believe, but at the department of 14 persons where I work now, I was the 3th Hans to join, and two other persons called Hans were working in the factory next to our office. Then our department moved to Rotterdam, where in the room next to me another Hans was already working, so now there's four of us. So I know from experience if you're not the only 'Hans' things can get pretty confusing. A friend of mine is studying software engineering at Fontys in Venlo and also an amateur PHP-programmer before he started, I'll ask him about the time he needs to write a CMDB. Not being in an IT-related job / not having IT-education myself I don't have an idea what such a thing is - yet, but I'm going to find out! |
| theBeez Dec 24, 2009 7:32 AM EDT |
@hkwint
A CMDB is a Configuration Management Database. When well done (which seldom happens) it is a strange beast. In essense you can definine entities (CITypes) with their own attributes which have named relations (e.g. "Is part of" - "consists of") with other CITypes. Reason for that is that (a) not every company works the same way (b) companies change, so also their information needs. If you would try to do so with a regular design you would go mad changing your application and converting your data all the time. The design I made about ten years ago is used holding a vast amount of technical infrastructure information for a large financial institution in the Netherlands and has also been used to create a CMDB for a large government agency in the Netherlands. It consists of a dozen tables, so it's quite simple. Something a good student should be able to do in a reasonable amount of time IMHO. If you want more info, contact me. |
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