Even with these discounts...
|
| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| caitlyn Nov 30, 2009 3:06 PM EDT |
Even with these discounts System76 just can't compete on price. A Compaq netbook, nicely equipped, at Best Buy is $180 right now. Yes, it comes with Windows XP so you're artificially propping up Microsoft sales figures if you buy it, wipe it, and load Linux. The >$100 price difference is hard to swallow, though. Office Depot and Wal Mart are offering a very decent eMachines full sized laptop for $199. Yeah, it's great to support the Linux specialty shops. I'm all for it. In this economy most people just won't do it if the shops don't have competitively priced systems. |
| bigg Nov 30, 2009 3:30 PM EDT |
I wonder about quality and support. My experience suggests that dirt-cheap laptops are a piece of junk, and you can forget about any kind of support. System76 probably isn't competing with the very bottom end of the market. |
| caitlyn Nov 30, 2009 3:33 PM EDT |
@bigg: The netbook is a Compaq branded version of the same HP I have. It's a nice machine that normally sells for >$300. It compares favorably with the System76 offering. I've also had good experience with eMachines (desktops, not laptops) in the past and the hardware is all very standard and runs well with Linux. eMachines has limited support (free phone support for 30 days) and the same one year hardware warranty as everyone else. I'm not saying System76 doesn't have superior customer support. Maybe they do. I don't know. I just doubt they can sell what are essentially no name machines for much more than what name brands sell for. |
| number6x Nov 30, 2009 3:47 PM EDT |
System 76 also maintains their own software repositories under the Ubuntu launchpad for drivers and other hardware specific needs. This is a great thing for people who plan to use their hardware full time under Linux. Dell and Zareason have similar repositories. I'm not sure about other pre-installed Linux vendors. |
| caitlyn Nov 30, 2009 4:26 PM EDT |
@number6: HP has similar repositories. The question comes down to this: is having those repositories worth a steep increase in price? |
| Sander_Marechal Nov 30, 2009 5:14 PM EDT |
Quoting:Yes, it comes with Windows XP so you're artificially propping up Microsoft sales figures if you buy it, wipe it, and load Windows. Yup. That's propping it up *twice* even :-P |
| HoTMetaL Nov 30, 2009 5:43 PM EDT |
@caitlyn: "Office Depot and Wal Mart are offering a very decent eMachines full sized laptop for $199." Okay, Caitlyn. Do tell where you're getting your information then. Walmart's lowest-priced full-sized notebook is actually a $368 eMachines, and Office Depot's lowest-priced full-sized notebook is a $450 HP. Add in the high cost of propping up Microsoft, and you don't have any sort of deal whatsoever. |
| caitlyn Nov 30, 2009 7:36 PM EDT |
@HoTMetaL: I just pulled the Wal Mart flyer and it was a black Friday special. Model was an eME627, 2GB RAM, 160GB hard drive, CD/DVD burner, 15.6" display. I found last year that the black Friday prices tend to get repeated later in the season. I saw the $198 laptop at the Wake Forest, NC store and my mom nearly purchased the one at Office Depot (same exact system) as a spare. I believe the store she was in is in Boca Ratoin, FL and it was Wednesday or Thursday of last week. IME black Friday prices to get repeated later in the season. So... yes, you do have a deal. I really strongly resent effectively being called a liar. @Sander: I'm getting that corrected as soon as I post this. |
| tuxchick Nov 30, 2009 7:46 PM EDT |
I don't think those are fair comparisons-- a $199 loss-leader from a giant company with deep pockets and zero support vs. a small independent with less clout, but far more cluefulness and customer support. Those $199 prices are not typical. I don't criticize anyone who takes advantage of them; me, I'd rather not support big companies who can use their clout to drive the little shops out of business, and no way do I buy a Windows license when I want Linux. I don't know about System76, I do know that ZaReason works closely with hardware manufacturers on specs, components, and design. They're not just buying the cheapest lots off the boat. A fair comparison goes beyond the price tag. |
| caitlyn Nov 30, 2009 7:54 PM EDT |
@tuxchick: I respect your choice. What percentage of the public, even the Linux community, is on a budget these days and will shop primarily based on price? That's my point. I'm not criticizing System76 or ZaReason or anyone else. I just wonder if they can survive. |
| caitlyn Nov 30, 2009 8:00 PM EDT |
Here is the netbook deal at BestBuy (online only today): [url=http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Compaq - Mini Netbook with Intel® Atom™ Processor/9576951.p?id=1218127629647&skuId=9576951]http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Compaq - Mini Netbook with Intel...[/url] This system was sold by HP with Linux preloaded for $120 more. |
| HoTMetaL Nov 30, 2009 8:58 PM EDT |
@caitlyn: "Office Depot and Wal Mart are offering a very decent eMachines full sized laptop for $199." No, Caitlyn, they're not offering this. They offered one during a single morning of a single year, usually only to people who are brave, crazy or desperate enough to stand in long lines with numbered tickets, with each store actually selling only a relative few at that price. We all know how "Black Friday" works. Tuxchick is right on some points: These prices aren't typical and are very hard to find. Buying a machine from a Linux vendor certainly has its advantages in the long run, as my experience with a Zareason notebook has proven. I see your broader point, though: some people will buy based solely on a product's price a not give a rat's about the support or quality of the product. |
| azerthoth Nov 30, 2009 9:06 PM EDT |
Your equivocating hotmetal, they were offered (past tense of offering). Get over it. |
| jdixon Nov 30, 2009 9:12 PM EDT |
> No, Caitlyn, they're not offering this. They offered one during a single morning of a single year, usually only to people who are brave, crazy or desperate enough to stand in long lines with numbered tickets, with each store actually selling only a relative few at that price. We all know how "Black Friday" works. Sigh. You can fudge the figures however you want, but the simple fact is that System76 is not price competitive. Neither is ZaReason, though they're a bit better. So, real world example time from current web pages: Dell Mini 10v - $279. http://www.dell.com/us/en/home/notebooks/laptop-inspiron-10/... System76 Starling netbook - $359. http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=92 ZaReason Terra A20 - $349. http://www.zareason.com/shop/product.php?productid=16216&cat... |
| HoTMetaL Nov 30, 2009 9:26 PM EDT |
@jdixson: Fudge. You can sigh all you want, but the simple fact is that System76 and Zareason cannot be price competitive when they don't push overpriced baby formula, malt liquor and NASCAR memorabilia to make up for under-cutting a few cheap laptops. And, the figures you're posting are for netbooks. My numbers came directly from the respective vendors' web sites for the cost of notebooks. There's a difference. One is a cute toy and the other gets work done. |
| bigg Nov 30, 2009 9:30 PM EDT |
I don't see any way it makes sense to compare with Black Friday specials. The local Best Buy had their $197 laptop. There were five for the entire store, and you had to be in line at 3:00 in the morning to get one. I can't talk for anyone else, but to me, the price of that $197 laptop is about $1000. |
| caitlyn Nov 30, 2009 9:44 PM EDT |
HoTMetaL: OK, I'm going to do something I almost never do. YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!!! There.. now I feel better. A netbook is not a toy. I do real work on mine and it is a very capable desktop replacement. Ask tracyanne about hers while you're at it. She'll say the same. Hence my frustration and shout above. People who claim netbooks are toys are clueless idiots who mostly have never tried a current model. The $179 price at BestBuy is available right now, online, no need to deal with Black Friday insanity. My mother almost bought the laptop two days before black Friday at Office Depot. No lines, no waiting, no muss, no fuss. All the B.S. about black Friday is just that. Oh, and how much do you want to bet that price will be repeated somewhere in the next 30-45 days. Quality? All the systems are made by a few Chinese and Taiwanese vendors. There is little or no difference anymore. Support? What support do they really offer. If I buy a system at Wal Mart and it fails they will exchange it for a month. After that I deal with the manufacturer and I get warranty service, just like anywhere else. Compare an HP or Dell laptop, not a netbook, with ZaReason or System76 and they are still NOT price competitive, period. I can even buy the Dell with Linux for a better price than the boutique shops. Dell doesn't sell malt liquor last time I checked. Even if they did it is totally irrelevant. I get that people want to support the boutiques. I really do. |
| jdixon Nov 30, 2009 9:48 PM EDT |
> There's a difference. One is a cute toy and the other gets work done. Yes, there is a difference. My Dell Mini 9 netbook running Linux is far more productive than my work laptop running Windows. I wouldn't go as far as to call a Dell Latitude D630 a cute toy though. But, since you insist: System76 Pangolin Performance (their cheapest laptop) - $719. http://system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&products_id=96 Dell Inspiron 15n - $585. http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=dncwzl... Their not identical, but the increased memory and processor power of the Dell pretty much make up for the NVidia graphics and bluetooth of the System76. |
| HoTMetaL Nov 30, 2009 9:56 PM EDT |
@caitlyn: "I'm going to do something I almost never do. YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!!!" Almost never do? Name-calling and labeling is almost all you ever do to forum participants with whom you disagree with. I think anyone who reads these forums regularly are quite used to your polarizing behavior by now. The "toy" reference was mostly a tongue-in-cheek humorous reference from someone who just believes that netbooks, while kinda "neat" at first, are a temporary tech fad that will last about as long as the Iomega Zip drive did. Of course, I might be wrong. Time will tell. |
| azerthoth Nov 30, 2009 10:04 PM EDT |
+1 Caitlyn |
| gus3 Nov 30, 2009 10:40 PM EDT |
+1 caitlyn here, too. tracyanne said the same thing just a few months ago. In her context, it was that a netbook is just as capable, albeit somewhat slower, and Microsoft only proved what a bloated piece of crap Windows is when they persuaded, nay forced the netbook makers to put crippled XP on their systems. |
| caitlyn Nov 30, 2009 10:59 PM EDT |
I believe Tracyanne's netbook has an Intel Atom N270 processor and 1 GB of RAM. Make it 2GB of RAM and an N280 processor and that performance will improve. I did the 2GB upgrade to mine (all of $32) and it does make a difference, especially on multimedia apps. |
| theboomboomcars Nov 30, 2009 11:35 PM EDT |
I have to say I am very sad about this. My grandma is looking for a computer for less than $200 and I haven't been able to find anything. Amazon doesn't seem to carry off brand linux netbooks any more and netbooks under $300 cannot be had. I got my hopes up when caitlyn said that you can order one from bestbuy for $180 so I go and check it out, and there are none available for shipping or for instore pickup in UT or San Antonio, TX. I would disagree that you can get a computer for less than $200 normally. |
| caitlyn Nov 30, 2009 11:49 PM EDT |
There have been sub $200 netbooks available on and off all year. I expect you'll find one again before Christmas. The Compaq was available for shipment earlier today. I'm sorry it's no longer the case. |
| theboomboomcars Nov 30, 2009 11:56 PM EDT |
That's my luck, I hear about a good deal but by the time I can check it out, it is gone. :( |
| techiem2 Dec 01, 2009 2:21 AM EDT |
Newegg had the nice little Acer Aspire 10.1" on sale for Black Friday for @$200 (we use that model at the college and from the little I've used them I quite like them, except for the fact they are running XP. :P).
I was hoping to get one to Linux up, but the site was so overloaded it took a while to get to the order process and they sold out before I could get an order in ... < 10 min after the sale started.... I've noticed the price comparison between Preinstalled Linux (I'm pretty much just check ZaReason though) and Preinstalled Windows tends to vary by machine and machine type. Sometimes they are fairly close, sometimes the Linux vendors are a bit high, sometimes they are a little lower. I noticed this was especially true when I was shopping for my notebook last year. When I got up into the nicer notebooks, there wasn't much difference in price between ZaReason and the major OEMs for similar spec'd machines. Except Apple of course, who's similar machine was about twice as much. :P Of course, we all know that one of the reasons OEMs are often lower is because of all the subsidizing of the costs from the 5000 companies that pay them to preinstall their stupid apps and trial apps and such.... I suspect they probably get better prices on components as well due to probably being able to order much larger quantities than most of the Linux only vendors... |
| mortenalver Dec 01, 2009 4:09 AM EDT |
Quoting:OK, I'm going to do something I almost never do. YOU ARE AN IDIOT!!!! Then I suggest you go back to not doing it. |
| jdixon Dec 01, 2009 10:02 AM EDT |
> My grandma is looking for a computer for less than $200 and I haven't been able to find anything I was going to suggest a Dell Vostro A90, which the last time I checked you could get for $209, but Dell seems to have dropped it. :( The best deal I could find with a quick check of the usual suspects is an Asus EEE from Best Buy for $250. It, of course, comes with Windows XP. [url=http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Asus - Eee PC Netbook with Intel® Atom™ Processor - Midnight Blue]http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Asus - Eee PC Netbook with Intel...[/url] |
| caitlyn Dec 01, 2009 11:24 AM EDT |
@jdixon: Yeah, I checked the link for the Vostro A90 yesterday because one guy I work with is in the market. It's discontinued. Pity. I only heard good things about it. Amazon.com still has the Gdium Liberty 1000 (900MHz Longsoon 2F 64-bit MIPS processor) for $279 preloaded with Mandriva. With the $40 price increase I think a Dell Mini 10V factory direct for $279 is probably the better deal unless you are specifically interested in the MIPS processor. (I am, but not $279 worth of interest.) They also have the Dreamnovia Dreambook for $149 but that's a SkyTone Alpha 400 clone with a 400MHz processor. @mortenlaver: I really needed to do it at that moment and some people seemed to appreciate it. |
| moopst Dec 01, 2009 1:12 PM EDT |
@jdixon: A friend is looking for a Linux laptop for his wife. I pointed him to System76 and he compared the Pangolin Performance to the Dell Inspiron 15n. I went through Dell's configurator for the machine and noticed that 1 year of basic support added $60 and one year of "Standard" support adds $210. I told him that the System76 comes with support that's probably equivalent to the one year "Standard" support from Dell, or most likely it's actually better support. I honestly think you will get a better ownership experience and support and better quality hardware from System76 or ZaReason than you will from Dell. As for the Black Friday / loss leader on websites controversy: Yes they can and will take some customers away from the botique Linux vendors. But they will tend to be people who can save a few bucks by wiping Windows and installing their own Linux distro. My friend has installed Ubuntu on an old desktop but he would rather have a supported Ubuntu laptop for his wife. |
| jdixon Dec 01, 2009 3:28 PM EDT |
> I went through Dell's configurator for the machine and noticed that 1 year of basic support added $60 and one year of "Standard" support adds $210. Well, you have to define basic and standard. Dell's current included option is for one year of "Mail-in Service". One year of "inHome Service after Remote Diagnosis" is an additional $70. System76 includes 1 year of "Technical Support". It's pretty hard to compare support packages. Dell's consumer support is only so-so, but probably as good or better than the industry standard. I can't speak for System76. I've heard glowing reports of ZaReason's support from others, but again no personal experience. Both the Pangolin and 15n are outside my price range (my Mini 9 was around $240, including taxes and shipping), so it's rather a moot point for me. |
| rijelkentaurus Dec 01, 2009 3:58 PM EDT |
Quoting: Dell's consumer support is only so-so, but probably as good or better than the industry standard. Order a Dell from the business lineup (Optiplex, Latitude, Precision, etc) and Dell's support is A+. |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 01, 2009 4:17 PM EDT |
Quoting:Order a Dell from the business lineup (Optiplex, Latitude, Precision, etc) and Dell's support is A+. That's a good thing to know. Often I wonder whether the consumer or business offerings are better, and this is something that could push a buyer in one direction or another. Not that I've ever purchased a "new" computer, but if I was planning to do so, it's good to know. |
| mortenalver Dec 01, 2009 4:51 PM EDT |
I don't think Dells support (in terms of helping with using the computer) for consumer machines is very good. However, when I recently had a hard disk crash on my Dell laptop the service was excellent. I reported it on a Friday, and the following Monday I received the replacement disk. |
| jdixon Dec 01, 2009 5:11 PM EDT |
> However, when I recently had a hard disk crash on my Dell laptop the service was excellent. If you can convince them you have a hardware problem, their service has always been good. The problem has always been is in getting to that point. |
| tracyanne Dec 01, 2009 5:21 PM EDT |
I have to agree, if you buy a Dell business offering, their service is very good. The company I work for buys Dell, and if we have hardware probs we get a technician on site to fix the problem. Because of the amount of money the company has pent with Dell, the company also gets a special discounts on purchases, and a case manager, who always calls back. |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 01, 2009 6:19 PM EDT |
I imagine that wiping Windows off the Dell box and replacing it with {Linux/BSD distro/project of choice} could cause problems with the Dell support. I'd like to be wrong (and I'd like Dell to offer Linux on everything). |
| Steven_Rosenber Dec 01, 2009 6:21 PM EDT |
On the other hand, I've had the occasion to open up three Dell boxes of varying vintages over the past month, and all had the memory modules in a hard-to-access places (and not enough places to plug in said modules) and featured a bizarre plastic contraption that seems meant to funnel air across the motherboard. One had a dead power supply, and of course only a Dell part would fit. I pulled the hard drive and scrapped the rest. |
| rijelkentaurus Dec 01, 2009 7:59 PM EDT |
Quoting: I imagine that wiping Windows off the Dell box and replacing it with {Linux/BSD distro/project of choice} could cause problems with the Dell support. I'd like to be wrong (and I'd like Dell to offer Linux on everything). They actually have a live CD that can be used to run hardware tests and give error codes for the tech support, so having Linux is not really an obstacle. You don't really get Windows support anyway. |
| rijelkentaurus Dec 01, 2009 8:01 PM EDT |
Quoting: On the other hand, I've had the occasion to open up three Dell boxes of varying vintages over the past month, and all had the memory modules in a hard-to-access places (and not enough places to plug in said modules) and featured a bizarre plastic contraption that seems meant to funnel air across the motherboard. One had a dead power supply, and of course only a Dell part would fit. I pulled the hard drive and scrapped the rest. Layed out quite nicely now, IMO. Nothing is ever as (potentially) nice as a whitebox, but you can take pretty much anything out of a Dell machine without the use of a screwdriver. |
| jdixon Dec 01, 2009 8:28 PM EDT |
> One had a dead power supply, and of course only a Dell part would fit. AFAIK, that's only true of an early model Dimension and their small form factor models. The rest seem to use industry standard power supplies. And I believe the small form factor model actually is a standard one, just not one that's as commonly found. |
| mortenalver Dec 02, 2009 3:35 AM EDT |
Quoting:> However, when I recently had a hard disk crash on my Dell laptop the service was excellent. I was told to run a hardware diagnostic (that I'd already run myself), and luckily the diagnostic program comes with beeps indicating errors. I don't know if the tech could identify the problem based on the sounds, but he quickly decided that the problem was real. Quoting:I imagine that wiping Windows off the Dell box and replacing it with {Linux/BSD distro/project of choice} could cause problems with the Dell support. I'd like to be wrong (and I'd like Dell to offer Linux on everything). I don't think the hardware diagnostic depends on Windows being installed (I have kept Vista there). Anyway, I told the guy that I had installed Linux and that it was still working fine (except when trying to read from the Windows paprtition), indicating that only the Windows partition was affected by whatever had happened to the disk. He didn't comment on that. |
| gus3 Dec 02, 2009 4:01 AM EDT |
Quoting:I was told to run a hardware diagnostic (that I'd already run myself), and luckily the diagnostic program comes with beeps indicating errors. I don't know if the tech could identify the problem based on the sounds, but he quickly decided that the problem was real.The Macintosh II (late 80's) had that built into the BIOS. I was most impressed when our resident well-adjusted-techie explained to me how the tech support people could make a basic diagnosis of hardware problems over the phone, based on the ditty coming from the speaker. |
Posting in this forum is limited to members of the group: [ForumMods, SITEADMINS, MEMBERS.]
Becoming a member of LXer is easy and free. Join Us!