A balanced and complete review.
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| jdixon Oct 05, 2009 5:52 PM EDT |
Much better, IMO, than your previous one, Caitlyn. You should probably take a quick look at sbopkg, as that automates using slackbuilds.org and makes it much more usable, but that's the only thing I could find missing. I still argue that ease of use is subjective, but given your detailed listing of Slackware's strengths and weaknesses, I think any reasonable reader should be able to decide for themselves whether they agree with you or not, so it's pretty much a moot point. Good work. |
| Steven_Rosenber Oct 05, 2009 6:01 PM EDT |
Caitlyn, we agree on this one. Excellent job. |
| caitlyn Oct 05, 2009 6:35 PM EDT |
Thanks for your kind words. I do appreciate it. @jdixon: I think, for the most part, I'm saying most of the same things I did about 12.1. (I obviously won't complain about wireless or a non-functional X configuration since those things are fixed.) I said I'd be more explicit about where I was coming from this time and I think that may have made the difference in the eyes of many who have commented so far. My take on Slackware is and always has been mixed. Slackware does some extremely important things extremely well. I actually linked to a definition of usability this time so I could work from a known definition of ease of use. I think we all need to remember that what we know is always easiest. I don't find Slackware difficult *for me*. I find it time consuming and this time I explained why that is for me but might not be for someone with a more static system. What I try to do in my reviews is put myself in the position of someone who doesn't know "the Slackware way" and try to figure out what might or might not be problematic. I do the same for all distros, of course, not just Slackware. Anyway, thanks again. |
| jdixon Oct 05, 2009 8:36 PM EDT |
> I actually linked to a definition of usability this time so I could work from a known definition of ease of use. I noticed. :) A wise move, as it least it allows others to know where you're coming from. |
| bigg Oct 06, 2009 2:43 AM EDT |
I agree with jdixon. You spelled out what you were saying in much greater detail this time, and most of what you said is not controversial. |
| Alcibiades Oct 06, 2009 5:50 AM EDT |
Agreed, this was an excellent clear and well balanced review, and I'll be giving it to a friend. I was going to recommend him to fire up slackware on a spare machine as a way of really getting to know linux from the ground up, and this gives a very balanced and fair view of what he is in for, if he does. Slackware is really Linux as it was, and this has pros and cons which are well and fairly represented. t was nice to see someone in a review recognize its value as a way of really learning from the ground up, if, of course, that is what you want to do. |
| cm1967 Oct 06, 2009 6:44 AM EDT |
Great review. I've always loved Slackware but always went back to another distribution because I could never, no matter how hard I tried, get my wireless working on my trusted old Thinkpad T41. If this new release has better wireless support, I'm going to give it a try. Anyone know what network manager it's using? Is it wicd? |
| cm1967 Oct 06, 2009 6:53 AM EDT |
oops. just answered my own question. read the article again and noticed the wicd is available. |
| montezuma Oct 06, 2009 9:12 AM EDT |
In my experience if wicd doesn't work then the problem is usually a driver issue. wicd is a very nice piece of work. |
| caitlyn Oct 06, 2009 4:33 PM EDT |
I agree with Montezuma. That's why I linked to the solution for Broadcom cards. Bottom line: at this point if wireless can work in another Linux distro it can work in Slackware. However, if it requires a proprietary driver you may have to do some extra work to make it go compared to other distros. |
| Steven_Rosenber Oct 07, 2009 1:06 AM EDT |
While NetworkManager in GNOME broke my networking in the upgrade from Ubuntu 8.04 to 8.10, once I did get it working, I quickly became very impressed with the way it handles both wired and wireless networking. All they (GNOME, Ubuntu, or anybody) need to do is add some detailed, example-filled documentation and it'll all be good |
| gus3 Oct 07, 2009 1:53 AM EDT |
I'll just say this: That's the most fair and balanced review I've ever seen, of anything I'm biased for. |
| caitlyn Oct 07, 2009 2:27 AM EDT |
I've had problems with NetworkManager locking up intermittently on my hardware. The same hardware works perfectly with wicd or wifi-radar. This has happened on several different distros including Ubuntu and Pardus so it is a problem with NetworkManager. I've also found that on my older hardware that Network Manager is slow compared to the others. I've become a big fan of wicd. |
| jdixon Oct 07, 2009 10:36 AM EDT |
> ... the most fair and balanced review ... For probably obvious reasons, I resisted using that phrase. :) |
| azerthoth Oct 07, 2009 11:13 AM EDT |
Well I can say that NM has the same issues in all things Gentoo (Sabayon, Gentoo, Funtoo) from personal experiance. wicd is indeed a much better replacement, atleast when I dont just kill off NM and set it up by hand. In Sabayon with our latest release we have taken to making sure that wicd is present but not active, that way at worst you have less than 60 seconds to switch over if you have the need. |
| gus3 Oct 07, 2009 11:45 AM EDT |
Quoting:For probably obvious reasons, I resisted using that phrase. :)Heh, yeah. But I figured it was apropos whatever anybody wants. |
| caitlyn Oct 07, 2009 1:02 PM EDT |
It's OK. IMHO, none of the cable news outlets in the U.S. are either fair or balanced. They all have their own agendas and you can pick apart any of their marketing slogans. |
| jdixon Oct 07, 2009 1:12 PM EDT |
I didn't figure you would mind Caitlyn, but at least one obvious pun (not one of mine) seems to have pushed the wrong buttons recently, so I thought it best to avoid the issue. We've been losing too many threads lately. |
| caitlyn Oct 07, 2009 1:28 PM EDT |
@jdixon: Fair enough. I agree with better safe than sorry in this case. |
| Steven_Rosenber Oct 07, 2009 4:14 PM EDT |
I'm doing a Debian Lenny install now, the Xfce desktop, which doesn't include NetworkManager and generally shuns all things GNOMEish. I'll be looking to install Wicd. |
| theboomboomcars Oct 07, 2009 8:45 PM EDT |
The thing I really don't like about NM is that you have to have X running to have it work. There are times where having a network connection without X running is good. |
| krisum Oct 08, 2009 12:19 AM EDT |
> The thing I really don't like about NM is that you have to have X running to have it work. I don't think that is true for wired network since we have it that way on many servers. For wireless or VPN connections it does require logging in to enable reading the password but then there is cnetworkmanager though I have never used it. |
| caitlyn Oct 08, 2009 8:33 PM EDT |
Sadly the Slackware community still contains a vocal minority that can't tolerate criticism of any kind. If you read some of the latest comments on DWW I "don't understand the software" and I'm a clueless "typical tech journalist". It's the Slackware way, which is oh so easy and perfect, or the highway. I have no use for zealots or fanatics of any stripe. It's a pity that the LXer Slackware community isn't fully representative of the community as a whole. Oh, and yes, you guys should take that as a compliment. |
| theboomboomcars Oct 08, 2009 8:39 PM EDT |
Unfortunately cnetworkmanager isn't in the repository for LinuxMint, so I'll have to wait until I have more time to check it out. |
| caitlyn Oct 08, 2009 8:59 PM EDT |
Of course, Linux Questions, the Slackware forum, is far worse. In addition to the personal attacks on me and dismissing the review because I wrote it we get the idea that anyone dependent on a GUI isn't a "real Linux user" and that distros with good GUI tools "change your diapers". Yes, a few people explained where I was coming from clearly. Oh, and the misinformation is amazing. I didn't know I was ever part of the VectorLinux development team. I don't think the VL developers knew it either. I don't ever remember calling VectorLinux a "truly excellent distro". In fact, I'm sure I haven't. I never objected to or had objections to ncurses-based installers. Indeed, I mentioned in the article and in my reviews of the various *buntus that I alwaus recommend the text based Ubuntu installer because it offers more flexibility. Of course, reading what I really said makes it much harder to launch into an assault on what I've written. It's much easier if you make it all up. Do these people ever realize or care how this makes Slackware look to someone who finds their comments through Google and isn't a Slacker? |
| bigg Oct 09, 2009 7:22 AM EDT |
@caitlyn I agree, there are a few Slackers who are annoying. It doesn't bother me that they like to compile their own software, edit their own configuration files by hand, etc. (who cares what someone else does) but they really annoy me when they claim everyone else should be doing the same. Compared to what I've seen with other distro communities, though, I've found Slackware to be relatively tame. One word of advice: you're doing something wrong if you take any of the comments on DWW seriously. The entire comments section is a waste of resources. I'm not as familiar with linuxquestions. |
| caitlyn Oct 09, 2009 10:27 AM EDT |
@bigg: My concern isn't that some people may take ridiculous shots at me. I don'ttake it seriously at all. I consider the source. My concern is rather what people outside the community think when they see purile nonsense. It reflects badly on the Linux community as a whole and undoes a lot of good advocacy work. |
| caitlyn Oct 25, 2009 10:37 PM EDT |
My follow up review of GSB 2.26.3 (on Slackware 13.0, of course) will be on DistroWatch in the morning. |
| Steven_Rosenber Oct 26, 2009 12:13 PM EDT |
Gotta go get that one ... My main "worry" about all of the GNOME projects for Slackware is that they won't be supported anywhere near as long as the distro itself. ... otherwise they add a whole lot to Slackware - you tend to get much more than just the GNOME desktop. Most include OpenOffice and other apps. |
| caitlyn Oct 26, 2009 12:39 PM EDT |
@Steven: That is a valid concern. If you want to keep running an older version of Slackware the patches will keep coming. Patches for a GNOME add on are another matter and may stop fairly quickly after a new Slackware release. You might want to query the various GNOME distros (GSB, Dropline, gSlacky, GWARE) and see how long they provide security patches. My main objection to Dropline and gSlacky is that they rip out and replace too much of Slackware. GSB keeps that to a minimum, which is why I recommend it. |
| Steven_Rosenber Oct 26, 2009 3:41 PM EDT |
My recommendation would be to run ZenWalk with GNOME. |
| caitlyn Oct 26, 2009 3:44 PM EDT |
Zenwalk doesn't support older versions so that doesn't solve the problems. Interesting choice. I offered a Zenwalk 6.2 review to Ladislav but he wasn't terribly interested. He felt that was something pretty much everybody reviews. A GSB review was something different and he really liked the idea so I went with it :) |
| Steven_Rosenber Oct 26, 2009 3:52 PM EDT |
Zenwalk is one of those distros - I find that it runs very, very well, has a whole lot of packages, but the hobbyist factor is a bit too high for production. |
| caitlyn Oct 26, 2009 5:23 PM EDT |
I agree completely. They also don't always get out security patches on a timely basis and often not at all. If you do want them you have to go to the snapshot repository which leaves you open to all sorts of breakage. The core distro, out of the box, is really well done. Beyond that is where I have issues with it. FWIW, this is probably also why I ended up leaving Vector Linux behind for all but my old gear. It's great for old equipment, better than anything else I found, so I keep using it. They are very prompt with security, at least for the last 18 months or so. I just know that it isn't a real business but rather a labor of love. Granted, it's lasted 10 years and may well be around 10 years from now. I just like having a corporate presence (preferably a big one) or a government presence behind an OS. |
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