Is tuxchick serious?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| wolfen69 Sep 29, 2009 7:06 PM EDT |
Wow. I can't believe she does not know that the term "guys" is used very loosely these days. What a waste of bandwidth. I find it very hard to believe Shuttleworth has anything against women in open source. People like tuxchick are just desperate for some attention. |
| gus3 Sep 29, 2009 7:20 PM EDT |
There are times that "consider the source" is the correct thing to do. But that's the first thing you did, without even considering the possibility that she might have a point. Oh, now you're going to chastise me for doing the same thing? Hey, sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. (Which is particularly apropos here.) |
| azerthoth Sep 29, 2009 7:24 PM EDT |
I really cant say anything here. If I speak my opinion on this piece I get labeled sexist and oppressive, if I don't then I feel that I am passively offering support for this travesty. |
| HoTMetaL Sep 29, 2009 7:34 PM EDT |
@ wolfen69: Carla Schroder has been on a "men-in-FOSS-are-sexist-pigs" rant for the last month or so with little to no basis for her uniform accusations of prolific sexism in the open source community. It seems merely a tactic to generate traffic to her Linux Today blogsite at the unfortunate expense of truth and actuality. Anyone can dissect words in any way they choose in order to "prove" their point (take the extreme left- and right-wing media for example). Schroder is doing exactly the same. I regularly speak to classrooms full of female and male Computer Science students, and everyone understands that when I say "you guys should read Chapter 4 by Tuesday", that it includes everyone. Suggesting or trying to convince others that it means something sexist is completely IGNORANT. Sexism is indeed a reality in every society. However, it does not prevail in Free Open Source Software circles any more than it does in any other technology area. Suggesting so - as Schroder does - is an example of irresponsible journalism and is libelous to Shuttleworth. The rants are becoming old now. |
| tuxchick Sep 29, 2009 7:54 PM EDT |
Of course I am serious, and thank you wolfen and hotmetal for proving me right once again. Who says trolls have no value? |
| golem Sep 29, 2009 8:08 PM EDT |
This whole topic is nothing but a troll. Begin by asking whether the male/female distribution is any different in FOSS from other segments of the industry. Until that is answered, there is nothing to discuss. |
| gus3 Sep 29, 2009 8:20 PM EDT |
golem: caitlyn already answered that one on another thread. Find it yourself, put some effort into educating yourself, and maybe you'll be taken seriously. HotShot: Your comment about your abuse of the English language is just "la la la la la can't hear you" and has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Read the entire article, and click the links. Watch the video, and see the reality of Mr. Shuttleworth's attitude toward females in I.T. |
| tracyanne Sep 29, 2009 9:54 PM EDT |
Over here everone gets called mate, male or female, is that sexist? Personally I'd rather be called mate than love, or sweetie (yuck), or when the the group is referenced, the guys. I find it pretty d@mn sexist to be set apart from the other guys I work with or socialise with. |
| jeff Sep 29, 2009 9:56 PM EDT |
Something to consider: some time ago Carla (Tuxchick) posted some very homophobic comments on this board that not only were inappropriate but clearly violated the terms of service. Unfortunately, that thread stayed up until a complaint was made. An apology was definitely in order though as far as I know none was ever offered. |
| tuxchick Sep 29, 2009 10:01 PM EDT |
I must be hitting some serious nerves to bring out to so many drive-by trolls. Thanks guys, keep 'em coming, the more you post the more you prove me right. |
| azerthoth Sep 29, 2009 10:04 PM EDT |
*cough* jeff you owe me a new keyboard. You better be able to come up with a reference for that other wise I'm going to call you many unkind names that may seem libelous or slanderous. Happily though they will have the redeeming quality of being true. |
| gus3 Sep 29, 2009 10:12 PM EDT |
Thank you az, you beat me to the punch, and saved me a TOS violation. |
| azerthoth Sep 29, 2009 10:16 PM EDT |
TC, no, it does nothing to prove your point, unless your point is that yes there are indeed trolls. The problem I have with your piece is that you went into it looking to be offended, knowing beforehand that there was at the least one place where you were sure to be. You took a hyper sensitive stance intentionally, it would have been amazing had you not found something to be offended by. That he made an insensitive comment is given, that every time he used 'guys' being a gender related slight, that's reaching. I believe I have noticed you using the word in the same way he did too. Sorry TC, this is one of those articles that does no one any good, and some amount of damage. It brings no validation only a sense of repetitive aggravation. To be honest, while it is a topic that I typically would pay attention too, I'm not anymore. The last few hundred posts just here on LXer have kind of beaten the whole thing into senselessness. |
| flufferbeer Sep 29, 2009 10:24 PM EDT |
@azertoth,
I think jeff has indicated that once a complaint was made, the homophobic thread in question was taken down. Your *cough* request is thus just a strawman argument. @tuxchick, Of course you won't admit this, however, it seems that you HAVE gone out of your way to lampoon blog on how awfully sexist all these FOSS-people really are. Let's see, Richard Stallman (of course) and now Mark Shuttleworth. Which widely renown FOSS-men have you NOT slung mud against for making sexist remarks or insinuations, eh ?? Any positive things to write on non-sexist FOSS-men (assuming that you don't deny that such exist) ?? Otherwise, I would tend to concur with HoTMetal that your rants are getting old now -- even those comments of yours targeted and re-targeted back at your self-defined trolls. fb |
| HoTMetaL Sep 29, 2009 10:30 PM EDT |
@ jeff: I recall such comments and had I some form of Wayback Machine, I could repost tuxchick's derogatory comments. I remember the incident clearly as the day I removed Linux Today from my bookmarks list. Unfortunately for the observant, we have no such machine available. @ tuxchick: The only thing you have "proved right" in this forum and in your blog is your own inability to contribute accurate and convincing evidence that Mark Shuttleworth and others in the Free Software community are overly sexist men with a hidden agenda to rid women from open source projects. Your postings should be critically scrutinized by LXer readers for factual content instead of the irresponsible, sensationalist, opinionated FUD that it is. Using LXer as a means to promote your own slanted website and your chronic name-calling of other forum participants of this site should be enough evidence to warrant a closer inspection of your personal agenda, its importance and relevance to free software, and its adherence to this site's Terms of Service. |
| azerthoth Sep 29, 2009 10:36 PM EDT |
HoTMetal ... pot meet kettle. |
| gus3 Sep 29, 2009 10:53 PM EDT |
@HotStuff: Go ahead, protest to the LXer mods all you want. Give it your best shot. Just don't be surprised if you hear them laughing at you through cyberspace. Quoting:The only thing you have "proved right" in this forum and in your blog is your own inability to contribute accurate and convincing evidence that Mark Shuttleworth and others in the Free Software community are overly sexist men with a hidden agendaThat's a neat trick, simultaneously putting words in her mouth, and moving the goalposts (changing the standards of evidence). There's nothing overt about Shuttleworth's sexism, and Carla in fact disavows any claim of that: Quoting:I believe that an apology is in order, both for the unfortunate thread of exclusion and sexism that runs the entire length of the talk, and for not understanding that dumb stuff like that distracts from the talk itself. That is unfortunate, because if you take away the dumb stuff it is an important and excellent presentation.See the emphasis I added? The point is that he behaved this way in ignorance. There's nothing overt about it. @fb: jeff can put up, or shut up. "Pics, or it didn't happen" isn't unreasonable in this case. |
| tuxchick Sep 29, 2009 11:03 PM EDT |
flufferbeer, show me my anti-RMS postings. There aren't any. In fact I defended him in that whole virgin Emacs brouhaha, and I shouldn't have. az, the issue won't go away until asshattery and sexism are exceptional instead of routine in FOSS. Mark Shuttleworth spends this whole keynote talking about the important of collaboration and community and expanding the base, and Ubuntu is 'humanity to others', and yet in this speech he can't live up to his own standards. It would have been very easy to not tell a dumb hooker joke, which went over like a lead balloon to a mostly-male audience. It would have been easy to use more precise, inclusive language, such as 'developers', 'contributors', 'men, women'. Explaining to girls? Come on. 'Explain to end users' fits the context and meaning a whole lot better. Mark himself addressed the problem of exclusion and barriers to entry: Quoting: "Maybe for some people it's part of the fun, you have this cabal effect. But it's damaging to our ability to grow projects. Only people who are insanely persistent can cross that chasm. Since women's opinions don't count for much in this fabulous FOSS universe, how about some men's, like Chris Ball and Matt Zimmerman: On keynotes and apologies http://blog.printf.net/articles/2009/09/25/on-keynotes-and-a... Explaining to girls http://mdzlog.alcor.net/2009/09/29/explaining-to-girls/ *edit* Adam Williamson has some thoughts too: http://www.happyassassin.net/2009/09/25/sexism-debate/ |
| tracyanne Sep 29, 2009 11:57 PM EDT |
Carla, thanks for calling me a troll. and Quoting:Since women's opinions don't count for much in this fabulous FOSS universe, At least with some people [dissenting] women's opinions don't count for much. |
| tuxchick Sep 30, 2009 12:11 AM EDT |
sigh. TA, I never called you a troll. Didn't even think it. |
| klhrevolution Sep 30, 2009 12:22 AM EDT |
Tracy Anne keep on rockin! |
| HoTMetaL Sep 30, 2009 12:38 AM EDT |
@tuxchick: Shuttleworth's comments were in poor taste and politically incorrect, and this has already been well-reported and well-documented - as you have already pointed out - on many other sites by people who were actually in attendance at his keynote speech. Injecting your personal spin on the writings of other bloggers and then calling it "Mark Shuttleworth's Community Has No Women" was a flamebait tactic that speaks directly to your journalistic talents. What is extremely ironic is your treatment of others in this forum. Calling participants "trolls" while having no reason to do so other than them having a differing opinion than yours, directly reflects on your own personal integrity. Why should anyone read the scriblings and rants of one who conducts themselves in such a rude manner? And how can you expect equal treatment in the free software community if you, yourself, cannot treat others equally and with some respect? The answer: you cannot. Participation by women in the open source community may continue to grow and become a powerful force, but it will come to be that way despite your efforts, not because of them. |
| azerthoth Sep 30, 2009 12:52 AM EDT |
Interesting, attacks are a "reflection of personal integrity", shall we review your first post to the thread HotMetaL? Or how it has changed from a blog post to journalistic piece? How about a reference to Carla making a homophobic post (this one tickles me silly). That you have affirmed the premise for her post, yet have attempted to change the topic so that you may have your rant is a standard bait and switch tactic of trolls. It was aptly called from the first, and every post you have made since only strengthens the definition. Take yourself and your hypocrisy and find a bridge to hide under, that's where trolls belong isn't it? |
| golem Sep 30, 2009 1:03 AM EDT |
gus3: I've already educated myself, thank you very much. That this thread exists suggests that very few others have. |
| tuxchick Sep 30, 2009 1:06 AM EDT |
I call trolls because that's what HoTMetaL and Jeff are, if you're even two different people. You have done everything but address any specific on-topic points, and you posted an outright lie. You're all about attacking the messenger because you have nothing else. The title was inspired by Mr. Shuttleworth's inspirational vision of the future of Linux and FOSS having no women in it. He never used the word "woman", not once. The only women in his keynote were a hooker, a mom, a grandma, and 'girls', none of whom were included as FOSS contributors and members of his glorious FOSS community. And who, in fact, were singled out as being tech-incompetent. Some readers say that "guys" is inclusive, but I think the context makes it clear he is referring to men only. "Guys" is a bad word choice anyway for someone trying to portray a future of a broad contributor base made up of people from all walks of life, and a lot of people take it to mean men, not men and women. ("Get this guy and that guy to review it..." means 'get this man.' No way can that be spun to 'get this woman' etc.) If it's any consolation he seems to think rather stereotypically of men as well, assuming that they all like dirty jokes and don't want women in their Linux clubhouse. Which thankfully is not true. Matt Zimmerman, who was at the keynote and who is the CTO of Canonical, wrote Quoting: The remark in question was sexist, and although it may seem small in itself, it is representative of an attitude which is harmful to the community. |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 1:35 AM EDT |
There is nothing, I repeat nothing, absolutely nothing sexist about Mark Shuttleworths use of the word guys. If he had said guys and girls it would have been incredibly sexist. but he used guys in exactly the same way I, we here in Australia use it, inclusionary. Mark Shuttleworth need make no appology for his choice of words. Move on people. You are wrong Carla, you are making Mountains out of molehill, chr15t you are making mount Everests out of flat plains. I've seen him speak, I' read the count of his use of the word guys. His use of language is very little different from mine, as one would expect as the South African use of english is very silimar to Australian and new Zealand. Please, for sanity's sake give it a rest |
| flufferbeer Sep 30, 2009 1:51 AM EDT |
@tuxchick,
..../ Sigh.... when oh when will you ever learn? /...
Actually, i think that YOU are the one who is still mudslinging (FUDslinging? troll-slinging?) against Mark S. and anyone else you can get your paws on.
Look at your OWN BLOG and the above comments !!
Shame on you, the nerve.
I think you should more carefully re-read HoTMetal's reasoned comments located just above azertoth's rationalizations above, this before your next lashing-out..
Then again, you probably won't do this, your blog hits might suffer, and you'll try to find another FOSS-guys-are-sexist target to bring the site-hits back up. I say Thank Goodness that to my knowledge Mark Shuttleworth has not lowered himself to respond. wolfen69, TracyAnne and HoTMetal ++1 And enough on this twisting and lashing out on this whole FOSS-guys-are-sexist monomania. I agree that it's time to move on. 4c |
| krisum Sep 30, 2009 2:12 AM EDT |
@flufferbeer
Quoting: Actually, i think that YOU are the one who is still mudslinging (FUDslinging? troll-slinging?) against Mark S. and anyone else you can get your paws on.Probably you need to think better. How is calling for better choice of words so as to be more inclusive mudslinging? Quoting: HoTMetal's reasoned commentsThose are full of strawman arguments, changing goals etc. and IMO do not deserve any response. I can see why some see "guys" as exclusive and others like TA see the same as inclusive. However, that is an opinion and people better stick with something like "folks" which is better in any case by all standards. Though I share some of azerthoth's opinion as regards the hypersensitivity of the article, there is no doubt that proper choice of words is an absolute must particularly for those who are considered to be (or are portrayed to be) leaders and passing a poor choice under humour just does not cut it. |
| theBeez Sep 30, 2009 2:19 AM EDT |
Well, if:
- Someone pulls out a 3 year old report to "prove" a causality between sexism and the number of women in FOSS the report itself never drew;
- Frequently and consistently misrepresents this report;
- Represses other opinions in plain violation of journalistic ethics;
- Abuses her journalistic responsibility in order to pursue her political points and launch an all out witch hunt after the most eminent members of our community;
- Doesn't change her policy after being warned. She simply ceases to be a journalist and part of our community. Boycott LT. |
| krisum Sep 30, 2009 2:36 AM EDT |
@theBeez So there you are again with the same old ... (actually only lies would qualify here) Quoting: - Someone pulls out a 3 year old report to "prove" a causality between sexism and the number of women in FOSS the report itself never drew; - Frequently and consistently misrepresents this report;Here's the deal. Get the evidence that a causality from the report was drawn as you make it out. Also get the evidence that the report was misrepresented by Carla (the only quote I have seen was w.r.t. the percentage of women in FOSS as opposed to IT). If you have actually something there you could find a supporter in me ... |
| theBeez Sep 30, 2009 2:39 AM EDT |
@krisum
Why don't you get the report yourself? Spend as many hours to dissect it as I have? BTW, even Bruce admitted there is no such causality, it was in his view only a "hypothesis". Note a hypothesis is a possible explanation without any proof. Hans Bezemer |
| krisum Sep 30, 2009 2:45 AM EDT |
@theBeez
Quoting: Why don't you get the report yourself?So you sidestepped the deal. No problem, lets try and repeat it. Get me the evidence that Carla misrepresented the report (unless quoting from a report is misrepresenting in your standards) and drew a causality between sexism and the number of women in FOSS *from the report*. If not, your claims in the post above this one are just lies. |
| theBeez Sep 30, 2009 2:57 AM EDT |
@krisum
For your information, when I REALLY quoted from the report, Carla reacted as if stung by a bee. I obviously wasn't supposed to do that. Note _I_ never said Carla "lied". There are several levels of truth. Sometimes it just how you represent facts and the impression that you leave. I suppose Carla has these skills. Abusing them to this extent is morally questionable. And yes, krisum, maybe I'll post a followup on the details of this report. Maybe you'll come to the conclusion that I'm right. But for the time being I have spent too much of my spare time to this theme. I'm not paid nor do I have any time allocated by my employer for these kinds of things. Believe it or not, but I DO research my blogs. I have a regular job AND a FOSS project to run, apart from several other activities. That's life, that's FOSS. If I can't get you to get those facts yourself, though luck. |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 3:16 AM EDT |
Quoting:....passing a poor choice under humour just does not cut it. I saw no attempt at humour, in mark Shuttleworths use of the word guys. |
| Sander_Marechal Sep 30, 2009 3:36 AM EDT |
I just want to correct one thing:Quoting:Using LXer as a means to promote your own slanted website ... Carla isn't using LXer for any of that. We publish news. All the news (well, most of it anyway). If you check the team page at http://lxer.com/team.php you can see that she is not an editor here. You are free to submit your own content as well, as is any member. Get a blog, write a good article and submit it here: http://lxer.com/module/newswire/stories/ |
| krisum Sep 30, 2009 3:45 AM EDT |
Quoting: I saw no attempt at humour, in mark Shuttleworths use of the word guys.That comment was regarding Shuttleworths "hard to explain to girls" that originally caused all this. |
| krisum Sep 30, 2009 3:54 AM EDT |
@theBeezQuoting: For your information, when I REALLY quoted from the report, Carla reacted as if stung by a bee.Irrelevant as regards your claims. Quoting: Note _I_ never said Carla "lied".Of course not. You said "Frequently and consistently misrepresents this report" which was a lie. In other words you lied not Carla, and that is what I said. Quoting: But for the time being I have spent too much of my spare time to this theme.Again, even though your claim of "spending hours to dissect the report" makes for an amusing description, it is irrelevant w.r.t. your claims that: Quoting: - Someone pulls out a 3 year old report to "prove" a causality between sexism and the number of women in FOSS the report itself never drew; - Frequently and consistently misrepresents this report; So either present the evidence for these, or these are just lies and you need to apologize for having repeatedly and consistently brought up these lies even when corrected. |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 4:14 AM EDT |
Quoting:However, that is an opinion and people better stick with something like "folks" which is better in any case by all standards. Though I share some of azerthoth's opinion as regards the hypersensitivity of the article, there is no doubt that proper choice of words is an absolute must particularly for those who are considered to be (or are portrayed to be) leaders... I disagree. In my opinion it's time people in certain other countries loosened up, recognised that their way of using language is not the be all and end all of how language is used, and made more than a few half hearted attempts at understanding other country's mores. Mark Shuttleworth uses perfectly acceptable English, and his us of guys does not need to be changed to some bland politically correct folks, persons, or whatever. Personally I'm sick to the back teeth with politician language from our leaders, calling spade "an implement for digging holes", everything but what it is. And I'll be buggered if I'm going to sit still and accept being told by some one how I should use the language I grew up with. Case in point, Thongs are what you wear on your feet, where I come from. Mark Shuttleworth uses language pretty much the same way most of us Southern Hemisphere Colonials use English, and there's not a damn thing wrong with it. |
| krisum Sep 30, 2009 4:24 AM EDT |
Quoting: In my opinion it's time people in certain other countries loosened up, recognised that their way of using language is not the be all and end all of how language is used, and made more than a few half hearted attempts at understanding other country's mores.Maybe, maybe not. But the same should also apply to Shuttleworth, for example. Being inclusive to all means choice of words that goes well with most. Of course, if that is not a concern then one would use words as in casual talk and that is the conclusion people having differing perceptions are likely to draw. It has got to do nothing with being "politically correct". |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 6:16 AM EDT |
Well mate it always seems that we have to be cognisant of a certain other countries mores, about time they learned to respect other people's. |
| tuxchick Sep 30, 2009 9:50 AM EDT |
TA, the old "It doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother you" deal has never been valid, and it doesn't work. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 30, 2009 10:17 AM EDT |
> the old "It doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother you" deal has never been valid, and it doesn't work. Waitresses around here call me "sweetie" and "honey". I just smile rather than bite their heads off for being insensitive. "Cultural understanding" is a two way street. As much as one can expect another to understand what offends, it is just as valid to expect one to grasp that what offends them may not offend others. Being deliberately offensive is an awful thing and deserves repudiation. Offending by accident means someone chose to be offended. Now let's see a show of hands for everyone who thinks Shuttleworth deliberately meant to say that there were no female programmers. The old "It doesn't bother you, so it won't let it bother me" deal works, every day. |
| krisum Sep 30, 2009 10:29 AM EDT |
@BobQuoting: "Cultural understanding" is a two way street.You have quite a strange idea of "two way street". If one should expect that none should be offended since it does not offend a few or self, then it is no understanding rather just sticking to own ideas. No, the two way street in "cultural understanding" is that both mutually understand as to what offends the other person and avoid that, or at the very least if made aware of a problem then recognize it. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 30, 2009 10:38 AM EDT |
> If one should expect that none should be offended since it does not offend a few or self, then it is no understanding rather just sticking to own ideas. That's not what I said. I know very well that being called "sweetie" and "honey" is no sign of disrespect for them, so I do not take offense. > No, the two way street in "cultural understanding" is that both mutually understand as to what offends the other person and avoid that No, that's is not "two way". You are saying that the speaker must be aware of every offense they might give. That's all. Sorry, Krisum, to get offended one must choose to be offended. Sometimes it's the right choice, sometimes not, but it is always a choice. |
| krisum Sep 30, 2009 10:53 AM EDT |
> That's not what I said.
You did, or at least thats the inference. If "it is just as valid to expect one to grasp that what offends them may not offend others" (in your words), then a speaker may just ignore what offends others since after all it is to be expected that those who are offended must understand that it may not offend others. > You are saying that the speaker must be aware of every offense they might give. Yes, speaker must be aware of at least some if not all. And as mentioned, at least when made aware of it then it should be recognized. |
| theBeez Sep 30, 2009 11:03 AM EDT |
@tuxchick
Quote: "TA, the old "It doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother you" deal has never been valid, and it doesn't work" Get it in your head that the same applies to "It bothers me, so it should bother you". FYI, that would only lead to the circumstances where nothing doesn't bother anybody. I simply don't like to live in a world where fundamentalists (pick your favorite ideology) rule, so nobody gets irritated by anybody. So yes, "If it irritates you, get out" is certainly valid. There are atheists that are irritated by creationists, creationists that are irritated by atheists, christians and muslims that are irritated by homosexuals, feminists that are irritated by hackers and hackers that are irritated by feminists. Everybody has his favorite irritations. And frankly, "I'm fainting because he used the word 'big boys'", I don't buy it. Irritation, yes. Hurt in the depths of your soul, no. |
| azerthoth Sep 30, 2009 11:23 AM EDT |
krisum in which case you have to admit that it is impossible to go through life without giving offense to someone on a daily basis. I do so and am unrepentant about many of the 'offenses' perpetrate. Wearing leather, eating meat, driving a truck with a V10, having an occasional cigarette, etc, etc. The people who are offended by these actions have chosen to be offended by them. Verbal dialog is the same way, if there is more than one way to take any given comment or turn of phrase, someone will always take it in a manner in which it was not meant ... by choice ... and be offended. We aren't dropping the N word or slighting someones heritage/religion/ethnicity. For the most part we are talking about a common turn of phrase, that even TC has used as an all inclusive 'guys'. I agree that there was a poor choice in the keynote, just as I am certain that it was unintentional, and that TC has taken a hyper sensitive stance on it and taken her point to the level of 'asshattery' herself. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 30, 2009 11:32 AM EDT |
Krisum, > then a speaker may just ignore what offends others since after all it is to be expected that those who are offended must understand that it may not offend others. Since you enjoy quoting what I wrote, then maybe you just didn't read far enough to see this: "Being deliberately offensive is an awful thing and deserves repudiation." So your "a speaker may just ignore" has already been covered. Try reading what I write next time, instead of getting all offended over just one sentence that you choose to take out of context. |
| krisum Sep 30, 2009 12:13 PM EDT |
@azerthoth
> krisum in which case you have to admit that it is impossible to go through life without giving offense to someone on a daily basis. Maybe. However, here the discussion is of an address to a gathering so trying not to offend sections of the gathering would be expected, particularly when one of the themes is an all-inclusive approach. > that TC has taken a hyper sensitive stance on it On that I agree with you. @Bob > So your "a speaker may just ignore" has already been covered. No it has not been covered. One may deliberately ignore, or one may ignore because of being blissfully unaware (and refusing to be educated) or out of habit which is likely the case for Shuttleworth here. > Try reading what I write next time, instead of getting all offended over just one sentence that you choose to take out of context. Try reflecting a bit more before responding. And what makes you think that I was offended? |
| tuxchick Sep 30, 2009 12:21 PM EDT |
Oh my, wandering way off topic again in classic LXer fashion. This is about a speech, not everything everyone does everyday. A speech in which Mark S. contradicted his own words. A speech that bothered a lot of people and not just me; so at least I'm not the Lone Nut, but the Nut With Lots of Company. Whether the offenses were accidental or on purpose the effect is the same: it distracts from Mark's message, and he looks like a chicken who doesn't have the gumption to say he's sorry. It's chicken to not take responsibility for one's own words and to spout off crud like "You choose to be offended." That is so lame. I choose to take Mark S. to task for making a bad sexist exclusionary speech. He is a media-savvy world traveler who makes public speeches all the time-- he should know better, and if he doesn't then he better learn. Assuming he wants anyone to take his rhetoric about 'humanity to others' seriously, that is. *edit* A good quote from a reader: "Speakers should think of their audience like guests in their home, and try to make all of them glad to have attended the presentation." |
| theBeez Sep 30, 2009 12:42 PM EDT |
@krisum
Your proposal (now I've gotten to know the level of your arguments) is a logical fallacy. If I would present the true facts on the report, you could still claim that I misrepresent the report (or at least misinterpreted it) for the simple reason that you have not read it. So the best thing for you to do is to read it. I'll be happy to provide you with a copy or a link. You'll find that: - Time is a significant issue for women; - Women perform quite different tasks in FOSS (and little coding); - The combined effects of both is that you get very little merit in a world where coding is considered to be one of the most activities; - The majority of women lag behind where experience in computing is concerned; - You don't get a high rank in the meritocracy when you're a woman fitting that profile (which most are). You'll also find that: - There is a large gap between and men and women where the "detection" of sexism is concerned (20% vs. 80%); - Half the women NEVER observed any "sexism" in their own project; - There are no numbers on the AMOUNT of incidents; - The definition of what sexism is remains undefined (so there is no way to establish whether sexism was simply observed, experienced or really occurred); - The majority of women is not personally sexually haressed (89%); - The majority of talk that irritates women has NOTHING to do with "sexism", but e.g. flame wars. - There may be a significant amount of psychically challenged people in FOSS for the simple reason the researchers confess of needing assistance in the psychological field (sic!). Finally: - The findings are three years old; - The findings are only valid in the EU; - It is questionable that for the quantative part of the research the number of participating women was enough to draw valid conclusions (150 at least, about 350 were needed); - Sometimes numbers add up to over 100% (!!). - Of the NINE recommendations, only one MENTIONS "sexism". So. Now you. Hans Bezemer |
| theBeez Sep 30, 2009 12:49 PM EDT |
@tuxchick
"Speakers should think of their audience like guests in their home, and try to make all of them glad to have attended the presentation." Good old Dutch proverb: "You can't make everybody happy." 98% is a good number. |
| theBeez Sep 30, 2009 12:54 PM EDT |
@tuxchick
Quote: "Who says trolls have no value?" Wikipedia: "A troll is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room or blog, with the primary intent of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion." You just confessed being a troll, Carla. You're welcome to it. |
| bigg Sep 30, 2009 1:07 PM EDT |
I get the impression that some view Mark's speech as no different from what you'd say to a friend over beers while watching a football game. Mark Shuttleworth is trying to become the face of Linux. He wants to bring Linux to the masses, and he's not afraid to get in front of a camera. If he wants to represent Linux, he better learn how to deal with these issues. |
| krisum Sep 30, 2009 1:13 PM EDT |
@theBeez > Your proposal (now I've gotten to know the level of your arguments) is a logical fallacy. If I would present the true facts on the report, you could still claim that I misrepresent the report (or at least misinterpreted it) for the simple reason that you have not read it. Sorry, but you missed it yet again. Okay, final try from my side. First, this is not about the contents of report itself. It is not about your reading of the report at all. It is about *your claims*: Quoting: - Someone pulls out a 3 year old report to "prove" a causality between sexism and the number of women in FOSS the report itself never drew; - Frequently and consistently misrepresents this report; These are your words and your claims that a) Carla used the report to draw a causality between sexism and number of women in FOSS, and b) Carla misrepresents the report consistently and, by inference, deliberately. Now you need to present evidence in the form of Carla's words that she has done the above two. The only place I have seen this report quoted by Carla was with regard to the percentage of women in FOSS as opposed to IT industry. To repeat, you need to show where Carla has quoted the report and made the claims that you say *she has done on the basis of that report*. So to sum it up: you need to present evidence that Carla has done what you claim above based on which you want to garner support for your "boycott LT campaign". |
| theBeez Sep 30, 2009 1:43 PM EDT |
@krisum
The picture I draw from this report is very different from the one Carla draws, which is: (a) there is wide spread sexism in FOSS (which even Bruce denies saying); (b) it is the main reason why women do not participate. Both these conclusions are not upheld by the report. Carla's only argument is that "there are more people in commercial S/W". What Carla fails to mention (and the report does) is to say that the way FOSS works is radically different from the way commercial S/W is made (simple meritocracy vs. software engineering). That requires quite different skills sets which could easily explain (the report even supports that conclusion) the difference between the two. Not sexism. Considering Carla smart enough to appreciate this nuance I can only conclude she used this raw figures to make her point. Which is misrepresentation. QED. |
| vainrveenr Sep 30, 2009 1:49 PM EDT |
This thread is certainly tenacious. One of the commentators here wrote above Quoting:it seems that you HAVE gone out of your way to lampoon blog on how awfully sexist all these FOSS-people really are. Let's see, Richard Stallman (of course) and now Mark Shuttleworth.Actually, there no doubt certainly are clear examples of sexism by some of "these FOSS-people". OTOH, one question on this subject already bantered back and forth ad nauseum here, is whether the case brought by this piece's author is a 100 percent completely-clear case of blatant sexism in the F/OSS Community. Should the facts of this case remain so variably interpreted, then adamant claims that there IS INDEED a 100 percent completely-clear case of sexism here, run the real risk of being viewed as what may best be termed the "Cry Wolf Syndrome". What is the Cry Wolf Syndrome ?? From http://tomsdomain.com/aesop/id87.htm , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf , http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/perry/210.htm and other such similar sites: Quoting:The Boy Who Cried Wolf A liar will not be believed, even when telling the truth.The relevant point of this may be made more clear by substituting "blatant sexism in the F/OSS Community" for "Wolf" within this particular Aesop fable. |
| wolfen69 Sep 30, 2009 1:55 PM EDT |
If tuxchick spent half as much time actually doing bug reporting or coding as she has spewing troll-like drivel, the linux community would be 5 times better off. Actions speak louder than words, sweetheart. Your blog-rant won't put a dent in anything. Too bad you're not smart enough to realize that. |
| montezuma Sep 30, 2009 2:03 PM EDT |
Sweetheart??????????? LOL |
| krisum Sep 30, 2009 2:03 PM EDT |
@theBeezQuoting: Considering Carla smart enough to appreciate this nuance I can only conclude she used this raw figures to make her point. Which is misrepresentation. QED.I see that you have again gone on a tangent. At least you seem to be getting the point now. Quoting figures from a report and saying the sexism has a role in the low numbers found in the report is not misrepresentation. The question remains: where has Carla quoted the report and made claims like "the xyz report says that low numbers in FOSS are due to sexism". |
| ABCC Sep 30, 2009 3:39 PM EDT |
"Quoting figures from a report and saying the sexism has a role in the low numbers found in the report is not misrepresentation." Indeed, it's conjecture. Not, might I add, proof of any sort. |
| azerthoth Sep 30, 2009 3:46 PM EDT |
wolfen either your being intentionally offensive or you are one of the misogynistic gas bagsur being discussed. Regardless, dont let the door hit you on the way out, you have proven yourself unworthy of polite company or discourse. |
| gus3 Sep 30, 2009 3:58 PM EDT |
Haha wolfen. She's twice-published with O'Reilly, with another in the works. kthxbye |
| Steven_Rosenber Sep 30, 2009 4:04 PM EDT |
Carla is probably one of the most knowledgeable people out there writing about this stuff. Her books are among the very best out there. |
| vect Sep 30, 2009 4:34 PM EDT |
Carla has not allowed any of my 3 submissions to her blog. She's not hosting an honest discussion at her blog. |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 5:08 PM EDT |
Quoting:A speech that bothered a lot of people and not just me; so at least I'm not the Lone Nut, but the Nut With Lots of Company. I was coincidentally a speech that failed to bother an even greater number of people, including me. So I know I'm not the lone dissenting nut in the fruitcake that is FOSS. Carla you chose to be insulted by Marks use of Language, so too did those other people who've made a big song and dance about nothing. What I find incredibly insulting is that you, and those other noisy people have decide that my use of language, yes MY use of language, because it is not substantially different from Mark Shuttleworth's, is not good enough for you or them. The man used perfectly acceptable language. It was you who chose to interpret his turn of phrase as something un wholesome. You, and the others you alude to are simply wrong. Wake up smell the roses, and stop insulting us Southern Hemisphere Colonials. |
| tuxchick Sep 30, 2009 5:26 PM EDT |
Then TA, I guess you're choosing to be insulted. |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 5:27 PM EDT |
So now you get the point. Most of the time insults are where you find them. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 30, 2009 6:04 PM EDT |
Krisum, > No it has not been covered. Yes, it has. Being deliberately offensive is an awful thing and deserves repudiation. You may pick and twist and try to find wiggle-room in words like "ignorant" and "will not learn", but you will not find me defending anyone being deliberately offensive. If you want to BE offended, you will be able to be at any time. I'm sure there are offensive star patterns to be found at night, if you look hard enough. |
| theBeez Sep 30, 2009 6:07 PM EDT |
@tuxchick
"Then TA, I guess you're choosing to be insulted." Well Carla, now you're getting close at racism. That ugly face of American history rises again.. Tsk, tsk.. |
| bigg Sep 30, 2009 6:17 PM EDT |
Professor Beez, I think it's time to go take your nap. |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 6:19 PM EDT |
Lets all take a nap. |
| azerthoth Sep 30, 2009 6:23 PM EDT |
theBeez, now your just trolling ... racism is it now ... typical though, your just tossing things out there to see what sticks. There is a problem with playing with sticky things though, you cant quite ever get it all off. Pathetic. |
| theBeez Sep 30, 2009 6:27 PM EDT |
"Lets all take a nap." Good idea, tracyanne. You're right, she getting on my nerves with her self confessed trolling. |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 6:34 PM EDT |
ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz............ |
| vect Sep 30, 2009 6:43 PM EDT |
I spent time writing comments for you only to see a 'waiting to be approved my moderator' message. My time and my opinions were blocked, -if I had known this would happen I wouldn't have made comments for you. If you put a message above the comment submission field that said, 'only comments that I select will be allowed', it would help other people who thinking about commenting... just a thought. |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 6:50 PM EDT |
@vect, who are you addressing that comment to? |
| vect Sep 30, 2009 6:56 PM EDT |
The message is directed at Carla. sorry for not being clear. |
| vect Sep 30, 2009 6:59 PM EDT |
The forum allowing all of us to express our opinions seems to be here. |
| tuxchick Sep 30, 2009 8:22 PM EDT |
Yes vect, I've been moderating the heck out of the Shuttleworth discussion, because 95% of the comments are rubbish. I think my favorite is "Nina got what she deserved." When you actually listen to and understand Mark's keynote, when you have something that is not utterly stupid and repetitious to say it will get posted. As for a posting a warning that comments are going to be moderated, why bother? The ones who need to know that won't read it. It's obvious that most of the people posting have no clue about what Mark said in his keynote, or what his overall message is regarding Free software and community. They're not even all that interested, they just read a headline and spout off. |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 8:37 PM EDT |
Carla, I've been reading some comments on other froums, that the author's claim were not allowed to be published on your blog. They certainly are not rubbish. |
| bigg Sep 30, 2009 9:07 PM EDT |
I've now listened to the video (while working, so maybe I didn't catch everything) and I see nothing wrong with what Carla has written. I don't care if that is the way they talk where he's from, if he wants to represent Linux to the world, he better work on the way he talks. In some parts of the world this doesn't fly. It's not intentional, at least AFAICT, but who cares. Carla did not post a rant that made a mountain out of a molehill. Her comments were quite reasonable. If it didn't offend you, good for you, I know that some women are not offended when asked to cover their heads, but that sure doesn't fly in my culture. If he doesn't want to deal with cultural differences he needs to make it clear that Ubuntu is a regional product. |
| vect Sep 30, 2009 9:28 PM EDT |
Carla, How about giving your reader's the benefit of the doubt instead of assuming that 'The ones who need to know that won't read it'. It is dishonest not to state somewhere that the comments on your blog are selected for display. Let people know that you think '95% of the comments are rubbish.' Think of it as 'Keep Out' sign for those people who want to just 'spout off', -like me. A little notice somewhere could save some people some time. |
| vect Sep 30, 2009 9:29 PM EDT |
reader's := readers |
| vect Sep 30, 2009 9:32 PM EDT |
I also want to add that I did watch the whole video before commenting and I think the reason why you rejected my comments is because,.. well, they were good, well thought-out comments that opposed your point of view and you didn't really want to deal with comments like that. |
| vect Sep 30, 2009 9:38 PM EDT |
Carla, are you Jeff Waugh in disguise?! http://bethesignal.org/blog/2007/11/27/a-response-to-the-cac... |
| bigg Sep 30, 2009 9:39 PM EDT |
@vect You can edit posts by clicking on "Edit" below the date and time, under your name. |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 10:15 PM EDT |
@bigg
Quoting:I don't care if that is the way they talk where he's from, if he wants to represent Linux to the world, he better work on the way he talks. In some parts of the world this doesn't fly. Then I suggest you stop using Americanism, stop spelling words with a Zed (Z) _ and while you are at it stop calling Z Zee - when it is supposed to be an Ess (S) and stop assuming that the world revolves around what Americans are used to. Cos in other parts of the world that doesn't fly. I suggest that you start finding politically correct words that do fly in my country and Marks. I suggest you stop insulting my Country, and my way of speaking. Quoting:It's not intentional, at least AFAICT, but who cares. Carla did not post a rant that made a mountain out of a molehill. Her comments were quite reasonable. If it didn't offend you, good for you, I know that some women are not offended when asked to cover their heads, but that sure doesn't fly in my culture. If he doesn't want to deal with cultural differences he needs to make it clear that Ubuntu is a regional product. She and you most definitely did make mountains out of flat plains. There is nothing wrong. with what Mark said, and only someone looking for a reason to be insulted would take exception. You and Carla, and those other people who are definately in a minority (a very loud and obnoxious minority) need to take a long hard look at your selves, and your attitudes and get a life. Your arrogance does not fly in my culture. Nor does you prissy Political correctness combined with that arrogance. Now go boil your bum. |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 11:04 PM EDT |
The problem here is not Mark Shuttleworth. Nor is it the alleged sexism of a number of other people accused of same. |
| vect Sep 30, 2009 11:05 PM EDT |
Carla, We think you're a big beast. |
| gus3 Sep 30, 2009 11:22 PM EDT |
Speak for yourself, vect. |
| vect Sep 30, 2009 11:27 PM EDT |
_gus3 doesn't think you're a big beast. He's your friend :). |
| tracyanne Sep 30, 2009 11:32 PM EDT |
@vect Cut that out. There is no call for that. |
| gus3 Sep 30, 2009 11:35 PM EDT |
That's right. I'll buy pints for both her and tracyanne, if the opportunity ever presents itself. And the leading underscore is a bug in the LXer code. Pay no mind to it. |
| jdixon Oct 01, 2009 12:41 AM EDT |
See what happens when I have to work and can't access my computer all day. :) > Carla Schroder has been on a "men-in-FOSS-are-sexist-pigs" rant for the last month or so Actually, Carla's been vocal about the problem for far longer than that. At least a couple of years now, and I suspect for far longer. > However, it does not prevail in Free Open Source Software circles any more than it does in any other technology area. I'd say that's incorrect. I'd guess that it's about as prevalent in FOSS as it was in most other technology areas about 20 years ago. > Begin by asking whether the male/female distribution is any different in FOSS from other segments of the industry. Until that is answered, there is nothing to discuss. A 2005 article (http://www.widowpc.com/2005/07/girly_games.php) places the percentage of female computer science graduates at 10%, A 2007 article (http://www.articlesbase.com/education-articles/computer-prog...) places the percentage of female computer programming graduates at almost 20%, I believe the commonly quoted figure for FOSS is currently 1-2%. > ....some time ago Carla (Tuxchick) posted some very homophobic comments on this board... You know, you'd think I'd remember something like that, and I've been here a fair time now. But no such luck. And my limited knowledge of Carla's personal life inclines me to consider it unlikely. > ....as one would expect as the South African use of english is very silimar to Australian and new Zealand. And here TA has an extremely valid point, which both sides should consider. The English language is a broad and diverse one, and different subsets of it use it very differently. > Waitresses around here call me "sweetie" and "honey" Ditto. Some of them young enough to be my daughter. :) > ...or at least thats the inference... Should read, that's "my" inference. > Yes, speaker must be aware of at least some if not all... A complete and total impossibility. > ....so trying not to offend sections of the gathering would be expected, How do you know he didn't? Effort does not equal success. Now, my opinions: Is there a problem with sexism in FOSS. Yes. How big is it? We don't know for certain, but if we can notice it, it's obviously big enough to be a problem which could use attention. Does it keep women out of FOSS. Yes, but we don't know how many. Can we do anything about it? Individually, yes, but probably not as a group, due to the unusual nature of FOSS. Feel free to disagree. Is Carla overreacting? In the general case, no. In this specific case, quite possibly. :) If people don't point out problems, nothing changes. Carla is pointing out the problem (just as Tracyanne pointed out the problem with TomTom using Linux in their devices, but not allowing Linux users to interact with their devices, with about the same amount of disagreement). Engineering 101: The first step in solving a problem is identifying the problem to be solved. |
| krisum Oct 01, 2009 3:16 AM EDT |
@Bob > Yes, it has. > Being deliberately offensive is an awful thing and deserves repudiation. > You may pick and twist and try to find wiggle-room in words like "ignorant" and "will not learn", but you will not find me defending anyone being deliberately offensive. An assertion will not somehow make it true. This was never about being deliberately offensive -- neither the article nor my comments make any mention of it. There is no need for me to "wiggle-room words" other than in your imagination. Go back and read the comments again. You have simply brought in this "deliberately offensive" thing to make the article and/or comments look foolish. All this while the discussion was about Mark making exclusivist comments most likely unknowingly. Neither Carla nor I claimed that Mark did it on purpose. In any case, your statement that being "deliberately offensive deserves repudiation", in addition to being besides the point, hardly deserves any notice for you would be hard pressed to find someone who can openly claim otherwise. > If you want to BE offended, you will be able to be at any time. I'm sure there are offensive star patterns to be found at night, if you look hard enough. This was not about being offended, rather about having felt left out of the community. Some people felt that Mark's presentation is exclusivist towards women due to his choice of words/expressions and they have a fair point there. You are just taking this to ridiculous extremes to make them look silly. @jdixon > > ...or at least thats the inference... > Should read, that's "my" inference. Why? It was explained why that was "the" inference and has nothing to do with subjectivity. > > Yes, speaker must be aware of at least some if not all... > A complete and total impossibility. Again why? After all women in FOSS is hardly a recent agenda of a minuscule minority that Mark would be unaware of it and not try to be sensitive towards it. > > ....so trying not to offend sections of the gathering would be expected, > How do you know he didn't? Effort does not equal success. At least I know that he refused to apologize when made aware of the situation, which is worse. |
| bigg Oct 01, 2009 5:57 AM EDT |
@Tracyanne: You've done an excellent job of missing the point. I wrote "if he wants to represent Linux to the world, he better work on the way he talks. In some parts of the world this doesn't fly." To which you responded, "Then I suggest you stop using Americanism, stop spelling words with a Zed (Z) _ and while you are at it stop calling Z Zee - when it is supposed to be an Ess (S) and stop assuming that the world revolves around what Americans are used to." First, that is not offensive, and it's not even a "cultural" issue, it's just an arbitrary alternative that is popular in some places. Second, if I were the one going into another culture, I'd be aware of these issues. One common mistake made by individuals coming to the US from Latin America is to address letters to persons of authority "Dear Sir". It doesn't matter if that is their "culture", it's not what we do around here, and they are frequently corrected. It also doesn't matter that women in that culture are not offended and do it themselves. The key point, that you seem to have missed, is that they are going to another culture and breaking the rules. Quoting:Your arrogance does not fly in my culture. Nor does you prissy Political correctness combined with that arrogance. Now go boil your bum. Just for future reference, I am absolutely indifferent to your opinion of me as a person. Quoting:She and you most definitely did make mountains out of flat plains. Read your posts (and most of the others) in this thread to see the definition of making mountains out of flat plains. |
| Scott_Ruecker Oct 01, 2009 7:25 AM EDT |
Ok, I have to do something about this, I have too. I have let these conversations go on too long and I have to do something about it. Should I close it? Should I just delete it and be done with it? I do enough of that. But I am uncomfortable with how these threads are going.. So my question is, is there anything positive that can be taken from these threads? And my challenge to all of you is, is there something worth keeping? There needs to be a real dialogue begun on this and I am not sure if this is it or not. What do you think I should do? |
| tracyanne Oct 01, 2009 7:26 AM EDT |
Quoting:First, that is not offensive, and it's not even a "cultural" issue I find it to be very offensive. I take offence, when someone insists on spelling words that should have an Ess with a Zed. I feel insulted when the person refuses to use those words correctly after I've pointed it out to them, and I'm not the only Australian to feel that way. Quoting:Just for future reference, I am absolutely indifferent to your opinion of me as a person. No problem. At least i now know what you wont take offence at. It's a pity you insist on being offended by that which is not offensive. Quoting:Read your posts (and most of the others) in this thread to see the definition of making mountains out of flat plains. I'm not the person who accused Mark Shuttleworth of sexism, when he used the language he grew up with. Look I don't disagree about there being sexism in FOSS, what I disagree with is those that are being targeted as sexist. The problem here is they are not sexist. The wrong people are being attacked, This has the opposite affect from that intended, rather than getting people on side, it polarises the community (and it detracts from the purpose of the community), and instead of a solution being worked on everyone is taking sides, and no good purpose is served - unless the purpose is to polarise the community. Anyone who disagrees with Carla, and her supporters becomes, by definition, a sexist or a fool. If a male speaks up and states that this ain't sexism, he is howled down and cited as yet another example of a sexist male. If a woman stands up and says this ain't sexist, then she being foolish, she's uninformed, she's wilfully blind. Sexism is no worse in the FOSS community than it is in any other part of our lives, and attacking people like Mark Shuttleworth is not going to fix the problem. |
| bigg Oct 01, 2009 8:12 AM EDT |
Quoting:Anyone who disagrees with Carla, and her supporters becomes, by definition, a sexist or a fool. If a male speaks up and states that this ain't sexism, he is howled down and cited as yet another example of a sexist male. If a woman stands up and says this ain't sexist, then she being foolish, she's uninformed, she's wilfully blind. That sounds exactly like what you're doing, just from the opposite side of the issue. |
| jdixon Oct 01, 2009 10:03 AM EDT |
> One common mistake made by individuals coming to the US from Latin America is to address letters to persons of authority "Dear Sir". It doesn't matter if that is their "culture", it's not what we do around here, Uhmm, bigg, Dear Sir is still a perfectly legitimate and acceptable way to address a letter to an unknown person, and the way I was taught to do so both in high school and college (though that was more than a few years ago now). English does not have a specific form for the situation where a person may be either male or female, so the male form is always assumed to include both. > The key point, that you seem to have missed, is that they are going to another culture and breaking the rules. Rules which they have no way of knowing, and which have no greater or lesser validity than those of their own culture. What gives us the right to demand he meet our standards rather than we meeting his? > Why? It was explained why that was "the" inference and has nothing to do with subjectivity. Because inferences are by definition subjective. Otherwise they wouldn't have to be inferred. > Again why? Because it's impossible to know what will offend any given person. And in any large audience, anything you say is almost certain to offend someone. > At least I know that he refused to apologize when made aware of the situation, which is worse. Perhaps he feels he doesn't have anything to apologize for. If he never intended to offend women, then why should he apologize for them? And would a "I'm sorry you took my speech in a way I never intended" apology actually be any better? > What do you think I should do? See my earlier post in the other thread, Scott. > I take offence, when someone insists on spelling words that should have an Ess with a Zed. Perhaps you should do more to "advertize" that fact, TA. :) > The problem here is they are not sexist. The wrong people are being attacked, I suspect you are correct in this specific case. > Anyone who disagrees with Carla, and her supporters becomes, by definition, a sexist or a fool. I don't believe that's true. In my experience, Carla has always been willing to listen to a reasoned disagreeing viewpoint. However, it is true in the generic case. I think that's also theBeez's central point. > Sexism is no worse in the FOSS community than it is in any other part of our lives... I don't believe that's true either. The under-representation of women in FOSS lends itself to a sexist culture, which then drives women away, creating a vicious circle. Thus, I think it is more of a problem in FOSS. We've seen this same pattern in other technical fields. The solution here is the same as it was there: Point out the problem, deal with the individual outbreaks, and make a greater effort to welcome women to the field. As the number of women in the field increases, the outbreaks initially become worse, but as they are dealt with the problem starts to resolve itself, and eventually the sexist culture breaks down. Pointing out the problem is always the first step, and that's what Carla is doing. The fact that she may be wrong in this exact case doesn't change that. > That sounds exactly like what you're doing, just from the opposite side of the issue. Tracyanne is in a better position than either of us to know what Mark intended by his comments, bigg. If she doesn't think he intended to be offensive, then I'm willing to accept her word for it. If she's correct, what we have in this specific case is a culture conflict, not sexism, and there's no reason we should expect Mark to change to fit our culture. |
| bigg Oct 01, 2009 10:32 AM EDT |
> Dear Sir is still a perfectly legitimate and acceptable way to address a letter to an unknown person I'm not an English professor, and this is hardly something interesting to me, but if at all possible you should use the person's name. The use of "Dear Sir" depends on where you live, which is why I specified "it's not what we do around here" because I have no idea whether that's what is done in all of the US. > there's no reason we should expect Mark to change to fit our culture The point I have made repeatedly is that he is not speaking to a group of Australians. He is promoting Linux, Ubuntu, and Canonical in other cultures, in which case he definitely does need to be sensitive to those cultures. Suppose a middle eastern company decides to enter the US market. They put an advertisement/advertizement on television showing women with covered heads, US flags burning, and signs saying "Death to America". It certainly is the case that there are places where those things represent the culture. If you want to do business in the US, it's the US culture that matters. If it's not clear, I'm not saying his words offended me. I'm not saying he needs to change to my culture. I'm saying that if he wants to represent Linux to the world, he has to be sensitive to issues of culture. |
| krisum Oct 01, 2009 10:51 AM EDT |
@jdixon > Because inferences are by definition subjective. Otherwise they wouldn't have to be inferred. Hmm, even though I do not know of any definition of inference that says it has to be subjective, since your problem is with terminology maybe "deduction" will do better for you, so read "deduction" instead of "inference". > Because it's impossible to know what will offend any given person. And in any large audience, anything you say is almost certain to offend someone. Possibly, but as I said being sensitive towards participation of women in FOSS when talking of all-inclusiveness would hardly take a huge effort. > If he never intended to offend women, then why should he apologize for them? And would a "I'm sorry you took my speech in a way I never intended" apology actually be any better? Because he should understand that there are many who have differing perceptions. This kind of thing is nothing unique or hard -- if one is lecturing in a different country then the speaker would be expected to not use humour which would be considered offensive in that country, for example. Of course, if Mark's only explanation of this is with regards to his good intentions, many others will consider his all-inclusive talk to be an empty one. What a proper apology would look like has been noted in great detail elsewhere so I will pass that. |
| azerthoth Oct 01, 2009 11:00 AM EDT |
@Scott, looks like they have the bit in their teeth. They are only listening to other people to come up with point to refute or debate. |
| jdixon Oct 01, 2009 11:01 AM EDT |
> ...but if at all possible you should use the person's name. If you check, I believe you will find that historically, the use of Sir or Madam has been considered more polite than the use of a personal name. The use of a personal name is normally reserved for friends and acquaintances. And many times you have no way of knowing the name or gender of the person who will receive a letter. Especially in such a case, Dear Sir is perfectly appropriate. > He is promoting Linux, Ubuntu, and Canonical in other cultures, in which case he definitely does need to be sensitive to those cultures. Why? Why can't "those cultures" be sensitive to his? Unless you arguing that his promotion won't be effective unless he does, there's no reason he should. And while that may be true, he may not consider that a good enough reason. Lord knows RMS doesn't. > If you want to do business in the US, it's the US culture that matters ... I'm saying that if he wants to represent Linux to the world, he has to be sensitive to issues of culture. OK, so you are arguing for effectiveness. That's a valid argument, but not the way most people are framing the discussion. And again, Mark may not consider effectiveness in the US a good enough reason to change. That's his call to make, not ours. Our decision is whether or not to invite him to speak. |
| tuxchick Oct 01, 2009 11:05 AM EDT |
Quoting: Tracyanne is in a better position than either of us to know what Mark intended by his comments, bigg. If she doesn't think he intended to be offensive, then I'm willing to accept her word for it. If she's correct, what we have in this specific case is a culture conflict, not sexism, and there's no reason we should expect Mark to change to fit our culture. TA is Australian, Mark is from South Africa and now lives in London. He is a media-savvy world traveler and businessman who knows plenty about navigating various cultures. One thing is evident-- hardly anyone in this whole discussion actually watched Mark's keynote. Because if they had they would have caught the dissonance between his message, which emphasized collaboration, community, and removing the barriers to new contributors, and his actual word choices and dumb jokes. Remember, this is the 'humanity to others' guy, the guy who enters discussions to tell people to mind their manners. He knows better. It shouldn't have been any big deal. Some people spoke to him privately about it, such as Matt Zimmerman, and he blew them off. (Mark is Matt's boss.) Some people emailed him privately, and he blew them off. It leaked out into the internets; some of the people attending his keynote in person tweeted and IRCed and whatever it is people do these days, right there during his talk. A simple "You're right, I'm sorry, I'll fix it for next time' would have settled everything. But he chose not to do that. So OK, still not a big deal, just another sad entry in the 'same stuff different day' category. So who blew this up into a full-scale war? The same old FOSS mentality of circling the wagons against any criticism, shout down anyone who says things you don't want to hear, and never mess with the Gods of Linux. The same old worn-out denials. And the same old irritating habit of not even bothering to present informed opinions; I bet money that hardly any of his 'defenders' even watched the keynote, or have any idea of what he stands for, all the things he's been doing and talking about since he founded Canonical. It is truly amazing the contortions these stout defenders engage in to explain away everything. This one is my favorite: Quoting: I saw it live and it was nothing. Just an honest experience every guy in FOSS has had. It really is hard explaining FOSS work to females you meet and want to impress. I got a boatload of comments just like this. Like...ow. (Do I really need to explain this one? And I always wonder- females of what species?) So in a way, Mark's message did come through: FOSS is a man's world and this is good. No women, but admiring tech-dim girlfriends are welcome. Ok I guess that leaves the door open for lesbians. My other favorite is "He was talking to the guys in the room!" Well yeah, that's the whole point. He had a mixed audience in both his physical and worldwide virtual rooms. It’s too bad that none of the top FOSS leaders have the courage to confront this issue. Just imagine if Linus, RMS, or Mark said “This is not acceptable. Women deserve respect and courtesy, and everyone should be courteous and respectful to each other. A community where people feel uncomfortable or threatened is not a productive one.” (That last line is from the Ubuntu Code of Conduct.) I about died laughing imagining that happening, it is so improbable. What a sad commentary on FOSS. |
| jdixon Oct 01, 2009 11:17 AM EDT |
> ...even though I do not know of any definition of inference that says it has to be subjective... Why would they? Since it's an individual who must do the inferring, each individual will do so in a slightly different manner. That's the nature of subjectivity. > since your problem is with terminology maybe "deduction" will do better for you, so read "deduction" instead of "inference". It's still a personal deduction, which others may not share or agree with. Thus, subjective. > Because he should understand that there are many who have differing perceptions And they shouldn't understand his? > ...if one is lecturing in a different country then the speaker would be expected to not use humour which would be considered offensive in that country, If I'm invited to speak somewhere, I'd expect it to be because they consider my viewpoint of interest to them, not theirs to me. If they then find my viewpoint of way of expressing it offensive, then perhaps they shouldn't have invited me to speak. I'm not going to change just because any specific person finds my speech or mannerisms offensive. Mark may feel the same way. Now, as already noted, effectiveness is another matter, but that's Mark's call to make, not ours. I see TC still disagrees that it was a cultural matter rather than a sexist one. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this particular case TC. I'm willing to accept Tracyanne's call on the matter. If you're right and I'm wrong, then your points are valid, and I'm wrong. It's not like it'll be the first or last time. :) |
| bigg Oct 01, 2009 11:46 AM EDT |
> One thing is evident-- hardly anyone in this whole discussion actually watched Mark's keynote. I agree. There are a lot of emotional posts in this thread, but most of the knee-jerk, it's just a whiny girl variety. As I said above, I watched the video, and didn't see anything wrong with what you wrote. |
| Steven_Rosenber Oct 01, 2009 11:56 AM EDT |
Quoting:So my question is, is there anything positive that can be taken from these threads? And my challenge to all of you is, is there something worth keeping? There needs to be a real dialogue begun on this and I am not sure if this is it or not. Scott, I think the thread should remain. This is an important topic. There are without doubt many instances of sexism, racism and other derogatory actions in many parts of the tech world, not just FOSS. But in the FOSS world, we expect things to be better, more enlightened and more inclusive. And they should be. Yes, this is about attitude and perception. But it's also about hero worship, putting FOSS "rock stars" on a pedestal and thinking they can do no wrong, especially since what they're supposed to be doing — coding and supporting and promoting free, open-source software and liberating the world from dependence on a few companies and those companies' expensive, closed and proprietary offerings — is so important to this community and its members. I guess I'll have to watch this Shuttleworth keynote, at which time I'll probably have more to say, but from the tenor of the discussion above, I'll just say that if people are offended by what a particular person says, attention must be paid. Just because the speaker doesn't think he's out of line doesn't mean said speaker and the community around him shouldn't listen to and acknowledge the thoughts, feelings and perceptions of others. If Shuttleworth is belittling woman with his words, tone or context, or is perceived as such, he should clarify his remarks and issue an apology to those offended by those words. But the fact that he's Mark Shuttleworth, space traveler and richest man in FOSS, creator of the one distro to unite them all, is buying him a whole lot of defenders when, as I say here, he should be addressing this all too large elephant in the room. From what I see, and I could be way off the mark, one of the problems with the FOSS community is that it's extremely developer-centric. Yeah, there are those of us who don't code, who do everything from work on documentation, create and maintain packages (and Ubuntu is very big on packaging, which is still development, though not C and C++ hacking), to helping users who have questions and problems in forums, blogs and elsewhere, and work on the all-important but often ignored marketing and promotion of FOSS solutions. But it's still all about developers, most male by a very long, long shot. Not that there aren't female developers involved in FOSS, because there are, and there should be more. I'll talk about a project I know: OpenBSD. It's extremely developer-centric, and those who get involved in the community and are not developers pretty much know that they're along for the ride and won't have much say in anything. That's the way the project works, and nobody involved in it is trying to hide anything. The attitude is that if you don't like it, you're free to go elsewhere. And yes, everything Theo says is pretty much gospel and is taken as such. But in Linux in general and Ubuntu in particular, inclusion and promotion are key to c continued growth and adoption of the project. FOSS is very comfortable in the international arena. Just about all of the "big" projects have a community all around the world, in dozens of countries. And as a potentially inclusive force, FOSS should be reaching out and encouraging everybody to participate. And there should be major initiatives to bring in those who are under-represented in the FOSS world, and that includes women. So even if Mark Shuttleworth thinks he said nothing wrong, for the good of Ubuntu and FOSS he needs to get out there and lay down his cards. Here's the deal: While developers on all software might be overwhelmingly male, users of computers in general are not. Just about everybody uses a computer, and hence everybody can and should benefit from (and contribute to, if they can) free, open-source software. And we need to be better than the rest. In all ways. If FOSS were a true Shangri-La and absolutely nothing was wrong, this discussion wouldn't have hit the 100-post mark. Mark Shuttleworth is clearly a leader in this game. Time to do that. |
| tuxchick Oct 01, 2009 12:02 PM EDT |
Steven, Mark's keynote talks about the developer-centrism a lot. I think you will find it interesting and far-sighted. |
| theBeez Oct 01, 2009 1:14 PM EDT |
@Steven_Rosenberg
"I guess I'll have to watch this Shuttleworth keynote, at which time I'll probably have more to say, but from the tenor of the discussion above, I'll just say that if people are offended by what a particular person says, attention must be paid." I call in the ayatollah principle which says: "There's always someone that will be offended". If it's a minority: don't care. What everyone always seems to forget is that 98% of the audience IS male and anyone who has given a presentation knows you will always go for that audience. I happen to be lost in a convention of little people, a convention of feminists or anything else, I will find that speakers will not take any notice of me. Some women understand this, I even quoted them. They don't find it offensive for the simple reasons I just quoted. Note that most women there (when I'm correctly informed Carla included) never wrote a line for any project. So, they're out of the equation. If women want to change things they have to do what FOSS does best: code. No one is gonna change that but women themselves. The (unproved) reason they give for NOT coding is: there is sexism. Unfortunately, it will be very unlikely that solving this issue will solve the ratio issue. So we're back to square one. In the meanwhile we've given FOSS a bad name, tarnished all our community leaders, fired a few good developers and FOR WHAT?? |
| flufferbeer Oct 01, 2009 1:17 PM EDT |
For some reason, when I keep seeing accusations here about "Just what exactly DID Mark Shuttleworth say and mean?", I keep thinking about the "He-said-she-said" talk among African American children. There was even a book written about this kind of talk written by an M.H. Godwin (think that's her name) about twenty years ago entitled _He-said-she-said : talk as social organization among Black children_ Forget any racism-in-FOSS accusations in metioning this -- although as Steven_Rosenber mentioned, racism could ALSO really exist in the FOSS world. This "He-said-she-said" talk -- after factoring out all the street-level slang and jargon -- mostly seems to be jabbing back-and-forth, accusations and counteraccusations, blowing things way up and then tryin to settle things down. One of my main points here is that "He-said-she-said" talk is done face-to-face, though, not slung from afar by IM'ing or on an online forum like this. @tuxchick, I strongly doubt that you'll go out of your way anytime soon to meet directly face-to-face with Mark Shuttleworth and accost him with your and others' interpretations of his remarks... so we'll have to settle with this indirect "He-said-she-said" talk. (and FWIW, my 2c is that I think wolfen69's starting this whole thread was ENTIRELY called-for) fb |
| chalbersma Oct 01, 2009 1:24 PM EDT |
dood this thread is beastly! look how long it is man... |
| krisum Oct 01, 2009 1:30 PM EDT |
@jdixon > It's still a personal deduction, which others may not share or agree with. Thus, subjective. That only holds *if* you can show there was an element of subjectivity in the deduction/inference -- the many streams of logic are mostly based on objective deductions. > And they shouldn't understand his? That's an interesting thing to say. A speaker is normally the one who would be expected to understand the sensitivities of the audience and not the other way for the simple reason that the speaker is the one who is conveying a message. > I'm not going to change just because any specific person finds my speech or mannerisms offensive. Mark may feel the same way. > Now, as already noted, effectiveness is another matter, but that's Mark's call to make, not ours. Fine, if you want to put it that way. In either case one would have hoped that Mark would have liked to be effective (and thus not make significant sections left out or apologize if such has happened). |
| Steven_Rosenber Oct 01, 2009 1:40 PM EDT |
OK people, I watched the speech here http://techcast.com/events/linuxcon/shuttleworth/ I'm an American, and yes, in this country a group of people is often referred to as "guys," as in "you guys," when it includes both men and women. And yes, he was going for the laugh at a conference with a lot of hard-core geeks, mostly men, with the "explaining to girls" comment/joke. I think all of us who use FOSS know that it's not "girls" who don't know what Linux and other free software is all about. It's pretty much everybody — men and women of all backgrounds, in all countries — who haven't a clue about what we're doing. He did say "people" instead of "guys" at one point, and he used "guy or girl" at another (albeit in a slightly negative context about "trampling on" one's project). And in the speech it's always a grandma who needs her geeky grandchild to set up a PC for her that just works. Presumably all grandfathers know how to maintain their own Unix boxes. I see an unfortunate choice of words here. A change in attitude and language would only help Shuttleworth further his cause. Yeah, I get that he feels he has to win over a predominantly male group of developers, but there's the rest of us out there who aren't comfortable with this sort of thing. And the way he says design and usability are so important (and I wholeheartedly agree), he should also acknowledge that perception in the overall community — as well as outside the community to potential users and participants — is equally important, especially on a project with the ambitions and resources of Ubuntu. I've seen Canonical's Jono Bacon speak a few times, and there's nothing belittling or derogatory in what he's said. And since I've been looking at the latest blog posts on this controversy, I've seen more than a few individuals and groups that are very supportive of women working on and with FOSS. We need more of that. I haven't seen any reaction from Shuttleworth (his blog http://www.markshuttleworth.com/ has been dead since April). Saying "somebody's always offended" is no cover here, in my opinion. As the face of what is probably the biggest Linux distribution at this time, the community deserves better from Shuttleworth. |
| beirwin Oct 01, 2009 2:06 PM EDT |
@Steve_Rosenberg Well-said, Steve. Thanks for a thoughtful post on this hot-button (sadly) issue. Being polite, respectful, and helpful is all it takes to make the FOSS community welcoming and inclusive. Simple isn't it? Barbara |
| tracyanne Oct 01, 2009 6:22 PM EDT |
Just in case I missed something, I sat down with my partner, and went through the video again. Keeping her awake was a bit of a problem. At the end she asked me "Is this what all this arguing is about?" "Yes", I said. "How childish, don't they have anything better to do with their time." was her response, with that she got up and went out to feed the chooks. And that, Ladies and Gentlemen is my lat word on the subject. Personally I'm thoroughly disgusted with the whole ravenous pack of you. |
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