In Response to: Sexism is Alive and Well in Linux/FOSS
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| klhrevolution Sep 16, 2009 5:26 PM EDT |
I'm reading this article over at LinuxPlanet.com and they really outdid themselves this time. They chose a great opinionated topic to draw attention to their site I'll give them that much. I'm going to pick through this article bit by bit and give my thoughts and opinion. Hopefully, if anything it gives a broader view of the real issue. I cannot recall that I've read anything by the author of the article 'Sexism is Alive and Well in Linux/FOSS' but it is possible that I have so I have nothing against this fella personally. I see the authors opening as a direct attack on Richard Stallman who by anybodies standard is open for duck season. To insist that gnome and the fsf are holding this summit because of goofy old Stallman is assasine because as we continue to read the author points out that this is not so. A cheap shot if ever there was one. Systemic... There are many systemic issues that exists especially within the "Linux/Foss" arena. Note to self: never use 'Gnu' again and remember to replace with 'FOSS'. I guess the only issues that really matter are the ones with groups of people behind them with an agenda. The article takes a dive into cynicism which is why I too also provide such gestures. Do not be so judging reader as I am not the one challenging your intelligence. On the contrary it is the author who points out by way of a third party ie Eric Raymond that "Hackerdom readily grants full human rights to future AI programs, robots, dolphins, and extraterrestrial aliens, mere color and gender can't seem very important any more." I can vouch for this as well to an extent in that not once in an irc, forum or mailing list have I encountered anyone give the old fashioned "asl". That is not to say that sexism as it is termed does not occur. The mere fact that this is pointed out for you & I is so that you know up front that sexism is really not the issue or agenda. As we continue to read we find out that women are more likely to participate in the development of proprietary software development than in open source development. So as I said above the old bait and switch has occurred because now the issue is how to draw women to open source development but that's not all. No, the author points out how so few women sit on the boards of 'FOSS' projects. Now it is howto draw women into open source development as well as gaining membership amongst the 'FOSS' boards. After pointing out all of these things the author then wants you to feel guilty and that you are somehow responsible as we read: "Or, if you prefer, listen to the horror stories female developers tell about sexist remarks or being asked out for dates. Look at the constant trolls on the mailing lists for female developers." "Or notice how raising the issue inevitably brings accusations of exaggeration and political correctness. Despite the obviousness of the evidence, many people would prefer to pretend that the problem doesn't exist except in the minds of a few feminist radicals. And, while everyone is in denial, the FOSS community loses female -- and male -- developers when it needs every possible volunteer." So far we have had a 'bait & switch' and a 'guilt trip' laid upon us. What pray tell does the author offer as a solution ? Now if you clicked page two you were expecting solutions but as we see the author is not done bashing. And the second half of his article is not solution but rather bashing. Well, when you are pushing an agenda you must use all tactics to the extreme. Anyway the author points out how websites devoted to women for open source development exists yet they draw little to no attention. Then with his big whine gun he shoots us: "Or if women's mentoring programs were established that both brought individual women along and actively recruited them to act in the mainstream of projects?" The only real solution to this fellas article other than his wanting to do away with individuality. That's exactly what zero tolerance is. I could not agree more that those who partake in sexist acts as well as other wedge driving issues should be stripped of rank and have to work their way back up. Let us learn from our mistakes before giving up on people, giving up on someone should be the last resort. This is open source not a government mandated job. The people who participate are doing so for many reasons but it is their time and resource that they offer. And to kick out those that are actually contributing because they have offended somebody who does not contribute is a no-brainer. Don't let those who do not contribute and have an agenda drive a wedge. And do not let those with offensive remarks and high rank get special favor and avoid demotion. I could not agree more with the fellow in the sense that people should do away with the wedge driving women projects that draw little to no attention and offer such things as mentoring programs as mentioned instead, but then that really is sub-grouping. So the logical solution then is for those women to participate as much as the board members have and are if they wish to have such success. Call me stupid but I have a hard time considering that the reason women do not have membership at the board or power and control in a project is due to sexism. That boat is not sailing for me. However, if that is a reality then let's not run in a circle about it but rather call out the project leader's involved. Let's not tarnish the gnu/linux projects as a whole instead the individual. If the author is more than kind enough to open this article throwing a cheap shot at Stallman than surely he has no problem in calling out these individuals who have blocked a female from gaining her proper role. The real solution that the author slyly hides is that he wishes for minority groups to have a voice bigger than those who are doing the majority of the contributed labor. Which would mean that we would have software that functions like government. If you can read part two of his article and walk away thinking differently then something is seriously wrong. "What would happen if the women's groups became part of the power structure of projects, instead of being primarily self-referencing sub-groups? Or if women's mentoring programs were established that both brought individual women along and actively recruited them to act in the mainstream of projects ?" Now I'm no expert but I'm pretty sure that if you read that quote your gonna wonder if the author himself even knows what he means. It sure looks like he dismisses his very own solution and yet that's really not a solution but rather a question upon a question. If gnome & the fsf wishes to reach out to minority groups to encourage them so be it I wish them the best, if their goal is to give power and control to those who do not deserve it that would be an issue. Gnu/Linux is growing expect a punch or a wedge to be thrown from time to time. Don't let these ____ divide and conquer. |
| caitlyn Sep 16, 2009 5:39 PM EDT |
An amazingly clueless response to an article I found to be spot on. This is a wonderful example of blaming the victims. When I worked for Lockheed-Martin, a company that has no tolerance for sexism or racism or religious intolerance or other such forms of prejudice the extremely large systems administration team supporting the government agency I supported was 40% female. When I worked in places where sexism and other forms of prejudice were laughed off or tolerated or dismissed the number was much, much smaller. In one case where an overtly sexist male was promoted into a leadership position all the women on the team (five of us) gave notice and left within two or three weeks. Management had their excuses but did nothing to stop it. There is an old Yiddish expression: "A fish rots from the head." If the culture and the leadership insists on equality and doesn't tolerate discrimination it is absolutely amazing what can be achieved. If the culture is about maintaining the status quo and protecting "those who contribute", who, of course, are the only people permitted to contribute in a comfortable environment, then the results are quite the opposite. |
| klhrevolution Sep 16, 2009 5:53 PM EDT |
I don't see any victims to blame nor where I blamed such victims. And secondly this is not a government job nor private sector job. I've always enjoyed your contributions Caitlyn and hope that my opinion does not ruin any future encounters. |
| tuxchick Sep 16, 2009 6:18 PM EDT |
klhrevolution, you did a world-class job of reading everything in the world into the article except what it was about. Bruce has done a brave thing by writing this piece, because anyone who has ever spoken up knows from experience all the knee-jerk denials and attacks that result from speaking out. I guess the truth is too painful to face for some folks. |
| tracyanne Sep 16, 2009 6:49 PM EDT |
I'm willing to bet, cynic that I am, that there will be a lot talk, but in the end nothing will change. In part nothing will change because, women won't be a major part of the FOSS community until women take the initiative and become part of the community, wanted or not. It's bit like the "take back the streets" initiative that many of us got involved in in the 90s, you take back the streets by taking them back, not by waiting for some bloke to make it nice and safe for you. Same applies here. |
| caitlyn Sep 16, 2009 7:10 PM EDT |
I agree with both tuxchick and tracyanne here. klhrevolution: Women who are mistreated by, excluded from, or driven out of the Open Source community are the victims of sexism here, so yes, there are indeed victims. I would also dare say that excluding nearly 50% of the human race means that FOSS suffers as well. It doesn't matter if employment is involved or what type. In the examples I gave Lockheed-Martin had a much higher quality workforce. They had the best people. It didn't matter where their ancestors were from or what color their skin was or what their gender was. Amazingly enough, even those who were part of the dominant paradigm if you will (white males) were higher quality people that the same dominant paradigm where intolerance was the norm. Inclusion seems to attract quality people of all types. |
| softwarejanitor Sep 16, 2009 7:43 PM EDT |
@caitlyn Actually I believe that women are over 50% of the worlds population, largely because the average lifespan of women is higher than that of men. |
| caitlyn Sep 16, 2009 8:18 PM EDT |
Women are 51% of the population. However there are women in FOSS who, despite the conditions in the community, who are not excluded. |
| klhrevolution Sep 16, 2009 8:24 PM EDT |
tuxchick: I did not deny the existence of the issue. I openly call for the author to speak out against such leaders and that might be a risk he is not willing to take I will certainly understand if he does not. tracyanne: "take back the streets by taking them back, not by waiting for some bloke to make it nice and safe for you." |
| klhrevolution Sep 16, 2009 8:27 PM EDT |
caitlyn: You speak for hidden people. If the problem is so bad then the best thing is for people to start speaking out which can be done anonymously if need be. The issue cannot be addressed by calling out a problem that no one is aware of, but, that we "dominant white males" do not deny exists. I'll be the second if the author is the first to offer a helping hand. By the way some "dominant white males" might be offended by such talk including me however I don't wish for you to be zero toleranced out of the gnu/linux related world. You speak of fairness and tolerance but that comment is not necessary to prove your point. |
| dinotrac Sep 16, 2009 9:09 PM EDT |
I don't know if women are the victims of sexism per se, or if sexist behavior is simply the manifestation of a greater sociapathic impulse. Not that it matters, but, as the KDE has demonstrated over the last year, and any number of other developers on any number of projects, many FOSS developers -- can't speak to proprietary because they're not so public -- are not exactly socially acceptable human beings. I wonder if Hans Reiser is an exception to the norm or its logical conclusion. |
| gus3 Sep 16, 2009 9:15 PM EDT |
Quoting:You speak for hidden people. If the problem is so bad then the best thing is for people to start speaking out which can be done anonymously if need be.That's not possible at a conference/expo. The instant a woman (or a man) speaks out against a presenter's sexist attitude, it's up on YouTube. Bye bye, anonymity. |
| nanday Sep 16, 2009 10:01 PM EDT |
"I see the authors opening as a direct attack on Richard Stallman who by anybodies standard is open for duck season. To insist that gnome and the fsf are holding this summit because of goofy old Stallman is assasine because as we continue to read the author points out that this is not so." How is it an attack to report what actually happened? RMS did make a sexist remark, and he was widely attacked for it. Given the timing of the summit's announcement -- about a month after the incident -- the idea that it is an effort to mend fences seems likely, especially since neither GNOME nor the FSF has shown much interest in the topic before. I didn't have room for the comment in the article, but if the summit really is an attempt to patch things up after the incident, I think it's a a brilliant idea, and both the FSF and GNOME deserve to be recognized for their creative diplomacy. - Bruce Byfield (nanday) |
| tuxchick Sep 16, 2009 10:07 PM EDT |
Hi Bruce! **wave wave** You must tell me where you shop for your flameproof britches :) --IRL Carla Schroder |
| caitlyn Sep 16, 2009 10:08 PM EDT |
Try speaking out about sexism in the workplace. I've tried it. In way too many places the one who speaks out is spoken to condescendingly and the systematically pressured to leave for good. After all, that's the person who doesn't fit into the team, right? During an economic downturn "fitting into the team" is often a criteria used to select between a large number of qualified candidates. Sorry if this offends you but... human nature is to hire more people like you already have. Minorities, women and older workers all get excluded this way in IT. Young white males get hired. You can't prove the discrimination is there but it is. It's often been said that for a woman or a minority to get in the door in the first place they have to be twice as good as anyone else. That's during good times. In my experience there is a lot of truth in that. Quoting:that we "dominant white males" do not deny exists. Really? I can provide links to all my past article on sexism and show you comments by one man after another denying that the problem exists. It happens all the time. It's the most common comment, followed by the ones telling women to grow a tougher skin and just put up with it. I'm not sure what planet you live on if you think that men don't deny sexism. Quoting:By the way some "dominant white males" might be offended by such talk i That is the consequence of speaking out, something you yourself encouraged me to do. The truth hurts sometimes. |
| caitlyn Sep 16, 2009 10:11 PM EDT |
Quoting:How is it an attack to report what actually happened? RMS did make a sexist remark, and he was widely attacked for it. Yep, but there is no way any man would deny that. I know this because klhrevolution told me so. Seriously, thank you for an excellent article. When more men in the FOSS community come to realize what you already know and are willing to speak out about it the way you have things really will begin to get better. |
| klhrevolution Sep 17, 2009 12:31 AM EDT |
gus3: At conference or expo it might not be possible but obviously there are other avenues to explore. |
| klhrevolution Sep 17, 2009 12:33 AM EDT |
Lxer.com I get the message. No need to limit the amount of characters I can use in my message. There are other outlets thankfully. |
| caitlyn Sep 17, 2009 1:51 AM EDT |
So... if we disagree with you then you are unwelcome? Gee... now you know how women feel in most Linux and FOSS forums... unwelcome. The plain fact is that you posted something highly controversial. You had to know that. You had to know that controversy and conflicting opinions would be a result. |
| dinotrac Sep 17, 2009 6:39 AM EDT |
>So... if we disagree with you then you are unwelcome? That does seem to be the theme here lately, at least if you phrase it properly: You are unwelcome if we disagree with you. |
| hkwint Sep 17, 2009 6:50 AM EDT |
That's rule 1 when you're new to a forum, I guess: Never disagree with the most vocal ones - unless you're ready to "take back the streets". |
| tuxchick Sep 17, 2009 9:58 AM EDT |
eh? Am I missing a bit of sarcasm here? We're supposed to agree with new visitors so they will feel welcome? |
| tracyanne Sep 17, 2009 9:59 AM EDT |
And I always thought new visitors were fresh flame bait. Damn. |
| TxtEdMacs Sep 17, 2009 11:20 AM EDT |
tcQuoting: ...tell me where you shop for your flameproof britches ...I am sorely disappointed, I thought you took the heat without recourse to such needless novelties. Have you forgotten the credo: "Give'em Hell!". The only thing that would be more devastating would to meet you in the Depends asile. Be brave and fight on!! YBT |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 17, 2009 1:44 PM EDT |
> So... if we disagree with you then you are unwelcome? Yes. I speak from experience. "Minority" does not mean just chromosome or melanin content. It certainly also means having an opinion not shared by many others. > Am I missing a bit of sarcasm here? We're supposed to agree with new visitors so they will feel welcome? TC, isn't this all about making people feel welcome? Isn't picking and choosing who to make feel welcome just more exclusion? |
| caitlyn Sep 17, 2009 1:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:Yes. I speak from experience. Perhaps you felt unwelcome because you chose to dominate conversations and post long political diatribe. It's not that differing opinions are unwelcome here. They are welcome. Political debate and discourse violate the TOS and are unwelcome regardless of viewpoint. Stop playing the poor persecuted soul. It doesn't fit your circumstances at all. Quoting:Isn't picking and choosing who to make feel welcome just more exclusion? Making people feel welcome doesn't mean agreeing with everything they say. I can disagree strongly with an opinion without being hostile to the person or dismissing them due to characteristics that have nothing to do with what they are saying or what value they add to the conversation. |
| azerthoth Sep 17, 2009 2:26 PM EDT |
yup, time to stop following this thread too. *edit* caitlyn, it appears you cant restist the argument even when its not relevant. There was no call for your post to bob or for you to go on the attack. If this thread goes down that road again, I would like to go on record that it was you not he that was the instigator this time. */edit* |
| justintime Sep 17, 2009 3:03 PM EDT |
I'm a white male and I can see that there is a lot of sexism out there in FLOSS. I've worked for a proprietary software company and 2 FLOSS software companies. At the proprietary software company, of the developers there were probably 30-40% women (out of 400ish), at the FLOSS companies (combined) there were 2 (not 2%, just 2) out of 300ish. That's a pretty drastic difference. As far as Lockheed Martin, yea, that was a great place to work when I was an intern - probably should have gone back there after finishing college. Oh well. |
| hkwint Sep 17, 2009 7:04 PM EDT |
Quoting:eh? Am I missing a bit of sarcasm here? We're supposed to agree with new visitors so they will feel welcome? Yes, you're missing a fair bit, but it's not sarcasm. Or maybe it is. I'm undecided. Anyway, let me try to help you: Quoting:3.8. Do act friendly ...Women new to a group often want the same things men want - we want to feel welcomed, we want to talk about subjects of mutual interest, we want to make friends. I suppose you're familiar with the source. If not: Val Henson, linked by Bruce (that's how I found it). If that's the way we ought to treat women in FOSS, don't you think it's also the way to treat new people at LXer? I'm pretty sure the last line of 3.23 could be a 'he' as well. |
| caitlyn Sep 17, 2009 7:25 PM EDT |
Quoting:If that's the way we ought to treat women in FOSS, don't you think it's also the way to treat new people at LXer? Absolutely. |
| hkwint Sep 17, 2009 7:29 PM EDT |
I'd like to add agreeing is not necessary, probably there's some way to make them feel welcome even when disagreeing. |
| theboomboomcars Sep 17, 2009 7:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:No need to limit the amount of characters I can use in my message. From this quote it almost seems like his last post was limited in some way, and he took that as an attack. |
| azerthoth Sep 17, 2009 8:33 PM EDT |
As he should, the more he types the more he convinces me that he has finished with himself, his dog, and his family, and is in the process of wrapping his house in tin foil. |
| caitlyn Sep 17, 2009 8:33 PM EDT |
@theboomboomcars: I may have disagreed with him but I certainly hope he wasn't censored in some way. AFAIK that rarely if ever happens here. |
| theboomboomcars Sep 17, 2009 8:42 PM EDT |
caitlyn I agree, and if his post was being chopped it was probably a bug somewhere and not some sort of censorship... But I could be wrong, I am not dino after all. |
| jdixon Sep 18, 2009 1:54 PM EDT |
> Perhaps you felt unwelcome because you chose to dominate conversations and post long political diatribe. Pot, meet kettle. Though I agree that Bob's diatribes tend to be longer than yours. And yes, I'm also a occasional offender. |
| hkwint Sep 18, 2009 8:56 PM EDT |
Quoting:Lxer.com I get the message. No need to limit the amount of characters I can use in my message. You're welcome to submit your 'message' as an article, as you'll probably know. As long as it doesn't violate TOS and is about FOSS I'm rather sure it will be published. |
| Scott_Ruecker Sep 18, 2009 10:12 PM EDT |
@theboomboomcars; As far as I know there is no limit to the size a post can be, if it is getting truncated or deleted, it is not by us I swear. If I moderate a particular post I always let the poster know, that is my policy. Hans is right in that if you want to submit it as an article and it is FOSS related and does not violate the TOS, it will get published. If it keeps getting lost write it up in Writer and send it to me and I will get it onto LXer for you. I also would like to publicly state that since I took over as E-i-C I have done my best to ensure that LXer is a place where sexism is not allowed or tolerated in any form. As the son of a single mother living in the midwest in the mid 70's I have seen sexism in all its grotesque glory too many times to count. I swore as a child that I would never to be like that. I brought the issue of Women being under represented up to several of the women speakers at the last SCaLE conference and was going to write up an article about it, but only weeks later my Mother suffered a catastrophic stroke and much of my free time for several months was taken up in the course of getting her affairs in order. Now most of my free time is taken up in trying to find a fulltime 'day' job unfortunately. It seems that maybe I should try and write that article again because what we need now is a 'call to action' of sorts. I just need to figure out how to approach it. |
| tuxchick Sep 18, 2009 10:50 PM EDT |
Augh, Scott, I'm sorry to hear about your mother. I don't recall if you mentioned it before, and if I space-cased it I'm sorry. I hope things are getting better. |
| caitlyn Sep 18, 2009 11:49 PM EDT |
@Scott: Thank you for clarifying that no deliberate censorship took place. I may disagree with klhrevolution but I will defend his right to voice his opinion which is clearly on topic and relevant to the article. Let me also say that you and your team of editors have done an excellent job of making LXer.com open and welcoming to women and minorities. tuxchick, tracyanne, berwein, myself and others probably stick around precisely because we know we can discuss issues related to FOSS openly and freely here and that our voices are welcome. Thank you, Scott, and thanks to everyone else involved in LXer.com. |
| caitlyn Sep 18, 2009 11:54 PM EDT |
Quoting:Pot, meet kettle. Though I agree that Bob's diatribes tend to be longer than yours. And yes, I'm also a occasional offender. @jdixon: There was a very brief period where I responded to Bob and libervis and one or two others in kind. I did so deliberately to make a point. The LXer editors, IMHO, took appropriate action. Since then I have been more than careful not to post off-topic political anything and I believe I've pretty well stuck to that. So... your pot meet kettle is, IMHO, inaccurate or at least no longer accurate. Regarding your own peccadilloes, they have, as you say, been occasional and relatively mild. My complaint is with a very small group of people who don't ever stop and don't want to or are unable to exercise good judgment when it comes to deciding what is on-topic and relevant and what is going off into flagrantly political tangents. You are not and have never been part of that group. While we may not always agree you have certainly earned my respect. |
| theboomboomcars Sep 19, 2009 12:02 AM EDT |
Thank you Scott, I didn't think that the moderators would be limiting the post length, it's nice to get the word from the person who would be doing the moderation. |
| klhrevolution Sep 19, 2009 2:42 PM EDT |
Yes, either way matters none. I already said what I had to say mostly. What I really wanted to reply was this: The first comment of tracyanne has the best attitude out of the bunch. Thanks Scott! |
| tuxchick Sep 19, 2009 3:31 PM EDT |
Well klhrevolution, taken at face value it absolves men of any responsibility, which may not be TA's intent since she tends to write short posts and doesn't spell everything out. It also does not acknowledge all the effort and hard work that have already gone into achieving the gains we enjoy now by both women and men. This isn't something that just suddenly happened-- it's been a problem since the beginning of FOSS, and there have been ongoing efforts to raise awareness and make things better. Progress doesn't happen from pretending problems don't exist, or that they do exist but are incurable, which are opposing views that some folks have an amazing ability to hold at the same time. |
| tracyanne Sep 19, 2009 7:29 PM EDT |
Well no, I wasn't absolving anyone. We all have our part(s) to play in improving matters, and have all played our part(s) in getting to where we are. And for all I know, the Beeze may have a good point. What I do know is that for me, when I discovered Computers and programming, it was like coming home, it was like finding a water hole in the desert, it was like finding myself, like a religious experience. I knew this was where i wanted to be, that up until then my life had been a series if misdirections. I knew I'd found my passion, and no one was going to stop me, whether I was good at it or not. Now from personal experience. I haven't come across many young people who seem to have a passion for software.... Games yes, software no. I know one family, friends of ours where the boy may discover sufficient interest in computers, and software, to overcome his ADHD/Aspsergers personality to become a computer/software wizz. I suspect their daughter isn't that interested, even though she has me for a role model, and I set her up with a computer initially, and I suspect I'm more of a role model for the boy, because we share similar ADHD/Aspergers type personalities. I've worked in a lot of commercial development houses, and women were always in the minority, not as small a minority as FOSS seems to be, but always significantly a minority, and significantly the numbers who were programmers was even smaller. In many cases women tended towards "people" type jobs project management, for example. And most, who were, aspired not to be programmers. I remember my last contract, probably 5% of the software development departments would have been women, and one young woman, a recent graduate, seemed so lacking in personal confidence, I'm surprised she managed to graduate. She certainly had the ability, and I encouraged her as much as I could, and there was certainly no discrimination. I suspect that unless she learns to believe in herself, she will not do well, and may end up leaving software development all together. Maybe the problem is nature, maybe it's nurture, maybe it's a combination of both, I don't know and I hate speculation, and my perspective is going to be widely different than almost anyone's. I was an outsider looking in when I was growing up, and I discovered that I was an outsider looking in on other outsiders that I should nominally consider myself as belonging with. So for me what it looks like is this. 1/ Women aren't major contributors to FOSS project because in general woemn don't have sufficient interest in software development, this is reflected by the fact that women make up a small percentage of the IT workforce anyway. 2/ In general women who may be interested in contributing to FOSS projects tend to have many more things that require their time and energy that come way before FOSS. contributions. 3/ A significant percentage of those would be contributors are put off by by blokey talk. |
| tuxchick Sep 19, 2009 8:13 PM EDT |
TA, the number for FOSS is about 1.5%, and for the proprietary market about 28%. Even if a person doesn't want to believe what real women say about their real experiences, those numbers should have people wondering, instead of denying with all of their strength that there might be a problem. There are more paying jobs in the proprietary world, but there are also lots of them for FOSS development, support, and deployments, so even if women are less able to volunteer it shouldn't add up to such a large difference. That's just the numbers; when people listen to actual women a very vivid picture emerges of women getting treated poorly just because they are women. Now where do you think people are going to invest their time and energies, where they are treated like meat, or where it's enjoyable? Hello, duh? Yeah I know, you have rhino hide and aren't bothered-- it's not that way for other women (or men either), and I find that the folks who think FOSS needs to be some sort of hostile meat grinder are seriously weird. |
| tracyanne Sep 19, 2009 8:30 PM EDT |
The Rhino hide is an after market accessory. As I said we all have our part to play, but you don't get meat grinders dismantled by leaving it to those who see no problem with it to do the job. You get the meat grinder dismantled by joining the dismantling team. So untill enough people are willing to join the dismantling team the meat grinder will grind away. So, the question becomes, in my mind, anyway. How does one get those who feel disenfranchised to become part of the solution? |
| tuxchick Sep 19, 2009 8:46 PM EDT |
Oh, and I think it's worth pointing out that writing editorials like this falls under the category of "women doing something about it." |
| jdixon Sep 19, 2009 9:27 PM EDT |
> Since then I have been more than careful not to post off-topic political anything and I believe I've pretty well stuck to that. So... your pot meet kettle is, IMHO, inaccurate or at least no longer accurate.Since then I have been more than careful not to post off-topic political anything and I believe I've pretty well stuck to that. So... your pot meet kettle is, IMHO, inaccurate or at least no longer accurate. You've certainly cut back considerably, but I don't believe completely. However, all of us allow our personal viewpoints to influence our comments, often in way we don't even realize, so it's probably not deliberate at this point. Consider my statement rescinded. > Regarding your own peccadilloes, they have, as you say, been occasional and relatively mild. I can think of at least once when they weren't, but then neither were yours. :) I do try to keep any politically related comments to the topic at hand and factual in nature. How well I succeed is debatable. > While we may not always agree you have certainly earned my respect. Many thanks. I'll do my best to deserve it. |
| tracyanne Sep 20, 2009 12:59 AM EDT |
But TC, that wasn't my question. I know you are doing something about it. The problem is, if what you are saying about other women and FOSS is correct (and I didn't say that to doubt you, but to parenthesis the following), then they are not going to do anything about it, because they have already turned away from involvement with FOSS, because of the very things you are stating as being the problem. So the question is given that they are disenfranchised, or, at least, feel disenfranchised. How does one get them back. At the moment, to me, it looks like a chicken and egg issue. Women, in general, won't get involved in FOSS because they feel disenfranchised, but until more women do become more involved, I can't see it changing. So, given that there are apparently so many in FOSS, the majority, I'm given to believe, that do not see a problem, and so are not going to do anything to fix it, or change, how do you propose the situation be fixed. Since those who don't see that there is a problem are not about to change on your, or anyone else's, say so, and those who see FOSS as uninviting aren't about to get involved. |
| tuxchick Sep 20, 2009 1:55 PM EDT |
TA, part 2 this friday talks about what to do. Role models and encouragement are the basic tactics; for example groups like Ubuntu Women and Debian Women help new women contributors get over the initial hurdles and provide ongoing support. Two things we have learned at Linuxchix that make a big difference: showing that "you are not alone", and providing visible role models. Feeling alone and isolated is probably the biggest deterrent. The FLOSSPOLs study was in 2004, and I suspect that thanks to Ubuntu there is increased women participation. The real solution is very simple: people shouldn't be asshats to each other, and should understand the difference between professional and private behaviors. Of course description is always easier than implementation :) Valerie Aurora said something once along the lines of "It is perfectly legitimate to expect people to change how they behave towards you." I don't know why some folks think this doesn't apply to women, and we have to take whatever crud is dished out. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 20, 2009 2:50 PM EDT |
> "It is perfectly legitimate to expect people to change how they behave towards you." Rather, it is perfectly legitimate to expect people to behave decently. If they don't, then don't associate with them. I've found that trying to change other people to fit my preferences is futile, at best. Life isn't fair. So be fair, and deal only with people who also deal fairly. > I don't know why some folks think this doesn't apply to women, and we have to take whatever crud is dished out. As if only women get crud flung at them? I've met a lot of women who themselves are very good at slinging crud, but because they're women I'm expected to "take whatever crud is dished out." Take it like a man, I'm told. My only objection is to individuals (male, female, green, whatever) who think that: 1) everyone has to take their crud just because they're (male, female, green). or 2) life is so unfair just because they're (male, female, green, whatever). The worst are those who declare endlessly just how unfair their life is, and how awful everyone else is, and how everyone has to take whatever crud they fling. The combination platter, 1 and 2. Bullies, for short, male, female, green, whatever. I don't expect them to change to suit my preferences, I just let them go down their own self-destructive paths. |
| azerthoth Sep 20, 2009 2:51 PM EDT |
TC its a good quote, especially when it can be used in either direction in the discussion. To be honest, the only person that anyone has control of is themselves, either in their thoughts and actions or their associations. I choose not to associate with people who see prejudice in any form as a logical thought process, that I have offended a few people by calling them bigots and walking away is a given, but the offense was theirs to take or leave. In other words, you find someone offensive and you can make them leave, do so. If you cant make the other person leave, then you leave. Dont insist that they change .. you dont have that right. There is never the option to not leaving the offensive person, but enforcing your world view upon them is just the same as them forcing their opinions on you ... and just as offensive. |
| tracyanne Sep 20, 2009 5:13 PM EDT |
Quoting:Valerie Aurora said something once along the lines of "It is perfectly legitimate to expect people to change how they behave towards you." I don't know why some folks think this doesn't apply to women, and we have to take whatever crud is dished out. This is a sentiment I agree with. What I'm not sure about is, how what is apparently the majority of FOSS can be expected to change if women never participate as part of the main stream but instead create women only ghettos. |
| jdixon Sep 20, 2009 7:37 PM EDT |
> "It is perfectly legitimate to expect people to change how they behave towards you." Perfectly legitimate, yes. Effective, probably not. People don't tend to change just because someone they hardly know thinks they should. Someone they know and respect is another matter. |
| tuxchick Sep 20, 2009 7:38 PM EDT |
TA, if you're referring to Ubuntu Women, Debian Women, and similar projects as women-only ghettos you are misunderstanding. They're help and support, not 'ghettos'. |
| tracyanne Sep 20, 2009 10:32 PM EDT |
But in what way do they change what is apparently the dominant metric? If there is indeed rampant sexism in FOSS, as is apparently the case, then the groups like Ubuntu Women, Debian Women don't seem to be changing that. Because we seems to get a lot of rhetoric about sexism and changing it, but nothing seems, apparently, to change, as just as the last lot of rhetoric and noise about sexism dies down another lot rears it head, and the arguments start again. And if as Hans Beezmer says, there isn't any then there really isn't any need for the Women only groups. So from where I'm sitting, such groups look more like self imposed ghettos, that are ineffective at changing what is apparently the status quo. And to be honest I haven't come across anything that I would flag as sexist. Now that may be the Rhino hide you refer to, and that may actually be the case, because my response would be to tell the perpetrator to go dip his right eye in cocky cack and then promptly forget about it. |
| tuxchick Sep 20, 2009 11:16 PM EDT |
Sigh. TA, if you want to throw up your hands and call it hopeless, be my guest. |
| tracyanne Sep 21, 2009 12:12 AM EDT |
Carla. I'm not calling anything hopeless. I'm merely stating what I see. Given that the issue of sexism keeps on being brought up, is argued over with intractable, so it seems, sides shouting 'I'm right you're Wrong" on a seemingly regular basis, with apparently no change at all in the General culture. I just don't see how women only groups are contributing to change in the general culture, or indeed given history, how they are going to. Edit, removedi as it confuses my point |
| tracyanne Sep 21, 2009 6:31 AM EDT |
I remember several times over the years that sexism in FOSS has been brought up. On several occasions it was argued that Women only groups would raise the stanard of personal interaction in FOSS communities, and I've seen several groups form, and I'm even a member of One or two, LinuxChix, and I think the Aussie chapter, I get emails from LinuxChix Aus anyway. Clearly these women only groups can't be changing the culture of FOSS, nor for that matter can they be getting more women involved in FOSS (we're told repeatedly that women are put off by FOSS culture and won't get involved, or leave, because of it). They can't possibly be making any difference, because once again we are being told that the percentage of women in FOSS is woefully tiny, and that women are [still] being turned off and away, and the major reason for this is the general culture of FOSS, which is blokey, and generally sleazy. Yet once again the call has gone out for the formation of more womens only groups, as [this time] such groups will be the salvation of FOSS culture, they'll make the sleazy blokes rethink how they interact with women, and other people within FOSS, in general. I don't for the life of me see how this works, as clearly it hasn't in the past. If it had, there would be no need to once again stare into the wasteland that is apparently FOSS culture, and pronounce it horrid. So given that it is so bad, and we've been building womens only groups for several years now, apparently without it making one iota of difference, to the general culture of FOSS, which we are told is horridly sexist, how in the world is it going to work in the future? |
| jdixon Sep 21, 2009 9:48 AM EDT |
> If there is indeed rampant sexism in FOSS... It's not rampant. But it does exist. The problem has both depth (in that it is deeply embedded in places) and breadth (in that it is widespread). But conversely, it's also a small minority of the population which causes the problem. It's not an easy problem to solve, any more than it was (and to a certain extent, still is) in engineering. |
| theBeez Sep 21, 2009 12:30 PM EDT |
@tracyanne
> Yet once again the call has gone out for the formation of more womens only groups, as [this time] such groups
> will be the salvation of FOSS culture, they'll make the sleazy blokes rethink how they interact with women, and
> other people within FOSS, in general. I see the same problem and the FOSS polls report (which seems to have caused this all) seems the same problem. Of the tiny minority of women that participate in FOSS, an even tinier percentage is actually coding. Most are participating in making documentation, bugreports, sounds, graphics and the lot. If you really want to start a "womens only" club, you have to have a significant number of people who actually code. It would be most interesting to see what would happen. The documentation of most FOSS projects is abysmal ("the code is clear enough, we got a man page and then there is the forum"). I'm disappointed in the report that it gives women so few pointers in which they can make their participation larger themselves, I agree with you on that. Hans Bezemer |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 21, 2009 1:24 PM EDT |
> But conversely, it's also a small minority of the population which causes the problem. Agreed. How to tell that small minority to move on? I don't have that answer, so I myself move on and try to provide a good example. |
| tracyanne Sep 21, 2009 5:07 PM EDT |
Quoting:It's not rampant. But it does exist.. The problem has both depth (in that it is deeply embedded in places) and breadth.(in that it is widespread). But conversely, it's also a small minority of the population which causes the problem. That could as easily be a description of society in general, does anyone find that surprising? On the other hand if it is small minorities, than those minorities can be weeded out. All it takes is some backbone on the part of project leaders and Forum moderators, unless it's the Project leaders and Forum moderators who are the problem. I'd suggest that rather than building lots of walled gardens, ghettos, that the non sleaze bags among us actively encourage women to join their projects, and jump on any member of their project who proves to to be a sleaze bag. But I think that the biggest contributing factor to the low numbers o women contributing to FOSS has nothing to do with sexism or sleazy behaviour among a minority. My opinion is that women are not flocking in droves to contribute to FOSS because FOSS is flying beneath their radar, as it flies beneath most people's radar. The problem is marketing. I know blokes that could contribute, but don't, they don't because they think it's all about coding, and they aren't coders. |
| theBeez Sep 22, 2009 2:38 AM EDT |
@tracyanne
I agree with you in that projectleaders and Forum moderators are part of the solution, but life is sometimes not that easy. What if the guy in question is a major force within a project? Would you kick 'em out and hamper or endanger the project? What if the guy in question IS the projectleader? An ethical dilemma. Would you quit using the USB subsystem if (for example) you would find out the projectleader is doesn't behave properly? And if, would it make any difference? Most people know about MS business practices, but keep on using Windows. People happily buy (cheap) articles although it was child labor in 3rd world countries that produced them. Still, I also would agree there that minimizing and marginalizing certain people would diminish the problem. I'd like to add that - like many major projects - I would not restrict it to sexist remarks, but conduct in general. Also outside the community. Hans Bezemer |
| tracyanne Sep 22, 2009 4:17 AM EDT |
Hans I don't think the problem is simple or that it can be solved simply. on the other hand I don't think it's as bad or as widespread as some would have it. But more importantly I don't see walled gardens, ghettos, as the way to bring about change, if indeed the problem is as bad as the walled garden proponents claim.Quoting:An ethical dilemma. Would you quit using the USB subsystem if (for example) you would find out the projectleader is doesn't behave properly? The only person it would make any difference to would be me, by inconveniencing me. We're talking about Free Open Source Software here. FOSS projects can continue for ever with only the developers using the software. Not that my boycotting Proprietary Software has actually made any difference ether. Microsoft continues to create pretend security, even though I refuse to buy their product, Symantic still makes it's products that provide windows users with dubuious security, even though I never use their products. Nor has it made any difference to Nike that I refuse to buy their products, or MacDonalds, or any other Product I don't buy for various reasons. I don't see it as a dilemma, I'd carry on using it. I might encourage someone capable of doing so to Fork the project, if it looked practical to do so. But the reality of the situation is that I'm not about to make my computer unusable on principle. |
| TxtEdMacs Sep 22, 2009 11:54 AM EDT |
TheBeez, All conjecture, where are your statistics? Apply the same criteria to yourself as you demand of others, until then a bit a silence would be more appropriate. YBT |
| theBeez Sep 22, 2009 12:19 PM EDT |
@TxtEdMacs
I'm so very happy that you're trying to help me here. Exactly what statistics do you want? In short, what is the hypothesis you want me to test? So, which set of questions would be needed in order to get some data that would validate or invalidate that hypothesis? Furthermore, what kind of interest group do you want to target (selection)? How are we going to select those people? How large is this group (population size)? What is the confidence level you want to apply? What the confidence interval required? What anomalies need to be corrected? How are we to correct these anomalies? Come back when you have the answer. Hans Bezemer |
| azerthoth Sep 22, 2009 3:24 PM EDT |
/me hands out whips to the monkeys and points them at the carrion equine. |
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