I really dont get it. :-?
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| Microbiologist Sep 16, 2009 1:52 PM EDT |
Isnt software development a gender neutral issue? Eventually this issue will die down without any actual effect except wastage of time and bandwidth. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 16, 2009 2:12 PM EDT |
Someone got offended because they think that Tux is male. Fact is, it's almost impossible to tell the gender of a penguin unless you see them lay the egg. |
| tuxchick Sep 16, 2009 2:54 PM EDT |
Reading articles before commenting often helps prevent looking like idiots who comment without reading articles. |
| hkwint Sep 16, 2009 3:54 PM EDT |
Well, I did read the article, and here's something I'd like to ask (all of it is violating TOS because in essence this is a political issue, but anyway, let's try:) Do you think Dutch physics students are sexist? I'm asking because only 3% of them are female. Do you think Dutch psychology students are sexist? I'm asking because only ~6% of them are male. At least the figures above were true for my university in 2003, I've been to colleges of both of them. It doesn't always have to be sexism. Something to do with interest and culture, but probably more how certain 'professions' are looked at by students. Because of the low number of female physicists in my country, there are no role models. If some girl goes to a physics laboratory, she'll see only males. If she visits the open door day at the university, the ones giving her a guided tour will 90% certain be male also. Why are these numbers different abroad? I believe in countries such as Lithuania, Poland and the US about 20% or more of the physics students are female. Is that because the guys over there are not as sexist as in my country? Well, I can assure you that's not the case. Maybe even the other way around. That's why they (government, universities, non-profits and the like) decided female role models should help "recruiting". That really seems to be working. They're mentoring pupils in secondary schools, and the girls / woman (age about 16/17) say it really makes a difference. Numbers also prove this. Another important factor are the parents (maybe the most important reason why women in my country won't do IT-studies / physics), but that's a whole different discussion. But it's important to note, because when it comes to maths or medicines, suddenly more than 30% of the students are female; and it seems the parents are heavily involved in these choices. Pointing to 'sexism' is not going to explain this, because the guys over there are just as sexist as the guys studying physics (basically, those guys are almost the same - at least from what I experienced). So what we basically need is a female RMS / ESR / whatever. If there were female prominent hackers (I can only think of two right now, and I only remember their surnames), and if they were more visible, things might be different. But not all hackers want to be visible and recruit new developers. The problem is also that 'recruiting' for FOSS is normally something done not by professionals, which is also a hurdle. So what I wonder is this: Certainly, FOSS suffers from some sexist 'role models' from time to time. But is that the most important issue why women are hesitant to start developing FOSS-software? One could also argue women are more greedy than man, and that's why they'd rather develop proprietary software. I'm not saying that it's a better argument, but it could be theoretically valid, just as much as sexism could be the cause. On the other hand, sexist remarks are also not corrected because of a lack of female developers I suggest. I'm pretty sure RMS would not have made such remarks when he had to give college to an audience of psychology students in my country. The result is the chicken and egg discussion: Before there will be more role models who are willing to recruit more women, and before there will be more women correcting this kind of behaviour, more women in FOSS are needed. I really wonder if tomorrow all sexism in FOSS was gone, there would all the suddenly be lots more female FOSS developers. I guess not, I'm afraid more is needed to reach that. So I guess given the efforts needed to change the number of female developers, this issue will not die down quickly. |
| softwarejanitor Sep 16, 2009 5:00 PM EDT |
I tried to post before but I either got censored or I didn't post it right... Dunno which.... Anyway... This is just my observation... I've worked with several female programmers in the past and one reason I would suspect that there are fewer FOSS developers that are female (1.5%) as compared to "commercial" (28%) is that there seem to be fewer that are "hobbiests". The female developers I've worked with all seemed to be in it as a job, for the money. Sure, they liked computers well enough and they were in most cases quite competent, but it wasn't a hobby to them as well. What I mean by that is I didn't ever hear about one of them writing any software other than for work or for classwork. Most of them had other interests, or were probably just too busy. I know its a horrible stereotype, but almost all of them were married and had kids, and I suspect that took up a lot of what might have been free time. A lot of the males I know of who are FOSS developers are either gay or unmarried men. That's an unfair stereotype too of course because a lot of prominent FOSS developers like Linus are married with children too. |
| tuxchick Sep 16, 2009 5:07 PM EDT |
Quoting: I really wonder if tomorrow all sexism in FOSS was gone, there would all the suddenly be lots more female FOSS developers. I guess not, I'm afraid more is needed to reach that. Are you kidding me? Why don't you visit some forums, lists, and IRC channels with a woman's name, and tell me how long you want to hang around. Women need a hundred-times thicker hide than men to make it in most FOSS communities. The only reason I stuck around is because I am perverse and enjoy sticking it to the creeps who tried to run me out. And because Linux and FOSS are so cool I wasn't going to let herds of jerks deprive me of them. You are right that there are all kinds of reasons why a particular field is heavily-skewed towards men or women. FOSS is nearly unique in its dearth of women, I think sperm donor is the only field that has even fewer women. (OK that's an exaggeration, but not all that much of one.) Forgive me Hans, but the last thing we need is female RMS/ESR, unless you mean someone with their stature and celebrity, and with good personalities instead of ewie :). You are right that highly-visible role models are important, which is the reason I stick my face everywhere I can and encourage other women to do the same. It's not comfortable being out here with a big fat bullseye on my forehead, but when I hear someone say "You helped me be brave and go for it" I know it's helping. I'm writing a series on this for Linux Today starting this Friday. Be there or be square. |
| caitlyn Sep 16, 2009 5:11 PM EDT |
Quoting:Isnt software development a gender neutral issue? Let me guess: 1> either you are male and blind to the issue, or 2> you never bothered to observe how women are treated in the FOSS community. tuxhcick is spot on. So is the article, which, I might point out, is written by a man. Many men do see the problem and do get it. As the author points out, there is a culture of denial in FOSS. The attempts at dismissal or denial happen every time this subject comes up. |
| gus3 Sep 16, 2009 5:13 PM EDT |
*thwap* |
| hkwint Sep 16, 2009 5:19 PM EDT |
Quoting:Why don't you visit some forums, lists, and IRC channels with a woman's name Well, I'd certainly like to, but the forums and lists where I am are not populated by any women AFAIK I'm afraid. So I guess you're right because you've been to forums. The problem is probably one says things in forums / IRC / lists one wouldn't have said to someone in their face. Sexist things, but also lots of other childish behaviour. I've seen lots of the latter (the first not, because there simply were no females) which probably wouldn't have been said if it was mano-a-mano. Quoting:the last thing we need is female RMS/ESR Oh yeah, I forgot, the shortage of decent role models in FOSS isn't limited to women only. |
| tracyanne Sep 16, 2009 5:25 PM EDT |
Personally the only places I've ever felt unwelcome was the Ubuntu forums and LinuxAus, and I'm almost certain it wasn't about me being female, but rather about an unpopular subject, one of Ken's projects. I've never posted on the Ubuntu forums, or LinuxAus, since, if they are that unreceptive to good ideas, then I want nothing to do with them. Personally I've never noticed anything that upset me, from the perspective of the current thread. Maybe after my life experiences my hide so damn thick it just washes over me. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 16, 2009 5:31 PM EDT |
> visit some forums, lists, and IRC channels with a woman's name No way, for the same reason I wouldn't put a female name in a phone book. > Linux and FOSS are so cool I wasn't going to let herds of jerks deprive me of them. There's a good reason why insurance rates for young males is astronomical: testosterone poisoning. It takes years for males to get over being obnoxious jerks, and many never do. It's also been my experience that females tend to be psychotic control freaks. What's truly amazing is that biology overcomes all of that to make the next generation possible. Getting on with things, I don't know all that many female programmers. Nature or nurture? That's hardly a political argument. |
| caitlyn Sep 16, 2009 5:36 PM EDT |
When I worked for Lockheed-Martin, a company that has no tolerance for sexism or racism or religious intolerance or other such forms of prejudice the extremely large systems administration team supporting the government agency I supported was 40% female. When I worked in places where sexism and other forms of prejudice were laughed off or tolerated or dismissed the number was much, much smaller. In one case where an overtly sexist male was promoted into a leadership position all the women on the team (five of us) gave notice and left within two or three weeks. Management had their excuses but did nothing to stop it. There is an old Yiddish expression: "A fish rots from the head." If the culture and the leadership insists on equality and doesn't tolerate discrimination it is absolutely amazing what can be achieved. |
| beirwin Sep 16, 2009 5:48 PM EDT |
I think this topic will continue to be be written about until there is more of a balance of females to males in the FOSS world. The FOSS community ignores this problem at their peril. It does feel a little intimidating at first to attend a LUG meeting with a preponderance of young, male geeks -- I know -- I've been there & done it (an older, female who could have been their mother!) but perservered because, like Carla said FOSS is cool. My local LUG is very good about welcoming everyone. As previous posters said there are probably a number of reasons for the low participation rate of women in the FOSS world. One that was briefly mentioned was the fact that women with children don't have a lot of free time particularly if they are working for pay. Women are the primary care givers of the children and elderly relatives - we need more of a balance here, too. That doesn't leave much time out of the day for getting involved in the FOSS community (unless you don't need sleep). I also think that rude, loud-mouth behaviour towards newbies and others wanting to join our community isn't just a turn-off for women -- there are men and people in other cultures that don't like this aggressive, boorish behaviour either, and are turned off by it. So, we have to continue with this discussion, figure out ways to encourage more women and others into our ranks, and demonstrate by our actions (and our posts to various forums) that we are welcoming to everyone into our FOSS Tent. Carla, thanks for "being out there". I've loved your blogs, articles, and your dedication to spreading the word about Linux and FOSS. I'm looking forward to reading your upcoming series on this topic. I'll probably want to add this series to my "Advocacy" section on my Loads of Linux Links website (so I'm hoping there will be one URL for the entire series! :-) ) |
| tuxchick Sep 16, 2009 6:22 PM EDT |
beirwin, LinuxLinks is awesome, you might have noticed how often LL pieces appear on Linux Today :). And yes, there is an overabundance of boorish behavior of all kinds in FOSS, and it's worse online because it's easier to get away with it. Quoting: Oh yeah, I forgot, the shortage of decent role models in FOSS isn't limited to women only. LOL! Too true. |
| beirwin Sep 16, 2009 11:46 PM EDT |
Carla said: "beirwin, LinuxLinks is awesome, you might have noticed how often LL pieces appear on Linux Today :)." I can't take credit for LinuxLinks (yes, it's a great resource and have noticed how often you link the best apps. articles on LT - very helpful). I work on another great project called Loads of Linux Links hosted at SourceForge - note the tooting of my horn here -- I've been told females don't do enough of that! :-) |
| hkwint Sep 17, 2009 4:00 AM EDT |
Quoting:When I worked in places where sexism and other forms of prejudice were laughed off or tolerated or dismissed the number was much, much smaller. Thanks Caitlyn, that was what I was wondering. So apparently I'm underestimating the influence of sexism. Maybe because women were already scared away before I arrived at some forums etc. And if there are no women, no sexist remarks can be made at/about them. Also, from my own experience, I and my fellow colleagues were always correct to the small minority of women, but it didn't lead to more women joining. So to me it may seem being correct doesn't help much. But if women can tell me from experience it does, I'll be the first to believe so. It's not only sexism that should not be tolerated, some 'social code of conduct' should also include replying to each other in a polite way in my opinion. If there are some 'rude' people in some certain group, they not only drive away women but also some men who might be willing to participate / contribute if the tone of the discussion was different. The shy / polite people don't come back, and the 'rude' / shouting people stay, which is a status quo and nothing changes. ed: Maybe put it in the "social contract", if the project has any? |
| Sander_Marechal Sep 17, 2009 7:51 AM EDT |
Quoting:Are you kidding me? Why don't you visit some forums, lists, and IRC channels with a woman's name, and tell me how long you want to hang around. I don't want to sound creepy, but I do that fairly regularly. Whenever I screw something up in my account (which happens a lot since I am always fiddling with my account, especially the window manager scripts -- and when they break my account usually becomes useless) I use my girlfriend's account to go on IRC and get help. Her (user)name is Charlotte so it's very recognizably female. I have never gotten a single negative remark, or any remark at all about my (supposed) gender. Edit: Places I usually visit under my girlfriend's account are #debian, #gnome, #lua, #awesome and other IRC channels. |
| gus3 Sep 17, 2009 8:02 AM EDT |
@Sander: Not even an A/S/L request? Perhaps you should just set up an alternate, "safe" login so you can "su sander" and recover. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 17, 2009 8:35 AM EDT |
> an A/S/L request? Ok, the L isn't making sense to me, "Age, Sex, Language"? You'll have to forgive me, I'm a dinosaur. I don't even "high five". |
| Sander_Marechal Sep 17, 2009 9:34 AM EDT |
gus3: Nope, not even A/S/L. Perhaps my attitude matters though. When I go on IRC as Charlotte I have a problem, so I come in the channel, explain my problem and start asking technical questions. I'm not just chatting for the fun of it. I'm trying to solve my problem. @Bob: L stands for "Location". |
| jacog Sep 17, 2009 9:46 AM EDT |
So ASL is not Atomic Secured Linux? Damn... no wonder the ladies in the chat rooms don't want to speak with me. |
| tuxchick Sep 17, 2009 10:08 AM EDT |
Sander, I guess that means all of us real women who have gotten all kinds of crap dumped on us are fibbing, some kind of hysterical need for attention or something. Or Charlotte has a rep and nobody messes with her. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 17, 2009 10:25 AM EDT |
> "Location" Ah, duh, I had heard that a few years ago, thank you. Completely spaced it out. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 17, 2009 10:48 AM EDT |
> "Location" Ah, duh, I had heard that a few years ago, thank you. Completely spaced it out. Edit: Oh, right, it was one of Stef Murkey's songs on UserFriendly.org > are fibbing, some kind of hysterical need for attention or something. As far as I can tell, Sander was writing of his experience, no one else's. |
| Sander_Marechal Sep 17, 2009 11:41 AM EDT |
Quoting:all of us real women [...] are fibbing, some kind of hysterical need for attention or something. Your words, not mine. I don't know why I haven't gotten a single gender related remark when on IRC with my girlfriends account. It's not rep because she has none. |
| bigg Sep 17, 2009 12:05 PM EDT |
That's not exactly a scientific way to do such an experiment. (Not that you are claiming it is.) You are asking technical questions and are only dealing with others for one specific task. One nice thing about the internet is that you can see what happens to others. I have no doubt that I've witnessed sexism in some exchanges. Not the explicit "you're a woman so go home and cook dinner" but some individuals do have different styles when dealing with women vs. men. In a different context, I remember reading a column about the basics of grilling written by a woman, and a lot of the comments pointed out mistakes and said women should not be writing about grilling. |
| Sander_Marechal Sep 17, 2009 12:40 PM EDT |
@bigg: I don't visit a large number of websites regularly. LXer, GameDev.net, StackOverflow (and sisters) and Groklaw. That's about it. Perhaps it's less of a problem on these specific sites. With Caitlyn, TuxChick and TracyAnne (and probably a bunch more) I'd say that women are well represented on LXer. At least among the regulars. And I'm sure the three of them can instill enough fear in other people to keep any rampart sexism at bay here ;-) Groklaw is lead by PJ of course and she has a zero-tolerance policy on that kind of stuff. I just happen to not hang out on websites like Digg or Slashdot where sexism is an issue. I've seen the problems on places like that of course but I hardly ever see it in the places I frequent. |
| bigg Sep 17, 2009 1:01 PM EDT |
> I just happen to not hang out on websites like Digg or Slashdot where sexism is an issue. Me either. It's not the sexism. It's the brain dead lack of common sense that's correlated with sexism that comes through on all issues that keeps me away from those sites. I wouldn't say I see sexism frequently, but I see it more than I should have to see it. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 17, 2009 1:25 PM EDT |
> It's the brain dead lack of common sense that's correlated with sexism that comes through on all issues that keeps me away from those sites. Sexism is a symptom. It's a reflection of stupidity, not a disease in of itself. What's that old saying, "Beauty is only skin deep, but ugly goes right to the core." An ugly person is ugly in many ways, not just one. |
| TxtEdMacs Sep 17, 2009 1:28 PM EDT |
Sander ..., Charlotte ... Hmmm. You do have a girlfriend, right? There seems to be some counter intuitive reporting going on here. Sander is Charlotte, but only some of the time, because he screws up his system routinely. [Likely story, for a successful computer consultant / programmer.] Charlotte, ah I mean Sander, you stand accused of gross dissembling while NOT claiming you are writing fiction, thus doing grievous harm to another LXer's tall tales. Since I am that other one being harmed, I demand compensation. At minimum you must stop creating stories of dubious merit, an activity I excel at, and promise hence forth to follow the straight and narrow path of societal propriety. If you agree there will be no need of financial settlement, fo me your word will suffice. However, I cannot completely disregard the limited possibility your tale may be factually based. Therefore, I will take upon the responsibility of clearing your name, if that is possible. Nonetheless, I require absolute proof and a DNA sample passing through too many hands will not suffice. So to clear your name I require your complete medical and travel records for the past ten years, as a cross check to be certain you did not patronize institutions that specialized in anatomical alterations. Should your records clear you of that hurdle, I will still need further evidence. I will need a private phone number where your purported girl friend and I can converse for extended periods without the threats of interruption or of being over heard. Finally, at my own expense - if there has been no chicanery, I will rendezvous with my love ... ah I mean yours. To perform my last exercise to cheerfully clear your name on LXer. I cannot tell you how happy I will be to do this service* for you. Your Buddy Txt. * Please tell me you do not cross dress. |
| tuxchick Sep 17, 2009 1:54 PM EDT |
The "I don't see it" response is common and predictable. It's like the "It works for me!" school of tech support, where something is broken and you call support, and they inform you that they don't have the same problem, or other users are not reporting the same problem, so perhaps it isn't really a problem. Yay, close ticket all happy now. As the article says, a culture of denial; don't think uncomfortable thoughts, just dismiss them. Anyone who is genuinely interested in the issue can find plenty of reading online, and might even attempt the bold step of being more observant in everyday life, and maybe even listening to some actual women. Though that will have limited effectiveness for folks who can't recognize their own sexist beliefs. It's partly true, as Bob said, that it's symptomatic of a larger stupidity. And it is completely true that it is widespread and a disease all its own. |
| tracyanne Sep 17, 2009 5:35 PM EDT |
Sexism, sexist remarks, stupid arrogance from the male gender, does happen. It has happened to me, but... never on a Linux board, and rarely on any other Computer/software related board, and when it has happened I have quickly gained a reputation for having better wittier comebacks that usually leave the perpetrator wishing they hadn't. The first time it happened was back in the late 90s on a Microsoft oriented Software board, I was trying to find out how to do some stuff with DDE, some jerk with a South American address (he published the city) suggested I fly on over so we could get together... you know what I mean. I've had death threats on social sites when I put the jerk down, and "paraded" him "naked" in front of everyone. About 3 I think.... I'm still here waiting. To some extent the put down, "you need to grow a tougher skin" is good advice. That is pretty much the rational behind "Take back the streets". But there is also a very real social expectation that women.. girls not be pushy (and that in itself is such a sexist concept, as boys are not considered pushy, but instead assertive). Unfortunately, in order to get a culture that isn't sexist, that has a good gender balance, we do need to be assertive, and learn to deal with jerks on terms that make jerks think twice before they treat us to some more of their jerkiness . It's not easy, I know, but on the other hand this is the Internet, and the other person isn't actually sitting in your living room. |
| hkwint Sep 17, 2009 6:50 PM EDT |
Quoting:As the article says, a culture of denial; don't think uncomfortable thoughts, just dismiss them. If one just never saw a blue car, it doesn't mean one denies or dismisses their existence. That would be putting words at least in my mouth (because I'm one of those not having seen sexist remarks in the forums I visit). |
| tuxchick Sep 17, 2009 8:17 PM EDT |
And some are oblivious to the blue car until it runs over them. |
| Microbiologist Sep 18, 2009 10:14 AM EDT |
I am not blind to sexism. I have seen it in different spheres. Those behind the sexism are an equal ratio of women and men (no sexism there!). It is good if u highlight valid incidents of sexism, but many cases i hav been reading lately are probably misinterpreted facts, especially the discussion over Stallman's statements. Just as sexism does no good, militant anti-sexism does no good either. The direct attacks on RMS are obviously counter-productive. It is imperative that the anti-sexism lobby validate their claims and suggest solutions rather than just shout out accusations. |
| KernelShepard Sep 18, 2009 10:43 AM EDT |
Microbiologist: Wouldn't the "solution" simply be not to make sexist jokes? Not to use pornographic material in your slides for your FLOSS presentation? And not to insult women saying that women are inherently inferior to men wrt computing on public mailing-lists? I mean, this isn't rocket science (although I *do* have a degree in that ;-) |
| tuxchick Sep 18, 2009 10:58 AM EDT |
Microbiologist, anyone who is genuinely interested about the issue and doesn't just want to hand-wave it away will find plenty of material already available: analyses of the issues, plenty of real-life horror stories, and plenty of ideas for how to fix it. Maybe the real problem is militant dishonesty. Like ignoring the entire rest of the article that is not about RMS. Bruce's article contains a good bit of information and should have you thinking instead of dismissing. BTW, what validation are you offering for your claims? Yes I'm cheesed, this thread has a lot of the same junk we've been dealing with since forever. Let's make a deal-- all of you who are not really interested in this problem, who are so uncomfortable with it that you are unwilling to face it, just keep out of the way of the folks who are trying to do something about it. "I don't see it!" So what? Who cares? We live it. It's painful and obnoxious. It's like you're saying that you know our own experiences better than we do. This speaks to two core and important issues: the health of FOSS, and even more important, basic decency to other people. Try listening and thinking. Don't talk, because it's like hearing Microsoft reps yakking how secure Windows is. It doesn't fool anyone who knows better. Yeah I know, I'm not being nice. Girls are supposed to be nice. Sorry!* *Not really sorry. |
| jdixon Sep 18, 2009 2:47 PM EDT |
> Anyone who is genuinely interested in the issue can find plenty of reading online... Of course, many men not being interested in the issue is part of the problem. :( |
| tuxchick Sep 18, 2009 4:25 PM EDT |
Looks to me like there is plenty of interest. Just not in taking it seriously. Everyone has to pick their own battles and I don't expect everyone to hop up and down and take up arms on the issue of sexism in FOSS. "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" is good enough. |
| jdixon Sep 18, 2009 6:41 PM EDT |
> "Lead, follow, or get out of the way" is good enough.. I try to stay out of the way, since as far as I can tell what you're fighting is an innate human characteristic, and I've never seen the point in fighting human nature. |
| caitlyn Sep 18, 2009 8:34 PM EDT |
Quoting:Looks to me like there is plenty of interest. Just not in taking it seriously. I think many of those who deny that sexism exists or react negatively to articles like this do take it seriously. They see feminism or broader equality as a threat. Either they are afraid they are somehow going to be excluded or discriminated against or else they are going to have more competition. It's a form of insecurity that manifests itself as lashing out against those who write things like what Bruce Byfield wrote in the article. |
| azerthoth Sep 19, 2009 1:48 AM EDT |
The trick is, and this seems to work well with our project, is not to make a special exception for the out of the ordinary, but to accept it at face value and move on. The second step is to take anyone who is intolerant, let them know that they are free to feel what they want, but they minute they start spouting their particular prejudice they will be made most unwelcome and/or forcibly ejected from the conversations. It's a healthy attitude and a positive one, it's not that we don't want people helping or enjoying or project, but if you are intolerant, we are perfectly fine with telling someone we don't particularly want or need them. |
| caitlyn Sep 19, 2009 2:11 AM EDT |
jdixon made some interesting points worth discussing:Quoting:Of course, many men not being interested in the issue is part of the problem. :( Agreed. I'd add that women who are disinterested are also part of the problem. Change doesn't happen on its own. Quoting:I try to stay out of the way, since as far as I can tell what you're fighting is an innate human characteristic, and I've never seen the point in fighting human nature. I'm sure the same could be said of any intolerance to someone who is different in some way. The fact is that in terms of racism, women's rights, and the rights of all sorts of minorities that, at least in the United States, there has been huge and measurable progress in all of these areas. 100 years ago women didn't have the right to vote. 60 years ago a woman couldn't get credit in their own name and discrimination in hiring was not only legal, it was expected and the norm. There has been huge progress in IT as well. FOSS is sadly far behind the rest of IT which was Bruce Byfield's main point. When I lived in San Francisco I got to hear Dr. Moira Gunn speak at a Webgrrls chapter meeting back in 1997 or so. She talked about what she was up against as a female physicist who received her PhD in 1970 and then went to work on national defense projects. It not only demonstrated how far we have come but also how much we can overcome if we work hard enough and have the ability. It was one of the most inspirational talks I have ever heard. Human nature or not each and every one of us can make a difference. The problems may not be solved in our lifetimes or ever. Things can get better and each and every one of us can make a difference if we choose to regardless of our gender. |
| gus3 Sep 19, 2009 11:31 AM EDT |
FWIW: The OhioLinuxFest next weekend will include a workshop on Diversity In Open Source: http://www.ohiolinux.org/dios |
| Microbiologist Sep 19, 2009 11:50 AM EDT |
Say what?
Carla schroeder's article is exactly what i wanted to see. I am happy to have been enlightened by it. It is not possible to treat both sexes identically, u cant talk the same way to a man that u talk to a woman. But equal credit should be given for equal contribution. And it is important that plain indecency and wilful suppression of human rights be dealt with separately, and not be clubbed together. The latter is far more serious and requires a different solution than the former. Most men in an environment with male majority are prone to use obscene language and potentially offensive comparisons, whereas not all consciously contrive to suppress female involvement in that sphere. The real perpetrators gain a shield if their wrongdoings are clubbed with the general offenses of the majority. I, for one believe that comparisons in any field not related to internal plumbing, should depend only on the skill level in that field, nothing else. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 19, 2009 3:23 PM EDT |
> Most men in an environment with male majority are prone to use obscene language and potentially offensive comparisons, A situation in which I am glad to be one of the minority. One of the Linux podcast shows, out of England, is so laced with profanity that I didn't even finish one show. Bah. A telling lack of vocabulary. |
| gus3 Sep 19, 2009 3:31 PM EDT |
Quoting:A telling lack of vocabulary.Yes. How many of us have heard of someone who could insult you for an entire half-hour, and never use the same insult twice? |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 19, 2009 3:38 PM EDT |
"Yes. How many of us have heard of someone who could insult you for an entire half-hour, and never use the same insult twice?" I recall that the drill seargent used as the source for "Full Metal Jacket" was recorded for 20 minutes of "verbal private abuse" without repeating himself. Sadly, my vocabulary is no where near that extensive. I tend to find the one word that sums up what I think of someone's actions, attitudes or whatever, then use it. One of the people in a half-hour project meeting back in 2002 used the words "you know" 132 times, and that's leaving out when he used them correctly in a sentence. Just the, you know, asides. An otherwise highly educated and intelligent person, but impossible to listen to without serious frustration. |
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