When the wine is in the man, the wisdom is in the can
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| Author | Content |
|---|---|
| paai Sep 07, 2009 12:11 PM EDT |
This is a translation of a dutch proverb. My message is that wine does not live up to its promises. I am a linux user from 1992 onwards and of course I tried many, many times to run Windows applications in wine. Very few applications run without major problems. Wine is around for... I don't know, ten years? In that time it has not come anywhere near maturing. It promises a lot, but it does not deliver. Let us be honest and scrap it. |
| azerthoth Sep 07, 2009 12:19 PM EDT |
Wine has been around for 15 years, and delivers rather more than say the KDE devs. With the exceptions of a few pieces of software that were written specifically so that they would not work with wine, just about everything else I have tried does. Lets be honest here, your post is more of an axe to grind than usability. |
| viator Sep 07, 2009 1:16 PM EDT |
There are a few problems with wine.... The most important one in my opinion is it leads people to say "you can run windows apps in linux" which in turn leads them to think linux is "windows compatible" then when something doesnt work they say "linux sucks" I tell people you can NOT run windows apps in linux then if they are able to under wine they say wow i was able to run a windows app! There ought to be more integration with wine if a windows .exe is downloaded and a user tries to execute it the distro should KNOW its an windows executable and say "this is a windows application we can try to run it with wine would you like to install wine now?" And the package manager should install wine and integrate it so that win apps seem native. IF the app fails to run or run correctly for any reason full details should automaticly be reported to the wine devs so they can fix the bugs that are most prevlant first. There are alot of bugs and yes ALOT of apps dont work at all or are very buggy. The wine devs have been working hard and lets not forget that they have a moving target to deal with microsoft can make it so things dont work with updates etc. |
| bigg Sep 07, 2009 1:29 PM EDT |
Funny to read this criticism of Wine. Wine works great for me when I need it. Just the other day a coworker had an app that kept crashing in Windows. He was going nuts. I have the same app installed in Wine, ran the tasks that he was running, and it ran flawlessly over and over again, without a single crash. |
| Bob_Robertson Sep 07, 2009 2:51 PM EDT |
WINE certainly does not work for everything, so if it's all that important that's what VirtualBox is for. When WINE is the answer, it's an excellent answer. As Bigg points out, when it works it's reliable and fast. It doesn't require huge resources, and as one more tool in the toolbox I'm happy to have it. IF Microsoft didn't make Windows into a deliberately obfuscated moving-target, WINE would be in better shape. Such is life. |
| jdixon Sep 07, 2009 4:43 PM EDT |
> Wine works great for me when I need it. For most home users, Wine needs to run Windows games. At that, in my experience, it's hit or miss at best. :( From what I've heard and seen, for business use Wine (especially the Crossover versions), works much, much better. |
| bigg Sep 07, 2009 5:00 PM EDT |
> For most home users, Wine needs to run Windows games. At that, in my experience, it's hit or miss at best. :( That's definitely true. I should also say I don't run very many apps with Wine. |
| tracyanne Sep 07, 2009 5:21 PM EDT |
Lets not forget that WINE also introduces Windows security to Linux. |
| dinotrac Sep 07, 2009 6:11 PM EDT |
tracyanne -- It is my sincere hope that the underlying security of Linux can withstand a little WINE. |
| TxtEdMacs Sep 07, 2009 6:57 PM EDT |
Come on dino, like your namesake most humans could not survive just ingesting your spill volume. Moreover, we are familiar with two other facts: 1.) despite your propensity for tipsiness you lose very little 2.) you prefer stronger stuff than just Wine. YBT |
| dinotrac Sep 07, 2009 7:38 PM EDT |
Scotch man, myself.
That and Dos Equis Amber. Simple tastes for a simple man. |
| azerthoth Sep 07, 2009 7:53 PM EDT |
Depends on the Scotch, I get very particular about that. |
| dinotrac Sep 07, 2009 8:16 PM EDT |
I'm pretty easy, so long as it's unblended and no younger than my teenager. |
| jacog Sep 08, 2009 3:57 AM EDT |
ta - this document is worth a look if you are worried about security + wine http://media.codeweavers.com/pub/crossover/case_studies/Wine... |
| tracyanne Sep 08, 2009 4:13 AM EDT |
@jacog, interesting |
| paai Sep 08, 2009 4:46 PM EDT |
Azerthoth and all others: I have no axe to grind. What would be the use? I would like to run my favorite Windows apps as much as anyone else without the overhead of VMware or other VM's. So every few months I fire up Wine and try. Immediatly fonts go wild all over the place, 'minor' flaws like drop down menus that don't work appear and so on. Now, perhaps if I tie myself and the operating system in different knots for every single Windows application, some of them *may* work, but then again, after houurs of fiddling, they don't. Tell me I can play CIV2 under Wine, or PG2, and I am sold. Jeez! Tell me I can fire up Notepad without weird fonts or misbehaving menus and I would be willing to spend some more time with Wine. Till that time, accept that after fifteen years it is not ready for prime time and there is no hope that it will ever be. Paai |
| tracyanne Sep 08, 2009 4:56 PM EDT |
@paai, I can't tell you that, I have no favourite windows programs, I don't use WINE as a rule, and when I do it's only to see if there is a way around some artificial restriction (like not bothering to support Linux) on using Linux with peripherals, like the TomTom. The applications have worked fine, the fonts even look fine, and the menus all work properly. The only problem I've had are accessing the peripheral itself. On the few occasions I've seen WINE being used it's usually with something like Crossover to control the settings, and the applications seemed to work properly and the same as on Windows. Sorry can't help you. |
| bigg Sep 08, 2009 6:23 PM EDT |
> Tell me I can play CIV2 under Wine, or PG2, and I am sold. That gets back to the issue of games mentioned above. I agree that it doesn't work well for gamers, but keep in mind when you suggest scrapping the project that computers can be used for other things, like work. There is most definitely room for improvement in your particular area of interest. |
| gus3 Sep 08, 2009 7:29 PM EDT |
Quoting:computers can be used for other things, like work.Bite. Your. Tongue. |
| helios Sep 08, 2009 7:35 PM EDT |
Let me tell you what I did. Two months ago, I installed a computer for twin boys...age 11. They are both math prodigies and we got word of them through CPS. At 13, if their development continues at this pace, they will enter college at 15. They live with a foster family...only surviving members of a family killed in an auto accident when they were 4. A week after I had installed the computer, I got a call from their "older brother", their 17 year old step-brother I guess you would call him. He asked me where all the games were and I told him the only games I put on the computer were World of Goo and some breakout games. The rest of the computer was dedicated to Scientific Linux and the rest of the normal apps. He howled like I had jabbed him with a hot poker. He wanted me to come over and install Windows on the computer because he said the computer was useless "to him". I explained that the computer was not meant for him and ended the phone call. Later that evening I "dropped by" to see how things were going. We make two week, one month, three month, six month and 1 annual visit to our recipeints. When I entered the home, Michael, one of the twins (I can't tell them apart) was on the computer and Marshall was reading a book. Greg, the 17 year old was on a laptop on the couch as Mrs. FosterMom and I talked. I looked over at the kid on the couch playing some shooter game. And asked him if he wanted the url to one of the best gamesites in the business. He jumped up and said "YEAH!" I emailed him later that evening and made good my promise. I sent him to astalavista.box.sk. Without virus protection or some kind of malware agent, about 60 percent of Internet explorer browsers lock dead up...takes an act of congress or sometimes an entire drive wipe to fix it. Spoke with Michael about two weeks later and he made mention after I asked,. that Greg hadn't been able to use his laptop for a long time...something about viruses and popups..... Game on. I tell people that if they want to game, get a console...computers are meant to work and produce...Games are a luxury...or so believes I. Then again, I do have Penumbra and World Of Goo installed...hypocrite that I am h |
| flufferbeer Sep 08, 2009 8:43 PM EDT |
@jdixon,
I'd agree with tracyanne and bigg here.
Use wine only when you have to (work apps, Crossover, getting around those artificial restrictions, etc).
None of this gotta-have-this-game experimental stuff, which only leads to disappointments when the game in question doesn't work EXACTLY as expected in wine! I would certainly agree that it's best to prioritize the wine apps that have "room for improvement in your particular area of interest." Yep. Windows games where Micro$ucks blocks effective use of wine are much lower on my own priority list. Just 2c here. |
| jezuch Sep 09, 2009 2:20 AM EDT |
Quoting:Tell me I can play CIV2 under Wine No need. FreeCiv is your answer. |
| jdixon Sep 09, 2009 6:22 AM EDT |
> Use wine only when you have to (work apps, Crossover, getting around those artificial restrictions, etc).... Oh, I agree. It's just that my wife has a large number of old Windows games she'd love to be able to play under Linux, wo we test them out on occasion. So far, it's been hit or miss. Nowhere near enough have worked for her to nuke her Windows machine. :( Almost all of the games I play are old DOS games, which play fine in dosbox, though my machine is still a bit underpowered to run them at full speed. I only need a Windows machine for work compatibility, and that can be handled by a virtual machine. Again though, my machine is a bit underpowered for that. |
| jacog Sep 09, 2009 8:13 AM EDT |
jdixon: I too have games as a requirement... and I am NOT buying a console; games are too expensive for them. I play most of the PC games in XP. Most of the games I have works under Linux through either Crossover Games, Cedega, or plain Wine, but since my computer's spec is good-not-great, the performance hit is a bit too high for some of them to work as well as they should. The exception is World of Warcraft, which runs with no noticable performance hit under Linux. The only caveat is that the newly added real-time shadows effect does not work under Wine. It's a catch-22 though. Publishers will not publish native Linux games unless people buy Linux games, and people can't buy any Linux games if there aren't any. Independant ports exist, like ones done by Linux Game Publishing, but the prices are much too high for them to hope for any long term success. A fair chunk of the games they have on offer can be bought for less than half the price for Windows. I fell that if publishers were aware of Wine and treated Wine as a platform, they could produce Wine-friendly Windows games. There must be someone out there campaigning to them with figures. Not that I imagine that'll do any good. Places like EA can't even be convinced to drop their brain-dead SecuRom DRM bollocks that limits you to five installs in your lifetime. I thiiiiink there's a bit of hope though with the folks behind Steam. |
| hkwint Sep 09, 2009 8:44 AM EDT |
Is it just me? Or do more people think 'translating and reverse-engineering' at the pace of which hundreds of paid Microsoft-devs introduce new OS'es / technologies isn't possible by a team of volunteers? Anyway, for most 'older' Windows-programs (Euroglot 3 / Freecell6 - not the default Windows one but the one with the solver - most notably) Wine is OK. For Microsoft / Windows-tailored programs which make have use of .NET, VB, Excel and IE6 - such as AD Inventor - Wine is no solution. BTW: about Astalavista.box.sk: I have always been able to clean up when I was still using XP and pirated software. It takes some skill (read: The right proggies) to do so, but it's not that hard. Visiting the site using FF (or even better: Konqueror) running on Linux solves all those problems. But you shouldn't use pirated software, ahem. |
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